WEBVTT 00:00:11.339 --> 00:00:15.939 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:16.159 --> 00:00:16.799 My name is Wes. 00:00:16.959 --> 00:00:17.639 And my name is Brent. 00:00:18.339 --> 00:00:23.159 Hello, gentlemen. Coming up on the show today, it's been a full week of Berkeley 00:00:23.159 --> 00:00:24.399 suffering distribution. And 00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:28.659 today, it's our BSD challenge results as the challenge comes to a close. 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:31.519 We'll find out who survived the install, who made it to the desktop, 00:00:31.639 --> 00:00:37.159 and who had to learn the hard way that one tiny, innocent mistake could send 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:38.959 the whole BSD box straight into the void. 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:41.439 I don't know who that could have been. And then we'll round out the show with 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:44.479 your booths, your picks, and, you know, just a tiny bit more this week. 00:00:44.559 --> 00:00:47.039 Just a little bit more. Not too much more. We don't want to overdo it. 00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:50.599 So before we get there, let's say time-appropriate greetings to our virtual 00:00:50.599 --> 00:00:52.299 lug. Hello, Mumble Room. 00:00:54.979 --> 00:00:55.299 Hello. 00:00:55.839 --> 00:00:56.619 Hi, you guys. 00:01:01.239 --> 00:01:04.199 Thank you, guys. And shout out to you up there in quiet listening, 00:01:04.399 --> 00:01:08.059 too. It is fun. Big. You know, it feels like, I don't know. 00:01:08.299 --> 00:01:09.779 It's a milestone for the show, I think. 00:01:10.499 --> 00:01:13.479 Also, good morning to our friends over at Define Networking. 00:01:13.619 --> 00:01:17.699 Go meet Manage Nebula from Define Networking, Define.net slash unplugged. 00:01:17.759 --> 00:01:21.719 It's a decentralized VPN built on the open source Nebula platform that we love. 00:01:21.919 --> 00:01:24.659 And Nebula was engineered for scale and performance from day one. 00:01:24.839 --> 00:01:29.259 Very low CPU usage, minimal network overhead, and the kind of reliability that 00:01:29.259 --> 00:01:32.459 you actually control yourself. 00:01:32.819 --> 00:01:36.019 It's decentralized design, keeps your network resilient, whether you're running 00:01:36.019 --> 00:01:40.819 a home lab or connecting a global fleet, like the size of Slack itself. 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:44.799 There's also the option to self-host Lighthouse nodes so you can own critical 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:46.399 pieces of the network end-to-end. 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:50.619 It's fast, it's lightweight, secure, it's built to last, no big tech login required. 00:01:50.619 --> 00:01:56.239 You can get started for free 100 hosts, no credit card required at defined.net slash unplugged. 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:01.059 Go to defined.net slash unplugged and redefine your VPN experience and big shout 00:02:01.059 --> 00:02:03.899 out to Defined for supporting the Unplugged program. 00:02:04.019 --> 00:02:06.399 Defined.net slash unplugged. 00:02:08.227 --> 00:02:14.267 Texas Linux Fest 2026 Call for Papers is open. Wow. They're really ahead of it, aren't they? 00:02:14.387 --> 00:02:14.707 Mm-hmm. 00:02:15.247 --> 00:02:20.387 Yeah. So the deadline is June 1st, 2026, and then there will be one final deadline, 00:02:20.527 --> 00:02:22.587 July 1st. But put June 1st in your head. 00:02:22.727 --> 00:02:23.487 Yeah, get in early. 00:02:23.887 --> 00:02:26.287 We're going to try to make it. We don't really, of course, have this figured 00:02:26.287 --> 00:02:30.907 out yet, but November 6th through the 7th is when it's going, Texas Linux Fest. 00:02:31.127 --> 00:02:34.127 So stay tuned for more details and maybe go check out that CFP. 00:02:34.287 --> 00:02:37.007 I will say, as someone who presented last year, it was a great experience. 00:02:37.007 --> 00:02:40.287 great to work with the organizers very easy conference very friendly. 00:02:40.287 --> 00:02:42.287 Good solid community high signal great. 00:02:42.287 --> 00:02:43.407 Great place to give a tuck. 00:02:43.407 --> 00:02:45.827 Not a very big event but that's what i like about it. 00:02:45.827 --> 00:02:50.247 But a lot of people who are who are hungry nerdy linux folks who um want to learn more. 00:02:50.247 --> 00:02:56.527 Yeah also we did want to make you aware of dirty frag a new copy fail like vulnerability 00:02:56.527 --> 00:03:00.327 which we'll have details linked in the show notes but it's another one of these 00:03:00.327 --> 00:03:03.967 if you can get local access to the box, you can escalate privileges. 00:03:04.487 --> 00:03:07.547 And another page, cash abuse. So, you know. 00:03:07.687 --> 00:03:11.527 And there is a proof of concept in the wild, and the responsible disclosure 00:03:11.527 --> 00:03:14.547 schedule got breached, and so it's out before the patches are. 00:03:14.647 --> 00:03:15.527 There are some mitigations. 00:03:15.667 --> 00:03:18.627 We'll have those linked for some of the more commonly shared ones right now. 00:03:18.707 --> 00:03:23.927 And we also have more in-depth details in this week's bootleg edition of the Unplugged program. 00:03:24.447 --> 00:03:29.507 But before we get out of housekeeping, I have a personal question I want to 00:03:29.507 --> 00:03:31.427 ask the audience. So please boost in or email. 00:03:31.927 --> 00:03:35.747 How are you doing your home router? Specifically, those of you that are doing 00:03:35.747 --> 00:03:39.287 a Linux router for your home networking, I'm setting up something pretty cool 00:03:39.287 --> 00:03:44.647 at home that does involve using a Linux router to do failover between production 00:03:44.647 --> 00:03:46.547 network and backup internet connection. 00:03:46.967 --> 00:03:51.287 And I will tell you more about it. It's probably one of the projects I'm the 00:03:51.287 --> 00:03:52.867 most excited about in years. 00:03:53.007 --> 00:03:53.327 Me too. 00:03:53.467 --> 00:03:57.707 For my home network. Oh, Wes, I can't wait to get your input on it. It's in like the... 00:03:58.710 --> 00:04:04.170 I mean, it's past the design phase. It's bolted to the wall and secured inside a sealed box. 00:04:04.870 --> 00:04:07.910 This thing is production grade, and I'll tell you more about it. 00:04:08.310 --> 00:04:12.330 But the piece I'd like to get more insights on is how people are doing routing 00:04:12.330 --> 00:04:15.630 in their home network, especially if they have failover networks, not mandatory. 00:04:15.870 --> 00:04:18.870 And if you're using Linux, I'd like to know about that setup. 00:04:19.070 --> 00:04:20.590 So boost in a link or some details. 00:04:20.850 --> 00:04:22.610 Can BSD routers apply or no? 00:04:24.630 --> 00:04:27.690 We'll get into that, Wes. We'll get into that. 00:04:30.730 --> 00:04:35.690 So for episode 666, we thought we'd check in on our Unix cousin once again. 00:04:35.910 --> 00:04:40.390 It's been well over, well, not well, but just over a year. And a lot can change in that time. 00:04:40.550 --> 00:04:41.150 This is true. 00:04:41.310 --> 00:04:44.550 Especially in Linux land, a lot does change. What about in BSD? 00:04:44.830 --> 00:04:47.670 Have things improved to make switching more viable in one year? 00:04:48.470 --> 00:04:53.630 I don't know about that. So just a very quick overview. The BSD challenge has four levels to it. 00:04:53.870 --> 00:04:56.870 The daily driver, the power user, and the bonus round. 00:04:56.870 --> 00:05:00.090 you know really phase one and 00:05:00.090 --> 00:05:03.050 or level one and level two are really about getting the system up 00:05:03.050 --> 00:05:05.930 getting a functional desktop browser making some 00:05:05.930 --> 00:05:09.470 sounds then it starts getting to things like in the power level level three 00:05:09.470 --> 00:05:13.470 ssh starting and stopping services and then if you can get all the way to level 00:05:13.470 --> 00:05:18.730 four and start a bsd jail and run a service inside it then you know you can 00:05:18.730 --> 00:05:21.610 start counting up and everything's been everything has a total of points to 00:05:21.610 --> 00:05:25.730 it if we fail we do like to add a little bit of stakes to it. 00:05:25.890 --> 00:05:30.630 So whoever gets the lowest score here on the show, whoever ends up essentially 00:05:30.630 --> 00:05:33.490 failing the BSD challenge must pay the fail tax. 00:05:33.870 --> 00:05:39.410 And this year the fail tax will be becoming our official Red Hat correspondent 00:05:39.410 --> 00:05:41.010 for the Red Hat Summit for the week. 00:05:41.130 --> 00:05:44.130 So next episode, they'll have to report back with what they learned from the 00:05:44.130 --> 00:05:46.110 Red Hat Summit that's taking place this week. 00:05:46.210 --> 00:05:47.770 From BSD to Bootsy. 00:05:47.930 --> 00:05:53.470 That's hard work. It's a lot of on the grounds. It's, it's, that's a, 00:05:54.757 --> 00:05:57.357 That's the hardest thing we could think of, and it's work that needs to be done. 00:05:57.717 --> 00:05:59.797 So whoever comes, it's basically a second job. 00:05:59.797 --> 00:06:02.757 There's a lot of corporate details that need to get filtered for the open source folks. 00:06:03.397 --> 00:06:07.637 Yeah, so whoever fails, whoever gets the lowest score, has to become the official 00:06:07.637 --> 00:06:09.157 Red Hat Summit correspondent of the week. 00:06:09.917 --> 00:06:13.977 And we'll see where that lands. So before we get into how we did, 00:06:14.317 --> 00:06:19.017 let's talk about what we did, what we used for our BSD challenge setups. 00:06:19.737 --> 00:06:23.137 Brantley, tell me about the hardware. Don't give us too much details yet on 00:06:23.137 --> 00:06:28.117 the results and your score. Just give us a sense of the hardware you used or 00:06:28.117 --> 00:06:31.617 virtual machines or whatever, whatever the stack was for the BSD challenge. 00:06:32.997 --> 00:06:37.257 Well, I had high hopes. I had hardware sitting, waiting in the wings, 00:06:37.257 --> 00:06:38.797 and that's where it ended up staying. 00:06:39.077 --> 00:06:42.477 So that's a little maybe foreshadowing. 00:06:42.837 --> 00:06:47.037 I don't mean to foreshadow too much, but I had certainly got some success in 00:06:47.037 --> 00:06:56.577 a virtual machine. And I used a, let's say, rather insane VPS to help me with that challenge. 00:06:56.757 --> 00:07:02.057 All right. Okay. That's a good tease. Okay. Now, Wes, I want to know what your 00:07:02.057 --> 00:07:07.237 hardware setup was or software setup, whatever the stack was it used for your BSD challenge. 00:07:07.897 --> 00:07:15.117 Yeah. It was a combo of virtual machines, of course. And then also the old trusty show T480 ThinkPad. 00:07:15.237 --> 00:07:15.477 Oh, yeah. 00:07:15.477 --> 00:07:19.197 With an all Intel stack, which is a pretty kind of a cheat code for some of 00:07:19.197 --> 00:07:20.057 these things, honestly. 00:07:20.537 --> 00:07:25.577 And then I also put for server mode, I got it running on an old NUC I have laying 00:07:25.577 --> 00:07:29.717 around that TBD needs to be Nixified, but needed to get paved anyway. 00:07:29.977 --> 00:07:31.037 So this seemed like a good opportunity. 00:07:31.897 --> 00:07:36.017 All right. So I had, of course, a couple of VMs where I experimented with a few ideas. 00:07:36.757 --> 00:07:40.357 And that was just, you know, QMU, KVM and remote viewer on my desktop. 00:07:40.797 --> 00:07:42.197 Which works pretty well, I got to say. 00:07:42.277 --> 00:07:46.717 It does. The hardware I decided to go with, I talked about it last week, 00:07:46.897 --> 00:07:50.997 we revived a Dell Precision 7000 series kind of custom... 00:07:52.829 --> 00:07:58.009 r&d machine and it's a big box two xeon processors in there i slapped a new 00:07:58.009 --> 00:08:00.009 ssd well new you were ready. 00:08:00.009 --> 00:08:01.509 To get some bsd work done. 00:08:01.509 --> 00:08:05.609 Yeah man big old screen it has two different video cards in it which is a bit 00:08:05.609 --> 00:08:08.989 of a challenge but not impossible and i just needed one of them to work right 00:08:08.989 --> 00:08:16.169 and then i also thanks to uh yeah thanks to olympia mike had me a spare nix 00:08:16.169 --> 00:08:18.609 book which is like a dell something or other, 00:08:19.289 --> 00:08:21.889 you know, nice mid-tier Dell laptop from years ago. 00:08:23.109 --> 00:08:28.649 And had that to test on as well. So I will acknowledge that I think the flaw 00:08:28.649 --> 00:08:34.609 perhaps in some of my approach was it was too biased to laptops. 00:08:35.129 --> 00:08:36.229 I'll get into that later. 00:08:36.829 --> 00:08:42.349 But I also think that's a very modern workflow. It's the most common kind of 00:08:42.349 --> 00:08:43.509 computer people buy these days. 00:08:44.169 --> 00:08:48.189 But thinking through this, I think I would have liked to have tossed a nice 00:08:48.189 --> 00:08:50.769 standard desktop into the mix. 00:08:50.969 --> 00:08:53.269 It would be maybe worth trying to do something like this where, 00:08:53.469 --> 00:08:56.269 like, you know, in the older days of Linux, like, we might not have thought 00:08:56.269 --> 00:08:58.329 it super fair if you didn't do the steps where you're like, well, 00:08:58.409 --> 00:09:00.449 were you being, it's like, it's fine to test a random thing. 00:09:00.549 --> 00:09:03.989 But like, is that what you would do if you were really trying to plan around doing this long term? 00:09:04.329 --> 00:09:06.449 So, yeah, maybe it would be worth trying to think like, if we were trying to 00:09:06.449 --> 00:09:09.689 build a really nice BSD box, what would it be and what would that look like? 00:09:10.887 --> 00:09:17.807 Although the Dell next book I used, a little spoiler there, but really had full 00:09:17.807 --> 00:09:19.527 hardware compatibility. So that was nice. 00:09:20.487 --> 00:09:23.827 Before we get to our results, we had a few people email in. We also have some 00:09:23.827 --> 00:09:25.367 that boosted in. We'll get to those as well. 00:09:25.807 --> 00:09:31.047 And Jeff wrote, and he tried out NetBSD. He's a longtime free BSD home labber, 00:09:31.167 --> 00:09:33.167 but he's never tried out NetBSD. 00:09:33.447 --> 00:09:36.067 He got through levels one through three and the stretch goals. 00:09:36.067 --> 00:09:40.987 He got an NPF firewall going and QMU Linux VM running on his BSD bots. 00:09:41.067 --> 00:09:41.507 Nice. 00:09:41.647 --> 00:09:46.067 He set up ZFS snapshots. But he hit a wall at level four because Podman jails 00:09:46.067 --> 00:09:47.367 would not work on that BSD. 00:09:47.887 --> 00:09:48.727 Ah. Yeah. 00:09:49.127 --> 00:09:49.387 Fair. 00:09:49.707 --> 00:09:50.047 Fair. 00:09:50.587 --> 00:09:55.947 He also has open BSD on an Orange Pi 5, which he uses as a tail scale endpoint. 00:09:56.527 --> 00:09:56.967 Yeah. 00:09:57.347 --> 00:10:00.087 And he sent us a nice detailed write-up. He did have some audio quirks and some 00:10:00.087 --> 00:10:03.947 Wi-Fi performance issues. And he goes by TuxMM in our community. Thank you, TuxMM. 00:10:04.587 --> 00:10:09.207 So FreeBSD15 with XFCE as his desktop on that one. XFCE was pretty popular there. 00:10:09.767 --> 00:10:14.107 Oh, no, I'm sorry, that wasn't Tux. That was Jeff. TuxMM was using FreeBSD15 00:10:14.107 --> 00:10:16.227 with XFCE. Jeff was using NetBSD. Sorry. 00:10:16.667 --> 00:10:21.367 Yeah, TuxMM was a cardiology nurse practitioner, Linux user since 2019. 00:10:22.327 --> 00:10:23.927 Hey, nicely done. 00:10:24.427 --> 00:10:28.707 Installed FreeBSD15 on an external NVMe, got Ethernet and Wi-Fi working. 00:10:29.047 --> 00:10:33.087 Firefox with online radio and YouTube VLC, OBS Studio, LibreOffice. 00:10:33.247 --> 00:10:33.587 Why? 00:10:33.587 --> 00:10:39.427 Mega Command sync to backup NGINX SSH from a MacBook Air mounted USB and wrote 00:10:39.427 --> 00:10:42.087 a bash script. System updated via package. 00:10:42.587 --> 00:10:47.327 FreeBSD 15 uses package for base too. Yeah, which is a cool new thing in the BSD world. 00:10:48.107 --> 00:10:52.307 So I'm looking up Mega Command. A command line interactive and scriptable application 00:10:52.307 --> 00:10:54.967 provides a non-UI access to mega services. 00:10:55.247 --> 00:10:57.007 Ah, the mega storage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:10:58.414 --> 00:11:00.014 Very nice. FreeBSD 15. 00:11:00.314 --> 00:11:01.554 That's an impressive setup. 00:11:01.714 --> 00:11:02.734 Well done on the points, too. 00:11:02.934 --> 00:11:03.274 Mm-hmm. 00:11:04.774 --> 00:11:07.954 Eddie tried out GhostBSD. Bare Metal install would not boot for him, 00:11:08.014 --> 00:11:10.514 so he moved over to a VM. He got about 20 points, he said. 00:11:11.394 --> 00:11:14.714 GhostBSD for him made levels one through two, getting the desktop rolling pretty easy. 00:11:14.994 --> 00:11:19.554 But level three, he hit a struggle there. He called BSD like visiting the early 00:11:19.554 --> 00:11:23.114 days of Linux and closes with long live Linux. 00:11:25.934 --> 00:11:27.254 Amen, Eddie. Amen. 00:11:27.254 --> 00:11:30.114 Hey, it's good to be reminded of why we do what we do. 00:11:31.698 --> 00:11:35.798 You see here, Joe had a suggestion for you. He says, I think Brent should give 00:11:35.798 --> 00:11:38.778 Ghost BSD a try. Nick's BSD doesn't work. 00:11:38.978 --> 00:11:42.358 He mentioned ZFS snapshots to another BSD host. 00:11:42.918 --> 00:11:45.138 And he says, Alan might have a tip for you there. 00:11:45.318 --> 00:11:51.478 Ooh. I did look at my, well, things were going very bad for me at one point. 00:11:51.518 --> 00:11:55.238 So I did look at, I promised that I would look at the community's suggestions 00:11:55.238 --> 00:11:57.538 for what my backup plan should be. 00:11:57.538 --> 00:12:05.678 and on matrix uh we got the most votes for dragonfly bsd so i went and read 00:12:05.678 --> 00:12:07.178 all sorts of things about dragonfly 00:12:07.178 --> 00:12:12.418 bsd and i decided i should just try harder on nick's bsd so i did. 00:12:14.198 --> 00:12:17.838 Now mr mayhem sent in a thorough report brantley did you see this. 00:12:17.838 --> 00:12:20.918 Oh yeah so mayhem like uh jumped 00:12:20.918 --> 00:12:23.958 the gun and did a full week before the challenge and 00:12:23.958 --> 00:12:26.658 said hey i got the max points but i was just 00:12:26.658 --> 00:12:32.058 looking at uh the nice blog post that they wrote up and it it's worth visiting 00:12:32.058 --> 00:12:36.918 we'll have it linked in the show notes um there's an update for week two and 00:12:36.918 --> 00:12:42.758 there's a nice photo here of mayhem with mini mayhem uh their son doing all 00:12:42.758 --> 00:12:45.538 sorts of the challenges that i didn't find success with, 00:12:46.978 --> 00:12:52.978 so they did some of the stretch goals and got a bunch of stuff going there's 00:12:52.978 --> 00:12:54.738 a note here i thought That was pretty funny. 00:12:55.078 --> 00:13:00.398 PF was easy. Just edit the pf.com file to block all those evil Californian IP 00:13:00.398 --> 00:13:01.718 addresses and that's it. 00:13:02.978 --> 00:13:07.718 And there's screenshots of all sorts of like gaming on here. 00:13:07.898 --> 00:13:12.818 There's a cringe shirt that he wants us to ignore. But. 00:13:13.418 --> 00:13:14.698 A good looking desktop. 00:13:15.038 --> 00:13:16.378 Yes. Yes. 00:13:16.558 --> 00:13:16.918 Good looking desktop. 00:13:17.138 --> 00:13:20.818 And it looks like they spent many hours with this thing but he has a little 00:13:20.818 --> 00:13:22.718 bonus point here. Weirdest place. 00:13:24.133 --> 00:13:28.933 They got, here it says, there were bonus points for installing it in a weird 00:13:28.933 --> 00:13:30.533 place. So I put it in my car. 00:13:30.833 --> 00:13:35.833 This is a proof of concept so far. And there's a photograph of a proof of concept, let's say. 00:13:36.033 --> 00:13:39.973 But I actually intend on making this a long-term reality with a smaller screen 00:13:39.973 --> 00:13:42.613 reflecting off of my windshield with a smaller screen. 00:13:42.733 --> 00:13:47.433 This could be a legitimately useful heads-up display for working my mail route. 00:13:48.073 --> 00:13:50.853 And there's a little conclusion here. All things considered, the 00:13:50.853 --> 00:13:53.593 last two weeks have been absolutely horrible to the 00:13:53.593 --> 00:13:56.593 degree that i'm surprised my dog didn't die but this challenge 00:13:56.593 --> 00:13:59.453 could have been a cherry on that cake if not 00:13:59.453 --> 00:14:02.113 for free bsd it was an absolute dream to get 00:14:02.113 --> 00:14:05.093 installed and run and i intend to keep it running 00:14:05.093 --> 00:14:09.033 in a world where linux is constantly becoming more and more mainstream in both 00:14:09.033 --> 00:14:13.133 good and bad ways free bsd is a reminder of why i fell in love with linux almost 00:14:13.133 --> 00:14:17.833 20 years ago it's still got that old cowboy feel to it that i remember feeling 00:14:17.833 --> 00:14:24.133 back in 2009 when i first I spun out my garbage Ubuntu laptop at Fort Leonard Wood. 00:14:24.833 --> 00:14:27.593 I love that. That's what I was hoping somebody would find. That's great. 00:14:27.793 --> 00:14:31.833 There's a lot more in this blog post, and I would say dive in. It's a fun read. 00:14:32.253 --> 00:14:33.473 I want to call out one thing. 00:14:33.653 --> 00:14:35.793 And Brent will be quoting from it instead of his own experience. 00:14:35.893 --> 00:14:36.213 Oh, yes. 00:14:36.313 --> 00:14:41.273 He tried to give Pinchflat a go, which I'm a big fan of, how I watch YouTube offline on Jellyfin. 00:14:42.073 --> 00:14:45.373 And he says it should have been easy to port. It's written in Elixir. 00:14:45.753 --> 00:14:49.553 You know, it's VM power programming language. But he could not get it running. 00:14:49.673 --> 00:14:52.793 he could not get it to build, so he switched over to something called Cinch Flat. 00:14:53.473 --> 00:14:54.193 Oh, yeah. 00:14:54.673 --> 00:15:01.033 Yeah, it's a simple scriptish wrapper around YouTube DLP, or maybe, no, that's Pinch Flat. 00:15:01.153 --> 00:15:04.933 Anyways, I wanna look in, I think I've seen the name. Oh, good, he did link to it. 00:15:06.353 --> 00:15:08.253 So, let's link to Cinch Flat in the. 00:15:08.653 --> 00:15:11.073 Oh, I hadn't thought about Pinch Flat, but yeah, we know early. 00:15:11.173 --> 00:15:14.513 So, BSD first Pinch Flat alternative, look at that. Look at that, oh, that's so great. 00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:17.800 You know, the stuff you get through the, thank you for that. 00:15:18.540 --> 00:15:20.640 That's a lot of effort that went into that blog post too. 00:15:20.780 --> 00:15:20.980 Yeah. 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.840 It was really nice. Put that in the old show notes there. There's also, 00:15:24.980 --> 00:15:28.660 we'll put some links to some resources. I did mention kind of being laptop biased. 00:15:29.020 --> 00:15:34.340 Well, there is a resource for laptop users that want to try out FreeBSD. 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:38.580 And it's the FreeBSD Foundation's Laptop Support and Usability Project. 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:45.560 that aims to deliver packages for FreeBSD that improves functionality for that 00:15:45.560 --> 00:15:50.260 kind of out-of-the-box experience you might want on a broad range of different laptops. 00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:51.800 Do you think this is what helped you, Chris? 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:55.820 Definitely came in clutch for me. Definitely made all the difference. 00:15:56.440 --> 00:15:59.680 And after this, I had no problems, and I just stacked all the points. 00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:07.340 Thank you to our members. If you're not a member yet, use the promo code 666, 00:16:07.340 --> 00:16:11.160 and you can take 6% off every month's subscription. 00:16:11.460 --> 00:16:15.780 The lifetime of the subscription applies to new purchases, reactivations, and upgrades. 00:16:16.540 --> 00:16:19.520 We just want to say thank you to those of you that are considering becoming a member. 00:16:19.700 --> 00:16:22.880 You get access to the bootleg or the ad-free version of the show, 00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:24.720 so you probably wouldn't even be hearing this right now. 00:16:24.880 --> 00:16:27.820 But also the bootleg's getting more and more valuable these days, I'd say. 00:16:28.040 --> 00:16:31.160 There's some good content in there for you. And if you're already a member, 00:16:31.300 --> 00:16:33.160 just thank you so much for keeping us going. 00:16:33.460 --> 00:16:38.480 This year has been completely made possible by our members. Starting in January, 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:40.520 the first episode of the year. 00:16:40.940 --> 00:16:43.880 And since then, it's only been possible because of our members. 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:45.220 You want to keep us going? We all are underwriting this. 00:16:45.400 --> 00:16:49.380 Yeah, you are. LinuxUnplugged.com slash membership or jupiter.party. 00:16:49.460 --> 00:16:53.020 You can use promo code 666 for either membership. 00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:55.580 And we do greatly appreciate it. 00:16:59.715 --> 00:17:03.155 Well, I guess my BSD week was an interesting one. 00:17:03.415 --> 00:17:07.275 If you remember, last week I was in the studio and feeling pretty good about 00:17:07.275 --> 00:17:11.395 this challenge. So I gave myself a few extra crazy handicaps. 00:17:11.535 --> 00:17:12.375 I don't know why I did that. 00:17:12.575 --> 00:17:16.755 But I decided to try out Nix BSD. 00:17:17.295 --> 00:17:21.855 We talked about it last week a bit, but it's basically trying to meld the declarative 00:17:21.855 --> 00:17:26.375 concept of Nix and Nix OS with BSD. 00:17:26.595 --> 00:17:31.395 And it turns out that's actually a really fun idea. It is also quite an experimental one. 00:17:32.175 --> 00:17:36.755 So, yeah, I gave myself that challenge before really reading the project documentation. 00:17:37.855 --> 00:17:38.055 All right. 00:17:38.455 --> 00:17:40.815 But tell us your trouble. 00:17:40.915 --> 00:17:41.035 Son. 00:17:41.295 --> 00:17:45.575 I dove right in. My trouble started when Wes on that episode said, 00:17:45.715 --> 00:17:47.995 oh, you might have to build a thing or two. 00:17:48.455 --> 00:17:52.275 And that's Wes's low-key way of suggesting that it may take several hours. 00:17:52.595 --> 00:17:55.775 Yeah. Turns out many hours. 00:17:55.775 --> 00:17:58.435 uh i decided to try to get 00:17:58.435 --> 00:18:01.295 it installed that's the very first point you can get actually the first two points 00:18:01.295 --> 00:18:06.755 i suppose um i spent most of my time here um and 00:18:06.755 --> 00:18:12.055 i but i decided to do it the right way and spin up a vps that has the maximum 00:18:12.055 --> 00:18:17.235 you know uh performance for building stuff yeah so i decided to offload the 00:18:17.235 --> 00:18:23.035 build to a vps that was just like maxed so that it could build it as quickly 00:18:23.035 --> 00:18:24.715 as possible so that I could just iterate. 00:18:24.995 --> 00:18:30.355 But that still took, you know, like an hour and a half or two hours or something like that. 00:18:31.755 --> 00:18:34.975 Because it turns out I'm doing something that's not commonly done. 00:18:35.195 --> 00:18:40.715 And there is in the project documentation, a binary cache that is suggested 00:18:40.715 --> 00:18:42.775 you can use. And I was like, oh, that's amazing. 00:18:43.315 --> 00:18:49.035 Turns out it's 404, totally gone. Nobody's, you know, used it. So... 00:18:49.945 --> 00:18:55.005 That meant I spent a great amount of time in this particular stage trying to 00:18:55.005 --> 00:18:57.885 get my very first two points, but I got it. 00:18:57.985 --> 00:19:05.065 I got it booting and it turned out building on my laptop was just torturing 00:19:05.065 --> 00:19:06.405 it. So that was totally the way to go. 00:19:06.545 --> 00:19:10.365 And then once I got an image, most of the building was all done. 00:19:10.465 --> 00:19:13.245 So if I had to build another thing or two, it wasn't actually that bad to do 00:19:13.245 --> 00:19:18.445 on the laptop, bring things down. So I learned a lot about Nix OS, 00:19:18.845 --> 00:19:23.465 which was not at all part of the challenge, but a good exercise to do. 00:19:24.065 --> 00:19:24.505 Okay. 00:19:24.645 --> 00:19:27.565 So I got my very first two points like only a couple of days ago. 00:19:28.065 --> 00:19:28.825 Congratulations, buddy. 00:19:29.005 --> 00:19:35.865 Thank you. I would say NixBSD is fascinating. It is really fun to do it in a 00:19:35.865 --> 00:19:36.985 way that you're not supposed to. 00:19:37.225 --> 00:19:42.085 It also means I deeply handicapped myself in ways I didn't realize, 00:19:42.245 --> 00:19:46.105 still got further down the list. but I did get connection to the internet. 00:19:46.585 --> 00:19:48.925 So got it running in a VM, got a connection to the internet. 00:19:49.305 --> 00:19:53.605 I did install a package because, well, ping wasn't installed. 00:19:53.845 --> 00:19:55.985 So to, Oh, wow. Really? Wow. 00:19:56.205 --> 00:19:56.385 Yeah. 00:19:56.685 --> 00:19:56.925 Okay. 00:19:59.285 --> 00:20:02.465 Luckily it was pretty easy because I have an X config. 00:20:02.645 --> 00:20:08.085 So I was able to just enable ping in the next config, which was like literally a super simple thing. 00:20:09.085 --> 00:20:11.285 Reading the man pages. Well, I had to read all about, 00:20:12.336 --> 00:20:15.056 jails because uh that is also a thing you can 00:20:15.056 --> 00:20:18.136 enable in the next config but then so i got that part very easily 00:20:18.136 --> 00:20:20.976 but then that's great didn't know what to 00:20:20.976 --> 00:20:24.676 do with it at that point so enabling jails is very simple using 00:20:24.676 --> 00:20:27.376 jails maybe less so but here's the point where i 00:20:27.376 --> 00:20:30.376 just deeply handicapped myself the next psd project 00:20:30.376 --> 00:20:33.496 is not really designed to run a desktop 00:20:33.496 --> 00:20:37.556 and you would need to like do 00:20:37.556 --> 00:20:40.396 a lot of work that i'm not skilled to doing to 00:20:40.396 --> 00:20:44.456 port things over to this so oh so level 00:20:44.456 --> 00:20:47.196 two was a little disappointing for me this is 00:20:47.196 --> 00:20:50.356 when i started looking at dragonfly bsd as a backup because 00:20:50.356 --> 00:20:53.456 uh couldn't get a graphical desktop going could not 00:20:53.456 --> 00:20:56.336 get a web browser going so that's five points i didn't get right there 00:20:56.336 --> 00:21:01.296 uh-oh however i did get my own user account pretty easily because i was able 00:21:01.296 --> 00:21:05.416 to declare that in the next config so that was super simple nice okay very very 00:21:05.416 --> 00:21:13.716 simple um mount usb also wasn't able to get to audio well yeah so level two 00:21:13.716 --> 00:21:15.116 is a little depressing for me. 00:21:16.196 --> 00:21:20.336 So i decided just quickly go to level three because why not that's the power 00:21:20.336 --> 00:21:25.076 user part right um and here's where i'm going to start begging for points i 00:21:25.076 --> 00:21:28.756 believe uh i know that was uh Suggested it might be allowed. 00:21:29.556 --> 00:21:35.696 So updating packages is an interesting one because I can't use, 00:21:35.696 --> 00:21:39.756 you know, PKG you would use on FreeBSD to update your packages. 00:21:40.116 --> 00:21:40.256 Right. 00:21:40.916 --> 00:21:46.056 Well, NixBSD doesn't really have PKG because everything's done with Nix. 00:21:46.296 --> 00:21:51.096 So that's impossible and would just have broken everything. However, 00:21:51.836 --> 00:21:59.836 I did build the VM by pinning the most recent pin that was available in the NixBSD project. 00:22:01.460 --> 00:22:07.980 So, would you give me some points for, like, updating the system before deploying it? Question? 00:22:09.420 --> 00:22:10.160 Half a point? 00:22:10.340 --> 00:22:12.800 Hmm. Half a point? 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:14.480 Half a point. Then we got to do... 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:16.680 Okay, well, you can give me a full point. I'm fine with that. 00:22:17.740 --> 00:22:19.600 I just feel like we give you a pity point. 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:20.780 I think that's fine. 00:22:20.780 --> 00:22:23.640 I'm okay with that. Is producer Jeff all right with that? 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:27.420 Yeah, we're checking with PJ. PJ, you want to override one pity point for Brent 00:22:27.420 --> 00:22:29.940 for his half-assed system update there? 00:22:35.420 --> 00:22:41.980 Okay all right um so moving through uh getting services running at boot um, 00:22:42.700 --> 00:22:47.660 i don't know i'm not going to give myself that point you can do it in the next 00:22:47.660 --> 00:22:53.300 config i didn't really get it done or i didn't yeah so um but moving on jails 00:22:53.300 --> 00:22:56.780 i got to create jails really easily, because that's a one-liner in the Nix config. 00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:57.060 Yeah. 00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:58.780 Nice. So in some ways, using Nix BSD. 00:22:58.780 --> 00:23:00.340 Declared of jails via Nix config. 00:23:00.580 --> 00:23:00.780 Yeah. 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:01.540 I want that. 00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:01.860 Yeah. 00:23:02.060 --> 00:23:06.620 Yeah. One thing about the Nix config was it made some things really easy and 00:23:06.620 --> 00:23:07.840 made other things really impossible. 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:10.620 So it was a blessed Nix blessing, I would say. 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:12.000 So it's kind of like Nix OS. 00:23:12.220 --> 00:23:13.520 Do we have a total here? Yeah. 00:23:15.700 --> 00:23:20.680 Yeah. So in total, given, you know, tying one hand behind my back the entire 00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:24.740 time, I've got about 14 points plus a pity point. 00:23:25.906 --> 00:23:30.106 So we'll give you 15 points. Okay. I'm going to need you to keep track of mine 00:23:30.106 --> 00:23:32.886 because my story is very emotional. Oh, okay. And I've been on a journey. 00:23:33.046 --> 00:23:33.966 Let me get a pen here. 00:23:34.286 --> 00:23:37.586 I couldn't bring myself to tally up my points. 00:23:40.406 --> 00:23:45.006 So I hated this. And I don't mean to go ahead, but I got to go ahead here. 00:23:45.126 --> 00:23:47.486 I have to talk about this because I got to get through this. 00:23:47.566 --> 00:23:49.866 I have to be over with this. I cannot wait any longer. 00:23:50.346 --> 00:23:50.906 Yep, let's do it. 00:23:51.346 --> 00:23:55.166 Like yourself, I spent most of the week getting to level two. 00:23:55.426 --> 00:23:55.786 Okay. 00:23:55.906 --> 00:24:00.586 Because it doesn't matter what boot medium or hard drive configuration I used, 00:24:00.746 --> 00:24:03.746 I could not get a BSD to boot on that Dell Precision laptop. 00:24:04.766 --> 00:24:09.046 Couldn't do it. And then when I tried to do it in a VM, I hit a bug with the 00:24:09.046 --> 00:24:13.066 current version of Ghost BSD. It prevents X11 and like Plasma and all this other 00:24:13.066 --> 00:24:17.026 stuff from working or Mate or XFCE. So I couldn't do it in a VM. 00:24:17.326 --> 00:24:20.726 Yeah, because they're using Mate on Xlibre, I think, in the most recent release. 00:24:20.926 --> 00:24:24.626 Sure, it's fine. I got nothing else to do, right? So then I got to go dig up 00:24:24.626 --> 00:24:27.486 other hardware. So I find this old Nick's book from Olympia, Mike. 00:24:27.926 --> 00:24:31.386 Well, let me back up. So first I think, this is the worst part, 00:24:31.406 --> 00:24:33.466 actually. This was the part, I can't believe I almost skipped this. 00:24:33.906 --> 00:24:36.706 I start to realize, what if Brent's right? 00:24:37.906 --> 00:24:38.266 Oh. 00:24:38.446 --> 00:24:39.066 What if Brent's right? 00:24:39.066 --> 00:24:39.966 A dangerous thing to think. 00:24:40.386 --> 00:24:40.886 I know. 00:24:40.926 --> 00:24:41.226 Go on. 00:24:41.426 --> 00:24:42.706 We're all surprised at this one. 00:24:43.006 --> 00:24:45.766 What if I put bang in my head against a Ventoy issue all day? 00:24:45.906 --> 00:24:46.266 Oh. 00:24:46.466 --> 00:24:47.666 Because I'm using Ventoy to... 00:24:47.666 --> 00:24:48.146 Oh. 00:24:48.806 --> 00:24:53.146 And I'm getting this weird air that GhostBSD is waiting on the boot medium. 00:24:53.526 --> 00:24:55.746 That does seem, and it is the boot medium. 00:24:55.986 --> 00:24:58.966 Right? It is the boot medium. So I'm thinking to myself, after like a day of 00:24:58.966 --> 00:25:02.426 this, I'm like, cause I'm trying different ISOs, I'm trying older versions, 00:25:02.646 --> 00:25:03.906 I'm trying the community edition. 00:25:03.986 --> 00:25:04.426 Which I'll get to. 00:25:04.586 --> 00:25:08.446 Which was a highlight. I'm trying, cause I really wanted to make GhostBSD work 00:25:08.446 --> 00:25:11.606 again. Cause that's what I visited before. And I just kind of wanted to check the Delta. 00:25:13.198 --> 00:25:18.518 So I go dig up an old traditional thumb drive. You know, a classic real thumb drive. 00:25:18.538 --> 00:25:20.918 It's probably one of mine that I've left there. Probably. 00:25:21.618 --> 00:25:22.958 32 gigger, you know? 00:25:23.098 --> 00:25:23.698 Nope, not mine. 00:25:23.978 --> 00:25:27.078 I flash it with the Ghost BSD. 00:25:27.298 --> 00:25:28.478 Just like a straight flash. 00:25:28.558 --> 00:25:32.718 No nonsense. Old school, like it used to do. And with the old DD. 00:25:32.898 --> 00:25:36.658 And I go over, and it starts to boot. And I'm like, oh, God, 00:25:36.858 --> 00:25:38.138 it's something different's happening. 00:25:38.438 --> 00:25:41.858 And it locks up in a completely different place. Completely different. 00:25:42.898 --> 00:25:45.738 So progress? I'm like, is there something wrong with this machine? 00:25:45.798 --> 00:25:50.018 It is a weird machine. So I'm like, maybe it's because it's a blank CD. 00:25:50.598 --> 00:25:54.698 So, or I mean a blank disk. So I'll just install Windows, right? 00:25:54.698 --> 00:25:56.718 Because I'm sure that's a common scenario in the real world. 00:25:56.798 --> 00:25:57.638 That's how desperate I am. 00:25:57.778 --> 00:26:01.338 So I install Windows 11 on this Dell, and it works perfectly fine. 00:26:02.198 --> 00:26:05.618 And nothing changes. I'm like, okay, so it's not that. So I redo it, 00:26:05.678 --> 00:26:09.058 and I install Ubuntu 24, whatever. I think it was like the one version back. 00:26:11.218 --> 00:26:14.758 works fine everything works out of the box 3d acceleration wi-fi 00:26:14.758 --> 00:26:17.718 no problems booting i'm thinking okay now there's 00:26:17.718 --> 00:26:20.378 a file system there this thing's going to recognize as a 00:26:20.378 --> 00:26:23.078 real disc and whatever the problem it's having with loading the 00:26:23.078 --> 00:26:25.958 boot image it'll keep going now and i pop back in i mean 00:26:25.958 --> 00:26:29.178 on my custom crafted usb thumb stick that i've carefully 00:26:29.178 --> 00:26:32.558 dd and i pop it in there and ghost bsd boots up and i put it in verbose mode 00:26:32.558 --> 00:26:36.798 i put it in safe my trial these different a no a god forbid you try no acpi 00:26:36.798 --> 00:26:40.558 if you try no acpi it won't even boot at all but so i try safe mode i try verbose 00:26:40.558 --> 00:26:48.978 mode i try all these different modes it never boots never booted so uh i pivot free bsd 15 won't boot. 00:26:48.978 --> 00:26:50.598 Whoa no way. 00:26:50.598 --> 00:26:54.958 Yeah and i go okay it kind of makes sense ghost bsd is based on free bsd all right. 00:26:54.958 --> 00:26:58.678 Yeah it's just interesting because i've had other issues but not booting free bsd. 00:26:58.678 --> 00:27:02.418 I know and like i can boot everything else from windows to the ubuntu's on this 00:27:02.418 --> 00:27:08.718 thing so i don't So I pivot and I go get the Knicks book and GhostBSD boots 00:27:08.718 --> 00:27:10.418 up just fine on the Knicks book. 00:27:11.228 --> 00:27:17.588 And what I decided to do was try out their Gerwish desktop environment. 00:27:17.708 --> 00:27:18.348 Their what now? 00:27:18.468 --> 00:27:18.668 Yeah. 00:27:18.808 --> 00:27:19.188 Say again. 00:27:19.968 --> 00:27:24.108 Gershwin. It's a GNU step like environment. 00:27:24.348 --> 00:27:24.768 Whoa. 00:27:25.488 --> 00:27:29.708 Kind of taken from the days before Apple acquired Next and Apple was working 00:27:29.708 --> 00:27:33.868 on kind of this new UI design that was called Copeland and all these things 00:27:33.868 --> 00:27:35.188 that never made it to the light of day. 00:27:35.188 --> 00:27:39.088 And it comes with a terminal, a text editor, some basic system preferences, 00:27:40.228 --> 00:27:43.248 file manager, and it's crazy light. 00:27:43.408 --> 00:27:46.108 The entire desktop environment's under 50 megabytes of storage. 00:27:46.308 --> 00:27:48.888 Yeah, wow. This says it can be built in like a few minutes? 00:27:49.468 --> 00:27:52.408 Lightning fast. It's very early. 00:27:53.088 --> 00:27:56.468 But you don't have to use GhostBSD to use it either. Although it's from the 00:27:56.468 --> 00:28:00.608 GhostBSD community, they also make a general free BSD live ISO available, 00:28:00.868 --> 00:28:04.748 a Debian-based live ISO available, and an Arch ISO. 00:28:05.208 --> 00:28:09.648 And I tried out the Arch one as well, and it's a little bit more up to date 00:28:09.648 --> 00:28:11.488 than what comes with GhostBSD right now. 00:28:11.868 --> 00:28:17.688 It's a very MVP desktop environment, but if you have any nostalgia for that 00:28:17.688 --> 00:28:26.208 era of computers, it's a lot of fun. And then just the pure speed of it is just a thrill. 00:28:26.428 --> 00:28:30.948 It's basic, but it's a lot of fun. So that was a highlight, I think, 00:28:30.948 --> 00:28:33.528 and that's what I used for my GhostBSD desktop stuff. 00:28:33.728 --> 00:28:35.068 Next week, we're getting Vibe Gershwin. 00:28:36.048 --> 00:28:37.108 Can it run on linux. 00:28:37.108 --> 00:28:41.088 I like that idea well it runs on arch right so runs on the old debian 00:28:41.528 --> 00:28:44.848 it's really it was really nice it was like going back in time um 00:28:44.848 --> 00:28:48.208 so here's what i did so let's let's go through the points and i i'll tell you 00:28:48.208 --> 00:28:50.808 what i got working what i didn't get working and where things went sideways 00:28:50.808 --> 00:28:55.008 all right so i think i got through all of level one that was no problem because 00:28:55.008 --> 00:28:58.028 i read a man page about beehive and all that so that was fine and i had to do 00:28:58.028 --> 00:29:01.308 lots of pings and test to make sure my network you installed some packages yeah 00:29:01.308 --> 00:29:04.028 yep i in fact i Updated the entire system. 00:29:04.228 --> 00:29:04.348 All right. 00:29:04.348 --> 00:29:08.128 Got some audio working. Browser was working. All of that was fine. 00:29:09.769 --> 00:29:16.289 I did stop and start multiple services, but I'll tell you, here's where things started to go sideways. 00:29:16.689 --> 00:29:22.149 I made multiple changes to rc.conf and nothing went sideways. It was fine. 00:29:23.449 --> 00:29:26.729 Maybe I got a little complacent after making multiple changes, 00:29:26.989 --> 00:29:28.909 but I decided, screw jails. 00:29:30.469 --> 00:29:33.949 Oh, fancy namespaces. Ooh, Capsum. Oh, okay. 00:29:34.169 --> 00:29:37.609 I wanted Beehive. I wanted to try out Beehive. 00:29:37.609 --> 00:29:41.369 so I go into rc.com and 00:29:41.369 --> 00:29:44.109 I add three lines like one of them is like 00:29:44.109 --> 00:29:47.469 enable beehive the other is to set up bridge networking and 00:29:47.469 --> 00:29:52.629 this other line which I'm reading from a guide online is like some kind of tunnel 00:29:52.629 --> 00:29:56.269 I don't really know and I I look it up I don't find anything I'm like okay so 00:29:56.269 --> 00:30:01.409 go and I uh do a google search and okay here's a guide and it's like the same 00:30:01.409 --> 00:30:04.669 exact guide copied from this other I'm like okay all right it looks like these 00:30:04.669 --> 00:30:07.169 are these instructions are four years old, but whatever. All right. 00:30:07.329 --> 00:30:13.229 So I add the third line to my RC.com, which when I reboot should give me Beehive 00:30:13.229 --> 00:30:16.489 with bridge networking. All right. 00:30:16.669 --> 00:30:16.729 Yep. 00:30:18.435 --> 00:30:23.235 I reboot, and what I get is just an endless boot script loop, 00:30:23.355 --> 00:30:26.775 just scrolling text forever, nonstop. 00:30:27.135 --> 00:30:29.855 System never recovers. It just scrolls and scrolls and scrolls and scrolls. 00:30:29.915 --> 00:30:33.855 If I hold down the control and I just smash C over and over and over and over 00:30:33.855 --> 00:30:35.575 again, I get a completely failed system. 00:30:36.495 --> 00:30:39.395 And so that one, like, I'm assuming it's, like, either a bad, 00:30:39.395 --> 00:30:42.495 it's either a bad, like, stanzas, it's a bad syntax, it's something. 00:30:42.875 --> 00:30:45.795 And it just reminds me just how fragile this is. 00:30:46.955 --> 00:30:53.275 And now i would have to go through an entire live session recovery process take that line out, 00:30:54.275 --> 00:30:58.615 just to recover my system um now i know that you could set up zfs boot environments 00:30:58.615 --> 00:31:02.075 and things like that but this was just a basic brand new system i haven't even 00:31:02.075 --> 00:31:05.295 gotten that far yet and i completely took it out just trying to get beehive 00:31:05.295 --> 00:31:08.735 working so that was that's kind of when i was like this is, 00:31:09.815 --> 00:31:15.695 you know it i can see why there's a great market fit if if you have a shop with 00:31:15.695 --> 00:31:20.195 a lot of storage you need native zfs support you're really deep into the zfs 00:31:20.195 --> 00:31:24.235 ecosystem and you're fine with bsd, 00:31:24.955 --> 00:31:30.115 that seems like a use case to me but i have to say boys in and i don't know 00:31:30.115 --> 00:31:35.435 why i feel this way but in in the age that we are in now with all of this crazy 00:31:35.435 --> 00:31:39.835 llm generated code and agents and All of the stuff that Red Hat's going to be 00:31:39.835 --> 00:31:42.535 talking about this week, which is going to be some major announcements around that. 00:31:42.675 --> 00:31:50.235 And it just feels like BSD is more irrelevant than ever in these last eight months. 00:31:51.075 --> 00:31:54.135 Like, I really struggle to understand the genuine market fit. 00:31:54.235 --> 00:31:55.595 I mean, if you enjoy it, that's great. 00:31:56.275 --> 00:31:59.995 Like, if you enjoy Land Trek, that's great. I don't like Land Trek. 00:32:00.175 --> 00:32:02.995 I don't like it. But I'm happy you like it, right? But to me, 00:32:03.215 --> 00:32:07.035 I don't quite see who the audience is for Land Trek. Just like I don't quite 00:32:07.035 --> 00:32:11.395 see who the audience is for FreeBSD, or BSD in general, because. 00:32:12.541 --> 00:32:15.741 It is it's like hard mode for computers. 00:32:15.741 --> 00:32:20.021 It's like it's like ignoring all of the improvements that we are benefiting 00:32:20.021 --> 00:32:26.101 from and stacking in the last two or three years that are bringing us massive 00:32:26.101 --> 00:32:28.001 productivity gains and scale. 00:32:28.501 --> 00:32:31.741 I mean, again, I'm not trying to crap on it as a technical achievement. 00:32:31.741 --> 00:32:33.481 And if you enjoy it, I think that's great. 00:32:34.261 --> 00:32:36.621 But it's still solving problems. 00:32:37.661 --> 00:32:43.541 That we were solving 30 years ago. And I really struggle with why I would want that. 00:32:44.201 --> 00:32:50.321 I wonder how much of this is BSD versus Nix, and how much would you compare, 00:32:50.401 --> 00:32:55.061 say, if you were trying to just run a stock Debian server versus a stock-free BSD? 00:32:55.061 --> 00:32:59.401 I don't think it changes it much because there's still 20 years of technological 00:32:59.401 --> 00:33:04.081 innovations that would be in Debian that are not present in BSD. Like what? 00:33:04.481 --> 00:33:07.381 Well, take the Beehive, for example. 00:33:07.541 --> 00:33:12.321 It's a great product in its own. but they're too late and it's too little. 00:33:12.361 --> 00:33:17.001 And all they're doing is backfilling functionality that all the other operating 00:33:17.001 --> 00:33:18.341 systems around them built up. 00:33:18.941 --> 00:33:21.561 And now they're backfilling. Okay, well, they have it now. Great. 00:33:21.741 --> 00:33:24.261 But why would I want it on this small niche weird product? 00:33:24.481 --> 00:33:28.701 Like this was a valid argument 30 years ago, right? 00:33:28.881 --> 00:33:34.061 But 30 years of Linux evolution have taken place now and they've only pulled in a few things. 00:33:34.381 --> 00:33:37.801 Like ZFS is their strongest feature. That's their strongest thing. 00:33:37.941 --> 00:33:42.641 But Linux can do that, right? Then the next strongest thing is jails and Capsum. 00:33:42.821 --> 00:33:46.761 But Linux can do that with namespaces and things like SC Linux. 00:33:47.081 --> 00:33:49.701 And I think then you're just arguing from a default then. 00:33:50.301 --> 00:33:53.901 Well, I'm arguing for what is, who's the audience? 00:33:55.650 --> 00:33:56.410 Who's the customer? 00:33:56.710 --> 00:34:00.510 Well, I mean, I think you have to consider how much you want to consider the 00:34:00.510 --> 00:34:02.670 learning a blocker versus just the outcome. 00:34:02.930 --> 00:34:06.790 Because I would argue you can make a very nice free BSD server that from the 00:34:06.790 --> 00:34:08.470 outside you would not have any idea. 00:34:08.710 --> 00:34:12.650 But then you have something that only a small niche of the market can support. 00:34:12.850 --> 00:34:14.810 That's true, but that's exactly what Linux was. 00:34:15.450 --> 00:34:19.050 But like I said, we've had 30 years where now there is a free alternative that 00:34:19.050 --> 00:34:20.270 doesn't have that downside. 00:34:20.490 --> 00:34:23.830 Like 20, 30 years ago when they were both at the starting line, 00:34:23.990 --> 00:34:26.150 that made sense. That argument made sense now. 00:34:26.410 --> 00:34:29.390 But now we have something that's free. We have something that's widely supported. 00:34:29.470 --> 00:34:31.470 We have something that has a deep expertise base on. 00:34:31.670 --> 00:34:34.850 We have something that's very flexible that can do all the things that BSD can 00:34:34.850 --> 00:34:39.350 do in a way that is better supported by an industry, either be something like 00:34:39.350 --> 00:34:40.870 RHEL or just at the employment base. 00:34:40.950 --> 00:34:42.690 There are things that that matters for, but that's not everything. 00:34:43.670 --> 00:34:44.790 Okay, but what is that? 00:34:44.970 --> 00:34:47.210 I mean, it's a similar thing like, why would you run NixOS, right? 00:34:47.290 --> 00:34:50.870 You can't get RHEL support for NixOS. We're locking ourselves out of this entire support base. 00:34:50.890 --> 00:34:54.610 That is at least Linux. And I would argue there is still a wider base there. 00:34:54.610 --> 00:34:58.090 But what I'm trying to say is if you're looking at the two bases and you're 00:34:58.090 --> 00:35:01.170 going to build like infrastructure for your company, a virtualization infrastructure, 00:35:01.290 --> 00:35:04.990 or you're going to build something that runs in containers or something that runs on the cloud. 00:35:06.870 --> 00:35:11.010 I don't know why you would choose BSD. And it feels like, just like BSD is kind 00:35:11.010 --> 00:35:14.890 of sitting out all of the AI stuff, and just like it sat out all of the cloud 00:35:14.890 --> 00:35:21.270 stuff, it's like it just, once again, is just not relevant in the conversation. 00:35:21.510 --> 00:35:27.170 I think you're right at a certain scale, but I think there's a certain amount 00:35:27.170 --> 00:35:30.370 of room and value to the diversity, especially in a week where we're getting 00:35:30.370 --> 00:35:32.810 constant vulnerabilities in the Linux kernel. 00:35:32.810 --> 00:35:40.450 because the thing about BSD is I think it's simpler and more elegant than Linux. 00:35:41.090 --> 00:35:45.050 If you're going to compare, I would think it feels more like a closury or like 00:35:45.050 --> 00:35:47.650 a well-crafted ecosystem and Linux is kind of the node. 00:35:48.330 --> 00:35:52.810 Linux is JavaScript to that. I would agree, or I would say BSD feels more intentionally engineered. 00:35:52.930 --> 00:35:56.730 Yes. And so I think if you value that and if you have full scope over what you 00:35:56.730 --> 00:35:59.550 want to operate and you don't need the esoteric features of Linux, 00:35:59.830 --> 00:36:01.110 those can be a liability. 00:36:01.110 --> 00:36:05.570 and the simplicity and the security of the FreeBSD system, say, 00:36:05.630 --> 00:36:08.130 where you can do jails and capsicum and things like that. 00:36:08.930 --> 00:36:12.890 It's not that Linux can't do it, but Linux has to kludge together multiple systems 00:36:12.890 --> 00:36:14.390 in a much more complicated way. 00:36:15.030 --> 00:36:18.410 And so I think for a particular goal that is well-fit on both systems, 00:36:18.570 --> 00:36:22.270 you may have a simpler and easier to reason about setup if you understand both 00:36:22.270 --> 00:36:24.190 systems well on the BSD side. 00:36:24.330 --> 00:36:26.710 Couldn't a cynical take be that you're arguing just that, well, 00:36:26.810 --> 00:36:29.210 it's security through obscurity, basically? 00:36:29.210 --> 00:36:34.890 No not it's not about obscurity it's it's there's less going on so it's easier to get correct. 00:36:35.470 --> 00:36:39.030 Okay i dig that and i i think because what this whole thing i'm trying to be 00:36:39.030 --> 00:36:43.010 like who's the customer who's the market who's the audience who's the user yeah i'm, 00:36:43.634 --> 00:36:45.374 An embedded firewall device, maybe? 00:36:45.754 --> 00:36:48.714 Yeah, I think folks may be building appliances, right? We've seen a lot of use 00:36:48.714 --> 00:36:51.714 cases for that kind of stuff. I think you see it, folks use it to run some of 00:36:51.714 --> 00:36:53.674 like the core DNS infrastructure of the internet. 00:36:53.914 --> 00:36:56.914 You have situations where you have like a clear goal and you could solve it 00:36:56.914 --> 00:36:58.214 in a variety of valid ways. 00:36:58.334 --> 00:37:02.294 And then there can be value to just having the diversity or a stack that like 00:37:02.294 --> 00:37:05.354 doesn't have all that extra stuff that Linux brings in in terms of complexity 00:37:05.354 --> 00:37:07.914 where that core goal is very well supported. 00:37:08.054 --> 00:37:10.514 And then you might have it in a very simple, clean, elegant way. 00:37:10.674 --> 00:37:10.894 Okay. 00:37:11.074 --> 00:37:14.354 Now where I think the Nix OS side for me, this makes it more complicated. 00:37:14.514 --> 00:37:18.034 But if I'm comparing it to something like running a traditional Ubuntu or RHEL 00:37:18.034 --> 00:37:21.394 server or something like that, that's where I see that there's a lot of elegance. 00:37:21.554 --> 00:37:23.794 So think about encryption and disk maintenance. 00:37:24.854 --> 00:37:28.774 We kind of have to stack all of these pieces together. They don't really know 00:37:28.774 --> 00:37:32.414 about each other. You have the Lux side, you have the device mapper part of the kernel. 00:37:32.874 --> 00:37:38.154 On the BSD side, they have Geom and Gelly, and it's all one tightly integrated 00:37:38.154 --> 00:37:43.394 system that understands all of the pieces. It won't let you kind of abuse it in the same way. 00:37:43.394 --> 00:37:44.134 Let me tell you about my iPhone. 00:37:46.714 --> 00:37:50.334 I mean, it's like, okay, that's great, but you're describing an iPhone, 00:37:50.414 --> 00:37:52.294 you're describing a Mac, you're describing the Apple approach, 00:37:52.334 --> 00:37:55.754 and I like the x86 ecosystem, I like the Linux and Open ecosystem. 00:37:56.154 --> 00:37:58.614 And I do prefer putting together my own solution that better address it. 00:37:58.614 --> 00:38:00.254 Well, it's not that you can't put it together. It's actually, 00:38:00.334 --> 00:38:06.254 in a way, it's more composable. It's like composability because it's intentionally designed in that way. 00:38:08.278 --> 00:38:09.938 But you're so limited in your options. 00:38:10.078 --> 00:38:14.898 Yeah, and that's true. So I think the market fit is maybe then where those core 00:38:14.898 --> 00:38:18.418 things that it does in a rock style, like they thought about that case. 00:38:18.538 --> 00:38:20.618 And it's kind of like, right, we had ePoll on Linux. 00:38:20.738 --> 00:38:23.278 They had KQ, which was like better thought out. Now, IO, Euring, 00:38:23.478 --> 00:38:26.778 there's been changes, but they just, they got a better API implemented. 00:38:27.078 --> 00:38:31.038 Now, maybe fewer things target it, right? But for the things that do and target 00:38:31.038 --> 00:38:34.838 it well, if that's the core of what you need, 00:38:35.178 --> 00:38:37.058 then maybe that's what you, and that's where it's like you're talking about 00:38:37.058 --> 00:38:39.938 ZFS is one of those situations if that's the core of what you're doing i think 00:38:39.938 --> 00:38:43.238 there are other sort of services or for a long time networking there were particular 00:38:43.238 --> 00:38:46.698 networking use cases that bsd was at linux has caught up a lot there but there 00:38:46.698 --> 00:38:48.058 can be situations like that. 00:38:48.058 --> 00:38:53.218 So i could that would explain really then why the desktop experience is just 00:38:53.218 --> 00:38:58.038 so god-awful rough yeah um and i i maybe drew's gonna have to censor this if 00:38:58.038 --> 00:39:00.638 you're listening on the bootleg version you might want to skip ahead a minute 00:39:00.638 --> 00:39:04.378 here in a second i'm going to play this clip because i was recording this using 00:39:04.378 --> 00:39:06.598 nomad bsd which is one of the BSDs I tried, 00:39:06.638 --> 00:39:08.918 and I really like it. I think it's actually one of the better ones. 00:39:09.118 --> 00:39:12.238 It's a live BSD session that has persistent storage. 00:39:12.698 --> 00:39:17.798 But even what I would consider to be one of the top-tier user experiences still 00:39:17.798 --> 00:39:21.938 has a god-awful user experience, and my mouse was dying. 00:39:22.298 --> 00:39:26.318 I was having so many problems. I was really at my limit when I got to the screen. 00:39:26.698 --> 00:39:30.558 Even the nicest distributions miss the smallest usability thing. 00:39:30.758 --> 00:39:37.158 Like, I have to choose a keyboard layout, and it starts with user-defined and then Arabic. 00:39:39.318 --> 00:39:42.158 How many of these users in these countries are even downloading this? 00:39:42.298 --> 00:39:44.138 And the entire interface is in English right now. 00:39:44.318 --> 00:39:47.558 So why not just English, right? So then you get to English. 00:39:47.958 --> 00:39:51.038 Well, my goodness, how many versions of – okay, all right, there's U.S. 00:39:51.118 --> 00:39:52.658 There's a dozen different English versions. 00:39:52.658 --> 00:39:54.918 Okay, well, how many versions of U.S. English keyboards are there? 00:39:55.138 --> 00:39:55.238 Thirty. 00:39:55.718 --> 00:39:57.098 Well, oh, oh. 00:39:58.454 --> 00:40:02.014 Oh, no, not that one. Okay, no, I'm not Dvorak. 00:40:02.314 --> 00:40:07.174 Macintosh? No, I don't think I'm. Am I Norman? Am I symbolic? 00:40:08.014 --> 00:40:13.014 I must be international. So I'm not Euro or Workman or whatever. 00:40:13.334 --> 00:40:15.554 Oh, no, I don't think I'm Russian US. 00:40:19.334 --> 00:40:19.734 Okay. 00:40:21.014 --> 00:40:21.874 None of them are right. 00:40:21.894 --> 00:40:22.374 I guess I go with that one? 00:40:22.594 --> 00:40:22.854 No, no. 00:40:22.914 --> 00:40:27.554 Like, why am I doing this? And then look at this. More keyboard stuff. 00:40:28.154 --> 00:40:30.834 Why is there so much keyboard stuff? 00:40:31.854 --> 00:40:36.394 The entire interface is in U.S. English. It doesn't make sense. 00:40:37.034 --> 00:40:41.174 It's just, it's this little stuff that's just, and it's everywhere. 00:40:42.514 --> 00:40:47.994 I was having a rough time, boys. I was having a rough time. I don't feel so bad anyway. 00:40:49.514 --> 00:40:52.334 Yeah, so it's just, and it's like, even when you get to the good stuff, 00:40:52.414 --> 00:40:57.674 and what you're saying, it must be the actual use cases are mostly headless. 00:40:57.894 --> 00:41:02.194 They're mostly in hardware or in file storage or in DNS or something. 00:41:02.414 --> 00:41:06.434 Specific intentional devices. Yeah, the one that always stuck out with me was 00:41:06.434 --> 00:41:10.434 I think a couple of years ago, Netflix decided to share that they were using 00:41:10.434 --> 00:41:11.714 BSD for their infrastructure. 00:41:12.154 --> 00:41:16.034 Right, right. That was interesting. Okay, someone's using it for something real. 00:41:16.034 --> 00:41:17.034 And I know a lot of people are. 00:41:17.114 --> 00:41:20.534 They're just not necessarily as public with it. But that one always sticks out to me. 00:41:20.554 --> 00:41:22.614 That is always the use case we've heard for the last 10 years. 00:41:22.754 --> 00:41:23.774 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. 00:41:23.934 --> 00:41:24.054 Yeah. 00:41:25.243 --> 00:41:28.083 Oh, you're right. So I'm guessing Wes must have had a great time. 00:41:28.223 --> 00:41:29.303 So BSD love and Wes over here. 00:41:29.303 --> 00:41:31.123 We've got to tally up your points here. 00:41:31.263 --> 00:41:32.943 Chris. Oh, you're right. Sorry, I forgot. 00:41:33.203 --> 00:41:35.243 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to let you go that easily. 00:41:35.583 --> 00:41:36.523 I forgot about the F-ing points. 00:41:36.523 --> 00:41:40.723 Okay, let's try to do this in a quick, fast way. So level one, 00:41:40.943 --> 00:41:42.903 I think you got everything. So seven points. 00:41:42.983 --> 00:41:44.123 Yep, seven points. 00:41:44.263 --> 00:41:47.983 It took you all week to boot it, but like me, you got somewhere else, so that's good. 00:41:48.983 --> 00:41:52.403 Daily Driver, you got graphics going in a browser, I'm assuming. Yeah. 00:41:52.703 --> 00:41:53.203 And sound. 00:41:53.803 --> 00:42:00.043 Wow. Okay. Sound going. And did you mount like a USB or some kind of external? 00:42:00.083 --> 00:42:04.003 I did not. I mean, well, I couldn't verify. It may have mounted, 00:42:04.163 --> 00:42:07.583 but that was also when the system went into a horrible boot loop and I never got it back up. 00:42:07.583 --> 00:42:09.763 Well, it specifically said you had to prove and you can't prove. 00:42:09.923 --> 00:42:12.403 So I'm taking that one away from you. Did you create your own user? 00:42:13.143 --> 00:42:14.163 Oh, of course. 00:42:14.343 --> 00:42:15.623 Okay. Well, I don't know. 00:42:15.803 --> 00:42:16.863 Now, what did you name the user? 00:42:20.723 --> 00:42:23.483 Magnolia called his jail poop. He said it was very late at night. 00:42:24.263 --> 00:42:25.823 Jailbreaker would be a good one for a BSD box. 00:42:26.782 --> 00:42:29.422 Okay, you might have moved into the power category then. 00:42:29.702 --> 00:42:31.842 Yeah, because I did a full OS update. 00:42:32.002 --> 00:42:32.282 Nice. 00:42:32.682 --> 00:42:33.582 Full OS update. 00:42:33.682 --> 00:42:37.322 Nice. And I had to install multiple packages. By the way, EE, 00:42:37.622 --> 00:42:39.362 not a bad little editor by default. 00:42:39.602 --> 00:42:44.082 Not a bad little editor. And I also had to stop and start numerous services, including SSH. 00:42:44.762 --> 00:42:47.402 But were you able to SSH into your system? 00:42:47.882 --> 00:42:49.282 Yes. I got SSH. 00:42:49.422 --> 00:42:49.622 All right. 00:42:49.962 --> 00:42:55.622 And I never, ever used any AI assistants in this. Never used any AI. 00:42:55.822 --> 00:42:56.422 Nicely done. 00:42:56.622 --> 00:42:56.662 Nicely done. 00:42:57.102 --> 00:42:59.662 Nicely done. It was like, once I had SSH up, I was like, I could. 00:42:59.742 --> 00:43:00.182 You could. 00:43:01.462 --> 00:43:04.042 Did you write a shell script and execute it? 00:43:04.822 --> 00:43:09.662 Okay. So I edited a shell script, but I did not create the shell script. 00:43:09.702 --> 00:43:11.362 And I think it was already executable. So I'm going to say no. 00:43:11.502 --> 00:43:13.022 The wording says write a short. 00:43:13.122 --> 00:43:14.262 Yeah, I'll say no. 00:43:14.402 --> 00:43:16.202 Okay. No point for you on that one. 00:43:16.442 --> 00:43:16.842 Yeah. 00:43:16.842 --> 00:43:19.122 All right. Bonus round. You ready for this one? 00:43:19.722 --> 00:43:20.182 Mm-hmm. 00:43:20.402 --> 00:43:24.942 Did you create and start a BSD jail or equivalent? No. 00:43:26.002 --> 00:43:29.302 No, but that you're, you know, beehive might've. 00:43:29.462 --> 00:43:31.742 Yeah, I know, I know. I tried to get beehive going. 00:43:31.902 --> 00:43:35.702 But it didn't work. So, so you basically get zero in this entire category. 00:43:37.244 --> 00:43:40.984 For all we know, it worked. For all we know. 00:43:42.424 --> 00:43:45.624 Okay, well, tell us next week if you can prove it. But for now, 00:43:45.804 --> 00:43:47.084 I won't give you any of those points. 00:43:47.444 --> 00:43:48.584 All right, so... 00:43:48.584 --> 00:43:51.624 He got the pity points, but he don't give pity points. 00:43:51.804 --> 00:43:52.664 No, no, no, no. 00:43:53.624 --> 00:43:57.224 Here's the point where you can ask for some kind of bonus point somewhere. 00:43:57.344 --> 00:43:58.884 Did you run this anywhere crazy? 00:44:03.004 --> 00:44:06.364 I mean, I'm going to give you a point because you tried a lot of different BSDs. 00:44:06.364 --> 00:44:09.244 and some i've never heard of it's fine what is my total 00:44:09.244 --> 00:44:13.744 what's okay you got seven points plus uh five six seven another seven that's 00:44:13.744 --> 00:44:21.744 14 plus another uh two horses eight do this plus uh zero so uh you know yeah 00:44:21.744 --> 00:44:28.464 you don't have to say how do you feel about uh oh 22 points oh. 00:44:28.464 --> 00:44:32.784 I feel pretty good about that although i think wes is gonna beat me although 00:44:32.784 --> 00:44:34.644 i think pj is gonna beat all of us but all right, 00:44:35.851 --> 00:44:36.611 Wes Payne. 00:44:36.951 --> 00:44:37.311 Yeah. 00:44:37.951 --> 00:44:39.251 Can you beat 22 points? 00:44:39.391 --> 00:44:40.751 Well, I guess let's find out. 00:44:41.591 --> 00:44:47.471 So how did your experimentation go? Did you get it up and running as a daily 00:44:47.471 --> 00:44:49.231 driver with a desktop environment web browser? 00:44:49.371 --> 00:44:53.931 I did. Yes, indeed. Yeah, I got... Well, first I played a tiny bit around with 00:44:53.931 --> 00:44:58.291 Dragonfly and a VM, but it didn't seem like it had been updated super recently. 00:44:58.491 --> 00:45:02.111 I just wanted to play more with Hammer, too, because it's kind of an interesting file system. 00:45:02.231 --> 00:45:04.971 Yeah. And that's one of the neat things about it is it has Hammer. 00:45:04.971 --> 00:45:07.211 And they've done a lot of work on their, like, SMP stuff. 00:45:08.211 --> 00:45:10.091 I wanted to give Hello Systems a try. 00:45:10.191 --> 00:45:10.491 Right. 00:45:10.711 --> 00:45:12.871 But it doesn't look like they've updated since 2024. 00:45:13.351 --> 00:45:13.571 Yeah. 00:45:13.791 --> 00:45:17.511 So, ultimately, I went back to FreeBSD, and I tried a couple of things. 00:45:17.691 --> 00:45:21.171 Started out with Awesome, and then switched over to Sway. 00:45:22.011 --> 00:45:25.691 I think that was probably a good move. Pretty straightforward to get going. 00:45:25.811 --> 00:45:28.391 Yep. I was going to try Plasma, but I just didn't quite get there. 00:45:28.611 --> 00:45:30.711 I imagine you created a user account. 00:45:30.931 --> 00:45:32.111 Oh, yeah. I got to have a WES user. 00:45:32.191 --> 00:45:33.531 Did you mount an external disk? 00:45:33.991 --> 00:45:38.051 Yeah. Yeah. plugged in a USB drive you keeping track that worked totally fine 00:45:38.051 --> 00:45:41.411 I'm attempting to I did get audio working I think that's all 14. 00:45:41.411 --> 00:45:43.071 Points I have a question before you continue. 00:45:43.071 --> 00:45:44.291 Yeah at. 00:45:44.291 --> 00:45:45.351 What point in the week was this, 00:45:46.758 --> 00:45:49.038 Like currently where you are here, getting the audio going? 00:45:50.538 --> 00:45:51.178 The Wednesday? 00:45:51.418 --> 00:45:54.238 Yeah, I think you had it going early on because I got. 00:45:54.238 --> 00:45:55.158 Awesome going last. 00:45:55.158 --> 00:45:56.098 Week in the first week. 00:45:56.158 --> 00:45:58.358 You and I didn't even have anything booted by this point, Chris. 00:45:59.698 --> 00:46:02.978 Yeah, I was able to piggyback on sort of the setup I had because I saved all 00:46:02.978 --> 00:46:05.938 the comp files when I destroyed the VM that I made the first time and then kind 00:46:05.938 --> 00:46:07.838 of let that help that bootstrap the one I installed. 00:46:07.878 --> 00:46:08.498 That's not fair. 00:46:08.838 --> 00:46:11.678 All right, so he's got all of level one, including the bonus point. 00:46:11.898 --> 00:46:15.738 I did also get Duaz going. I don't need a point for that, but I like Duaz. 00:46:15.778 --> 00:46:16.698 I think it's kind of nice. 00:46:16.758 --> 00:46:20.198 All right, let's see how you did as a power user, Wes. Did you update your packages? 00:46:20.298 --> 00:46:20.958 I did, yes. 00:46:21.138 --> 00:46:26.378 Okay, did you perform a update installed packages with the native tool and perform 00:46:26.378 --> 00:46:28.078 a full OS update? Did you do a full OS update? 00:46:28.098 --> 00:46:29.978 I don't know if I did. I might not have. 00:46:30.138 --> 00:46:30.358 Whoa. 00:46:30.358 --> 00:46:32.098 That's kind of a weird one, because if you're updating the packages. 00:46:32.158 --> 00:46:36.518 Yeah, I didn't intentionally try to, but I did update, and I did install a bunch of stuff. 00:46:36.678 --> 00:46:36.858 Okay. 00:46:37.238 --> 00:46:38.298 And I did get ports going. 00:46:38.998 --> 00:46:41.758 Okay, all right. I think that's probably, that's probably good. 00:46:41.758 --> 00:46:44.838 And then, yeah, SSH was not a problem. But services, you know. 00:46:45.238 --> 00:46:45.818 RC comp stuff. 00:46:45.818 --> 00:46:46.018 You could just stop there. 00:46:46.198 --> 00:46:48.378 Wes. you could keep going. 00:46:48.378 --> 00:46:51.738 And then i did make a shell script and then i but i was trying out my hand because 00:46:51.738 --> 00:46:55.278 they use seashell by default and so i was trying my hand at writing a seashell 00:46:55.278 --> 00:46:59.278 script which i'm not very good at so i did run i was able to you know print 00:46:59.278 --> 00:47:03.018 some stuff out and you know write it to a file and like that nice so i'm not 00:47:03.018 --> 00:47:06.398 a not as good at bash which i'm also not that great at but. 00:47:06.398 --> 00:47:08.878 All right so i think that's, 00:47:10.326 --> 00:47:11.226 all the points. 00:47:11.226 --> 00:47:16.846 For level three no well what about the services getting a service to start at boot that was yeah i. 00:47:16.846 --> 00:47:17.726 Got nginx going. 00:47:17.726 --> 00:47:21.846 Yeah okay all right well did you lose parts anywhere did you go to. 00:47:21.846 --> 00:47:23.406 Jail west did you start a jail. 00:47:23.406 --> 00:47:26.986 Yes i did get some i got an nginx going into jail as well because i figured 00:47:26.986 --> 00:47:28.766 that seemed that seemed like a good thing to run did you. 00:47:28.766 --> 00:47:30.666 Try to access the service from a host. 00:47:30.666 --> 00:47:34.726 Uh yeah i was able to expose that to my local home network. 00:47:34.726 --> 00:47:36.186 That's okay that's. 00:47:36.186 --> 00:47:37.126 Like a i. 00:47:37.126 --> 00:47:41.846 Did not get a vm going but i did get zfs boot environments working which was cool. 00:47:41.846 --> 00:47:45.706 Well you're definitely definitely in the beast beastie whisper category with 00:47:45.706 --> 00:47:48.686 me but i think it beat me i feel like you you kind of blew it out there. 00:47:48.686 --> 00:47:54.006 Well um it was easier to track how many points west missed which was only two 00:47:54.006 --> 00:47:58.246 so i think he did pretty good that that looks like i don't know depending if 00:47:58.246 --> 00:48:04.726 you think the math on our bsd challenge was correct or not something like 28 or 29 yeah. 00:48:04.726 --> 00:48:07.446 I'm gonna say 29 i think that's what i tracked was 29. 00:48:07.446 --> 00:48:13.106 For west so that's pretty couple questions for you west yeah did you run anywhere 00:48:13.106 --> 00:48:15.266 interesting or what surprised you the most. 00:48:16.654 --> 00:48:20.574 Hmm no i just tried it on the i got the nuck going with free bsd i didn't end 00:48:20.574 --> 00:48:23.154 up that's where i ran engine x i didn't really end up doing more on it i was 00:48:23.154 --> 00:48:26.214 thinking it could be fun to play with so i might leave it around with free bsd 00:48:26.214 --> 00:48:29.354 for a little bit oh no we'll see it'll be next we've lost him. 00:48:29.354 --> 00:48:31.934 Lost him he's gone we need a. 00:48:31.934 --> 00:48:32.334 New host. 00:48:32.334 --> 00:48:33.334 Everybody if you're willing. 00:48:35.054 --> 00:48:37.694 It's interesting to see i also wanted to try the 00:48:37.694 --> 00:48:40.414 linux compatibility but i didn't quite get there either um so 00:48:40.414 --> 00:48:43.454 it's interesting to see let's sort of see the frequency and 00:48:43.454 --> 00:48:46.454 the cadence of how they port over that stuff and like what those environments 00:48:46.454 --> 00:48:49.334 look like and how updated they are or not and their 00:48:49.334 --> 00:48:52.794 work to port like i wasn't lucky because like the i the i915 stuff 00:48:52.794 --> 00:48:55.934 works for this laptop and that is well supported in free bsd but 00:48:55.934 --> 00:48:58.614 not all are then you kind of have to learn you know oh where do 00:48:58.614 --> 00:49:01.634 i go to find out like what was it most recently synced over from the linux side 00:49:01.634 --> 00:49:05.334 and like that kind of stuff i was surprised to see that like wayland is in better 00:49:05.334 --> 00:49:09.674 shape not everywhere not on all graphics tax and it doesn't work very well or 00:49:09.674 --> 00:49:13.994 at all really in qemu right now seemingly but that was a thing that before this 00:49:13.994 --> 00:49:19.454 I hadn't even I just assumed we would all be using an X exclusively yeah yeah um so I find it I'm, 00:49:20.620 --> 00:49:25.640 I know it's coming on as a stand earlier. Like, I don't know if I have a lot of places for it. 00:49:25.700 --> 00:49:29.320 And I think Nix has made it harder because there's just so much more on top 00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:32.680 that it's like, like maybe if it was, like Nix BSD would almost be closer. 00:49:32.680 --> 00:49:35.740 Like at that point, if it was just sort of, it swapped out the underlying implementation 00:49:35.740 --> 00:49:38.840 and that was fine from the config, then like that would make it more likely 00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:42.220 I would run it because I'm almost, the Linux is now almost an implementation detail. 00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:44.200 Not really, because it's Linux Unplugged. We love Linux here, 00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:48.000 but so it's almost like I'm also sort of in your camp where I'm like, 00:49:48.380 --> 00:49:52.540 I find a lot of it very elegant and appealing and fascinating but i don't quite 00:49:52.540 --> 00:49:56.780 know where i would put it yeah yeah i would like to have a place to put it i 00:49:56.780 --> 00:49:57.640 just don't know where that is. 00:49:57.640 --> 00:50:01.740 That was where i was at the last time we gave it a go and this time we gave 00:50:01.740 --> 00:50:06.440 it a go it feels even less relevant than it did more than a year ago we tried 00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:08.520 it but that's just my personal opinion just. 00:50:08.520 --> 00:50:13.220 Because you felt like maybe nothing changed or you didn't notice anything changing in this limited use. 00:50:13.220 --> 00:50:16.360 It was a collection of things like that yeah yeah yeah. 00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:19.220 It does seem like there has been some more effort i just think they're early 00:50:19.220 --> 00:50:22.660 Like we've seen over the past year or so more foundation work towards the desktop 00:50:22.660 --> 00:50:24.160 and like some some things like that. 00:50:24.340 --> 00:50:26.580 So did any of you like manually connect to Wi-Fi? 00:50:27.513 --> 00:50:29.673 Yeah, that was the first time I got Wi-Fi working. 00:50:29.753 --> 00:50:32.973 It's fine. It's basically like the process was 15. 00:50:32.973 --> 00:50:35.153 Like the WPA supplicant type stuff, right? 00:50:35.173 --> 00:50:41.453 It was fine, but it was a whole effing, just bring this interface up, 00:50:41.553 --> 00:50:42.253 this is in this interface. 00:50:42.413 --> 00:50:46.173 It's like, okay, I remember doing this 15 years ago, and it's fine, 00:50:46.193 --> 00:50:51.773 but it just seems like there could have at some point in time been tooling created to make, you know. 00:50:52.193 --> 00:50:56.993 It's like, acknowledge that Wi-Fi is actually a thing, but they don't. 00:50:56.993 --> 00:51:01.373 They just assume if you need Wi-Fi, then, I don't know, it's just, that's all of BSD. 00:51:01.733 --> 00:51:03.273 Well, and that's where you were kind of talking about, right? 00:51:03.353 --> 00:51:06.673 Like, maybe it would, if it was like a desktop sort of workstation thing that 00:51:06.673 --> 00:51:07.933 had Ethernet, and there's just... 00:51:07.933 --> 00:51:10.593 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or if you're going with something built for the desktop, 00:51:10.753 --> 00:51:13.233 like your Ghost BSD, or something like that. They do a much better job with 00:51:13.233 --> 00:51:14.293 that sort of stuff, but... 00:51:14.293 --> 00:51:17.733 You are right that it kind of, it does, especially on the desktop side, 00:51:17.973 --> 00:51:19.973 feel like going back in time on Linux World. 00:51:19.973 --> 00:51:25.213 Well done, 29 points is, that's going to be pretty darn hard to beat there, 00:51:25.313 --> 00:51:29.413 PJ. do you think you do you think you scored more than 29 in the old BSD challenge, 00:51:33.133 --> 00:51:38.293 oh really I count okay I'll take BJ's score if you want to I was I was also 00:51:38.293 --> 00:51:39.573 counting while I listened I. 00:51:39.573 --> 00:51:40.433 Was lazy mathin. 00:51:43.273 --> 00:51:45.493 Oh okay BJ's. 00:51:45.493 --> 00:51:46.033 Coming in with. 00:51:46.033 --> 00:51:48.173 Fire yeah I get better let's. 00:51:48.173 --> 00:51:48.373 Go 00:52:07.693 --> 00:52:08.133 yeah, 00:52:10.513 --> 00:52:13.513 i give you the full point i love the bsd native part yeah. 00:52:13.513 --> 00:52:14.533 Yeah that's fine because. 00:52:14.533 --> 00:52:18.793 It didn't say you had to you know mount something that wasn't native so you. 00:52:18.793 --> 00:52:19.593 Get you get the whole thing, 00:52:34.124 --> 00:52:34.664 Nice. 00:52:34.784 --> 00:52:35.484 Good choice. 00:52:44.644 --> 00:52:47.784 You got a web browser going, you did system updates, all that good stuff. 00:52:56.924 --> 00:52:58.044 Net installer, yep. 00:52:58.404 --> 00:52:58.684 Nice. 00:53:04.124 --> 00:53:08.344 Oh, cool. I wanted to. That was all I wanted to do. I did not. 00:53:09.424 --> 00:53:10.284 Tell us more. 00:53:14.724 --> 00:53:16.484 Oh, that's fantastic. 00:53:17.284 --> 00:53:22.084 So StarCraft, Jeff and I had a side deal. Whoever could get StarCraft working first. 00:53:22.344 --> 00:53:27.024 And definitely Jeff beat me, like, by days and days. I'm not even, geez. 00:53:27.244 --> 00:53:27.704 Well done, Jeff. 00:53:27.704 --> 00:53:30.244 So extra point, I say, for him, because I failed. 00:53:35.124 --> 00:53:36.864 27 Brent giving away points. 00:53:37.164 --> 00:53:38.404 He just hands them out. 00:53:40.884 --> 00:53:41.404 No. 00:53:42.084 --> 00:53:42.604 What? 00:53:42.924 --> 00:53:43.124 Wow. 00:53:49.404 --> 00:53:50.724 All right, now you're just showing. 00:53:50.724 --> 00:53:52.744 He is just showing off. This is awesome. 00:53:53.124 --> 00:53:57.564 I nuked my install, and he's sitting there editing video? Jeez. 00:53:59.264 --> 00:54:03.464 Oh, wow. Okay. I don't know. That's the kind of suffering I remember. 00:54:03.464 --> 00:54:04.844 Your own challenge over there. 00:54:08.304 --> 00:54:09.904 Great. Next is going to be the VNC challenge. 00:54:13.404 --> 00:54:17.944 Remote desktop challenge. Good back. Yeah. All right. Okay. You got SSH going. Good. Good. 00:54:23.820 --> 00:54:27.240 Uh, you got jail going? Did you go to jail? 00:54:31.940 --> 00:54:32.700 Oh, nice. 00:54:34.980 --> 00:54:39.000 All right. That's the bonus points. So 26 is what you're going with. 00:54:39.240 --> 00:54:40.780 How did we get to 29 for a while? 00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:41.360 I have no idea. 00:54:41.640 --> 00:54:46.440 I don't actually know. Uh, yeah, the math is rough on this one. 00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:51.400 Oh, 27. Okay. All right. All right. Now 27. 00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:53.280 Yeah, he should get some bonus. Some line bonus. 00:54:53.460 --> 00:54:56.460 All right. You want to give them a bonus for, I think, I think a bonus for the 00:54:56.460 --> 00:54:58.640 desktop environment choice and a bonus for the gaming. 00:54:58.760 --> 00:54:58.980 Yeah. 00:54:59.040 --> 00:54:59.980 Hardware acceleration too. 00:55:01.160 --> 00:55:02.520 Yeah. Bump them up to 30. 00:55:02.640 --> 00:55:07.340 I think that puts them at 30. Oh my God, PJ. Well done, sir. Well done. 00:55:10.680 --> 00:55:11.060 30. 00:55:11.580 --> 00:55:12.740 So will you keep it around? 00:55:13.940 --> 00:55:14.320 Yeah. 00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:16.680 Yeah. Yeah. 00:55:39.901 --> 00:55:42.041 Nice. Uh-huh. 00:55:42.401 --> 00:55:42.721 Mm-hmm. 00:55:54.941 --> 00:56:05.161 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:56:05.181 --> 00:56:05.601 Right. 00:56:08.221 --> 00:56:08.921 Yeah. 00:56:21.561 --> 00:56:24.861 yeah i think you know after being hard on it i will add uh 00:56:24.861 --> 00:56:27.781 if you kind of do have a soft spot 00:56:27.781 --> 00:56:30.501 for the way the systems used to work and it and it 00:56:30.501 --> 00:56:34.181 works well for you you you could really get somewhere nice with like a gerwish 00:56:34.181 --> 00:56:38.381 desktop or an xfce desktop and free bsd and you could probably just settle in 00:56:38.381 --> 00:56:41.921 for a long while and you'd really have a very functional system as long as you 00:56:41.921 --> 00:56:46.881 didn't need large scale compatibility with new and exciting applications or 00:56:46.881 --> 00:56:49.041 hardware yeah or hardware yeah. 00:56:50.961 --> 00:56:54.061 Ooh nice is that 31. 00:56:55.381 --> 00:56:56.401 Well done sir. 00:56:56.401 --> 00:57:01.021 Oh yeah well did you be able to run anything in there Linux program wise just basic stuff or, 00:57:03.061 --> 00:57:03.701 uh-huh, 00:57:09.601 --> 00:57:11.081 did you did you. 00:57:11.081 --> 00:57:13.661 Run it on some interesting hardware or anywhere interesting, 00:57:20.162 --> 00:57:22.582 But no problems as far as hardware goes. Jeez. 00:57:24.902 --> 00:57:30.762 Now, if you want to write in or boost in and advocate for why maybe you could beat 30 points. 00:57:30.962 --> 00:57:33.662 Or why Brent should get extra bonus points. 00:57:34.122 --> 00:57:35.482 Yeah, boy, oh boy. 00:57:35.702 --> 00:57:39.122 We did have someone who I don't know if we had in our earlier feedback summary 00:57:39.122 --> 00:57:41.682 who sent us like a detailed PDF. 00:57:42.082 --> 00:57:45.462 Oh, that was so great. I meant to call that. 00:57:45.462 --> 00:57:47.542 Yeah, user LKF, I think Lars. 00:57:48.002 --> 00:57:48.362 Thank you. 00:57:48.362 --> 00:57:54.662 This document, it's like, I don't know, 10 pages and very well typeset LaTeX document. 00:57:54.682 --> 00:57:55.382 Beautiful report. 00:57:55.682 --> 00:58:01.822 Detailing all of the stuff they did. They have their own score. They might have. 00:58:02.062 --> 00:58:05.722 Yeah, that was genuinely, there were some really nice write-ups that came in. 00:58:05.802 --> 00:58:10.742 We had to pop through them quick for obviously time purposes, but man. 00:58:12.202 --> 00:58:13.322 We were really impressed. 00:58:13.542 --> 00:58:16.562 So, you know, Brentley, I just want to say, get excited, get ready. 00:58:16.562 --> 00:58:21.922 It is time, my friend, because this week is Red Hat Summit. 00:58:32.542 --> 00:58:36.502 Have fun out there, Brent. At Red Hat Summit 2026. Looking forward to it. 00:58:36.882 --> 00:58:40.322 As the loser of the BSD Challenge, you will be our correspondent. 00:58:40.542 --> 00:58:41.302 The least winner. 00:58:49.442 --> 00:58:54.482 Yeah. And, you know, being that you went last year, you're already kind of up 00:58:54.482 --> 00:58:57.602 to speed on what the game is, so it should be no problem at all. 00:58:57.602 --> 00:58:59.022 Well, thanks, guys. I feel honored. 00:58:59.882 --> 00:59:00.282 Congratulations. 00:59:00.482 --> 00:59:00.842 Thank you. 00:59:03.622 --> 00:59:06.082 Hey, if you'd like to support the show, you can send us a boost. 00:59:06.182 --> 00:59:07.862 Fountain.fm makes it really easy. 00:59:07.982 --> 00:59:10.622 There's also AlbiHub, which you can connect to lots of different projects and 00:59:10.622 --> 00:59:13.862 podcasting apps. And please do boost it and tell us about your router setup. 00:59:14.122 --> 00:59:16.422 I'm building a new home router, brand new little baby. 00:59:16.962 --> 00:59:21.002 And it's a very special project. And I'd like to review as many ideas from the 00:59:21.002 --> 00:59:24.742 hive mind as possible. So do boost those in. It'd be a great way to support the show. 00:59:25.342 --> 00:59:29.742 And, you know, maybe a great chance to try out a boost if you haven't done it 00:59:29.742 --> 00:59:31.742 yet. I don't know. Support the show with a boost. 00:59:35.384 --> 00:59:40.824 Well, we have quite the baller boost here that I am hesitating to read now that 00:59:40.824 --> 00:59:43.864 I read the first line or two. But it is for a row of McDucks. 00:59:45.904 --> 00:59:47.004 22,222 sets. 00:59:47.464 --> 00:59:50.444 Hey, is that a row of McDucks? Is that what it is? Or is it an Aflac? 00:59:50.464 --> 00:59:51.344 Which one would you like? 00:59:51.564 --> 00:59:53.184 I like the Aflac every time. 00:59:53.184 --> 00:59:56.524 Let's do it. There you go. Let's do an Aflac for once. But also, 00:59:56.644 --> 01:00:00.364 why not? That's what I say. He does, too. 01:00:00.364 --> 01:00:03.624 So our baller booster here is uh pj 01:00:03.624 --> 01:00:06.504 and he says uh bsd me 01:00:06.504 --> 01:00:12.084 calling it right now i beat brent at least 25.5 points at the time of writing 01:00:12.084 --> 01:00:16.464 this excluding bonus points install the linux comp hat stuff but i couldn't 01:00:16.464 --> 01:00:21.784 run a game due to libgl issues but i was able to cheroot into an ubuntu jammy 01:00:21.784 --> 01:00:23.984 instance and get nano going i. 01:00:23.984 --> 01:00:25.064 Mean that's worth it right there. 01:00:25.064 --> 01:00:26.944 Very fancy nano. 01:00:26.944 --> 01:00:29.784 I did not Actually, I was just stuck with EE. Did you try it? 01:00:30.084 --> 01:00:31.184 No, I didn't, actually. 01:00:31.684 --> 01:00:32.604 Editor, it's not bad. 01:00:32.864 --> 01:00:37.864 Yeah, I just was- He writes other details about how he beat me in various ways. 01:00:38.024 --> 01:00:39.664 He also got some zonotic going. 01:00:39.744 --> 01:00:45.684 Yeah, that's true. Super tux cart. So, good job, PJ. You win this round. 01:00:45.924 --> 01:00:48.684 At least he sent a little sugar along for that salt in the bowl. 01:00:48.704 --> 01:00:49.124 Yeah, that's right. 01:00:49.444 --> 01:00:55.384 I appreciate the boost. Turd Ferguson comes in with 22,222 SATs. 01:00:59.806 --> 01:01:03.726 The history of 1-800-ITS-UNIX is a fun one. 01:01:03.966 --> 01:01:04.166 What? 01:01:04.326 --> 01:01:09.206 BSDI put ITS-UNIX on a toll-free number. AT&T took it personally. 01:01:09.746 --> 01:01:13.366 BSD got lawsuited into limbo and gave Linux time to take off. 01:01:14.346 --> 01:01:15.906 1-800-ITS-UNIX. 01:01:15.906 --> 01:01:16.166 Huh. 01:01:16.466 --> 01:01:18.146 And, yeah. Really? 01:01:19.486 --> 01:01:20.006 No. 01:01:20.186 --> 01:01:24.186 I guess so. I do remember there being a massive lawsuit that AT&T launched. 01:01:24.806 --> 01:01:28.746 Yeah, so, okay. Here's what Google says. 1-800-ITS-UNIX was a marketing phone 01:01:28.746 --> 01:01:33.326 number used by Berkeley System Software Design, BSD-I-NC, in the early 90s to 01:01:33.326 --> 01:01:35.346 sell their BSD-386 operating system. 01:01:35.786 --> 01:01:40.466 It was at the center of a major legal battle between AT&T Unix Systems Laboratories 01:01:40.466 --> 01:01:44.726 over the trademark infringement, forcing the company to stop using the number. 01:01:45.306 --> 01:01:47.166 That's like back when lawsuits were fun. 01:01:48.966 --> 01:01:51.606 Yeah, I don't know. It doesn't sound too fun. It doesn't sound too fun. 01:01:52.006 --> 01:01:56.666 Yeah, I mean, I suppose we've had our own fun of eternal lawsuits on the Linux side, haven't we? 01:01:56.746 --> 01:01:57.586 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 01:01:57.786 --> 01:02:04.686 Well, our dear Odyssey Westrebusin with 5,000 sats. Just to say, live meep. 01:02:04.766 --> 01:02:06.146 Hello, Odyssey. Thank you. 01:02:06.286 --> 01:02:06.726 Thank you. 01:02:06.886 --> 01:02:07.566 Appreciate that. 01:02:08.106 --> 01:02:15.306 We've got a Moonanite here with, oh, cleverly, 6,666 sats for episode 666. 01:02:18.966 --> 01:02:23.446 Maybe instead of calling mysterious binaries magic boxes or, 01:02:23.466 --> 01:02:27.426 quote, blobs, We can call them, quote, danger zones. 01:02:27.946 --> 01:02:28.306 Hmm. 01:02:29.266 --> 01:02:30.686 I like that idea. 01:02:30.946 --> 01:02:33.846 Yeah. Yeah. It comes with some bundled danger zones. 01:02:34.886 --> 01:02:38.106 It's actually perfect. It might be too exciting sounding, though. 01:02:38.226 --> 01:02:40.846 Yeah. It's a little edgy. I want that. I want the danger zone. 01:02:40.846 --> 01:02:42.686 Yeah, right. I love any danger zones. This is yours, Seth. 01:02:43.166 --> 01:02:47.386 Right. Autobrains here with a Spaceballs boost. One, two, three, four, five sats. 01:02:51.563 --> 01:02:55.183 Well, we agree with this. I love our community. We have so many diverse perspectives 01:02:55.183 --> 01:02:56.923 from around the world. That's our super strength. 01:02:57.103 --> 01:02:59.743 I'd love it if we could find a way to keep growing, get more women in STEM on 01:02:59.743 --> 01:03:02.803 board, get more young people and old people and every age in between people, 01:03:02.823 --> 01:03:05.363 all sorts of background. Let's get them all in this awesome e-tent. 01:03:05.543 --> 01:03:06.823 Well, I love that idea. 01:03:07.023 --> 01:03:08.503 Yeah, the community can always play a role in that. 01:03:08.743 --> 01:03:13.683 Agree completely. Yeah. Wes and I did convert a rather aged gentleman who was 01:03:13.683 --> 01:03:17.003 very interested in learning about Linux back at LinuxFest Northwest. 01:03:17.003 --> 01:03:19.243 So that was a great conversation it. 01:03:19.243 --> 01:03:24.243 Really was and also i have to say this week just watching all the bsd challenge 01:03:24.243 --> 01:03:28.203 conversation happening in our matrix room was very fun very. 01:03:28.203 --> 01:03:29.043 Entertaining i probably. 01:03:29.043 --> 01:03:33.583 Should have did less of that and more on my challenge but here we are. 01:03:33.583 --> 01:03:37.463 Yeah the brent vicarious challenge well uh 01:03:37.463 --> 01:03:40.223 wh 2025 comes in with 01:03:40.223 --> 01:03:44.003 5 000 sets here is 01:03:44.003 --> 01:03:47.443 a plus one to ai segments i'd like to see some comparisons on 01:03:47.443 --> 01:03:50.603 all the new stuff coming out like say open claw versus hermes 01:03:50.603 --> 01:03:57.143 and etc this is also a time traveler boost going all the way back to 2015 kind 01:03:57.143 --> 01:04:00.283 of funny to hear chris remark that he finds the raspberry pi interesting but 01:04:00.283 --> 01:04:04.603 had no idea he would use one along with bopey saying by episode 600 we'd have 01:04:04.603 --> 01:04:08.983 a bunch of phones everywhere 2015 was an optimistic time oh. 01:04:08.983 --> 01:04:11.143 Yeah interesting yeah the. 01:04:11.143 --> 01:04:13.123 Show's in the back catalog shows a bit of a time. 01:04:13.123 --> 01:04:17.363 Capsule that way it is indeed. Thank you, WH. Appreciate you. 01:04:18.263 --> 01:04:22.923 We've got Bearded Zero here with 6,999 cents. 01:04:25.905 --> 01:04:30.365 They say last episode should have been titled Control-C, Control-F. 01:04:31.045 --> 01:04:34.385 Thanks for all the AI talk and everything else on the show. 01:04:34.765 --> 01:04:36.465 Well, Control-F would be find, right? 01:04:37.525 --> 01:04:38.205 Usually, right? 01:04:38.445 --> 01:04:39.305 Well, copy, fail. 01:04:39.725 --> 01:04:43.985 You know what I say? Oh, I see. I say never paste. 01:04:44.345 --> 01:04:47.345 Just fill that copy, that paste, that pinboard up. Fill it up, 01:04:47.385 --> 01:04:48.925 fill it up, whatever. Fill it up, never paste. 01:04:49.065 --> 01:04:53.825 I have a observation about how copy pasting is failing for me recently. 01:04:53.825 --> 01:04:56.485 I don't know if you guys have experienced this. 01:04:56.605 --> 01:05:00.245 I've been using open code quite a bit in my workflows and it just like copies 01:05:00.245 --> 01:05:01.425 anything you highlight. 01:05:01.605 --> 01:05:04.545 And so I turned that on in all my terminals cause like I'm not an animal, 01:05:04.545 --> 01:05:07.645 but now if I use any other program, it's just broken. 01:05:07.825 --> 01:05:10.625 I can't copy paste for the love of it. 01:05:10.625 --> 01:05:11.045 Wes knows. 01:05:11.205 --> 01:05:11.425 Yep. 01:05:11.725 --> 01:05:15.565 Wes knows that I'd be sitting here at the station here in the studio and I'm 01:05:15.565 --> 01:05:17.685 sitting there trying to cop and I highlight stuff and it's not copying. 01:05:17.685 --> 01:05:19.065 I'm like, what is going on? There's gotta be a section. 01:05:19.285 --> 01:05:20.945 Right? We gotta find some kind of. 01:05:21.065 --> 01:05:24.665 I mean, I mean, be a gentleman and turn on copy with highlight. For goodness sake. 01:05:25.345 --> 01:05:30.245 Plug for the kitty terminal. Adversary 17 is here with 8,192 sayads. 01:05:35.087 --> 01:05:38.007 Adversaries like the beginning of last week's member bootleg feed, 01:05:38.247 --> 01:05:43.067 and he says, one day, one day, I'll make it to LinuxFest Northwest. We sure hope so. 01:05:43.207 --> 01:05:43.647 We do. 01:05:43.807 --> 01:05:44.367 That would be great. 01:05:45.367 --> 01:05:48.647 Ronnie comes in with 6,666. 01:05:51.287 --> 01:05:53.907 Thanks for all the work. Number of the beast is here. 01:05:54.127 --> 01:05:55.927 Hey, for us, it's a good look. 01:05:56.007 --> 01:05:58.827 And I don't know if this was intentional or not, but they also happened to be 01:05:58.827 --> 01:06:00.707 at six seconds into the podcast. 01:06:00.987 --> 01:06:02.127 Whoa, come on. 01:06:04.547 --> 01:06:06.447 do you think they knew we knew that yes. 01:06:06.447 --> 01:06:07.567 No but bonus points. 01:06:07.567 --> 01:06:14.647 Magnolia mayhem came in with 5 000 sats maximum points and he sent us the link 01:06:14.647 --> 01:06:16.027 to his write-up long story short 01:06:16.027 --> 01:06:19.147 i got it running in my car and achieved everything but a virtual machine. 01:06:19.147 --> 01:06:21.227 Crushing it as usual, 01:06:24.027 --> 01:06:29.907 biggest mac has boosted in with a devil boost 666 satoshi's, 01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:36.500 Oh, hey, it's Brian from Boise. For this challenge, I used a Rescue HP Elite 01:06:36.500 --> 01:06:39.400 Desk and went with FreeBSD 14.4. 01:06:39.600 --> 01:06:44.720 I did most of the work over SSH, set up XFCE for my GUI, even got the sound working in Firefox. 01:06:45.040 --> 01:06:45.400 Nice. 01:06:45.620 --> 01:06:51.560 I grabbed a couple screenshots and a screen record with XFCE for screen shooter. 01:06:52.060 --> 01:06:56.780 Then I got Bastille set up and decided to try to get Pinchflat working. 01:06:57.120 --> 01:07:01.020 Took some manual edits to the Elixir source code to get the SQL playing nice, 01:07:01.020 --> 01:07:02.700 but it's running incredibly well now. 01:07:02.780 --> 01:07:02.940 Whoa, they got it. 01:07:03.280 --> 01:07:03.760 Awesome. 01:07:04.140 --> 01:07:07.760 Interesting that they got it. And another Pinchflat user out there. Pinchflat users unite. 01:07:08.200 --> 01:07:09.200 They continue here. 01:07:09.400 --> 01:07:11.160 Hey, they met Erlang virtual machine crushing it. 01:07:11.300 --> 01:07:11.860 Yeah, I guess so. 01:07:12.180 --> 01:07:16.500 Pinchflat is now serving the Linux Unplugged channel via mini DLNA. 01:07:16.820 --> 01:07:19.140 The best part? It's arrived to reboot. 01:07:19.680 --> 01:07:20.760 Yeah, really. 01:07:21.220 --> 01:07:24.960 After everything was stable, I jumped to 15.0 at 1 a.m. this morning. 01:07:25.180 --> 01:07:28.920 Everything, jails and all, came back up. I didn't expect to build a snappy YouTube 01:07:28.920 --> 01:07:32.280 box for the house when I started. but here we are not. 01:07:32.280 --> 01:07:32.800 Included in. 01:07:32.800 --> 01:07:38.200 My story i created a small zfs status shell script and i did mount a usb drive 01:07:38.200 --> 01:07:42.160 with all that i think i can say i got around 30 points for this challenge. 01:07:42.160 --> 01:07:43.280 Yeah i. 01:07:43.280 --> 01:07:49.840 Think so as free bsd likes to say oh it's cut off i'm so sorry it just says 01:07:49.840 --> 01:07:52.420 does this loo well yes it does loo you did very. 01:07:52.420 --> 01:07:55.240 I think it loo's well i think it loo's very well i think that's easily you 01:07:55.240 --> 01:07:58.700 30 points big well very impressive huh 01:07:58.700 --> 01:08:02.500 well well well some 01:08:02.500 --> 01:08:05.220 people really crushed it i'm very impressed i'm glad it's sticking 01:08:05.220 --> 01:08:08.200 for some of you too and i hope you enjoy it very much there's some of the audience 01:08:08.200 --> 01:08:11.440 and users right there thank you everybody who supported the show with a boost 01:08:11.440 --> 01:08:15.060 we had 17 of you stream them sats collectively you sat streamers you stacked 01:08:15.060 --> 01:08:20.560 20,340 sats for this episode when you combine that with our boosters we squeaked 01:08:20.560 --> 01:08:24.480 out 128,318,000 satoshis, 01:08:29.350 --> 01:08:32.290 We really do appreciate it very much. In fact, when you boost, 01:08:32.450 --> 01:08:35.850 a little bit goes to B, a little bit goes to Wes, a little bit goes to editor 01:08:35.850 --> 01:08:39.430 Drew and Brent and the podcast developer of the app, all of that. 01:08:39.870 --> 01:08:43.530 So it spreads around a little bit, and it's a great way to support us directly. 01:08:43.530 --> 01:08:46.830 Or, of course, you can just become a member, and we appreciate that, too. 01:08:48.710 --> 01:08:50.070 Well, we have too many picks. 01:08:50.550 --> 01:08:51.530 How did that happen? 01:08:51.730 --> 01:08:56.590 How does that happen? Let's do the AI-related one first, and then the rest will 01:08:56.590 --> 01:08:59.990 all click into place. So, of course, one of the problems when using AI services 01:08:59.990 --> 01:09:04.090 like OpenAI or Anthropic is you might be worried about your sensitive data going 01:09:04.090 --> 01:09:05.210 to these cloud-based services. 01:09:05.410 --> 01:09:08.850 In fact, I know some people avoid cloud AI in general just because they don't 01:09:08.850 --> 01:09:09.890 want to send their data to it. 01:09:10.370 --> 01:09:15.190 But, Wes, you have been experimenting with various proxy layers that can be 01:09:15.190 --> 01:09:19.710 used to, I guess, I don't know, sensor, isolate, remove private data? 01:09:19.710 --> 01:09:23.010 Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, in a lot of situations, right, 01:09:23.090 --> 01:09:27.190 maybe the LLM needs to know that there is like an API key there or something 01:09:27.190 --> 01:09:30.530 like that. If it's really crucial for like a templating thing or a placeholder, 01:09:30.930 --> 01:09:33.450 you know, you should already have solved that. 01:09:33.550 --> 01:09:36.390 But if you didn't, and there is a mistake, you still don't want that key ending 01:09:36.390 --> 01:09:39.490 up in, you know, being cached, used for training, all that stuff. 01:09:39.950 --> 01:09:42.910 And so enter, well, I mean, there's a lot of stuff I've been playing with some 01:09:42.910 --> 01:09:45.810 of my own projects, but there's a more than a couple out there, 01:09:46.050 --> 01:09:48.830 sort of a composable ad hoc just kind of do that piece. 01:09:48.830 --> 01:09:53.890 and one of them is Kiji Proxy, an intelligent privacy layer for AI APIs. 01:09:53.890 --> 01:09:58.810 It automatically detects and masks personal identifiable information in request 01:09:58.810 --> 01:10:02.650 to AI services, ensuring your sensitive data never leaves your control. 01:10:03.567 --> 01:10:08.167 And yeah, I think this one also, it has, so I've, and the ones I've used so 01:10:08.167 --> 01:10:11.747 far have mostly been sort of like entropy detection or sort of more standard 01:10:11.747 --> 01:10:17.107 programming techniques to look for things like PII or API keys or that kind of stuff. 01:10:17.427 --> 01:10:21.167 But this one has the ability to use like a small model on its own to try to 01:10:21.167 --> 01:10:22.447 classify that stuff automatically. 01:10:22.887 --> 01:10:26.267 Interesting. So you put this between you and the upstream cloud provider. 01:10:26.387 --> 01:10:30.487 You configure your local client to talk to this and it proxies the request up 01:10:30.487 --> 01:10:31.747 to say OpenAI or Anthropic. 01:10:31.747 --> 01:10:36.147 and during that time it's looking for personal identifiable information like 01:10:36.147 --> 01:10:38.867 email address social security number credit cards etc exactly, 01:10:39.547 --> 01:10:45.287 API keys there's also it offers a Chrome extension so if you're using ChatGPT 01:10:45.287 --> 01:10:50.087 Cloud or Gemini in the web it can also kick in for that as well. 01:10:50.087 --> 01:10:54.207 There's also a desktop app for the Mac I think comes with a systemd service 01:10:54.207 --> 01:10:58.447 you can run it in Docker if you want it's got pretty nice logging it's all local 01:10:58.447 --> 01:11:03.147 they use a Distilbert transformer model using the Onyx front time to sort of 01:11:03.147 --> 01:11:05.067 do that local ML for the classification side. 01:11:05.527 --> 01:11:08.747 So, yeah, one way to, you know, try and ameliorate some of the downsides and 01:11:08.747 --> 01:11:10.307 risks of using some of these services. 01:11:10.507 --> 01:11:13.847 Yeah, and like you said, there are several of these. This one's mostly Python 01:11:13.847 --> 01:11:18.647 and Go, and it's licensed under the Apache 2.0 license. 01:11:18.827 --> 01:11:21.007 Yeah, give it a try. Maybe you have a use and let us know how it goes. 01:11:21.667 --> 01:11:26.747 Next up, Portbook, which is a local Rust web dashboard. 01:11:27.868 --> 01:11:32.588 that auto-discovers and labels your HTTP services running on local host ports. 01:11:32.768 --> 01:11:37.328 It does live updates, project root detection, live error, and dead classification. 01:11:38.468 --> 01:11:42.428 So why spend the time setting up the dashboard when you can have the dashboard, 01:11:42.708 --> 01:11:45.728 auto-discover everything running on your machine, label, setify, 01:11:46.108 --> 01:11:48.348 classify, blah, blah, blah. Do it all for you. 01:11:49.128 --> 01:11:51.428 And, you know, maybe you've got a couple of dev environments running, 01:11:51.488 --> 01:11:54.368 you've got a few services, you don't quite remember what's running on that thing. 01:11:54.548 --> 01:11:57.168 And, you know, sure, SS or Nesda can do some of that. 01:11:57.168 --> 01:12:00.068 It would have been useful this morning when we were trying to hunt down our rogue DHCP server. 01:12:00.148 --> 01:12:01.928 Yes, it would. So get yourself PortBook. 01:12:02.308 --> 01:12:06.288 Yeah. PortBook. And it is MIT license. 01:12:06.568 --> 01:12:08.788 This feels like one of those tools I didn't realize I needed. 01:12:09.468 --> 01:12:09.768 Yeah. 01:12:09.768 --> 01:12:10.228 Now I do. 01:12:10.328 --> 01:12:12.888 Yeah. It's only like a five megabyte single binary. 01:12:13.268 --> 01:12:16.308 It does look like it might be pretty new. I think it wasn't created too long 01:12:16.308 --> 01:12:19.148 ago. So early days. But give it a try. Maybe you can help shape it. 01:12:19.488 --> 01:12:22.648 Also, great support for JSON output. All that kind of stuff as well. 01:12:22.708 --> 01:12:24.948 So if you just want something that reports on the back end, doesn't stand up 01:12:24.948 --> 01:12:28.688 a web UI, you can create like a JSON report. All right, and then our last... 01:12:29.635 --> 01:12:32.395 is sleeve which is what i was hoping to 01:12:32.395 --> 01:12:35.935 get to which is what i was building towards uh so i could talk about a little 01:12:35.935 --> 01:12:38.615 bit a little bit because it looks pretty neat you could think of it as like 01:12:38.615 --> 01:12:43.655 proxmox for beehive it's a management plane for beehive a lightweight open source 01:12:43.655 --> 01:12:48.995 management plane that sits on top of free bsd jails and beehive and zfs storage 01:12:48.995 --> 01:12:50.675 in a modern web interface, 01:12:51.335 --> 01:12:55.115 designed to give you a streamlined ui with um you know all the stuff you would 01:12:55.115 --> 01:12:57.455 kind of hope and want, at least they're striving for. 01:12:57.615 --> 01:13:00.495 Yeah, and they've got some cool sort of example deployments in some of their 01:13:00.495 --> 01:13:03.975 guides, like a Technidium DNS server in a jail, Jellyfin in a jail, 01:13:04.115 --> 01:13:06.835 Rocky Linux jail, if you want to use that Linux compatibility mode, 01:13:06.875 --> 01:13:09.815 and then you get sort of this cool management layer on top. 01:13:09.975 --> 01:13:13.435 Yeah, and it is a nice UI with resources, you know, overviews, dashboards. 01:13:13.535 --> 01:13:15.235 Yeah, modern, svelte JavaScript stuff. 01:13:15.395 --> 01:13:20.675 Nice, easy, EI, EI, geez, I'm getting sleepy, UI to create virtual machines, 01:13:20.675 --> 01:13:24.555 and what I think is really great about it is that it's sitting on top of FreeBSD, 01:13:24.635 --> 01:13:27.675 right? It's not like its own weird, although I think they do offer an ISO, 01:13:27.835 --> 01:13:28.875 but like it just runs on top. 01:13:28.895 --> 01:13:29.535 Right on top. Yeah. 01:13:30.152 --> 01:13:33.292 You know, Chris, I probably would have got a couple extra points had you linked 01:13:33.292 --> 01:13:36.412 us Sylvie earlier in the week, so no thanks. 01:13:36.412 --> 01:13:40.412 You think it's Sylvie? I like Sleeve because it's like it's a sleeve for your VM. 01:13:41.472 --> 01:13:42.432 You need to write to him. 01:13:42.592 --> 01:13:44.192 Sylvie has been nice to me, so. 01:13:44.752 --> 01:13:47.952 Okay, all right. And it is BSD2 licensed. 01:13:48.632 --> 01:13:48.952 Appropriate. 01:13:49.052 --> 01:13:52.352 Yeah, as you might expect. As you might expect. We'll have links to all of that 01:13:52.352 --> 01:13:56.452 in the show notes. Our show notes are over at linuxunplugged.com slash 666. 01:13:56.812 --> 01:13:59.532 Or, of course, you can go to jupiterbroadcasting.com where you'll find this 01:13:59.532 --> 01:14:02.532 show. and all the great shows over at jupiterbroadcasting.com. 01:14:02.672 --> 01:14:07.732 If you want more around the show, we do have some really great metadata in multiple ways, Wes Payne. 01:14:07.792 --> 01:14:12.392 Yeah, that's right. How about cloud chapters and how about VTT diarized transcripts? 01:14:12.452 --> 01:14:13.212 Is that good enough for you? 01:14:13.372 --> 01:14:18.012 I mean, from that, you can do quite a bit. Those are all in our feed as well 01:14:18.012 --> 01:14:21.832 as a video version, all in there as part of the podcasting 2.0 namespace. 01:14:22.372 --> 01:14:24.792 Multiple clients support that. But even if your client doesn't, 01:14:24.912 --> 01:14:28.872 if you know how to pull up an RSS feed in your browser, you can find the URLs 01:14:28.872 --> 01:14:30.952 to stuff. You know, it's right there. 01:14:31.312 --> 01:14:35.912 And of course, we are also live on Sundays. Make it a Linux Tuesday on a Sunday. 01:14:39.832 --> 01:14:44.052 That's right. Join us over at jblive.tv or jblive.fm. And of course, 01:14:44.132 --> 01:14:47.632 that mumble room with our virtual lug is going every single episode. 01:14:47.812 --> 01:14:50.352 And they just give it that live vibe along with our chat room. 01:14:50.552 --> 01:14:54.092 Shout out to our members who make every single episode this year possible. 01:14:54.512 --> 01:14:58.232 And don't forget the website, linuxunplugged.com. also has our Mumble info, 01:14:58.592 --> 01:15:00.612 our Matrix info, and a whole lot more. 01:15:00.732 --> 01:15:04.172 If you can't join us next Sunday, we will see you Tuesday on a Sunday when we 01:15:04.172 --> 01:15:08.032 release, usually in the evening, on Sunday, to make it a Tuesday. 01:15:08.272 --> 01:15:10.412 Right? It's easy. What don't you understand? 01:15:10.872 --> 01:15:13.892 You can find our live times at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar. 01:15:14.092 --> 01:15:17.332 Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of Your Unplugged Program. 01:15:17.532 --> 01:15:19.652 And we'll see you right back here next Sunday.