WEBVTT 00:00:11.495 --> 00:00:16.075 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:16.275 --> 00:00:16.875 My name is Wes. 00:00:16.995 --> 00:00:17.715 And my name is Brent. 00:00:18.495 --> 00:00:22.555 Hello, gentlemen. Coming up on the show this week, it was a race against time 00:00:22.555 --> 00:00:24.035 to leave Texas Linux Fest. 00:00:24.195 --> 00:00:29.575 We had a date at System76 to get the inside scoop on the Cosmic Desktop and its future. 00:00:29.775 --> 00:00:33.715 And then we had a chance to chat with John Seeger, the VP of Engineering at 00:00:33.715 --> 00:00:35.875 Canonical, fresh off the 2510 release. 00:00:36.035 --> 00:00:39.835 But we had to make it back to the studio in time for our live chat. 00:00:39.835 --> 00:00:43.295 We'll tell you all about that and how it went and play those chats. 00:00:43.455 --> 00:00:47.175 And then we'll round out the show with some great booths, some picks, and a lot more. 00:00:47.755 --> 00:00:51.095 So before we get there, let's say time-appropriate greetings to our live virtual 00:00:51.095 --> 00:00:54.735 log. Hello, Mumble Room. Hey, Chris. Hello, Brent. Hello, hello, hello. 00:00:55.555 --> 00:00:59.375 Hola, bienvenidos. Hello. You know, if you want to join our Mumble Room, 00:00:59.535 --> 00:01:01.295 if you're listening out there, it's pretty fun. 00:01:01.815 --> 00:01:05.335 It's got a live vibe. Details are jupiterbroadcasting.com slash mumble. 00:01:05.835 --> 00:01:09.655 It's an open invite. We'll have a conversation with anyone. We have an open 00:01:09.655 --> 00:01:13.395 mumble room. We just check your mic to make sure everything's sounding good enough to go on air. 00:01:13.595 --> 00:01:17.895 And then you can come and chat with us during the show even or during the pre 00:01:17.895 --> 00:01:20.315 and post show, which is generally when the mumble room is really going. 00:01:20.595 --> 00:01:23.515 And it's a lot of fun. That's jupiterbroadcasting.com slash mumble. 00:01:24.355 --> 00:01:27.935 And a big good morning to our friends at Defined Networking. 00:01:28.055 --> 00:01:31.795 Go to defined.net slash unplugged. Check out Managed Nebula. 00:01:32.135 --> 00:01:37.435 It's a decentralized VPN built on the amazing Nebula platform that Wes and I 00:01:37.435 --> 00:01:40.315 are huge fans of. and we're going to convert Brent soon. 00:01:40.495 --> 00:01:40.835 Oh, yeah. 00:01:41.095 --> 00:01:42.455 We're coming for you, Brent. 00:01:42.655 --> 00:01:43.575 Watch out, Moose. 00:01:43.675 --> 00:01:44.675 I'm open to it. 00:01:44.915 --> 00:01:50.375 I know you are. I'm just teasing. Unlike traditional VPNs, Nebula has a decentralized 00:01:50.375 --> 00:01:52.315 design, so your network is resilient. 00:01:52.415 --> 00:01:55.415 If you manage it yourself for your enterprise, for a home lab, 00:01:55.575 --> 00:02:00.255 or maybe even a global enterprise, or you can take advantage of their totally 00:02:00.255 --> 00:02:05.715 managed product with 100 devices, totally free, when you go to define.net slash unplugged. 00:02:06.075 --> 00:02:10.575 Nebula is really something special. It was originally developed in 2017 to securely 00:02:10.575 --> 00:02:12.375 connect Slack's global infrastructure. 00:02:12.575 --> 00:02:16.775 I mean, I'm talking all over the world, everybody's data, some of the most important 00:02:16.775 --> 00:02:19.415 companies in the world, has to be rock solid and secure. 00:02:19.555 --> 00:02:23.115 It had to meet those goals, that flexibility, that decentralization, 00:02:23.255 --> 00:02:26.915 that security from day one. That was 2017. That's where we were at in 2017. 00:02:27.515 --> 00:02:31.775 It has grown incredibly. Now we have the managed product, clients for end users. 00:02:33.315 --> 00:02:37.875 Rivians on the highway are running Nebula. I mean, I'm talking industrial-grade stuff. 00:02:38.015 --> 00:02:41.355 And if you want to, you can completely own the entire stack. 00:02:41.495 --> 00:02:43.895 Or you can take advantage for your friends, your family, yourself, 00:02:44.075 --> 00:02:47.035 of their totally managed product with 100 hosts, absolutely free, 00:02:47.095 --> 00:02:48.755 no credit card required. 00:02:48.975 --> 00:02:54.775 Go check it out. Go to defined.net slash unplugged. Redefine your VPN experience and check out Nebula. 00:02:55.215 --> 00:02:57.795 Defined.net slash unplugged. 00:02:59.635 --> 00:03:01.235 Well, we have made it back from 00:03:01.235 --> 00:03:05.515 our escape from Texas, So I guess not to spoil it, but we did make it. 00:03:05.955 --> 00:03:11.735 And it was such a great trip. And before we get into the story and our trip 00:03:11.735 --> 00:03:16.975 to Denver to chat with the System 76 crew, I want to just share the team's gratitude 00:03:16.975 --> 00:03:18.795 to our audience who made this possible. 00:03:19.355 --> 00:03:24.155 You got us down there and you got us back. And we didn't have any incidents. 00:03:24.455 --> 00:03:29.335 Nobody blew out a tire. Nobody got a ticket. There was no fender bender. 00:03:30.095 --> 00:03:33.255 I mean, do you know the numbers, Wes? That's what we drove collectively. 00:03:33.255 --> 00:03:35.715 I mean, we drove collectively a ton of miles. 00:03:36.235 --> 00:03:42.355 Oh, yeah. Oh, here. Well, we've got them live up there if you just want the miles on the tracker. 00:03:42.695 --> 00:03:45.995 Oh, yeah, right. Texas tracker is still live because Brent's actually still on the road. 00:03:46.175 --> 00:03:53.295 That's right. So you and I, Team Bigfoot, we drove a total path distance of 4,732 miles. 00:03:53.735 --> 00:03:58.295 And Moose there, who's not done yet, is at 3,416. 00:03:59.035 --> 00:04:03.955 It's really awesome. We had a chance to connect with a great community down 00:04:03.955 --> 00:04:09.615 there, but then it wasn't even initially on our plan, but because we were working 00:04:09.615 --> 00:04:11.515 for the audience and not a particular sponsor, 00:04:11.815 --> 00:04:16.195 we were able to do a last-minute schedule with System76 to swing by and get 00:04:16.195 --> 00:04:18.755 a hands-on demonstration of the latest and greatest with Cosmic. 00:04:19.315 --> 00:04:24.075 I just want to underscore, not only did it mean that our entire intention was 00:04:24.075 --> 00:04:27.195 always just to create great content for you, but we had a kind of flexibility 00:04:27.195 --> 00:04:28.735 that I just don't think would have been there. 00:04:28.995 --> 00:04:33.335 And so we got to do something really special. And it meant we were on a very tight timeline. 00:04:33.715 --> 00:04:38.815 Okay, so the goal was to be out by 9.30. It's 9.29 a.m. Oh, we're doing pretty 00:04:38.815 --> 00:04:39.995 good. What are you doing right now? 00:04:40.135 --> 00:04:44.535 Well, I got to unplug the van and put the solar panel in the bag. 00:04:44.595 --> 00:04:46.115 I noticed your bags aren't loaded either. 00:04:46.255 --> 00:04:49.975 Well, I staged them beside the van. Probably got to feed the kitties a little bit of food. 00:04:50.155 --> 00:04:52.635 Well, they are jumping around like they want some food. Uh-huh. 00:04:52.935 --> 00:04:54.875 Yeah. I don't know about you, Wes, but I'm kind of ready to go. 00:04:55.035 --> 00:04:56.975 Yeah, let's hit the road. We got miles to go today. 00:04:58.705 --> 00:05:00.825 You and i had it down at this point yeah. 00:05:00.825 --> 00:05:01.865 Well practiced i think. 00:05:01.865 --> 00:05:05.325 Yeah and and to be fair brent has a little bit more to take care of oh yeah. 00:05:05.325 --> 00:05:08.265 We were doing lean and mean and that was definitely an advantage for us. 00:05:08.265 --> 00:05:12.305 Brent's got animals to take care of a van to take care of and a brent to take care of. 00:05:12.305 --> 00:05:16.305 It was clear in that moment uh the difference between the types of trips we 00:05:16.305 --> 00:05:20.765 had had up to this point because i was you know let's say meandering my way 00:05:20.765 --> 00:05:25.465 to texas and uh very happily so and you guys were just jetting down there and 00:05:25.465 --> 00:05:30.105 this is the collision of those two uh philosophies and it was clear that we 00:05:30.105 --> 00:05:31.125 were going to have to figure it out. 00:05:31.945 --> 00:05:36.285 And just as we're ready to go, I mean really ready to go, Brent informs us that 00:05:36.285 --> 00:05:38.385 he's had a little issue that he hasn't told us about. 00:05:39.185 --> 00:05:42.645 You got all those belts? I think so. Maybe. 00:05:43.565 --> 00:05:47.485 I don't hear anything. No, it's only when I really give it gas. 00:05:48.405 --> 00:05:52.265 When you give it the onions? Yeah, like if I'm pulling out of a parking lot or trying to pass you. 00:05:54.445 --> 00:06:00.165 So maybe. Since when the engine's really red? Yeah, maybe I'll go in there and give a couple of kicks. 00:06:10.265 --> 00:06:17.285 Well, if I were to guess, I would say alternator. Because it's coming from the bottom corner. 00:06:20.345 --> 00:06:23.745 This was a theme for the day. This should have been our indication of how the 00:06:23.745 --> 00:06:27.025 day was going to go because we didn't want to push the van too hard. 00:06:27.025 --> 00:06:30.205 We weren't in a particular time crunch for that day because we just had to get 00:06:30.205 --> 00:06:33.305 from Austin to Amarillo. So we had, you know, only a seven hour drive day. 00:06:34.345 --> 00:06:37.745 So we thought maybe we would make it in decent time, get to Amarillo, 00:06:37.845 --> 00:06:42.025 do some grocery shopping, stock the Airbnb. That's not exactly how things went. 00:06:42.665 --> 00:06:44.645 Yeah, we just hit 80,000 miles on the car. 00:06:46.051 --> 00:06:50.731 All right, so we've been driving for 395 miles, 6 hours and 44 minutes. 00:06:51.391 --> 00:06:55.091 We're at the fourth O'Reilly of the day. Hey, one of those was an AutoZone. 00:06:55.871 --> 00:07:00.051 We're going to go with Brent and we're going to get an alternator that he doesn't need. 00:07:00.671 --> 00:07:04.911 And then we'll be on our way to the Airbnb. Definitely moving a bit slower today. 00:07:06.691 --> 00:07:09.531 We did ultimately get there and Brent did get his alternator. 00:07:09.651 --> 00:07:09.931 Oh, yeah. 00:07:09.971 --> 00:07:11.671 Which I'm kind of in favor of now. 00:07:11.791 --> 00:07:15.091 Well, okay, because you never express in real time that I certainly didn't need 00:07:15.091 --> 00:07:18.151 it. It was like community voting, you know, all of us, but you seem to just 00:07:18.151 --> 00:07:19.771 go with the crazy Brent plans. 00:07:19.951 --> 00:07:23.871 Well, I was, you know, I was like, it's a belt. I think it's a belt first and foremost. 00:07:24.031 --> 00:07:27.211 And if there's another issue because of, you know, that, then we'll deal with 00:07:27.211 --> 00:07:28.891 that. But I was like, it's really, it's just a belt problem. 00:07:30.111 --> 00:07:33.131 But, you know, you got a better unit. So when you do get it installed, 00:07:33.191 --> 00:07:34.251 I actually think you're going to be better off. 00:07:34.851 --> 00:07:38.251 And we did get to our Airbnb. Nothing really stands out to me about that one. 00:07:38.431 --> 00:07:40.831 They all kind of have, I don't know about you guys, but they all kind of just 00:07:40.831 --> 00:07:43.311 merged together as one meta Airbnb. well. 00:07:43.311 --> 00:07:45.231 There was one i don't think we could forget. 00:07:45.231 --> 00:07:50.491 Well yeah yeah the one where we had somebody else the stuff in there oh no no okay. 00:07:50.491 --> 00:07:52.831 Too no the one where you um didn't really fit in the shower. 00:07:52.831 --> 00:07:55.411 Oh that was this airbnb wasn't no. 00:07:55.411 --> 00:07:56.951 No it was uh the denver one. 00:07:56.951 --> 00:07:59.591 It was multiple oh yeah oh right it was 00:07:59.591 --> 00:08:02.331 multiple guys not one of our airbnbs had 00:08:02.331 --> 00:08:05.231 a functional bathroom for me not one of them they all had something weird 00:08:05.231 --> 00:08:08.131 i don't know what's going on with airbnbs and bathrooms but we 00:08:08.131 --> 00:08:10.831 got there the next morning it was time to set off because we needed to get 00:08:10.831 --> 00:08:14.771 to denver this is where the timeline got tight because carl 00:08:14.771 --> 00:08:17.831 had a carl the ceo of system 76 00:08:17.831 --> 00:08:20.691 had scheduled himself a work from home week 00:08:20.691 --> 00:08:25.351 and he came in gracefully because we were coming into town as well as so had 00:08:25.351 --> 00:08:30.451 jeremy soller and so they both came in and scheduled to come into the office 00:08:30.451 --> 00:08:33.471 because we were going to be there to help you know give this presentation and 00:08:33.471 --> 00:08:36.971 so we really wanted to make it on time because we were kind of taking from their 00:08:36.971 --> 00:08:40.131 plan to work from home week and i i didn't intend for that to happen No. 00:08:40.271 --> 00:08:42.811 We just thought, oh, we happen to be here. Maybe something will work out, 00:08:42.951 --> 00:08:44.011 and that was very gracious of them. 00:08:44.071 --> 00:08:47.811 We're like, okay, we're in Amarillo, but we need to be there tomorrow by 10 a.m. 00:08:48.031 --> 00:08:53.431 I wouldn't call it fixed. No. I'd call it... 00:08:53.831 --> 00:08:56.151 Mildly improved? Not even? 00:08:57.471 --> 00:09:02.351 No. But we may have fixed on a leak on the radiator. Yeah, that was easy. Unrelated. 00:09:02.711 --> 00:09:05.811 So that's a win. We'll stack that. Let me get down the road a little bit because 00:09:05.811 --> 00:09:09.431 we've got to get the hell out of this Airbnb and see how it does. We'll check on her. 00:09:09.971 --> 00:09:11.871 I'm worried I'm, 00:09:13.579 --> 00:09:16.039 Well, this is the ultimate test. I mean, you're really pushing all the components, 00:09:16.439 --> 00:09:20.099 long duration, driving, heat, miles and miles. 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.859 I mean, this is it, right? This is if things are going to break or crack. 00:09:23.359 --> 00:09:25.299 You're talking about just getting it over to O'Reilly's? 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:34.959 Oh, man. We did it. And I do remember this. So we have a process, 00:09:35.099 --> 00:09:36.079 right? We get to an Airbnb. 00:09:36.619 --> 00:09:39.619 And within minutes, we try to get the Wi-Fi set up. We try to get streaming 00:09:39.619 --> 00:09:41.779 set up. We try to get Star Trek going on the main screen. 00:09:41.939 --> 00:09:44.199 Yeah, time to Star Trek. That's our standard Airbnb metric. 00:09:44.339 --> 00:09:47.319 Yeah, and it is an interesting one because it's like, you got to get the network 00:09:47.319 --> 00:09:50.539 stood up. You got to get a device working. You got to get a client device paired with that. 00:09:50.659 --> 00:09:53.659 And what's the TV setup, right? Can you use the tech that's there? 00:09:53.779 --> 00:09:56.019 Do you have to inject your own? How accessible is it? 00:09:56.139 --> 00:09:59.099 And every time we do this, we kind of like refine this idea of this ultimate 00:09:59.099 --> 00:10:04.719 tiny Linux box that has HDMI that boots right into a Kodi that just immediately 00:10:04.719 --> 00:10:08.499 starts randomly playing Star Trek and sets up an AP that all our devices connect to. 00:10:08.579 --> 00:10:10.939 Like we've been, we have been iterating on this idea. 00:10:11.079 --> 00:10:13.899 So if you have any suggestions for a device like that, please do boost them 00:10:13.899 --> 00:10:17.379 in or send us an email at linuxunplugged.com slash contact because we want to 00:10:17.379 --> 00:10:20.839 build something when we get to an Airbnb that's like a little Linux router slash 00:10:20.839 --> 00:10:23.939 Kodi box slash Wi-Fi AP repeater. 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:27.959 Also Nebula device. That's what we're going for. 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:33.059 So that's, but it is, this Airbnb we arrived at turned out to be in somebody's 00:10:33.059 --> 00:10:35.039 basement, which we didn't expect. 00:10:35.359 --> 00:10:38.279 And so I also did not fit in that. I'm not a particularly tall guy. 00:10:38.499 --> 00:10:42.499 I'm, I think 5'11", if that's, you know, It's not that unusual, 00:10:42.539 --> 00:10:48.119 but yeah, it wasn't ideal, but we made it to System 76 on time. 00:10:48.779 --> 00:10:53.199 Wes and I are just outside the System 76 office, waiting for Brent to feed his 00:10:53.199 --> 00:10:56.799 cats and get the audio interface that he forgot in the van somewhere. 00:10:58.579 --> 00:11:02.259 So, we're kind of on time. We're on Brent time, that's for sure. 00:11:02.739 --> 00:11:05.479 There's no escape in Brent time, but his cat's. 00:11:06.995 --> 00:11:09.915 Hey. Hey, what? What are you guys doing over here? Nothing. Just waiting for 00:11:09.915 --> 00:11:11.875 you, buddy. Yeah? Yeah. Okay. 00:11:12.175 --> 00:11:15.555 And we got there and, you know, we show up. Every time we go, 00:11:15.755 --> 00:11:18.355 they've changed so much. They've expanded. 00:11:18.515 --> 00:11:18.935 Oh, yeah. 00:11:19.395 --> 00:11:21.415 Rearranged the office. So it's a new entrance. 00:11:21.635 --> 00:11:24.615 Bunch of new tech. Bunch of new people. It just changes all the time. 00:11:24.755 --> 00:11:27.495 A lot more lasers. There's a whole lot of lasers now. 00:11:28.515 --> 00:11:32.475 We got there. It was great to see Carl. He gave us a tour of all the new stuff 00:11:32.475 --> 00:11:34.195 and some things they're working on. 00:11:34.255 --> 00:11:38.335 And it was also the day they were releasing the new Oryx. So that was kind of exciting. 00:11:38.735 --> 00:11:43.035 And then we sat down with him and Jeremy in an office space to try to just get 00:11:43.035 --> 00:11:46.815 the state of Cosmic because they're getting really close right now. 00:11:47.055 --> 00:11:51.235 But there's still some things that are missing. But there's also a lot of stuff 00:11:51.235 --> 00:11:55.115 regarding Cosmic that people have not discussed, including some features that 00:11:55.115 --> 00:11:59.655 have recently been added that they touch on in our chat here that are just blow away cool. 00:12:00.075 --> 00:12:03.895 We just had a great tour. Carl gave us a tour of the factory to kind of get 00:12:03.895 --> 00:12:07.115 an update on everything. but we're really here to get an update on Cosmic because 00:12:07.115 --> 00:12:09.595 the last time we chatted about it, it was early alpha. 00:12:10.035 --> 00:12:12.835 It must have been like at a Linux Fest or something. It was a while ago. 00:12:13.275 --> 00:12:14.895 And I think things have come a lot further. 00:12:15.815 --> 00:12:20.495 Yeah, I think that was Linux Fest Northwest. And is it Big Bertha? 00:12:25.535 --> 00:12:30.875 In Bellingham. But no, it was in the RV. Oh, Joops. Joops. 00:12:31.555 --> 00:12:33.895 Right, you came in Lady Joops and gave us a demo. Yeah. Right. 00:12:34.235 --> 00:12:39.295 Right. So, yeah, at that point, I think we were talking about where Cosmic was. 00:12:40.055 --> 00:12:45.815 The talk I was giving was on apps because it's my second time around at LinuxFest Northwest. 00:12:46.175 --> 00:12:50.035 I wanted to do some new content. So Jeremy actually did a lot of the work on 00:12:50.035 --> 00:12:55.455 the apps and wanted to highlight how unique they are because there's a lot of 00:12:55.455 --> 00:12:59.915 features that you just don't get in a lot of desktop apps on Linux. 00:13:00.755 --> 00:13:04.835 So we've been kind of looking at a couple of things just before we started recording. but, 00:13:05.896 --> 00:13:10.536 And things like fancy background switching for users at creators, 00:13:10.696 --> 00:13:14.656 and it looks like we're getting to the polish aspect of Cosmic now. 00:13:15.356 --> 00:13:19.556 Yeah, there's a long gap between Alpha 7, which was in April, 00:13:19.796 --> 00:13:23.016 and our beta release at the end of September. 00:13:23.336 --> 00:13:26.556 I guess that's, whatever, six months or something like that, five months. 00:13:28.256 --> 00:13:32.416 And after the Alpha 7, one of the reasons that we did alphas frequently was 00:13:32.416 --> 00:13:36.796 because we kept getting the same bugs over and over again, even though they had been resolved. 00:13:37.656 --> 00:13:41.216 So unless we were tagging releases and those were being adopted, 00:13:41.316 --> 00:13:45.616 that's because Cosmic is packaged for Arch and Fedora and Open Suicide and things like that. 00:13:45.716 --> 00:13:50.256 So unless we were tagging frequently, just the triage and the amount of effort 00:13:50.256 --> 00:13:53.676 to go through things that had already been solved was pretty high. 00:13:54.236 --> 00:14:00.196 But Alpha 7 was kind of a point where things improved considerably at that point. 00:14:00.436 --> 00:14:03.436 And so we didn't get a lot of issues afterwards. 00:14:03.696 --> 00:14:06.316 And there were unique ones that came after that. 00:14:07.176 --> 00:14:10.156 So the beta release marked that point where all the features, 00:14:10.356 --> 00:14:11.996 or by and large, all the features are in. 00:14:12.256 --> 00:14:17.336 And now we're working on smaller bug fixes and polish for the final release. 00:14:17.456 --> 00:14:19.996 Jeremy's here, too. And I wonder, Jeremy, if you have any comments on sort of 00:14:19.996 --> 00:14:23.796 just the state of the system and where it's at from a code development standpoint, 00:14:24.076 --> 00:14:24.936 stability, things like that. 00:14:25.356 --> 00:14:30.076 Yeah, sure. So as Carl said, we nailed down most of the new features already, 00:14:30.296 --> 00:14:32.976 except for a whole bunch of things that we're adding. 00:14:33.176 --> 00:14:37.896 Like the Cosmic Store needs to have Flatpak add-ons. We're doing printing support 00:14:37.896 --> 00:14:41.916 in Cosmic Edit, which is more nuts than I thought it would be. 00:14:41.916 --> 00:14:46.576 But in general, the system's pretty stable, and we're just working through the 00:14:46.576 --> 00:14:50.976 backlog of issues that people have reported during the alpha and beta phase 00:14:50.976 --> 00:14:53.636 and trying to fix them all before RC. 00:14:53.956 --> 00:14:58.316 And we actually started shipping a unit with the Cosmic Beta. 00:14:58.976 --> 00:15:06.836 So the Oryx Pro with the codename Oryp 13 is an AMD and NVIDIA hybrid system. 00:15:07.076 --> 00:15:12.096 And it turns out that it works best in Cosmic because of the way that Cosmic 00:15:12.096 --> 00:15:13.916 handles hybrid graphics. 00:15:14.236 --> 00:15:18.176 Right. So the Oryx Pro has just been released today. It's October 8th. 00:15:18.476 --> 00:15:25.516 So it's a brand new product with Strix Point CPU, NVIDIA 5070 graphics. 00:15:25.516 --> 00:15:31.376 And what's really unique about Strix's point is that the VGA or the controller, 00:15:31.696 --> 00:15:39.856 the integrated GPU, is not VGA compatible, meaning that it's... 00:15:40.419 --> 00:15:47.659 It requires Wayland because it will not work with X11 because it's not a VGA-compatible GPU. 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:53.479 So as we were working through the products, like Ubuntu 24.04, 00:15:53.719 --> 00:16:01.359 if you write it on X11, the discrete GPU is always on because the X11 can't use the integrated GPU. 00:16:01.999 --> 00:16:06.859 In Wayland, that does work correctly. And so when we're shipping Ubuntu 24.04, 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:09.599 we're also shipping that with Wayland on that product. 00:16:09.599 --> 00:16:17.479 And we weren't going to go back to 2204 for POP and find out what the Wayland 00:16:17.479 --> 00:16:22.999 State was there when we have this brand new desktop that's really close and 00:16:22.999 --> 00:16:26.839 frankly at this point a better product than what we're shipping with 2204. 00:16:27.479 --> 00:16:33.379 So the Oryx becomes our first product to ship with Cosmic, one by necessity 00:16:33.379 --> 00:16:37.519 and also because we think we're shipping a better product to our customers. 00:16:37.699 --> 00:16:39.139 That's a pretty big milestone. 00:16:39.599 --> 00:16:44.759 So we're going to kind of play with things off mic, but I'm curious, 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:48.279 because you guys have been kind of running this the longest out of almost anybody 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.659 on the internet, what are people missing when it comes to what's great about using Cosmic? 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.799 Like when you hear people discussing Cosmic and arguing Plasma versus Gnome 00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:59.119 and Cosmic, what's the thing that people are missing? 00:16:59.599 --> 00:17:03.599 The highlight of Cosmic is that it adapts to whatever your workflow happens 00:17:03.599 --> 00:17:09.919 to be, and it has all this ability to do that, but none of it feels overwhelming. It all feels natural. 00:17:10.179 --> 00:17:15.719 It's really – it's easy to get in the weeds. Sometimes I think people use cosmic 00:17:15.719 --> 00:17:21.559 and they say, well, there's not like a lot of new things in here. 00:17:21.659 --> 00:17:24.639 I think it's because the design is just so good. 00:17:25.512 --> 00:17:29.132 That when you get to using it and moving things around, it just all works, 00:17:29.132 --> 00:17:36.232 and it just feels so simple and natural that the innovation is taking all these 00:17:36.232 --> 00:17:39.792 advanced concepts and making them that approachable to every single user. 00:17:39.972 --> 00:17:47.632 So you don't have to be an engineer to take advantage of tiling or to theme 00:17:47.632 --> 00:17:50.712 your system and make it look exactly the way you want it to look. 00:17:50.952 --> 00:17:54.532 You can go in and, without being overwhelmed by a whole bunch of settings, 00:17:54.532 --> 00:18:00.072 click a few things, and then you have a dramatically different workflow or experience, 00:18:00.672 --> 00:18:02.212 based on what feels right to you. 00:18:02.332 --> 00:18:06.512 And it's so easy to switch between different styles of using Cosmic, 00:18:06.532 --> 00:18:09.972 whether you want to launch apps with the launcher and switch between them, 00:18:10.032 --> 00:18:14.512 or if you want to use the application library, or if you prefer to use workspaces 00:18:14.512 --> 00:18:18.952 or not use workspaces or use tiling or use a hybrid tiling and some, 00:18:19.152 --> 00:18:24.912 you know, maybe tiling on your external display and floating on your laptop display. 00:18:25.712 --> 00:18:31.372 Whatever fits right for you. It's just very easy and natural to set it up and 00:18:31.372 --> 00:18:32.352 to try different things. 00:18:32.792 --> 00:18:36.432 And to me, there's kind of three things in addition to that. 00:18:36.732 --> 00:18:44.392 We're trying to make, or what Cosmic does is make computing fun and productive and personal. 00:18:45.589 --> 00:18:50.849 And it kind of takes some effort to make computing fun. 00:18:50.909 --> 00:18:55.369 We spend so much time on our computers. They should be fun to spend time at. 00:18:56.069 --> 00:19:02.929 We're at them for hours. And so for me, fun is customizing my theme, 00:19:03.349 --> 00:19:07.029 changing my layout, trying different things. I enjoy doing that stuff. 00:19:07.189 --> 00:19:09.689 For other people, it's gaming. So we want to make sure gaming is fantastic. 00:19:10.749 --> 00:19:15.889 For other people, what might matter the most is I don't have to click four things to log out. 00:19:16.589 --> 00:19:21.029 In Cosmic, you just click the button, click log out. 00:19:21.789 --> 00:19:26.149 Everything is a shorter path to what you need in Cosmic than a lot of other 00:19:26.149 --> 00:19:27.989 operating system experiences. 00:19:28.249 --> 00:19:30.769 Jeremy, I'm curious if you have anything to add on what people are missing when 00:19:30.769 --> 00:19:33.729 they're comparing the different desktop environments today and they're thinking 00:19:33.729 --> 00:19:36.909 about Cosmic or they're comparing Cosmic to Plasma or GNOME or things like that. 00:19:37.029 --> 00:19:41.489 Well, one thing I think I see as missing is people judge, often they judge Cosmic 00:19:41.489 --> 00:19:45.689 based on its current state, when they should be looking forwards to the future. 00:19:46.509 --> 00:19:51.049 Every release that we do, we will have a feature cycle where we build up a large 00:19:51.049 --> 00:19:53.789 number of features. And I don't think we've ever told anybody no. 00:19:55.109 --> 00:20:00.389 We just say, no, this is not how we want to do it, but we will try to adjust to that use case. 00:20:00.529 --> 00:20:05.029 And there's so many cases where, like when I think about all the accessibility work we did, 00:20:05.149 --> 00:20:09.649 that was really one where we had to toe the line between how do we make sure 00:20:09.649 --> 00:20:14.129 everything is there for every person who could potentially use this product 00:20:14.129 --> 00:20:17.509 and every potential issue they may have with the product, 00:20:17.749 --> 00:20:24.369 but still make the default experience good for the largest number of people. 00:20:24.549 --> 00:20:29.389 And yeah, that's what I wish people would consider is how would you see this 00:20:29.389 --> 00:20:31.189 modular desktop environment evolve 00:20:31.189 --> 00:20:34.649 into the future rather rather than judging it by how it is right now. 00:20:34.869 --> 00:20:39.909 Also add to that, when you have an established customer base and user base like 00:20:39.909 --> 00:20:41.969 Pop! OS has and System76 has. 00:20:44.112 --> 00:20:48.672 It's not like starting from scratch with no users and building something new. 00:20:48.872 --> 00:20:51.952 You have a responsibility to what their experience already has been and what 00:20:51.952 --> 00:20:54.412 their experience is going to be when you deliver something new to them. 00:20:54.912 --> 00:20:59.912 And so when we're building Cosmic, we're building a platform that's going to be familiar to them. 00:21:00.012 --> 00:21:03.232 But once you get into Cosmic, you realize that this platform, 00:21:03.332 --> 00:21:06.412 because of the way it can be composed and the way it's modular, 00:21:06.632 --> 00:21:09.112 it can actually become anything that you want it to be. 00:21:09.112 --> 00:21:15.072 And that's, I think, what will be its key feature and what people will really 00:21:15.072 --> 00:21:19.252 appreciate long term is I see folks say, it looks like Mac. 00:21:20.272 --> 00:21:26.372 It looks like GNOME. It looks like KDE. It looks like this. 00:21:26.852 --> 00:21:31.152 Exactly. It does. It can look like any one of those. 00:21:31.552 --> 00:21:35.592 And to get that layout that you really enjoy and that you prefer to use, 00:21:35.632 --> 00:21:41.052 it's just so simple that you can just lay it out the way you want. 00:21:41.792 --> 00:21:44.532 So, yeah, it's unique in that way. 00:21:44.732 --> 00:21:50.712 I guess I'm sort of surprised we've been talking and the architecture hasn't 00:21:50.712 --> 00:21:53.792 come up, Rust hasn't come up, the way the system settings are stored, 00:21:53.852 --> 00:21:55.752 which is kind of different and unique, hasn't come up. 00:21:56.172 --> 00:21:58.672 Jeremy, can you touch on some of that for us? Yeah, absolutely. 00:21:58.672 --> 00:22:02.132 So we try as much as possible to keep things modular. 00:22:02.852 --> 00:22:06.092 And this is another thing where I want to see it evolve over time. 00:22:06.252 --> 00:22:10.272 Like we just added third-party applets into the Cosmic Store. So you can go in. 00:22:10.412 --> 00:22:14.092 These are things that anybody can make, and they're securely added to the panel 00:22:14.092 --> 00:22:17.132 because they're flat packs and they're sandboxed. 00:22:17.292 --> 00:22:22.212 So every applet that you get from the applet store, you can add to the panel. 00:22:22.412 --> 00:22:25.432 You can create docks and panels anywhere you want on the system, 00:22:25.432 --> 00:22:31.112 on any display, any number. and Carl is laughing right now. 00:22:32.492 --> 00:22:35.012 I would definitely have too many. I'll be that guy. I admit it. 00:22:35.572 --> 00:22:39.752 You'd have the like 1990s browser toolbar kind of look. 00:22:39.992 --> 00:22:44.112 Yeah. Oh, yeah. And so the ability to have every single one of those be a separate 00:22:44.112 --> 00:22:48.152 process and be in its own sandbox means that they can be written in any language. 00:22:48.552 --> 00:22:54.532 So the Rust aspect of Cosmic actually doesn't matter as much as people want 00:22:54.532 --> 00:22:59.052 it to be, especially now that Rust has become like a political statement somehow. 00:22:59.472 --> 00:23:04.092 I don't care, I have my own politics, but Rust is just a programming language, 00:23:04.092 --> 00:23:07.212 and the purpose of it is to drive memory safety. 00:23:07.412 --> 00:23:11.972 And the reason we're using it is because it allows us to say these types of 00:23:11.972 --> 00:23:14.812 bugs cannot exist in safe Rust code. 00:23:15.012 --> 00:23:19.992 And so long as we're writing safe Rust code, then we eliminate those bugs or 00:23:19.992 --> 00:23:26.072 at least reduce the prevalence of bugs overall in the entire desktop environment. This... 00:23:26.489 --> 00:23:29.709 The config mechanism is another interesting part of it. 00:23:30.069 --> 00:23:34.649 It's one that was driven by portability and modularity. 00:23:34.949 --> 00:23:39.789 It's how can we make it so that the same config mechanism could be used by Cosmic 00:23:39.789 --> 00:23:42.889 apps, regardless of what operating system they're running on. 00:23:43.029 --> 00:23:47.489 So they're running on Windows, macOS, Linux, BSD, it doesn't matter. 00:23:47.749 --> 00:23:52.469 They don't need a third-party service to exist. They don't need a daemon setup. 00:23:52.609 --> 00:23:54.429 They don't need dconf to exist. 00:23:55.129 --> 00:23:59.969 They just need to be able to write to files and so we have a flat file format 00:23:59.969 --> 00:24:04.289 where they just write out in the Rust object notation format, 00:24:04.789 --> 00:24:08.629 to those files and you can manage those files in a Git repository if you'd like 00:24:08.629 --> 00:24:12.069 to or in any way you want to sync files between systems. 00:24:12.969 --> 00:24:17.489 And you can diff those files very easily they're all plain text and another 00:24:17.489 --> 00:24:21.949 thing that we've done is to ensure that all the state is separated out from 00:24:21.949 --> 00:24:27.329 the config and what I mean by state is if you're in KDE and you're trying to 00:24:27.329 --> 00:24:28.749 manage your config files, you might, 00:24:29.149 --> 00:24:34.909 for instance, notice that the size of every console window is stored. 00:24:34.969 --> 00:24:39.689 The last window size is stored in the same config file that saves things like 00:24:39.689 --> 00:24:42.529 your keyboard shortcuts for the console application. 00:24:42.769 --> 00:24:45.289 So we've separated those kinds of things out. 00:24:45.529 --> 00:24:53.609 Recent files would be stored in state versus the theme settings would be stored in config. 00:24:53.809 --> 00:24:57.849 And that ensures that you're able to sync those config settings without bringing 00:24:57.849 --> 00:25:01.109 over state that doesn't necessarily apply between computers. 00:25:01.369 --> 00:25:06.909 Yeah, I think that extends to our lack of requirement for system D as well. 00:25:07.909 --> 00:25:14.929 The portability means that Cosmic will be a great desktop for BSDs. It works on Redox. 00:25:15.089 --> 00:25:22.929 And so we try to make decisions that don't eliminate its use in other platforms. Yeah, I'm just curious. 00:25:23.149 --> 00:25:26.289 How's it been? It seems like Cosmic's spreading its wings to a lot of other 00:25:26.289 --> 00:25:30.029 platforms and distributions. Have you gotten good feedback from people trying to package it? 00:25:30.149 --> 00:25:33.769 I've gotten feedback and it may be anecdotal that this is the easiest desktop 00:25:33.769 --> 00:25:37.509 environment to port to package overall. Yeah. 00:25:38.340 --> 00:25:43.000 There were a few hiccups with Rust in the start, like Fedora wanted to bundle 00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:47.340 all the Rust, take all the Rust dependencies and turn them into dynamic libraries. 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:51.360 But then they changed their mind, and now they're allowing those to be compiled 00:25:51.360 --> 00:25:54.500 by Cargo, just the native Rust build system. 00:25:54.740 --> 00:26:01.300 And so, yeah, it's spread across to Arch, to OpenSUSE, Nix, to Alpine, 00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:07.580 to Fedora, and onwards because it is very easy to port and it has very limited 00:26:07.580 --> 00:26:09.460 dependencies on the system. 00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:11.980 All right, well, I'm just looking forward to playing around with it. Thanks, guys. 00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:18.600 Yeah, really, a big thank you to everyone over at System76 for making time on 00:26:18.600 --> 00:26:19.960 our last-minute scheduled stop. 00:26:20.700 --> 00:26:23.900 And I'm going to give it a go. I walked away pretty impressed. 00:26:23.980 --> 00:26:27.440 One of the things that impressed me the most is the way they've implemented applets. 00:26:27.560 --> 00:26:33.500 And that's, to me, a massive innovation in the desktop space is essentially 00:26:33.500 --> 00:26:36.400 any Flatpak app with the right dimensions. It's a Wayland application. 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:39.980 Yeah, as long as you can draw a window on the screen and, you know, 00:26:40.060 --> 00:26:41.700 it has the right interfaces. It'll work. 00:26:41.760 --> 00:26:47.820 You can make it an applet. And the massive ramification of that is all the dependencies, 00:26:48.180 --> 00:26:50.440 your language, all of that's handled by, you know, the Flatpak. 00:26:50.600 --> 00:26:54.660 But it also means if the desktop updates, your extensions are, 00:26:54.800 --> 00:26:58.500 unless something changes in the XTG portals, your extensions aren't going to break. 00:26:59.080 --> 00:27:05.340 It's a brilliant, genius way to do extensions on a desktop that works with a 00:27:05.340 --> 00:27:08.440 desktop that might be quasi-rolling on some systems. 00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:11.680 Yeah, stay tuned. We'll see if we can get Chris to Vibecode in a little extension. 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:16.020 So I've been running Plasma and Aurora here on my main machine in the studio, 00:27:16.020 --> 00:27:19.900 and I think we're going to nix Cosmic it up, and I'm going to give Cosmic a 00:27:19.900 --> 00:27:22.980 go on this, see if I can kind of replicate a workflow I really like in the studio 00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:25.720 with it. I was just really impressed. 00:27:27.100 --> 00:27:29.440 Anything stand out to you gentlemen about cosmic. 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:32.380 Yeah i mean i still really want to sit and live with it for 00:27:32.380 --> 00:27:35.260 a while to give it a proper test of course um but yeah just 00:27:35.260 --> 00:27:41.440 you know watching carl use his cosmic watching him kind of live tweak it and 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:45.140 change it in front of us with i mean he wasn't even really sitting in front 00:27:45.140 --> 00:27:48.240 in front of a proper workstation environment he's kind of having to you know 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:52.160 show us the screen and tweak things as part of the presentation so if you can 00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:52.980 do it in that environment, 00:27:53.120 --> 00:27:55.880 it seems like now we have this lean, 00:27:56.320 --> 00:27:58.460 mean, portable, flexible environment. 00:27:58.580 --> 00:28:01.940 So even if it doesn't end up maybe being your daily driver on every machine, 00:28:02.060 --> 00:28:05.280 it seems like a very useful tool that you can kind of take with you. 00:28:05.540 --> 00:28:12.000 For me, I was really impressed by their dedication to like the design of the 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:13.060 architecture on the backend. 00:28:13.560 --> 00:28:16.840 And they specifically said, you know, we're trying to make production software. 00:28:16.900 --> 00:28:19.620 And so we want to do it right, even if it takes longer. 00:28:20.080 --> 00:28:25.940 And I think that philosophy is really playing out in a nice way now with Cosmic 00:28:25.940 --> 00:28:31.700 coming into beta and us getting that behind the scenes look of how it's built. 00:28:32.060 --> 00:28:36.780 And that also means they've been working really closely with a bunch of upstream that, 00:28:37.722 --> 00:28:43.162 found really impressive and is just making our linux ecosystem better overall 00:28:43.162 --> 00:28:44.762 so i was really impressed by all of that. 00:28:44.762 --> 00:28:49.482 I think too one of the things that i took away from it is there's components 00:28:49.482 --> 00:28:52.982 that people might end up using even if they don't use the entire cosmic desktop 00:28:52.982 --> 00:28:56.762 of so on hyperland you don't really have a file manager you get to pick and 00:28:56.762 --> 00:29:00.422 choose and one of the things i experimented with is i installed the cosmic file 00:29:00.422 --> 00:29:03.742 manager because it It doesn't require nearly as much as, say, 00:29:03.862 --> 00:29:06.342 Dolphin or Files does from GNOME. 00:29:06.602 --> 00:29:09.502 And it worked really well. So there's components they're working on here that 00:29:09.502 --> 00:29:13.202 are pretty portable. But as you also heard Carl say, they don't have a system 00:29:13.202 --> 00:29:18.682 D dependency, not as a political statement, but just as a function of how they've built it. 00:29:18.762 --> 00:29:23.242 Which means perhaps this will be available for desktops that want a modern desktop 00:29:23.242 --> 00:29:24.962 that don't have system D in the distro. 00:29:25.162 --> 00:29:29.002 Or maybe one of the BSDs out there that obviously won't have system D. 00:29:29.002 --> 00:29:32.322 And so it has that's kind of encouraging that way because it has some potential 00:29:32.322 --> 00:29:36.922 audience that maybe modern gnome and plasma are are leaving behind. 00:29:36.922 --> 00:29:40.022 I have to say i was also really quite impressed by 00:29:40.022 --> 00:29:42.662 just how many resources they're putting to the 00:29:42.662 --> 00:29:45.902 desktop they mentioned 10 people working on cosmic 00:29:45.902 --> 00:29:48.862 full-time including qa of course and i 00:29:48.862 --> 00:29:51.842 specifically carl said well we actually like 00:29:51.842 --> 00:29:54.502 that to be like three or four times that size in the 00:29:54.502 --> 00:29:57.302 future and so they're really dedicating to this 00:29:57.302 --> 00:30:00.582 desktop which is yeah really impressive 00:30:00.582 --> 00:30:03.782 yeah and i love too that uh 00:30:03.782 --> 00:30:07.942 their philosophy towards a rolling release desktop he mentioned that a couple 00:30:07.942 --> 00:30:13.502 times and the idea that the desktop can be decoupled from the distro and that's 00:30:13.502 --> 00:30:17.902 the way they're building it even for pop os was a really interesting concept 00:30:17.902 --> 00:30:20.962 and i think has a lot of really interesting benefits so. 00:30:20.962 --> 00:30:24.602 I'll give it a go and report back in the future after I've had some time with Cosmic. 00:30:25.522 --> 00:30:30.642 And before we even got out of the parking lot at System 76, our good buddy, 00:30:30.782 --> 00:30:33.982 Editor Drew, showed up for a quick reunite while we were in town. 00:30:35.582 --> 00:30:38.242 And, well, I think we'll get into what happened afterwards later. 00:30:38.842 --> 00:30:43.802 Look who it is, boys! Hey, is that Drew? It's that guy who makes us knock down like shit. Hey! 00:30:44.862 --> 00:30:47.942 Hello! Hello! Good to see you. 00:30:48.722 --> 00:30:53.022 It's been like two years, three years, eight years? We saw him for... 00:30:53.022 --> 00:30:55.602 No, it's less for you because we were here for Denver like two years. 00:30:55.962 --> 00:30:59.502 Oh, right, yeah, for the red hats. We didn't see you much. Still looking handsome as ever. 00:31:00.422 --> 00:31:04.702 What do you got there? That's for you, right? Oh, it's a DC to DC charger. 00:31:06.442 --> 00:31:09.642 That sounds like one. After you're alternating, you got a whole new project. 00:31:09.862 --> 00:31:12.622 Should we open it? That's very exciting. He needs this. 00:31:14.362 --> 00:31:17.522 Just to get you to stop bugging him and buy it. It looks great, Brent. Huh? Yeah. 00:31:17.942 --> 00:31:20.622 It looks like it's in great shape. Oh, I know how it does. Yeah, 00:31:20.762 --> 00:31:24.042 yeah, that's great. Has this thing even been used? No, it looks beautiful. 00:31:24.422 --> 00:31:26.482 Yeah, it's half the price of everything else. 00:31:27.102 --> 00:31:32.482 Assuming it works, I think it might be okay. Yeah, good. There you go. I'm going blue. 00:31:33.622 --> 00:31:35.882 I mean, look how clean it is. Yeah, yeah, no kidding. 00:31:38.770 --> 00:31:41.910 Yeah, seriously, that looks like that's never been used. I mean, look at the labels. 00:31:42.110 --> 00:31:43.530 The person selling it only had 00:31:43.530 --> 00:31:49.950 one other eBay item, which was like a Louis Vuitton super high-end purse. 00:31:50.210 --> 00:31:53.850 So I was banging on the back, I didn't know what they were doing. Yeah, no kidding. 00:31:55.390 --> 00:31:58.110 Well, what do you think of the van? This is your first time seeing it in person, 00:31:58.230 --> 00:32:01.770 right? It is, yeah. What do you think? It's a van. 00:32:02.750 --> 00:32:06.870 Can we get more descriptors? A little bit of rust. Yeah. 00:32:08.310 --> 00:32:12.590 It's a vibe no i mean you know it's it's it's it's. 00:32:12.590 --> 00:32:17.410 An old ram you know it's an old ram he says um you know so just a quick side 00:32:17.410 --> 00:32:20.190 again i'm so grateful to the audience for making this trip possible gave us 00:32:20.190 --> 00:32:23.750 a chance to reunite with drew which is always really good to just reconnect, 00:32:24.390 --> 00:32:30.410 and brent then began to work his magic he gave drew the tour of the van so we 00:32:30.410 --> 00:32:34.970 captured editor drew's post van tour impressions to see if they improved so. 00:32:34.970 --> 00:32:37.910 Now that you've had the full tour Or what's the refined opinion? 00:32:38.130 --> 00:32:41.710 Dude, it's awesome. Really? You get them. Yes. You got them to come around. 00:32:42.590 --> 00:32:45.450 I mean, you know, I kind of figured it would be one of those things where, 00:32:45.610 --> 00:32:48.530 like, you're looking at it from the outside, and it doesn't look like much. 00:32:48.530 --> 00:32:50.270 It looks like a 30-year-old van. 00:32:50.630 --> 00:32:53.910 But then you get inside, and it's like, hey, look at this. 00:32:54.130 --> 00:32:57.570 This thing's cool. This thing's cool. This thing's cool. Every direction you 00:32:57.570 --> 00:33:01.150 look, there's something cool. There's something weird. It's just, yeah, it's awesome. 00:33:01.290 --> 00:33:03.970 So you got them. You turned them around, Brent. Good job. 00:33:04.230 --> 00:33:07.470 Well, thank you. Yeah, I was a little, I got to say, underwhelmed by his initial 00:33:07.470 --> 00:33:10.750 reaction. I was like, this won't do. We got to work harder here. 00:33:10.910 --> 00:33:14.510 And sure enough, I got him with the home assistant in the cover there. 00:33:14.570 --> 00:33:18.010 He's like, how do you fit that in there? And he's really impressed. So thanks, Drew. 00:33:18.530 --> 00:33:23.770 Yes, it was really great to see you, Drew. Wes and I, however, we had to roll. 00:33:23.990 --> 00:33:27.590 We still had 22 hours to get it back to the studio, which meant driving through 00:33:27.590 --> 00:33:33.630 most of Montana, most of Wyoming, and of course, all of Idaho and Washington. 00:33:33.630 --> 00:33:36.450 We really had to put down, like, significant miles. 00:33:37.010 --> 00:33:39.390 And when we left, it was a little sad. 00:33:40.330 --> 00:33:46.450 Okay, Wes and I are in my car. We are leaving Brent behind with Drew. So I... 00:33:48.265 --> 00:33:51.285 We'll be out of Denver probably in the next two hours or so because traffic's 00:33:51.285 --> 00:33:54.925 pretty bad. So an hour or so. How long do you think until Brent's out of Denver? 00:33:55.645 --> 00:34:00.405 Well, he's about to go to lunch or really dinner at this point with Drew. 00:34:01.465 --> 00:34:05.605 Is he going to leave Denver at like 8 p.m. at night? Probably not. 00:34:05.765 --> 00:34:06.985 So that's at least tomorrow. 00:34:07.625 --> 00:34:11.385 But, you know, we ended up fixing on his brakes instead of fixing on his belts 00:34:11.385 --> 00:34:13.405 or his alternator, which he also has a new one. 00:34:14.205 --> 00:34:17.185 And, you know. Maybe he gets working on that. Maybe he gets working on that. 00:34:17.665 --> 00:34:21.965 I think he doesn't leave till tomorrow. I'm betting, I'm betting Friday. 00:34:22.685 --> 00:34:24.165 Okay, Brent's survey says. 00:34:26.565 --> 00:34:30.705 Well, yeah, Drew and I had an amazing time together and we might have had sushi 00:34:30.705 --> 00:34:33.505 and sake and like lots of chats and stuff. 00:34:33.605 --> 00:34:39.105 And then I was like, I may as well just stay overnight. But I didn't really have a plan for that. 00:34:39.745 --> 00:34:43.845 So I have to say thank you to System76 for letting me sleep in their parking lot. 00:34:44.345 --> 00:34:47.585 Really nice parking lot. I gotta say nice and quiet other than the loudspeaker 00:34:47.585 --> 00:34:52.125 that comes on at 5.30 in the morning and says, Hey, you're being recorded on video. 00:34:52.585 --> 00:34:58.345 So highly recommended. They were kind enough to not bother me in the morning. 00:34:58.545 --> 00:35:04.625 And so I got going in the morning, but, you know, I forgot some of my stuff in Drew's car. 00:35:04.785 --> 00:35:09.865 So I had to, you know, see Drew again. And he had a whole beautiful, 00:35:09.865 --> 00:35:16.085 like, care package for me of, like, van supplies. things he thought would be 00:35:16.085 --> 00:35:18.545 helpful, including a giant bundle of rope. 00:35:18.765 --> 00:35:21.445 And it was really sweet. Yeah. 00:35:22.025 --> 00:35:26.425 Wow. She was so great. Wow. Well, so we were putting down miles. 00:35:27.005 --> 00:35:33.365 Wes and I on the route home totally leaned in to take advantage of tactical wife planning. 00:35:33.645 --> 00:35:37.685 She was great because she was watching us on the tracker. And so she was constantly 00:35:37.685 --> 00:35:41.845 looking into, okay, there's an Airbnb about an hour out or two hours out from you. 00:35:41.945 --> 00:35:44.365 You have these options. And then we would say, yeah, we'll make it this far. 00:35:44.425 --> 00:35:45.465 Then she'd book it for us. 00:35:46.025 --> 00:35:49.325 And all the details would just be handled for us. And we'd just show up and crash. 00:35:49.425 --> 00:35:52.965 Yeah, we got a message with the door code and the Wi-Fi. Incredible. 00:35:53.305 --> 00:35:57.205 Yeah, so we were able to move pretty quick because we had to. 00:35:57.245 --> 00:35:58.965 We wanted to make it back here in time for John. 00:35:59.525 --> 00:36:03.565 It's the final push of the trip. Wes and I are in Washington State, 00:36:03.845 --> 00:36:05.125 in eastern Washington State. 00:36:05.685 --> 00:36:07.825 We stopped at Wes's absolute favorite restaurant. 00:36:08.525 --> 00:36:12.205 Burger King. When the king tells you to get breakfast, you stop, you listen. 00:36:12.605 --> 00:36:18.625 So we filled up with gas, ordered some fully loaded croissant-wiches. Our way. 00:36:18.925 --> 00:36:21.905 Yeah, always our way, and we're waiting on some, 00:36:23.576 --> 00:36:26.516 I assume the syrup's really good, and I wanted to get that. 00:36:27.976 --> 00:36:32.596 Oh, Wes is grabbing the French toast sticks. So we have about five hours or so on the road. 00:36:32.776 --> 00:36:36.396 I probably have another six or seven after I drop Wes off. I'll have another 00:36:36.396 --> 00:36:38.916 couple hours. So six or seven hours total for me. 00:36:39.736 --> 00:36:42.616 And then the trip's all done. No idea where Brent's headed right now. 00:36:43.376 --> 00:36:46.276 He's going in the opposite direction of home, so we'll figure that out at some point. 00:36:47.936 --> 00:36:49.356 But hopefully he's having a good time. 00:36:50.796 --> 00:36:56.176 It was a great time. And so Brent's total hours on the trip driving, 00:36:56.476 --> 00:37:02.656 you put in a massive 59.44 hours of continuous drive time. 00:37:02.756 --> 00:37:04.976 That's like active motion time, right? 00:37:05.276 --> 00:37:12.516 Yeah. Yeah. And Wes and I put in a total drive time of 75.4 hours. 00:37:12.976 --> 00:37:17.016 Which actually, I turned off the tracker in Seattle. So I continued to drive 00:37:17.016 --> 00:37:18.336 for another couple hours after that. 00:37:18.436 --> 00:37:22.056 Yeah, that means you ended up driving for probably over eight hours that last day. Sorry. 00:37:22.256 --> 00:37:26.816 Yeah, yeah. Really amazing that there was really no incidents or any problems 00:37:26.816 --> 00:37:29.276 and that it went so smoothly and that we got to do the meetups. 00:37:29.336 --> 00:37:30.756 We just want to do more of it next time. 00:37:30.876 --> 00:37:34.396 We want to do more meetups on the route, maybe different routes and things like 00:37:34.396 --> 00:37:39.296 that because it was great and everything worked out. We made it back here just in time. 00:37:43.376 --> 00:37:47.936 Onepassword.com slash unplugged. That's the number one password.com and then 00:37:47.936 --> 00:37:52.156 unplugged, all lowercase. Go take the first steps to better security for your 00:37:52.156 --> 00:37:55.456 team by securing credentials and protecting every application, 00:37:55.716 --> 00:37:57.556 even unmanaged shadow IT. 00:37:57.756 --> 00:38:02.516 It really does change everything. 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That is the number 1password.com slash 00:39:58.659 --> 00:40:00.159 unplugged, all lowercase. 00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:03.119 1password.com slash unplugged. 00:40:06.219 --> 00:40:12.019 While we were on the road, Ubuntu 25.10 was released, and we had a chance to 00:40:12.019 --> 00:40:17.519 sit down with John Seeger, VP of Engineering at Canonical, and get the inside scoop. 00:40:21.012 --> 00:40:25.252 John's back on the program. It's been just since the beginning of the year we 00:40:25.252 --> 00:40:29.932 were talking and it's a big week because Ubuntu 25.10 is out. 00:40:30.712 --> 00:40:35.292 And John, in your release, you say Ubuntu 25.10 is a statement on the intent 00:40:35.292 --> 00:40:38.132 for the next Ubuntu LTS in 2026. 00:40:38.612 --> 00:40:41.092 It sounds like a big deal. Welcome back to the program, sir. 00:40:41.192 --> 00:40:42.452 Thanks very much for having me. It's good to be back. 00:40:42.592 --> 00:40:44.872 So what do you mean when you say it's a statement of intent? 00:40:45.272 --> 00:40:49.112 Are we to say, is that to say like what's in this release today is what we should 00:40:49.112 --> 00:40:51.712 expect in the LTS? Or what do we mean by that? 00:40:51.852 --> 00:40:56.172 I think it's two things, right? So yes, indeed, the things that you see in this 00:40:56.172 --> 00:40:59.992 release, some of which are a little more testy, and the plan is to get those 00:40:59.992 --> 00:41:03.672 stable and kind of well understood in the hope that we can ship them for the LTS. 00:41:03.912 --> 00:41:09.472 But it also marks, I think, hopefully what I think will be a change in Ubuntu 00:41:09.472 --> 00:41:13.912 where we try to have slightly more exciting releases going forward. 00:41:14.072 --> 00:41:17.692 So we have to dial back that excitement a little bit for the LTS and go a little 00:41:17.692 --> 00:41:22.332 bit harder on the kind of reliability and stability that our LTS customers expect. 00:41:22.692 --> 00:41:27.752 But my observation when I came into sort of looking after Ubuntu at Canonical 00:41:27.752 --> 00:41:31.152 was that the interim releases have kind of stopped being so crazy. 00:41:31.312 --> 00:41:34.972 And I'd like to make them crazy again, because I think we're in a position where 00:41:34.972 --> 00:41:37.672 we can use our extraordinary user base and, you know, 00:41:37.892 --> 00:41:42.212 rather excellent community to push certain things that might actually have an 00:41:42.212 --> 00:41:46.772 impact beyond just ubuntu right like it's not just about ubuntu it's about uh 00:41:46.772 --> 00:41:50.312 trying to advance linux in general whether that be on the server or the desktop 00:41:50.312 --> 00:41:52.032 or devices or whatever that might be. 00:41:52.572 --> 00:41:56.612 So how does that manifest then because one of the things that i know you've 00:41:56.612 --> 00:42:01.172 been focusing on is sort of a faster release cadence i think monthly snapshots 00:42:01.172 --> 00:42:06.352 do you view it as you put those contributions into ubuntu and hope that the 00:42:06.352 --> 00:42:08.632 wider linux community takes them upstream, 00:42:09.252 --> 00:42:13.372 or is it is it more fundamental like the tooling you're choosing and you're 00:42:13.372 --> 00:42:16.472 hoping to have an impact there like can you expand on what you mean by that. 00:42:17.306 --> 00:42:22.746 Yeah, so the two are somewhat different. The monthly releasing is based on some 00:42:22.746 --> 00:42:25.346 wisdom that I have picked up over the years working with software teams, 00:42:25.506 --> 00:42:29.746 which is, if releasing is hard, you should do it more. And releasing was hard. 00:42:30.586 --> 00:42:32.826 Releasing Ubuntu was something we only did every six months. 00:42:32.846 --> 00:42:35.246 It was a relatively dated process. 00:42:35.586 --> 00:42:39.026 And I wanted to modernize that process. And 00:42:39.026 --> 00:42:41.786 only getting a chance to think about that process every 00:42:41.786 --> 00:42:44.526 six months is not necessarily very conducive to us 00:42:44.526 --> 00:42:47.546 making it any better so the monthly releases was really 00:42:47.546 --> 00:42:50.786 a tool for the release management team that may not have felt like 00:42:50.786 --> 00:42:53.786 that for them the first time it was a tool for them to understand their own 00:42:53.786 --> 00:42:57.266 process better and improve their understanding and it really shows so this time 00:42:57.266 --> 00:43:00.666 we have a release sprint when we release them to we we get together a few of 00:43:00.666 --> 00:43:05.266 us in our london office and this time we were all done like hours early just 00:43:05.266 --> 00:43:08.086 waiting to release the press release at the time we said we would release and 00:43:08.086 --> 00:43:10.546 that has basically never happened as far as i can tell, 00:43:12.106 --> 00:43:16.006 the tooling side of things is more where i want to push so this is things like 00:43:16.006 --> 00:43:20.366 the rust core utils and the rust sudo implementation and potentially some of 00:43:20.366 --> 00:43:24.166 the work we're doing around tpm full disk encryption and a few other initiatives like that. 00:43:24.166 --> 00:43:27.166 I see so i would 00:43:27.166 --> 00:43:30.506 not i don't i don't really know but to me it would seem like what 00:43:30.506 --> 00:43:36.546 you're trying to do is push on processes that were designed to improve stability 00:43:36.546 --> 00:43:41.306 and reliability of the release so have you gotten pushback saying john you're 00:43:41.306 --> 00:43:45.066 changing things that we put in place on purpose like we have lessons learned 00:43:45.066 --> 00:43:47.566 and that's why we do it this way and you want to change it so we can release 00:43:47.566 --> 00:43:48.786 faster has that been a problem. 00:43:49.786 --> 00:43:55.166 Um a little but i would i would temper that with i am asking questions and pushing 00:43:55.166 --> 00:43:59.586 but not not being reckless like i uh i've been asked i've been accused of trying 00:43:59.586 --> 00:44:02.026 to turn ubuntu into various these other things, like maybe Nixos, 00:44:02.126 --> 00:44:04.026 you'll have heard me waxing lyrical about that before. 00:44:04.666 --> 00:44:07.726 And that's not the purpose. The purpose is to try and understand. 00:44:09.375 --> 00:44:12.915 How we could evolve Ubuntu to give ourselves and our customers, 00:44:13.095 --> 00:44:15.895 be those, you know, tinkerers at home or our paid customers, 00:44:16.135 --> 00:44:20.555 the assurance they need that Ubuntu is the stable platform, the reliable platform, 00:44:20.695 --> 00:44:25.255 the resilient platform they want, but also delivers on the mission that Ubuntu 00:44:25.255 --> 00:44:28.775 was started with, right, which is all about delivering the very best of open 00:44:28.775 --> 00:44:29.955 source to a really wide audience. 00:44:30.155 --> 00:44:34.275 So back in the day, I wasn't around in the Linux soon then, but when Ubuntu 00:44:34.275 --> 00:44:37.755 first kind of forked off from Debian or became a downstream of Debian, 00:44:37.975 --> 00:44:42.075 the whole point was to provide an area where we could ship newer, 00:44:42.275 --> 00:44:47.055 more exciting software that perhaps was more complicated in Debian because of 00:44:47.055 --> 00:44:50.235 licensing or policy or process. 00:44:50.575 --> 00:44:53.355 And I think that's fine. I think the two should exist. 00:44:53.495 --> 00:44:56.215 I don't think Debian should do what we do. And I don't think we should do what 00:44:56.215 --> 00:44:58.755 Debian does in the same way. I don't think we should do what Arch or Next do. 00:44:58.875 --> 00:45:06.575 But that doesn't mean that the processes that we have used for the last 20 years are unchangeable. 00:45:06.795 --> 00:45:10.335 A lot has changed in software engineering in 20 years, and I would like our 00:45:10.335 --> 00:45:11.935 processes to reflect that where possible. 00:45:12.055 --> 00:45:16.315 So it's mostly about more automated testing, more automation in the release 00:45:16.315 --> 00:45:18.375 process, which should, if we do it well, 00:45:18.855 --> 00:45:21.735 enable us to have more trust in that release process, not less, 00:45:21.895 --> 00:45:26.295 I think, and spend less time on the mechanics of releasing and more time on 00:45:26.295 --> 00:45:28.235 polishing what it is that we're releasing. 00:45:28.835 --> 00:45:32.135 The release process should not be the exciting part about an Ubuntu release. 00:45:32.295 --> 00:45:35.095 The features that we ship and the tools that we ship should be the exciting piece. 00:45:35.375 --> 00:45:35.915 Amen to that. 00:45:36.095 --> 00:45:40.215 Well put. Okay, so kind of along the same lines of herding cats a little bit. 00:45:40.995 --> 00:45:43.735 I feel like there's more communication along the development process, 00:45:43.855 --> 00:45:47.975 in part from you, but others on the team were more on the form, blogging. 00:45:48.215 --> 00:45:51.555 Has that been, I don't know if mandate's the right word, has there been encouragement there? 00:45:51.635 --> 00:45:55.455 What's that communication like to people that are busy working on Ubuntu and 00:45:55.455 --> 00:45:58.675 focused on actually doing the development or doing the QA? 00:45:59.395 --> 00:46:02.395 How do you convince them we need you to be more public about what you're working 00:46:02.395 --> 00:46:04.275 on? And How's that gone over? 00:46:04.695 --> 00:46:07.935 Yeah. So I'll be honest, it kind of was a mandate to start with. 00:46:08.175 --> 00:46:11.935 I think what happened is Canonical, as it grew and became more grown up as a 00:46:11.935 --> 00:46:15.615 company, we adopted things like Google Workplace and Mattermost. 00:46:15.795 --> 00:46:19.095 And a lot of the communication that would previously have been public in IRC 00:46:19.095 --> 00:46:23.655 and on forums kind of naturally ended up in Mattermost and on Google Docs. 00:46:23.715 --> 00:46:25.835 That's where we were all hanging out as Canonical employees, right? 00:46:25.995 --> 00:46:30.815 And so I think lots of the process, lots of the discussion around Ubuntu suddenly 00:46:30.815 --> 00:46:35.295 became quite opaque. And one of my hopes was that I could change that a little bit. 00:46:35.455 --> 00:46:40.315 And so I did actually essentially mandate that every team that I look after, 00:46:40.455 --> 00:46:44.415 so that's the Ubuntu Desktop Server Foundations and more recently the DebCrafters team. 00:46:45.502 --> 00:46:49.122 I mandated essentially there should be at least a post every week from one of us. 00:46:49.522 --> 00:46:51.562 And to start with, I just did like a round robin. So I said, 00:46:51.682 --> 00:46:54.942 I'll go this week. You know, Foundation's the following week, 00:46:54.982 --> 00:46:57.462 Server the next week, DevCraft is the next week, and we'll just go on a rotation. 00:46:57.962 --> 00:47:02.422 And I think that was quite tough for the team. And I'm really proud of how they rose to that. 00:47:02.522 --> 00:47:06.162 But what's been interesting is that other people on those teams have seen the 00:47:06.162 --> 00:47:09.382 engagement that those posts were getting and the interest that it drives to 00:47:09.382 --> 00:47:12.062 the project and started following suit without me asking, right? 00:47:12.062 --> 00:47:16.342 And now I think it is quite clear that we have a group of developers in Ubuntu 00:47:16.342 --> 00:47:20.002 Engineering who want to talk about what they're doing because they find it interesting 00:47:20.002 --> 00:47:23.222 and they like it when people ask them questions about it and give discussion 00:47:23.222 --> 00:47:26.902 and thoughts for improvement and things like that. So it started out as a mandate. 00:47:27.122 --> 00:47:30.022 I do put my hand up. There is still a bit of a mandate. 00:47:30.182 --> 00:47:32.742 I do expect there to be something every week from Ubuntu Engineering, 00:47:32.762 --> 00:47:35.662 but there's much more than that happening, which I'm really pleased to see. 00:47:35.882 --> 00:47:38.602 Well, it's great to see from the outside. It feels like life. 00:47:38.902 --> 00:47:41.502 Yeah, I mean, it's good for us, just, you know, for our business. 00:47:41.502 --> 00:47:44.142 But it feels good for the community too, right? There's more to pay attention 00:47:44.142 --> 00:47:46.122 to, more to keep Ubuntu fresh in your mind. 00:47:46.322 --> 00:47:51.742 Yeah. All right, so let's talk about 2510. We've got a new GNOME 49 in there, 00:47:51.842 --> 00:47:54.242 right? So that means we're going to get a lot of nice stuff like HDR. 00:47:55.122 --> 00:47:58.922 What should we talk about with 2510? What's the big thing on your mind? 00:47:59.102 --> 00:48:02.362 The big controversial thing, perhaps controversial, I don't know, 00:48:02.482 --> 00:48:03.822 is the Rust utilities, right? 00:48:03.902 --> 00:48:09.522 So we replaced GNU Core Utils with the UUtils implementation and we replaced Sulu with Sulu RS. 00:48:09.522 --> 00:48:14.942 And they to varying degrees represent the most risk, I suppose, 00:48:15.202 --> 00:48:19.162 but I feel comfortable about it, particularly Sulu RS, which is a much tighter 00:48:19.162 --> 00:48:23.702 in scope and therefore it's easier for us to kind of reason about the impact it's likely to have. 00:48:23.982 --> 00:48:27.622 But the relationship that we've got with the UU Tools Project and the Trifecta 00:48:27.622 --> 00:48:29.322 Tech Foundation has been phenomenal. 00:48:29.682 --> 00:48:33.682 We've been speaking with them pretty much weekly, if not more regularly throughout 00:48:33.682 --> 00:48:36.682 the entire cycle. They've been super responsive to bugs and feedback. 00:48:36.902 --> 00:48:39.362 And so really I see 2510 as a bit of a proving ground. 00:48:39.822 --> 00:48:43.502 There are still a handful of utilities that we have diverted back to the GNU 00:48:43.502 --> 00:48:46.582 implementations where we see that there are issues still. 00:48:47.042 --> 00:48:49.422 Because at the end of the day, as much as I would love to push this, I don't, 00:48:49.998 --> 00:48:53.138 I'm not going to do it irresponsibly and just push broken stuff to people's machines, right? 00:48:53.238 --> 00:48:55.958 So the idea is that we would iron out all of those issues throughout this cycle, 00:48:55.978 --> 00:48:59.218 and for 2604, be as close to a full replacement as we possibly can. 00:48:59.418 --> 00:49:02.438 What do you consider to be a major issue with the REST tooling right now? 00:49:02.558 --> 00:49:06.938 So we have an issue that I think was reported on Pheronics, where there is a 00:49:06.938 --> 00:49:11.278 slight discrepancy between how the MD5 checksum tool behaves in certain cases, 00:49:11.418 --> 00:49:16.278 which impacts MakeSelf archives, which is used as part of the Pheronics test suite. 00:49:16.278 --> 00:49:19.518 There was an issue with directory traversal so 00:49:19.518 --> 00:49:22.338 some of the code for the tools that have the ability 00:49:22.338 --> 00:49:25.298 to recurse through directories maybe that is um trying to 00:49:25.298 --> 00:49:28.078 be an example anything like ls or cp or move or anything like that the 00:49:28.078 --> 00:49:33.038 directory traversal code uh was written quite naively and could could be left 00:49:33.038 --> 00:49:36.018 vulnerable so we kind of waited for that to be fixed before we moved across 00:49:36.018 --> 00:49:39.958 there's been a handful of issues some of them really tiny some of them less 00:49:39.958 --> 00:49:44.018 tiny there was one that bit us where the date command output the date in a slightly 00:49:44.018 --> 00:49:47.978 wrong format and broke a huge number of the package builds in the archive. 00:49:48.218 --> 00:49:52.178 That's a classic programming thing, right? I mean, who wants to work with dates? 00:49:53.178 --> 00:49:56.798 There is a link. I wrote a blog post last week saying kind of a retrospective 00:49:56.798 --> 00:50:00.298 about this. And there's a link which shows the list of all the utilities that we've diverted back. 00:50:00.518 --> 00:50:03.258 And the bug tracker is really active. And the maintainer is in there helping 00:50:03.258 --> 00:50:06.558 us out, along with what appears to be a really nice, vibrant, 00:50:06.698 --> 00:50:08.118 active community around that project. 00:50:08.918 --> 00:50:12.538 You mentioned your relationship with Upstream. And when you were here last time, I think you're, 00:50:13.368 --> 00:50:16.508 pretty hopeful about how this could be good, not only for pushing Ubuntu and 00:50:16.508 --> 00:50:19.848 the Linux desktop forward, but also for these upstream projects. How has that been going? 00:50:20.048 --> 00:50:24.868 Yeah, I mean, from my opinion, it's great. So the way this sort of unfolded 00:50:24.868 --> 00:50:26.928 is I had the idea that I would like to do it. 00:50:27.048 --> 00:50:31.748 I reached out to Sylvester, who's the kind of project leader for utils and said 00:50:31.748 --> 00:50:33.028 that I was interested in doing this. 00:50:33.228 --> 00:50:37.608 And did he think the project was ready? And would he need some funding to help 00:50:37.608 --> 00:50:39.188 out, which we agreed and kind of move forward. 00:50:39.328 --> 00:50:42.108 And similarly for sudo right i reached out to the folks there and 00:50:42.108 --> 00:50:45.288 said i'm interested in doing this what do you think both responded with 00:50:45.288 --> 00:50:48.388 huge enthusiasm we did a bit of back and forth on some 00:50:48.388 --> 00:50:51.068 feature work that we would need doing or some some targeted effort on 00:50:51.068 --> 00:50:54.468 bugs and yeah i think they're certainly 00:50:54.468 --> 00:50:57.228 getting increased interest we don't 00:50:57.228 --> 00:51:01.188 know exactly how many ubuntu users there are because we 00:51:01.188 --> 00:51:04.628 have very limited telemetry anyway and anyone who has kind of behind a corporate 00:51:04.628 --> 00:51:08.648 firewall or opts out of it we don't get it so we don't know exactly how many 00:51:08.648 --> 00:51:12.748 there are but it's there's definitely more than 10 million desktop users alone 00:51:12.748 --> 00:51:15.808 i shudder to think how many server users there are so you've got to imagine 00:51:15.808 --> 00:51:20.648 a pretty enormous increase in their daily users as a result of this and. 00:51:20.648 --> 00:51:23.848 I mean i think it's showing right like one way to view this is maybe okay it's 00:51:23.848 --> 00:51:27.188 not fully ready if we're still finding these issues but another is okay the 00:51:27.188 --> 00:51:30.748 massive scale that ubuntu brings means you actually finally do find a lot of 00:51:30.748 --> 00:51:34.168 these edge cases and can really iron out your software to make it you know robust. 00:51:34.168 --> 00:51:36.868 And hopefully they then have some funding like if 00:51:36.868 --> 00:51:40.168 they can't fix the issue themselves they have some funding to pay 00:51:40.168 --> 00:51:42.768 other developers to help them out right like pay bounties a lot 00:51:42.768 --> 00:51:45.748 of the issues have been performance issues so that i found an issue with word 00:51:45.748 --> 00:51:48.428 count which made it 10 slower than the gnu 00:51:48.428 --> 00:51:52.648 implementation i found an issue someone found that interesting two days later 00:51:52.648 --> 00:51:57.848 it was 11 faster than the gnu one right like so there definitely are going to 00:51:57.848 --> 00:52:01.468 be places where there are rough edges we we won't we certainly haven't exhausted 00:52:01.468 --> 00:52:05.828 every code path right but actually overall i'm surprised at how surface level 00:52:05.828 --> 00:52:08.228 much of the problems we found have been yeah. 00:52:08.228 --> 00:52:09.408 That's my takeaway, 00:52:10.167 --> 00:52:13.287 Before we move completely off of Rust, one last question is, 00:52:13.427 --> 00:52:17.067 it seems like some people that are building on Rust find themselves in this 00:52:17.067 --> 00:52:20.067 contentious spot where it's a hot topic online. 00:52:20.407 --> 00:52:24.927 People love debating sort of like these hot button issues in the Linux community, 00:52:24.927 --> 00:52:26.167 and Rust has become one of them. 00:52:26.507 --> 00:52:28.947 And it seems like, oh, you want to push this forward at the same time, 00:52:29.047 --> 00:52:32.387 not really engage in that. How do you walk that? Is that a challenge? 00:52:33.247 --> 00:52:37.687 You know, is it a brand risk association at all? Those types of things. 00:52:38.407 --> 00:52:41.907 I have tried to steer clear of those sorts of conversations, 00:52:42.447 --> 00:52:43.527 not to not address it here. 00:52:43.647 --> 00:52:46.807 So one of the biggest criticisms that we got for this, or I got for this, 00:52:46.967 --> 00:52:49.267 was the change in license of the core utils package. 00:52:49.547 --> 00:52:50.347 There were lots of people that 00:52:50.347 --> 00:52:54.707 were very concerned that the Rust implementation is not GPL, it's MIT. 00:52:55.127 --> 00:52:59.147 The opinion I've come to is that, as far as I can tell, the values of the utils 00:52:59.147 --> 00:53:01.967 project are very well aligned with that of Ubuntu. 00:53:02.247 --> 00:53:05.047 And so in reality, anybody who installs Ubuntu 00:53:05.047 --> 00:53:08.127 on a machine is entering a sort of trust relationship with canonical right 00:53:08.127 --> 00:53:11.407 like every time you run app we root on your machine that's how apt works you 00:53:11.407 --> 00:53:14.527 kind of have to trust us and so i think 00:53:14.527 --> 00:53:17.687 my view is that it's not 00:53:17.687 --> 00:53:20.967 like we wrote the core utils code in the first place we were shipping canoes core 00:53:20.967 --> 00:53:24.067 utils their values aligned with ours the code was you 00:53:24.067 --> 00:53:26.867 know provided something we needed and now we're shipping a different 00:53:26.867 --> 00:53:30.707 implementation and if something were to change and i felt like or we felt like 00:53:30.707 --> 00:53:34.207 the utils project was not representative of the values of ubuntu or was not 00:53:34.207 --> 00:53:37.247 servicing our community well either we'd ship the canoe one again or we'd ship 00:53:37.247 --> 00:53:40.567 something else do you know i mean like we're a we're a distribution we're curating 00:53:40.567 --> 00:53:44.647 what we think is the best for our users and i think particularly in the case of core utils, 00:53:45.147 --> 00:53:50.027 i don't see it as a huge money maker for anyone in a sense like i think for 00:53:50.027 --> 00:53:53.527 things like elastic search is one of these famous cases where the licensing 00:53:53.527 --> 00:53:58.127 put them in a complicated position commercially and they've changed their licensing 00:53:58.127 --> 00:54:00.367 terms and that's that's gone how that's gone. 00:54:00.927 --> 00:54:04.847 I don't see as much of a risk with core utils personally like canonical is certainly 00:54:04.847 --> 00:54:06.947 not making a move to try and monetize core utils. 00:54:07.087 --> 00:54:09.027 We're just shipping something that we think is going to be a bit faster and 00:54:09.027 --> 00:54:11.727 it's safer in the long term, right? And a bit easier for us to maintain in the 00:54:11.727 --> 00:54:13.507 long term. And that's really all there is to it. 00:54:13.847 --> 00:54:16.987 I've heard you talk about building with a 20-year mindset. 00:54:17.793 --> 00:54:20.493 And that's where this plays in, right? It's maintaining software that enterprises 00:54:20.493 --> 00:54:23.033 run for just a bonkers long amount of time. 00:54:23.353 --> 00:54:26.773 Yeah, I mean, we do 12 years extended support at the moment. 00:54:26.993 --> 00:54:28.373 There's talk of possibly extending that. 00:54:28.893 --> 00:54:33.533 And in reality, I want us to be maintaining code that's as easy for us to build, 00:54:33.753 --> 00:54:37.453 test, find contributors to as we possibly can. Obviously, we want to do that. 00:54:37.553 --> 00:54:41.453 We want to make that task as easy as possible, not only so we can get the fixes 00:54:41.453 --> 00:54:45.213 out sooner, but the easier each piece of software is for us to maintain, 00:54:45.333 --> 00:54:47.593 the more pieces of software we can maintain at the end of the day. 00:54:47.973 --> 00:54:50.273 Okay, I want to ask you one other thing that sounds pretty neat. 00:54:50.613 --> 00:54:55.773 I believe this is the release where initRAMFS tools has been replaced. 00:54:56.113 --> 00:55:00.833 Yes, on the desktop. So in 2510, we're using Draycut. I don't know how to pronounce 00:55:00.833 --> 00:55:01.893 that. I think it's Draycut. 00:55:02.233 --> 00:55:04.493 So we're using that on 2510 for desktop. 00:55:04.913 --> 00:55:09.173 Work is underway to do that for the server, but there were a few use cases where 00:55:09.173 --> 00:55:12.533 we hadn't quite ironed things out. So we haven't rolled it out to server just yet. 00:55:12.753 --> 00:55:16.213 Work is ongoing. My hope is that we would do that for 2604 but again not if 00:55:16.213 --> 00:55:18.893 we can't be very sure the difficulty there is in, 00:55:19.713 --> 00:55:23.513 cases where people need to load kind of weird drivers early on in server boot 00:55:23.513 --> 00:55:27.233 perhaps for like a fancy networking card or whatever it might be we just haven't 00:55:27.233 --> 00:55:31.413 quite got there yet but yes on if you install questing from for your desktop 00:55:31.413 --> 00:55:34.093 you'll be using trade cut not the nitro mfs tools that. 00:55:34.093 --> 00:55:40.153 Seems exciting yeah i'm curious uh just um firstly what was the motivation you know to make the switch. 00:55:40.313 --> 00:55:43.553 And then secondly, I believe this is just an Ubuntu layer switch. 00:55:43.673 --> 00:55:45.993 This isn't something Debian was also doing, right? 00:55:46.673 --> 00:55:50.773 Yeah. So the motivation there is, I think, stability of kind of boot. 00:55:50.933 --> 00:55:54.433 I mean, it's a few less bash scripts in the boot path. It also enables us to 00:55:54.433 --> 00:55:58.873 use the system DNIT scripts, which theoretically gives us a slight performance advantage. 00:55:59.193 --> 00:56:04.413 And the regeneration of the kernel image at kind of apt, if you apt upgrade and you get a new kernel, 00:56:04.553 --> 00:56:08.173 the regeneration of the kernel image should be slightly faster but broadly it 00:56:08.173 --> 00:56:12.793 was seen as a way of getting more bash out of the boot essentially um so just 00:56:12.793 --> 00:56:15.253 a slightly more robust way to boot a system yeah. 00:56:15.253 --> 00:56:16.573 And less bash to maintain hopefully. 00:56:16.573 --> 00:56:20.873 So the next question i have for you and i imagine this probably really won't 00:56:20.873 --> 00:56:25.313 be much of a story a couple of days after release but uh what's going on around 00:56:25.313 --> 00:56:30.313 release day with flat packs and 2510 are there problems there right now are those being resolved. 00:56:30.313 --> 00:56:33.293 Yeah indeed there was a problem there so you're aware that we use snap 00:56:33.293 --> 00:56:36.373 packaging mostly on ubuntu and the security confinement 00:56:36.373 --> 00:56:39.113 for snap packages is provided by app armor and but app 00:56:39.113 --> 00:56:41.753 armor doesn't only work for snaps right so app armor is a 00:56:41.753 --> 00:56:44.793 generic Linux security module in lieu of se linux 00:56:44.793 --> 00:56:47.593 or anything else and part of an effort that's been going on 00:56:47.593 --> 00:56:50.813 in canonical for the last kind of year or so is an 00:56:50.813 --> 00:56:54.213 effort to just ship way more app armor profiles for everything in the archive 00:56:54.213 --> 00:56:59.233 so that that you know increasingly as you install things from the archive they 00:56:59.233 --> 00:57:02.553 can only access the things on your system they're supposed to access right so 00:57:02.553 --> 00:57:07.913 if you ship i don't know uh pdf reader should that thing be able to automatically 00:57:07.913 --> 00:57:09.233 get access to your camera, 00:57:09.875 --> 00:57:12.855 probably not right like so that's a maybe a contrived 00:57:12.855 --> 00:57:15.495 example but the idea is we will ship more and more app armor profiles to 00:57:15.495 --> 00:57:19.095 make sure that every piece of software you get from the ubuntu archive can 00:57:19.095 --> 00:57:21.875 only read file system paths and devices that it should be 00:57:21.875 --> 00:57:24.875 able to read and in this case i believe the root 00:57:24.875 --> 00:57:29.155 cause of the issue was we shipped an app armor profile for i want to say fuse 00:57:29.155 --> 00:57:33.295 and we got something wrong and essentially that stopped flatpak from functioning 00:57:33.295 --> 00:57:36.815 correctly there is a fix underway if it's not already complete it was almost 00:57:36.815 --> 00:57:40.995 finished on friday and so that will get kind of backported backend or SIU'd 00:57:40.995 --> 00:57:42.775 back into crusting as soon as it's ready. 00:57:43.035 --> 00:57:48.295 We have been really impressed with the fact that you stuck to the plan of shipping 00:57:48.295 --> 00:57:52.815 really recent kernels, hot kernels, the fresh stuff. 00:57:52.855 --> 00:57:55.095 We love that. And I mean, 6.17. 00:57:55.415 --> 00:57:57.355 Right in 25.10 as it's released. That's great. 00:57:57.575 --> 00:58:02.835 Yeah. We have a policy with both GNOME and kernel. The policy is basically just ship it, right? 00:58:02.915 --> 00:58:05.615 Like even if it's in RC, there's a motivation behind this. 00:58:05.715 --> 00:58:09.415 So our kernel team is big it's one of the biggest engineering teams at canonical and 00:58:09.415 --> 00:58:12.295 in the desktop it's important right people want things like hdr support they 00:58:12.295 --> 00:58:15.295 want better accessibility we're a little bit beholden to 00:58:15.295 --> 00:58:18.015 other people's release cadence except that our releases are 00:58:18.015 --> 00:58:20.715 literally named after a month we release it and so we we can't really 00:58:20.715 --> 00:58:23.515 delay them and so the deal 00:58:23.515 --> 00:58:26.515 that we have done with our kernel team and the agreement we 00:58:26.515 --> 00:58:29.875 have in the desktop team is basically we will always ship the latest 00:58:29.875 --> 00:58:32.615 gnome or the latest kernel even if it's in release 00:58:32.615 --> 00:58:35.315 candidate when we release and then as soon as the thing is out we will make 00:58:35.315 --> 00:58:38.735 sure that the fully released version is in and the reason is in 00:58:38.735 --> 00:58:44.235 reality we have to maintain the thing for 12 years anyway it may as well be 00:58:44.235 --> 00:58:47.455 the latest most modern thing we possibly can and there's nothing to say just 00:58:47.455 --> 00:58:51.695 because it's an rc there's going to be a bad kernel like in the past we've picked 00:58:51.695 --> 00:58:55.015 kernels that have been stable and they've still been horrifying to maintain 00:58:55.015 --> 00:58:57.595 for whatever reason rather we picked a bad kernel to 00:58:57.895 --> 00:59:01.695 choose and so the the view is basically well we may as well just ship the very 00:59:01.695 --> 00:59:05.255 latest we can It's most likely to have the most fixes, the most hardware support, 00:59:05.375 --> 00:59:09.895 the most features, and we're going to have to maintain it either way. So why not? 00:59:10.855 --> 00:59:16.095 Yeah, it just makes so much sense to me. Okay, I want to shift gears and ask 00:59:16.095 --> 00:59:21.695 you if there's anything you're kind of taking as observations or lessons from 00:59:21.695 --> 00:59:26.635 the relative popularity that a new meta distro or distribution called Oma Archie 00:59:26.635 --> 00:59:27.915 has gotten in the last six months. 00:59:27.915 --> 00:59:35.055 My rough you know napkin math puts them around 30 to 40 000 users so you know let's put it. 00:59:35.055 --> 00:59:35.775 In perspective. 00:59:35.775 --> 00:59:39.755 For the ubuntu desktop but i'm curious if you're noticing anything there trends 00:59:39.755 --> 00:59:42.395 of the types of users or what seems to be appealing to people. 00:59:42.395 --> 00:59:45.555 I think what's interesting about that is 00:59:45.555 --> 00:59:48.435 precisely what you're saying is perhaps because 00:59:48.435 --> 00:59:52.435 of the the people who make it and their background it is capturing a certain 00:59:52.435 --> 00:59:56.115 kind of audience right there certainly i'm sure ruby developers rails developers 00:59:56.115 --> 01:00:00.115 but there's a whole bunch of people who have been using Macs for a certain kind 01:00:00.115 --> 01:00:05.255 of development who are now trying out Linux because people in their circles 01:00:05.255 --> 01:00:06.795 are trying out Linux and finding it, 01:00:07.671 --> 01:00:10.851 And I would honestly love to make Ubuntu a place where those people could have 01:00:10.851 --> 01:00:14.491 a great life. I think the mythical new user story is important. 01:00:14.691 --> 01:00:17.991 I care about new users. I care about inexperienced people using computers. 01:00:18.171 --> 01:00:21.991 But I actually think for Ubuntu, I do believe that for the desktop, 01:00:22.191 --> 01:00:24.411 a huge part of our market has to be developers, right? 01:00:24.531 --> 01:00:27.911 It has to be people who are either developing professionally. 01:00:27.911 --> 01:00:32.791 So we see huge growth in our WSL numbers, like monumental growth in WSL, 01:00:32.891 --> 01:00:36.371 the number of people who are using Ubuntu on Windows to do their development 01:00:36.371 --> 01:00:39.751 work. or maybe it's just people messing around with the SP home or whatever 01:00:39.751 --> 01:00:41.051 it is, right, tinkering at home. 01:00:41.231 --> 01:00:45.611 And so we actually have a whole toolchains team, which has grown a lot in the 01:00:45.611 --> 01:00:49.331 last year, focused on trying to make the development experience on Ubuntu as 01:00:49.331 --> 01:00:52.051 good as we possibly can, whether you're a Rust developer, a Java developer. 01:00:52.551 --> 01:00:58.131 And I think Omachi and others are kind of proving the point that even if you've 01:00:58.131 --> 01:01:01.691 been a Mac user for 10 years, at this point, there's probably enough maturity 01:01:01.691 --> 01:01:04.731 on Linux for those people to have a great experience developing on Linux too. 01:01:04.731 --> 01:01:09.291 Yeah, it seems to me one of the things that's appealing, although it's not something 01:01:09.291 --> 01:01:14.271 that hasn't been tried before, is an opinionated, ready-to-go setup that makes 01:01:14.271 --> 01:01:15.971 starting for developers easy. 01:01:16.091 --> 01:01:18.531 That's one of the things I see on social media a lot is, oh, 01:01:18.551 --> 01:01:19.611 I was able to just get going. 01:01:19.971 --> 01:01:23.351 And we've seen Ubuntu take cracks at this. We've seen a lot of distributions 01:01:23.351 --> 01:01:26.891 take one or two commands to set up an entire development environment. 01:01:27.311 --> 01:01:31.371 So that's not necessarily a new idea, but yet it's resonating this time. 01:01:31.371 --> 01:01:36.151 Do you think it's a desktop environment aspect as well, or do you think it's 01:01:36.151 --> 01:01:41.011 just a matter of Windows 10 is going away, Windows 11 isn't satisfying people, 01:01:41.111 --> 01:01:44.851 or the requirements are too high, and the Mac desktop seems to be ignoring developers? 01:01:44.991 --> 01:01:48.631 Do you think it's just the proprietary platforms are blowing it right now, 01:01:48.651 --> 01:01:53.191 or is there something that Omar Archie has nailed in the presentation that maybe 01:01:53.191 --> 01:01:56.011 the other distributions have missed, even though they've taken a stab at an 01:01:56.011 --> 01:01:57.431 opinionated, out-of-the-box setup? 01:01:57.431 --> 01:02:01.951 I think it's both. My experience with macOS is it maybe hasn't got the attention 01:02:01.951 --> 01:02:03.271 it used to get from Apple. 01:02:03.591 --> 01:02:08.231 I was a macOS user for years, and I remember very proudly telling people that 01:02:08.231 --> 01:02:11.751 it was the best computer I'd ever had, and I would be very surprised if someone 01:02:11.751 --> 01:02:12.431 convinced me otherwise. 01:02:12.591 --> 01:02:17.431 And my feeling of that over time, this was many years ago now, 01:02:17.511 --> 01:02:19.331 but was that it started to go a bit stale. 01:02:19.451 --> 01:02:22.191 And I think we see that a lot with the focus on iOS and iPadOS. 01:02:22.291 --> 01:02:25.131 I don't think there's the same level of investment there, personally. 01:02:25.691 --> 01:02:30.711 I also think what's interesting about Omachi to me is that they chose something 01:02:30.711 --> 01:02:35.671 like Hyperland, they chose Arch, and I wonder how many developers are experienced 01:02:35.671 --> 01:02:39.211 technical people who have always been curious about Arch but have heard how hard it is to install. 01:02:39.351 --> 01:02:42.211 They're curious about Hyperland because they see these amazing screenshots on the internet. 01:02:42.471 --> 01:02:45.511 And this is just a really, really nice way to get going, right? 01:02:45.551 --> 01:02:48.251 Even just in a VM, like you install it, oh wow, that was really easy, 01:02:48.311 --> 01:02:49.391 I can now play with it right away. 01:02:49.551 --> 01:02:51.831 So it's just made a whole collection of, 01:02:52.638 --> 01:02:56.638 quite niche ultimately technologies really accessible and they are interesting 01:02:56.638 --> 01:03:00.338 right they're exciting things to play with so i think it's a combination of factors. 01:03:00.338 --> 01:03:03.178 I wonder if it's not the trend but an 01:03:03.178 --> 01:03:05.898 indication of a trend that we're going to see like 01:03:05.898 --> 01:03:09.838 this could be the leading edge ultimately i 01:03:09.838 --> 01:03:13.078 think if you're going to maintain an arch box it's probably 01:03:13.078 --> 01:03:15.858 good that you understand how that arch box is 01:03:15.858 --> 01:03:18.578 set up long term for sure i wonder if this 01:03:18.578 --> 01:03:21.718 isn't a leading edge and if you aren't 01:03:21.718 --> 01:03:25.158 getting that puck skating if you'll excuse this really horrible metaphor if 01:03:25.158 --> 01:03:28.678 you aren't beginning to get that puck skating for the ubuntu desktop where this 01:03:28.678 --> 01:03:33.198 trend might be going we may be just seeing the very beginning of this and is 01:03:33.198 --> 01:03:36.218 this kind of idea been in the back of your head as you've been pushing to make 01:03:36.218 --> 01:03:39.778 the interim releases more interesting and engage more with the community is 01:03:39.778 --> 01:03:41.298 that sort of the strategy here yeah. 01:03:41.298 --> 01:03:46.918 What i would like is that for people on ubuntu or people who are on Linux for 01:03:46.918 --> 01:03:50.378 work, and it happens to be Ubuntu, for example, that when they hear about something 01:03:50.378 --> 01:03:56.038 new or exciting or useful, it is available to them in an up-to-date and well-maintained form. 01:03:56.398 --> 01:04:00.278 Now, some of those are going to be snaps, sorry. You know, like the people who, 01:04:00.498 --> 01:04:02.698 there's lots of people have opinions about those and that's fine. 01:04:02.978 --> 01:04:09.218 But snaps give us this superpower, basically, to ship software to all manner 01:04:09.218 --> 01:04:12.838 of different Ubuntu releases over a really long period of time and keep backporting 01:04:12.838 --> 01:04:14.138 features to those releases, right? 01:04:14.138 --> 01:04:18.458 So we have some work upcoming on kind of like portable developer environments 01:04:18.458 --> 01:04:19.958 that will come out next year. 01:04:20.738 --> 01:04:24.698 But also our tool chain teams are working on things like they have these things 01:04:24.698 --> 01:04:26.638 called DevPacks. There's a DevPack for Spring. 01:04:26.798 --> 01:04:30.538 So if you're a Spring boot developer, you can get like the latest Java development 01:04:30.538 --> 01:04:34.918 kits and the Graal VM compiler and all these like shiny things that Java developers 01:04:34.918 --> 01:04:36.358 would want by installing a single snap. 01:04:36.618 --> 01:04:39.538 And the environment is completely set up for you to just get on with your work and work in Spring. 01:04:39.798 --> 01:04:42.038 And we're doing the same for Go. We're doing the same for Rust, 01:04:42.138 --> 01:04:45.478 for .NET. And so I would like for, 01:04:46.318 --> 01:04:49.978 not just the tool chain to be up to date in the archive, which is kind of necessary 01:04:49.978 --> 01:04:51.938 for us to build the software we ship, 01:04:52.198 --> 01:04:56.298 but also for developers to be able to get all of the LSPs and static analyzers 01:04:56.298 --> 01:04:59.338 and formaters that they hear about really, really easily on their Ubuntu machine 01:04:59.338 --> 01:05:03.578 without having to like curl to bash, add some GPG keys to your machine. 01:05:04.618 --> 01:05:07.198 Like that's an odd trust relationship at the end of the day. 01:05:07.378 --> 01:05:12.358 You see a piece of software, add a PPA to your machine, and then you run the 01:05:12.358 --> 01:05:14.978 maintainer scripts and that thing as root every time you update the package. 01:05:15.538 --> 01:05:17.018 Until it's no longer available. 01:05:17.018 --> 01:05:20.278 Until it's no longer available and you know 01:05:20.278 --> 01:05:23.458 sure you're giving root to canonical when you run apt but 01:05:23.458 --> 01:05:26.078 like i say if you you kind of have to trust canonical if you go to 01:05:26.078 --> 01:05:28.818 run ubuntu right in a sense um and so it would be in my 01:05:28.818 --> 01:05:32.198 view if you're going to have to give that ultimate trust to somebody you want 01:05:32.198 --> 01:05:35.438 to limit the number of people you give it to right and so we can publish you 01:05:35.438 --> 01:05:38.898 know security maintained kind of verified snaps on the store and we can push 01:05:38.898 --> 01:05:42.118 things into the archive but there are some kinds of software that it's much 01:05:42.118 --> 01:05:45.498 simpler for us to ship to a much higher number of users with something like 01:05:45.498 --> 01:05:47.758 Snaps, for example, or as a container image, perhaps. 01:05:48.398 --> 01:05:51.278 Yeah, it seems like, I mean, Snaps are kind of, at least for the dev stuff you 01:05:51.278 --> 01:05:54.178 were talking about, Snaps are allowing you to bring containerized development 01:05:54.178 --> 01:05:57.798 and deployment workflows, but in a, I guess, you know, a different flavor than 01:05:57.798 --> 01:05:59.398 you see in tools like Docker and Podman. 01:05:59.898 --> 01:06:00.078 Right. 01:06:00.698 --> 01:06:04.238 John, I could ask you thousands of more questions. We should probably, 01:06:04.298 --> 01:06:06.898 we should check in again in a few months. 01:06:07.158 --> 01:06:07.778 Yeah, for sure. 01:06:07.878 --> 01:06:11.358 Is there anything we didn't touch on that you want to touch on before we wrap up? 01:06:11.358 --> 01:06:16.658 There is a really nice step towards a better TPM full disk encryption setup. 01:06:16.858 --> 01:06:19.178 So this is essentially where you want to have an encrypted disk, 01:06:19.358 --> 01:06:21.238 but you don't want to enter your password twice when you boot up. 01:06:21.518 --> 01:06:25.098 So it basically allows you to store that disk encryption key in the TPM. 01:06:25.258 --> 01:06:27.958 And assuming that the kernel hasn't been tampered with and the command hasn't 01:06:27.958 --> 01:06:30.838 been changed and the machine hasn't been messed with, it should unlock the disk automatically. 01:06:31.378 --> 01:06:34.498 We've had that as an option, an experimental option in our installer for some 01:06:34.498 --> 01:06:38.778 time, and I'm pushing really hard for us to have that not as experimental for 2604. 01:06:39.098 --> 01:06:41.978 It's in better shape than it's ever been. There's been a huge amount of work 01:06:41.978 --> 01:06:45.058 on it, which you can read a bit about on our discourse or in my blog. 01:06:45.318 --> 01:06:48.858 But I'd really encourage people to give that a go, particularly on machines 01:06:48.858 --> 01:06:50.378 with slightly simpler partitioning setups. 01:06:50.538 --> 01:06:53.698 At the moment, it's kind of single root partition kind of thing. 01:06:53.838 --> 01:06:56.718 But I'm really proud of the way the team have come together. 01:06:56.838 --> 01:07:01.578 That is an effort across Snapd and kernel and desktop. It's a huge effort to 01:07:01.578 --> 01:07:04.858 bring that across the line, and the more feedback we can get on it, the better. 01:07:05.058 --> 01:07:09.838 So I think that's a really interesting piece of work that is a genuine win, right? 01:07:09.958 --> 01:07:13.638 You get better security and better usability, like we don't often get to have, 01:07:14.393 --> 01:07:15.813 both of those things at the same time. 01:07:16.313 --> 01:07:18.653 Yeah, I'm curious, is that kind of what was driving it as an effort for just 01:07:18.653 --> 01:07:21.693 the general experience? Or is this something that you've also seen maybe asks 01:07:21.693 --> 01:07:24.593 from, you know, people doing enterprise desktop deployments, that kind of thing? 01:07:25.093 --> 01:07:29.053 Yeah, I mean, firstly, as a user of it myself, I would like this. 01:07:29.253 --> 01:07:32.973 And secondly, for sure, if you look at things like the macOS FileVault or Windows 01:07:32.973 --> 01:07:35.993 BitLocker, like these are features that people have come to expect in operating 01:07:35.993 --> 01:07:38.613 systems in an enterprise environment, and we also play in that space. 01:07:39.093 --> 01:07:41.353 So I think it's important for us to provide that. 01:07:41.793 --> 01:07:45.853 Okay, one last pet question. just because I want to be able to pick your brain on this. 01:07:46.373 --> 01:07:49.433 What are your thoughts, maybe after the LTS, 01:07:49.613 --> 01:07:52.073 I don't know, but down the road, so no time commitments, but what are your thoughts 01:07:52.073 --> 01:07:59.713 on integration of a BcacheFS DKMS module or giving BcacheFS access to users 01:07:59.713 --> 01:08:03.233 during the install of one of the interim releases sometime in the future? 01:08:03.373 --> 01:08:05.333 Is that on your radar at all, John? 01:08:05.573 --> 01:08:09.453 I haven't got it planned, but I'm not against it. I've been following the whole 01:08:09.453 --> 01:08:11.873 BcacheFS story quite closely. 01:08:11.873 --> 01:08:14.733 We obviously did some work on zfs a 01:08:14.733 --> 01:08:17.853 few years ago which still exists so you can still install zfs on 01:08:17.853 --> 01:08:21.353 root and things like zsys which is our tooling around it still exists we are 01:08:21.353 --> 01:08:25.893 actually working um so subiquity which is the the kind of installer that sits 01:08:25.893 --> 01:08:29.213 beneath the graphical installer for desktop and in fact the actual installer 01:08:29.213 --> 01:08:33.013 you interact with on a server can support all kinds of different partitioning 01:08:33.013 --> 01:08:35.873 schemes it's quite limited at the moment but we're doing some work this cycle, 01:08:36.333 --> 01:08:37.853 specifically to enable a couple 01:08:37.853 --> 01:08:40.573 of the ubuntu flavors to have a slightly different partitioning layout. 01:08:40.793 --> 01:08:43.953 So that would open the door for more complex partitioning schemes, 01:08:44.333 --> 01:08:48.033 sort of guided partitioning schemes rather than manual partitioning where people wanted that. 01:08:48.433 --> 01:08:53.993 As for BcacheFS itself, I am not against it. It's not planned work right now. 01:08:54.133 --> 01:08:57.733 I don't see it as super high priority at the moment, but equally, 01:08:58.073 --> 01:09:00.393 like we ship our own kernel, right? 01:09:00.513 --> 01:09:04.613 So we have always chosen what goes into that kernel and what doesn't, 01:09:04.673 --> 01:09:07.373 which drivers we ship, which fast systems we ship, and this would just be another 01:09:07.373 --> 01:09:12.213 variable there right i don't think it's a particularly controversial decision for us at least. 01:09:12.213 --> 01:09:13.493 Right famously. 01:09:13.493 --> 01:09:16.213 For example we ship zfs where lots of distros have shied away from that. 01:09:16.213 --> 01:09:19.253 And seemingly has worked out great so far and many users 01:09:19.253 --> 01:09:22.233 appreciate the fact that you do right so john thank 01:09:22.233 --> 01:09:24.773 you so much for spending a little time with us i'd love to do it again maybe 01:09:24.773 --> 01:09:28.333 in april if you're available and uh pick your brain again then absolutely well 01:09:28.333 --> 01:09:32.973 thank you so much and congrats on the release we'll link to uh your post about 01:09:32.973 --> 01:09:36.753 it and as well as some of the community discussions and of course the downloads 01:09:36.753 --> 01:09:39.053 and any other links you want to send our way, we'll throw in the show notes 01:09:39.053 --> 01:09:40.353 and come back real soon, sir. 01:09:48.996 --> 01:09:52.256 Linuxunplugged.com slash membership. Go there to support the show and you get 01:09:52.256 --> 01:09:56.296 access to the bootleg feed, which is clocking in at one hour and 58 minutes 01:09:56.296 --> 01:10:00.356 right now as we record lots of extra content, discussion, news that didn't fit 01:10:00.356 --> 01:10:01.336 into the topic of the week. 01:10:01.716 --> 01:10:04.836 All that stuff is there and it's a great way to support the show directly. 01:10:04.976 --> 01:10:06.776 You just put your support on autopilot. 01:10:06.976 --> 01:10:10.136 And one of the things that our members made possible, just our community in 01:10:10.136 --> 01:10:12.376 general has been really supportive over this last year. 01:10:12.696 --> 01:10:17.536 We didn't talk about it on this trip, but once again, the headsets that you 01:10:17.536 --> 01:10:20.336 helped us fundraise for LinuxFest Northwest, I think it was, 01:10:20.436 --> 01:10:22.596 or it was for scale maybe, because we use them at LinuxFest Northwest. 01:10:22.636 --> 01:10:25.496 We use them at scale. We've used them at Texas LinuxFest. 01:10:26.176 --> 01:10:29.936 Unbelievably how great they are. I mean, right, right. It totally has been fantastic. 01:10:30.216 --> 01:10:33.496 Yeah, absolutely. I was able to use one when I went to NixVegas. 01:10:33.616 --> 01:10:33.816 Right. 01:10:34.016 --> 01:10:36.656 I mean, they're just so much more portable than our previous setup. 01:10:37.156 --> 01:10:38.696 Everything we need fits in one backpack. 01:10:38.876 --> 01:10:41.556 I think we use them on the van rescue too, Chris. Didn't we use them in the van? 01:10:41.676 --> 01:10:47.516 Oh, we did. We did. This is an example of how our funds can be allocated to 01:10:47.516 --> 01:10:50.256 make the show better, make the trips possible and the gear we use. 01:10:50.716 --> 01:10:55.676 And we try to do it very wisely. We've been, you know, the show turned 12 and 01:10:55.676 --> 01:10:59.896 we want to be here for another 12 years. So we try to be very careful about how we do this. 01:11:00.036 --> 01:11:05.016 And your direct support, either via a boost or from a membership at linuxonplug.com 01:11:05.016 --> 01:11:08.276 slash membership makes all the difference. And thank you for your support. 01:11:11.316 --> 01:11:14.296 Well, while we were on the road, the boost machine was still pumping. 01:11:14.296 --> 01:11:20.156 And a lot of you figured we probably needed to get home with some boosts, so we've got a baller. 01:11:29.096 --> 01:11:35.596 Black Host is our baller this week with 399,998 sets. 01:11:41.956 --> 01:11:45.836 All right. Thank you very much. I appreciate that, Black Host. 01:11:45.936 --> 01:11:50.396 They write, sending you some digital gas and wishing you a safe trip back home. 01:11:50.556 --> 01:11:54.596 Thank you for the amazing coverage on Texas Linux Fest. P.S. Drew's note's failing. 01:11:55.296 --> 01:11:59.736 Hopefully this one gets accepted. Ah, we'll look into that. We'll definitely look into that. 01:11:59.896 --> 01:12:03.196 And thank you for the digital gas. It worked just as expected. 01:12:03.396 --> 01:12:07.296 Thank you. We made it. We are back. Thank you, Black Host. I really appreciate that. 01:12:08.556 --> 01:12:11.176 Outdoor Geek comes in with 100,000 cents. 01:12:15.839 --> 01:12:17.619 Not bad. Thank you, Outdoor Geek. 01:12:18.339 --> 01:12:22.579 Late Texas Linux fast boost. I wasn't able to get Breeze to send a fountain, 01:12:22.579 --> 01:12:24.659 so I ended up using River instead. 01:12:24.939 --> 01:12:26.519 I was messing with Breeze, and eventually 01:12:26.519 --> 01:12:29.839 it told me I needed to enter an on-chain address to get my sats. 01:12:30.059 --> 01:12:33.859 I think my Breeze wallet had gone dormant because I didn't open the app for months. 01:12:34.139 --> 01:12:37.059 And yeah, I think that's pretty much the behavior they do. So you don't lose 01:12:37.059 --> 01:12:40.679 your sats, but you do kind of have to go through a recovery process after your channels get closed. 01:12:40.799 --> 01:12:44.259 I see. They close the channels. Yeah. River is great. I really like River. 01:12:44.259 --> 01:12:47.319 I think we have a jupiterbroadcasting.com slash river affiliate URL. 01:12:47.459 --> 01:12:49.959 By the way, I think it's one of the best ways to stack sats. 01:12:50.099 --> 01:12:52.319 In the U.S., it's all they do, and they have a great infrastructure. 01:12:52.559 --> 01:12:55.159 And that is a great boost. Thank you, Outdoor Geek. Thanks for going through 01:12:55.159 --> 01:12:57.919 and trying it and then sending in your report. Appreciate that. 01:12:58.259 --> 01:13:03.779 Well, we've got two boosts here from Daja for a total of 86,247 sats. 01:13:04.339 --> 01:13:04.699 Hey. 01:13:09.659 --> 01:13:13.259 Latex sats to help with the return gas. this 01:13:13.259 --> 01:13:17.379 is also a zip code boost if you guys see this in time you're more than welcome 01:13:17.379 --> 01:13:22.059 to take a pit stop at our office just off of the interstate i'll be there pretty 01:13:22.059 --> 01:13:29.039 much all day and we've got free soda so he sent in a geohash 9x23j and a little 01:13:29.039 --> 01:13:31.239 matrix connection so thank you oh my. 01:13:31.239 --> 01:13:39.279 Gosh thankfully i have my um yeah my well-tested map from our trip which we 01:13:39.279 --> 01:13:44.159 brought along of course and this would be a postal code in davis county utah oh. 01:13:44.159 --> 01:13:47.159 Okay well brent never know. 01:13:47.159 --> 01:13:50.839 You'll be on your way back next trip we're keeping our boost dashboard open that. 01:13:50.839 --> 01:13:56.319 Is the way to go we should have thought of that i will note that that is an error we will correct. 01:13:56.319 --> 01:13:57.479 So thank you daja yeah. 01:13:57.479 --> 01:13:58.999 And thank you for the boost daja. 01:13:58.999 --> 01:14:02.879 Now the second boost here is actually a row of ducks with a little message, 01:14:05.180 --> 01:14:08.640 Anyway, I forgot to mention that I was curious if you guys have ever messed 01:14:08.640 --> 01:14:12.020 around with getting MeshTastic hooked into Home Assistant. 01:14:12.300 --> 01:14:16.300 I've been toying around with getting sensor data passed over MQTT for a mesh 01:14:16.300 --> 01:14:21.840 of buildings with no internet to one that does, that will bridge to the outside world. 01:14:22.040 --> 01:14:26.740 Super random and probably won't work as nice as I'm hoping, but initial tests seem promising. 01:14:27.480 --> 01:14:31.940 All right. Keep us posted, I suppose. I've always been curious. 01:14:32.620 --> 01:14:37.820 I've not looked at connecting MeshTastic to HA, but very, very interested in doing so. 01:14:38.140 --> 01:14:41.220 I'd say top tier interested, if that's such a thing. You know what I mean? 01:14:42.560 --> 01:14:45.480 Wes and I were literally talking about it on the drive. We had a lot of time 01:14:45.480 --> 01:14:49.240 to talk about things, but that was one of the things we talked about on the drive. 01:14:49.940 --> 01:14:53.440 GooseGuy comes in with 44,444 sats. Woo! 01:14:55.040 --> 01:14:59.780 That's a big old duck. Here's a late boost for your travels to and from Texas LinuxFest. 01:14:59.880 --> 01:15:03.180 The Texas tracker is awesome. I'm glad you got to check on my favorite barbecue 01:15:03.180 --> 01:15:04.980 spot in Austin. Enjoy the sads. 01:15:05.200 --> 01:15:06.020 Hey, we're glad too. 01:15:06.200 --> 01:15:09.880 We are very glad we did. And thank you. We appreciate it. 01:15:09.980 --> 01:15:13.680 You know, the trip, as far as all the accounting, I'm still, 01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:14.940 of course, going through everything. 01:15:15.140 --> 01:15:17.620 And we'll have to figure all that out because also PayPal is still holding some 01:15:17.620 --> 01:15:20.000 of the funds. So very much appreciate that, Goose Guy. 01:15:20.420 --> 01:15:24.020 Also note that the Texas Tracker will still be up because I'm not home yet. 01:15:24.020 --> 01:15:29.200 So if you want to follow the crazy journey that a Brent takes on his way home, please do. 01:15:29.320 --> 01:15:32.600 Probably be for the next, I don't know, At least a week. I have no idea, actually. 01:15:33.200 --> 01:15:35.080 Where even is home for you at this point? 01:15:35.360 --> 01:15:36.100 Yeah, who knows. 01:15:36.340 --> 01:15:43.320 Not the one who's in with 20,000 sats. Sorry, I forgot to send this to help with costs for Texas. 01:15:43.500 --> 01:15:45.960 Hey, no need to apologize. We just appreciate it. 01:15:46.580 --> 01:15:50.460 Still struggling to work out how to properly set up Nix OS? Need to read more? 01:15:50.860 --> 01:15:54.100 Any tips would help. Well, one thing, I mean, maybe depend on, 01:15:54.240 --> 01:15:55.840 you know, are you struggling with the initial install? 01:15:55.960 --> 01:15:57.920 Are you struggling just to, like, really get a config you like? 01:15:57.960 --> 01:16:00.240 It might depend a bit on exactly where you are in the journey. 01:16:00.240 --> 01:16:04.680 But if you would like some inspiration, maybe check out episode 634. 01:16:05.300 --> 01:16:09.540 There should be a bunch of links to various user and audience member configs. 01:16:09.940 --> 01:16:11.420 There's a lot to be inspired by there. 01:16:11.560 --> 01:16:15.200 And if you dig around on the downloads page for NixOS, there is a graphical 01:16:15.200 --> 01:16:18.280 installer you can grab and they will set you up with a base config. 01:16:18.520 --> 01:16:19.640 Always a good place to start from. 01:16:19.780 --> 01:16:21.000 Yeah, maybe even in a VM. 01:16:21.280 --> 01:16:23.620 Yeah, you're not going to go wrong there, I don't think. Good question. 01:16:23.820 --> 01:16:26.140 And do keep us posted. And if you have any specific questions, 01:16:26.460 --> 01:16:28.960 please do feel free. Send those in to us. 01:16:28.960 --> 01:16:34.300 Well, Kiwi Bitcoin Guide boosted in four, five, six, seven sats. 01:16:36.987 --> 01:16:39.507 Well, I've been listening and following live from New Zealand. 01:16:39.727 --> 01:16:40.887 May the force be with you. 01:16:41.847 --> 01:16:46.947 Ah, thank you, Kiwi. Thanks for the New Zealand check-in. That is so cool. Love that. 01:16:47.587 --> 01:16:50.747 Jordan Bravo is in with a row of ducks, 2,222 sats. 01:16:51.907 --> 01:16:55.727 Plus one to do another episode with the RateMyConfig. All right, that's two votes. 01:16:55.987 --> 01:16:57.127 Mm, votes are climbing. 01:16:57.407 --> 01:17:01.007 I don't know if that was a super well-received episode, the config confessions. 01:17:01.487 --> 01:17:03.727 Would like more feedback on 01:17:03.727 --> 01:17:05.987 that because we enjoyed it and we have a couple of configs in the kitty. 01:17:06.987 --> 01:17:09.067 It's a fun thing to do. So let us know. And thank you, Jordan. 01:17:09.227 --> 01:17:11.547 We will register your plus one on this matter. 01:17:12.747 --> 01:17:19.967 Byte Bitten comes in with 2,000 sets. I like Android to be called Google's Android 01:17:19.967 --> 01:17:23.807 and the AOSP to be Google's Android source project. 01:17:23.847 --> 01:17:24.087 Oh! 01:17:24.327 --> 01:17:29.667 Gasp. As it doesn't feel open when everything needs to be registered and it makes devs gasp for air. 01:17:30.067 --> 01:17:30.467 Oof. 01:17:30.747 --> 01:17:34.747 That's, that's, uh... That's good. 01:17:37.907 --> 01:17:40.907 Fire i'm gonna i'm gonna try to remember that that's a good one bite thank you. 01:17:41.687 --> 01:17:44.567 Ed broughton boosted in 5 000 sets, 01:17:47.087 --> 01:17:50.587 i really enjoyed the road trip stories and i'm looking forward to next week's 01:17:50.587 --> 01:17:54.827 episode that's this one where i hope to hear about the return trip thanks for 01:17:54.827 --> 01:18:01.087 the coverage of the texas linux fest and for the effort the team puts into this show well. 01:18:01.087 --> 01:18:03.507 Thank you ed thank you for the boost really appreciate that. 01:18:04.007 --> 01:18:06.607 Hybrid Sarcasms back with 10,000 sats. 01:18:13.067 --> 01:18:18.387 Okay, so Hybrid's got an app pick for us. It's NCSpot. He's got a Flathub linked 01:18:18.387 --> 01:18:19.607 here. It's a Spotify Tui. 01:18:19.767 --> 01:18:24.127 It has a nice N-Curses interface, and as one who likes to avoid electron apps, 01:18:24.287 --> 01:18:25.627 if I can find that, it helps. 01:18:25.947 --> 01:18:33.127 You know a Tui via Flathub, or I mean, I'm sorry, Flatpak, that's different, and kind Kind of neat. 01:18:33.427 --> 01:18:35.847 Thank you, Mr. Sarcasm. This is great. 01:18:36.027 --> 01:18:41.227 That's a bonus pick right there. Thank you, Hybrid. Appreciate that. It's NC Spot. 01:18:41.767 --> 01:18:46.267 I'm sure you can find it in all kinds of places. It's a cross-platform and cursive Spotify client. 01:18:47.327 --> 01:18:48.887 I mean, if you're going to use Spotify. 01:18:49.127 --> 01:18:50.067 That's the way to do it. 01:18:50.067 --> 01:18:52.727 That's probably the way to do it. Although friends don't necessarily let friends 01:18:52.727 --> 01:18:56.587 use Spotify. There is that. But if you're going to, that's probably the way to do it. 01:18:57.387 --> 01:19:01.127 Thank you, Hybrid. And please, send more boost picks. Appreciate that. 01:19:01.127 --> 01:19:05.427 Anonymous boosts in with 5,555 sands. 01:19:07.183 --> 01:19:10.423 First time Booster here, finally took the dive and set up Albie Hub. 01:19:10.523 --> 01:19:11.643 Hey, really? 01:19:12.223 --> 01:19:12.603 Nice. 01:19:12.723 --> 01:19:16.363 Also, it was fantastic meeting y'all at Texas Linux Fest. 01:19:16.543 --> 01:19:18.243 Right on. Nicely done. 01:19:18.743 --> 01:19:23.383 I'd also like to give a special shout out to a standout member of the community, TechDev. 01:19:23.763 --> 01:19:26.963 While at the conference, I noticed how deliberately he reached out to everyone, 01:19:27.143 --> 01:19:29.783 especially those who seemed alone or were looking for a group to join. 01:19:30.423 --> 01:19:33.883 TechDev, your inclusive spirit is truly rare and deeply appreciated. 01:19:34.183 --> 01:19:35.163 I will plus one that one. 01:19:35.163 --> 01:19:36.623 I will plus two that one. 01:19:37.283 --> 01:19:41.043 Yeah. TechDev, I think, made it a little extra special, and I was really glad 01:19:41.043 --> 01:19:42.363 that he could make it to the event. 01:19:43.023 --> 01:19:46.543 And I noticed the same. I noticed the same. So I'm glad he got a shout out here 01:19:46.543 --> 01:19:49.403 in this boost. And congratulations on getting your own AlbiHub going. 01:19:49.643 --> 01:19:51.423 Yeah, thank you for taking the deep dev to do it. 01:19:51.463 --> 01:19:53.583 How fun is it, right? I mean, it's a little challenging, right? 01:19:53.683 --> 01:19:54.743 But it's such an unlock, too. 01:19:55.343 --> 01:20:00.803 Well, Autobrain boosted in 3,500 sets. Thanks for the coverage of the Linux 01:20:00.803 --> 01:20:03.423 Fest. It was fun watching you guys crisscross the content. 01:20:04.583 --> 01:20:06.043 Well, thanks for following along. 01:20:06.043 --> 01:20:10.623 Yeah, we do appreciate that. It was fun for us. We used the crap out of that 01:20:10.623 --> 01:20:12.263 tracker. Let me tell you, we really did. 01:20:13.103 --> 01:20:17.263 Begus Mascus comes in, probably, probably not right, with a Spaceballs boost. 01:20:17.443 --> 01:20:18.823 One, two, three, four, five sats. 01:20:23.483 --> 01:20:25.943 Hey, it's Brian from Boise. We were just talking about Brian. 01:20:26.463 --> 01:20:27.843 This is my first real boost. 01:20:27.983 --> 01:20:30.843 I was the guy who rolled up at the gas station, slid to your bit chat, 01:20:30.983 --> 01:20:33.403 and then crept up on your car in the dark while it was pouring rain. 01:20:33.703 --> 01:20:36.083 Thanks for taking a few minutes to chat. I was a bit nervous, 01:20:36.243 --> 01:20:37.623 probably because of the whole stalker vibe thing. 01:20:37.863 --> 01:20:40.103 But it's not every day you get to meet one of your heroes. Oh, 01:20:40.143 --> 01:20:42.563 Wes. Oh, Wes is pretty great, I will say. 01:20:42.623 --> 01:20:43.303 No, it's all Brent. 01:20:43.403 --> 01:20:46.083 Keep up the amazing content. I'll be boosting it regularly. Awesome! 01:20:46.243 --> 01:20:48.983 And hopefully my own new Albie build soon. Wow. 01:20:49.623 --> 01:20:52.663 Thank you for... I was hoping we would hear from you, Brian. 01:20:53.003 --> 01:20:55.583 Yes, it was great to get to meet you. Thank you for putting in the effort, 01:20:55.643 --> 01:20:56.703 especially in the pouring rain. 01:20:56.903 --> 01:20:59.783 It was a hell of a storm. We did not expect anyone to come out. 01:21:00.283 --> 01:21:03.843 And we were stopped there at that gas station for a minute. So we must have 01:21:03.843 --> 01:21:07.343 wondered what was going on, because we were like looking at the storm routing, trying to figure out. 01:21:07.423 --> 01:21:09.703 Debating how far could we make it in this? Where do we sleep? 01:21:09.803 --> 01:21:13.543 The traction was low. I mean, there was just so much standing water. 01:21:13.583 --> 01:21:15.003 So we didn't want to drive in that all night. 01:21:15.503 --> 01:21:19.103 But we were totally happy that Brian stopped by and we had like, 01:21:19.163 --> 01:21:21.903 you know, the quick, hey, how you doing moment and thanks for saying hi kind of thing. 01:21:22.543 --> 01:21:25.263 So we do hope to hear from you more big and keep on boosting in. 01:21:26.283 --> 01:21:30.643 Well, Brad at Team Toronto, boosts in with 7,500 sats. 01:21:32.639 --> 01:21:35.659 Plus one for more Nix confessions. Okay, that's three. 01:21:35.799 --> 01:21:36.219 All right. 01:21:36.619 --> 01:21:41.259 We have a smart audience. Yeah, amen to that. And it's great to hear and see 01:21:41.259 --> 01:21:42.999 via Git what everyone is doing. 01:21:43.219 --> 01:21:47.419 Would love to see more around Nix as well. Or even other topics like home assistant, 01:21:47.559 --> 01:21:48.679 utilities, scripts, etc. 01:21:49.259 --> 01:21:51.239 Leverage the community for more content. 01:21:51.439 --> 01:21:56.039 Love it. I would definitely love to see some more community contributions around 01:21:56.039 --> 01:21:56.999 their home assistant setups. 01:21:57.379 --> 01:21:59.119 I'm sure there's some stellar stuff. 01:21:59.299 --> 01:22:02.459 I am in a bad way with my home assistant. Right before I left for the trip, 01:22:02.699 --> 01:22:05.179 my Zigbee radio just seems to have gone offline. 01:22:05.299 --> 01:22:05.719 Oh, no. 01:22:06.059 --> 01:22:09.259 And, yeah. And so Home Assistant can't talk to my Zigbee radio. 01:22:09.579 --> 01:22:12.479 None of my Zigbee devices are working. And it's just totally busted. 01:22:13.099 --> 01:22:17.799 And it was, like, the day I left. And I haven't had a chance to look at it because, 01:22:17.939 --> 01:22:20.279 well, we got right back to the studio and did the show. So I haven't even really 01:22:20.279 --> 01:22:21.559 dug in yet and looked at the logs. 01:22:21.819 --> 01:22:24.939 But, man, is it a sucky thing. Because that kind of thing never happens to me 01:22:24.939 --> 01:22:26.219 on this. It's been so solid. 01:22:26.679 --> 01:22:30.059 And it's the built-in Home Assistant yellow radio, too. Oh. 01:22:31.339 --> 01:22:35.379 If anybody has any tips please let me know i am not looking forward to troubleshooting 01:22:35.379 --> 01:22:38.899 that one and thank you brad i will take those notes those are good ones appreciate that. 01:22:38.899 --> 01:22:45.959 Our last boost here is from magnolia mayhem 3 210 sats yeah. 01:22:45.959 --> 01:22:50.339 I think for context uh this is a live boost from uh our live stream earlier 01:22:50.339 --> 01:22:52.759 in the day during our um interview with john nice. 01:22:52.759 --> 01:22:57.939 In our interview there's a quote here accused of making ubuntu more like nix 01:22:57.939 --> 01:23:02.159 uh well magnolia mayhem says I fail to see the problem here. 01:23:03.899 --> 01:23:07.019 There could be some nice things to learn, right? You got to keep Ubuntu Ubuntu. 01:23:07.139 --> 01:23:08.839 I do agree there. People depend on that. 01:23:09.059 --> 01:23:11.959 But there's a lot to learn from all the great projects out there. 01:23:12.319 --> 01:23:15.459 I had so many more questions for John. I mean, so many more questions. 01:23:15.459 --> 01:23:15.599 Oh, yeah, same. 01:23:16.099 --> 01:23:19.379 So we'll try to get them back on soon. Thank you, everybody who supported the 01:23:19.379 --> 01:23:20.899 show with a boost or a membership. 01:23:21.139 --> 01:23:24.779 And thank you, everybody who also streamed Sats as you listen. 24 of you did that. 01:23:24.859 --> 01:23:29.419 And collectively, you Sat streamers stacked 39,018 Sats for the show. 01:23:29.419 --> 01:23:34.039 When you combine that with our boosters, we stacked a really very, 01:23:34.199 --> 01:23:40.539 very, very great 745,839 sats. 01:23:41.579 --> 01:23:46.679 And we are putting that towards the Texas Linux Fest trip. We did have a little 01:23:46.679 --> 01:23:47.919 extra travel going to Denver. 01:23:48.279 --> 01:23:52.739 And that's from almost 40 unique people out there. Isn't that crazy? 01:23:52.859 --> 01:23:55.759 That's great. Thank you, everybody. If you'd like to boost the show, 01:23:55.899 --> 01:23:59.939 Fountain.fm makes it real easy. That's a podcasting 2.0 client that just hosts all that. 01:24:00.299 --> 01:24:03.739 But you could keep your client, set up an Albi Hub, and use the podcast index 01:24:03.739 --> 01:24:06.279 or whatever you like. There's a lot of options there. 01:24:06.719 --> 01:24:09.579 Check it out at podcastapps.com. Fountain has been getting really, 01:24:09.719 --> 01:24:12.959 really good, too. They've been making some fantastic, fantastic improvements. 01:24:13.299 --> 01:24:17.199 And thank you to our members, linuxunplugged.com slash membership for putting 01:24:17.199 --> 01:24:20.159 that support on autopilot. We very much appreciate it. 01:24:22.004 --> 01:24:25.384 Now, our pick this week, this is the only the kind of thing that people that 01:24:25.384 --> 01:24:28.944 are absolutely exhausted and have been driving across the country would come up with. 01:24:29.224 --> 01:24:33.324 This would never make it into the show. Otherwise, I am aghast that we have this in here. 01:24:33.444 --> 01:24:37.704 Yeah. What do you what's your problem? It's the performance optimizer observation platform. 01:24:38.064 --> 01:24:44.364 Yeah. Poop for short. But and I love their tagline. Stop flushing your performance down the drain. 01:24:46.964 --> 01:24:47.944 You see what they did there? 01:24:48.504 --> 01:24:53.444 I think you'll like this, though. We don't have a sound effect yet, but it's 100% zig. 01:24:53.824 --> 01:24:54.204 Really? 01:24:54.404 --> 01:24:54.864 Yeah. Yeah. 01:24:55.104 --> 01:24:55.384 Okay. 01:24:55.744 --> 01:25:01.824 And it uses Linux's built-in perf event open functionality to compare the performance 01:25:01.824 --> 01:25:06.524 of multiple commands with a colorful terminal user interface. 01:25:06.524 --> 01:25:12.344 That's the part I like. So you're just building on some stuff that's existing 01:25:12.344 --> 01:25:16.524 in Linux to give you some really great comparisons in a very readable way. 01:25:16.824 --> 01:25:19.404 The name's silly, but the utility is there. 01:25:19.804 --> 01:25:23.584 Yeah, and folks might be familiar with Hyperfine, which is sort of a more mature 01:25:23.584 --> 01:25:27.904 project in this space, which bills itself as a command line benchmarking tool. 01:25:28.024 --> 01:25:30.144 So that's kind of where this thing is aimed, is you can, you know, 01:25:30.164 --> 01:25:33.684 maybe you've got different versions of something with different tweaks or comparing 01:25:33.684 --> 01:25:35.664 programs, doing the same kind of work. 01:25:36.244 --> 01:25:38.364 But how much Zig is that one written in? 01:25:38.624 --> 01:25:42.144 Well, that one's written in a combination of Rust and Python. 01:25:42.504 --> 01:25:42.964 You see? 01:25:43.504 --> 01:25:44.764 Yeah, 0% Zig. 01:25:44.804 --> 01:25:47.084 I asked Zig, that's 0% Zig. Yeah, right. This is 100% Zig. 01:25:47.084 --> 01:25:49.184 100% Zig native pick this week. 01:25:49.184 --> 01:25:53.764 You're welcome everybody and it is mit licensed so have at it as you will like 01:25:53.764 --> 01:25:58.384 or whatnot and we will have poop linked in the show notes like okay there you 01:25:58.384 --> 01:26:01.944 go see you could tell we're a little we're a little uh tipsy from the road we 01:26:01.944 --> 01:26:05.684 wouldn't have put that in there otherwise it was probably brent's idea gonna 01:26:05.684 --> 01:26:08.664 just go ahead and blame him on that one you know what i mean just go ahead and play, 01:26:12.064 --> 01:26:15.724 all right we will be live back at our regular time of course we'd love it if 01:26:15.724 --> 01:26:20.884 you join us over jblive.tv on a Sunday at 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 p.m. 01:26:21.264 --> 01:26:26.084 Eastern. Links to what we talked about are at linuxunplugged.com slash 636. 01:26:26.504 --> 01:26:29.784 And there's some good ones this week for Cosmic and, of course, the new Ubuntu release. 01:26:30.224 --> 01:26:35.724 Wes, if they are in a super power user podcasting app, we have some great, 01:26:35.924 --> 01:26:37.184 I don't know, features for them? 01:26:37.504 --> 01:26:41.244 Oh, yeah, we do. Well, we have cloud chapters so they can jump right to the 01:26:41.244 --> 01:26:43.844 content they like or listen to the show in whatever order. 01:26:43.964 --> 01:26:44.604 What else do we have? 01:26:44.604 --> 01:26:47.184 Well, if you want to take an even deeper dive into the show, 01:26:47.344 --> 01:26:48.604 check out our transcripts. 01:26:49.304 --> 01:26:50.044 We got transcripts now. 01:26:50.184 --> 01:26:53.484 Yeah, plenty of apps. And some of them even show our speaker diarization so 01:26:53.484 --> 01:26:55.044 you can tell which of us said the dumb thing. 01:26:55.164 --> 01:26:59.144 I love it. All right. We'll have a big show for you. So join us right back here next week.