WEBVTT 00:00:11.488 --> 00:00:16.213 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:16.213 --> 00:00:17.136 My name is Wes. 00:00:17.351 --> 00:00:18.353 And my name is Brent. 00:00:18.353 --> 00:00:23.043 Hello, gentlemen. Coming up on the show this week, Greg KH has been busy. 00:00:23.043 --> 00:00:25.124 Seven Linux kernels landed on Saturday. 00:00:25.693 --> 00:00:30.763 Almost all of them were in LTS. We'll break down what changed and what releases 00:00:30.763 --> 00:00:32.479 just might fit your home lab best. 00:00:32.879 --> 00:00:40.333 And then why generating truly random numbers is so dang hard and how it's gone so bad in the past. 00:00:40.333 --> 00:00:42.574 We'll talk about that and we'll round it out with some boosts, 00:00:42.910 --> 00:00:45.893 some picks, and a lot more. So before we get there, let's say time appropriate 00:00:45.893 --> 00:00:48.993 greetings to our virtual lug. Hello, Mumble Room. 00:00:50.653 --> 00:00:51.463 Hello, guys. 00:00:51.463 --> 00:00:52.355 Hello, Brent. 00:00:52.506 --> 00:00:55.283 And hello up there in the quiet listening and everybody watching live over at 00:00:55.283 --> 00:00:58.189 jblav.tv, making it a Tuesday on a Sunday. 00:00:59.012 --> 00:01:02.518 And good morning to our friends at Defined Networking. 00:01:02.855 --> 00:01:07.743 Check out Defined.net slash unplugged and sign up for Managed Nebula 100 hosts 00:01:07.743 --> 00:01:09.380 for free, no credit card required. 00:01:09.780 --> 00:01:15.765 Nebula is one of my favorite technologies, and Manage Nebula makes it so straightforward, 00:01:16.166 --> 00:01:18.197 and now they give you a lighthouse to get going real quick. 00:01:18.998 --> 00:01:25.173 Picture a Mesh VPN completely and totally under your control with a design that 00:01:25.173 --> 00:01:28.524 is intelligent and low resources from the beginning. 00:01:28.908 --> 00:01:32.423 Something designed to connect some of the most important and sensitive data 00:01:32.423 --> 00:01:36.833 around the world is now available to you and, through the magic of cryptography, 00:01:36.833 --> 00:01:38.474 is very straightforward to set up. 00:01:38.817 --> 00:01:41.443 You get strong encryption, direct device-to-vice connections, 00:01:41.443 --> 00:01:45.503 and you can self-host Lighthouse Nodes, giving you complete control over the 00:01:45.503 --> 00:01:48.488 network that you depend on. That's huge. 00:01:49.457 --> 00:01:54.821 So go get started. 100 hosts for free. No credit card required at Defined.net slash unplugged. 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:58.814 Go check it out. We love it. Defined.net slash unplugged. 00:02:01.164 --> 00:02:03.710 You know, we just have a really quick housekeeping this week. 00:02:04.270 --> 00:02:07.890 We wanted to say thank you. We meant to say thank you last week when we were 00:02:07.890 --> 00:02:09.366 remote at Brent's place. 00:02:09.883 --> 00:02:13.870 But it dawned on us afterwards, once again, a big thank you to everybody who 00:02:13.870 --> 00:02:15.287 helped us get those headsets. 00:02:16.048 --> 00:02:17.270 It's almost been, what, two years now? 00:02:17.870 --> 00:02:22.180 Those things have been just solid. I don't think they've never ever caused us 00:02:22.180 --> 00:02:25.545 a technical issue we've had to solve. Everything else has, but never those headsets. 00:02:25.713 --> 00:02:30.154 It's crazy. It's crazy what a reduction in complexity and gear that was for us, too. 00:02:30.972 --> 00:02:35.700 Really? Yeah. I mean, at that point, it's them and a mixer of some kind that 00:02:35.700 --> 00:02:36.650 can handle enough inputs. 00:02:36.650 --> 00:02:36.934 Yeah. 00:02:37.085 --> 00:02:37.770 And then a computer. 00:02:37.770 --> 00:02:41.960 And without them, it's big microphones and stands and separate headphones and 00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:47.300 wires for all of that to work. And it's nuts. It's nuts. So thank you so much. 00:02:47.300 --> 00:02:48.463 We just wanted to take a moment. 00:02:49.210 --> 00:02:53.210 And it's like every time we use them, we're like, oh, so, so freaking grateful, 00:02:53.210 --> 00:02:56.077 the members and the listeners, too. People contributed from all around. 00:02:57.650 --> 00:03:01.420 I want to thank you two boys And the Mumble Room for doing a nice little send 00:03:01.420 --> 00:03:07.680 off Of my beloved studio That was nice That thing has done quite a few episodes 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:12.244 So I want to say thanks for your One last hurrah in there It was really great. 00:03:15.716 --> 00:03:21.305 Seven kernels on a Saturday. Greg KH shipped a bunch of stable kernels in one 00:03:21.305 --> 00:03:23.959 window. I'm hoping he's taking a summer vacation after this. 00:03:24.418 --> 00:03:29.329 Six of them were LTS point releases and some big numbers in here, boys. Check this out. 00:03:29.903 --> 00:03:32.399 6.12.100. 00:03:33.305 --> 00:03:38.065 6.1.180. Get ready for this. It's still kicking. 00:03:38.419 --> 00:03:41.345 Linux 5.10.262. 00:03:42.925 --> 00:03:46.495 Yeah, those are basically point release numbers, right? so those get bumped 00:03:46.495 --> 00:03:50.755 up as Greg releases new ones so you can kind of tell how long he's been doing those. 00:03:50.755 --> 00:03:51.105 Yeah. 00:03:51.105 --> 00:03:53.430 I'm glad he's keeping track because we're not. 00:03:53.987 --> 00:04:00.576 Linus also tagged Linux 7.2 RC5 over the weekend, so he called it quite the massive RC5. 00:04:00.912 --> 00:04:03.925 This really kind of brings it up to a total of seven. So we got these six stable 00:04:03.925 --> 00:04:08.592 point releases, and then the new 7.2, which kills AppleTalk, is reaching RC5. 00:04:09.144 --> 00:04:12.945 And it has quite a bit of changes in it because there's been a lot of AI-assisted 00:04:12.945 --> 00:04:14.827 patching that's been hitting the kernel recently. 00:04:15.779 --> 00:04:21.076 It's a lot. What do you say, Wes? You want to break some of it down for us? 00:04:21.076 --> 00:04:24.526 Yeah, I guess just take it to handle on what kernels we're talking about here. 00:04:24.526 --> 00:04:28.906 Well, sort of before the big push, Greg released 7.1.5. 7.2 is not out, 00:04:28.906 --> 00:04:30.566 right? So we're doing the 7.1 thing. 00:04:30.566 --> 00:04:31.126 Yes, thank you. 00:04:31.466 --> 00:04:36.646 And then, of course, as you said, Linus released 7.2 RC5. We're expecting 7.2 00:04:36.646 --> 00:04:39.586 to come out maybe sometimes around August 16th, somewhere in there. 00:04:41.306 --> 00:04:43.886 Obviously, depending on how many RCs Linus deems necessary. 00:04:46.446 --> 00:04:52.986 And then, so that was July 26, and then on July 30, yeah, six LTS point releases. 00:04:52.986 --> 00:04:55.826 So we got, we'll go from the newest and then kind of get older. 00:04:56.166 --> 00:04:58.486 We got 618.41. 00:04:58.486 --> 00:04:58.946 Wow. 00:04:58.946 --> 00:05:02.246 That's the newest, quote unquote, active LTS, right? 618. 00:05:02.246 --> 00:05:02.406 Okay. 00:05:02.826 --> 00:05:07.206 That has an end of life coming up in December 2028. Then we had, 00:05:07.706 --> 00:05:16.426 let's see here, 612.100, Debian 13 Trixie and RHEL 10 base. That EOL is also December 2028. 00:05:16.426 --> 00:05:19.706 That's, I mean, 2028's not that far away, but pretty good. So these are going 00:05:19.706 --> 00:05:22.105 to, this will be the kernel that ends up in people's RHEL 10. 00:05:22.320 --> 00:05:24.926 So this will be pretty widely used kernel 612-100. 00:05:24.926 --> 00:05:29.076 And it's the first time we start seeing the involvement of the civil infrastructure 00:05:29.076 --> 00:05:36.664 platforms SuperLTS that's going to try and keep this thing alive until December 2035. 00:05:38.406 --> 00:05:39.091 I'm sorry. 00:05:39.973 --> 00:05:40.652 What did you say? 00:05:41.117 --> 00:05:42.069 Yeah, 2035. 00:05:43.294 --> 00:05:45.399 Wow, yeah, yeah. That's incredible. 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:49.079 So basically, it's a Linux Foundation project, the civil infrastructure platform, 00:05:49.459 --> 00:05:51.949 with a bunch of industry folks, right? Like Siemens, Toshiba, 00:05:51.949 --> 00:05:53.199 Hitachi, Mux, so people that. 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:54.719 Build like- I hope Google's in there with Android. 00:05:54.719 --> 00:06:00.069 Right? Long-term embedded industrial systems. And so it kind of exists to extend 00:06:00.069 --> 00:06:02.799 kernel.org, which often does it for like roughly two years. 00:06:03.539 --> 00:06:07.772 But they're trying to offer stuff more like 10 plus, 20, you know? 00:06:08.155 --> 00:06:13.329 So if you want to run 612-100, you can say that you're running a super LTS kernel. 00:06:13.329 --> 00:06:19.589 Yeah, that's right. Okay, we also got 66147. That has an end of life of 2027. 00:06:19.589 --> 00:06:21.359 That's getting pretty close, December as well. 00:06:23.379 --> 00:06:28.949 61180, that's a Debian 12 bookworm base. That AOL is December 2027 as well. 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:29.680 Also coming up. 00:06:30.005 --> 00:06:34.639 And would you believe it? We are still pushing updates to the 5 series kernel. 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:38.115 Yes, we're on 7 now. that's like two giant numbers ago uh, 00:06:38.919 --> 00:06:46.359 so this is 5 15 213 that's the ubuntu 2204 lts base that's coming up soon though 00:06:46.359 --> 00:06:50.349 end of life december 2026 as far as obviously ubuntu does their own work but 00:06:50.349 --> 00:06:52.029 yeah in terms of kernel.org. 00:06:52.029 --> 00:06:53.867 Right right then they're on their own after that. 00:06:54.018 --> 00:07:00.119 And then the last but the least i don't know that's up to you uh 5 10 262 that's 00:07:00.119 --> 00:07:05.549 the debian 11 era kernel.org end of life December 2026 coming right up but this 00:07:05.549 --> 00:07:08.089 one is also under that super long term support 00:07:08.449 --> 00:07:10.493 to January 2031. 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:14.585 When you see that, when you see they get the super long-term support, 00:07:15.473 --> 00:07:18.985 I think the obvious giveaway here is like these have ended up in some sort of, 00:07:19.589 --> 00:07:24.229 widely deployed corporate system, some image that's on a bunch of consumer devices 00:07:24.229 --> 00:07:25.819 or control devices, something like that. 00:07:25.819 --> 00:07:29.369 Yeah, and things shipped that like aren't easy to update or maybe are certified. 00:07:29.369 --> 00:07:32.039 And so you need, if you change the kernel, you got to do a whole new certification. 00:07:32.039 --> 00:07:34.049 You might not be able to do updates in place. 00:07:34.752 --> 00:07:41.539 But a lot of these drop off in 2027. A couple of drop off in December of this year. 00:07:41.539 --> 00:07:46.789 Two of them drop off. So like Greg's list, I don't know if he's responsible 00:07:46.789 --> 00:07:50.569 for the super long term, but like Greg's list does shorten a little bit in a year or two. 00:07:50.569 --> 00:07:53.389 And that's part of sort of the two-year thing, right? It's like the kernel.org 00:07:53.389 --> 00:07:57.879 team has to maintain stable kernels that like, you know, actual people pull from. 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:00.089 And they work on whatever the latest kernel is all the time. 00:08:00.089 --> 00:08:02.679 It's just, you know, you have to handle who's going to actually support this, 00:08:02.679 --> 00:08:07.199 which is where it is nice to see the companies involved in wanting to run ancient 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:10.457 kernels stepping up to sort of take on some of that ownership. 00:08:10.771 --> 00:08:14.349 So, Brent, I think last time we were looking at some of the patch sets that 00:08:14.349 --> 00:08:18.569 were hitting 7.2, there was a lot of stuff in video, a lot of video drivers. 00:08:18.569 --> 00:08:23.164 What are we seeing that got your attention in 7.2 RC5? The new freshness. 00:08:23.890 --> 00:08:28.598 There is new freshness. There's AMD GPU compute stuff in there. 00:08:28.801 --> 00:08:35.479 that's a 42x regressions though on some of the 7.0 point releases so stable 00:08:35.479 --> 00:08:42.949 diffusion xl via comfy ui went from a nine second to uh 388 seconds. 00:08:42.949 --> 00:08:44.589 That's a pretty significant regression. 00:08:45.109 --> 00:08:45.569 Okay so. 00:08:46.049 --> 00:08:49.477 All right so maybe 7.2 don't don't use it on amg compute systems just yet. 00:08:49.982 --> 00:08:54.699 I mean some of those are fixed upstream in 7.0.13 but not every single distro 00:08:54.699 --> 00:08:59.682 has picked them up yet so So take your chances or do some research, I would say. 00:09:00.361 --> 00:09:04.789 I also saw a fair amount of pent-up networking work. Wes had a stat here that 00:09:04.789 --> 00:09:08.030 over a third of the patches that landed were networking alone. 00:09:08.883 --> 00:09:12.109 And again, I think, Brent, that's more of like the AI-assisted code stuff only 00:09:12.109 --> 00:09:15.094 sitting in the networking branch. It just, to me, seems like... 00:09:16.006 --> 00:09:19.030 We're going to need, like, a spring cleaning next year or something. 00:09:20.214 --> 00:09:22.481 How much are you hoping to clear out? As much as we cleared out? 00:09:22.481 --> 00:09:25.791 Well, if we're willing to get rid of AppleTalk, then where is the line, boys? 00:09:26.591 --> 00:09:29.711 I think you're right. We're probably going to see more of that as basically 00:09:29.711 --> 00:09:32.291 every subsystem in the kernel gets more and more pressure. 00:09:32.731 --> 00:09:37.600 The stuff that is no longer load-bearing is just the desire to cut it is going to increase. 00:09:38.065 --> 00:09:43.300 But to your point about, like, that massive 42x regression compared to Linux 7.0, 00:09:44.553 --> 00:09:48.731 So that stuff stings, but most people that are using that stuff in a production 00:09:48.731 --> 00:09:51.901 workload where they're using the actual AMD compute infrastructure, 00:09:51.901 --> 00:09:53.991 I doubt they're going to install 7.2. 00:09:53.991 --> 00:09:58.731 And AMD does seem to be actively contributing upstream, so I imagine they're 00:09:58.731 --> 00:09:59.611 going to be working on that. 00:09:59.611 --> 00:10:05.921 I think part of the story here is kind of like what and why do you choose a particular kernel? 00:10:05.921 --> 00:10:08.691 How do you go about doing that, right? So it's like some of these things are, 00:10:08.691 --> 00:10:12.181 yeah, you hit it if you are upgrading, but do you need to upgrade for hardware 00:10:12.181 --> 00:10:15.131 enablement? Do you need some sort of new feature? Are you really looking for 00:10:15.131 --> 00:10:16.461 a potential performance improvement? 00:10:16.461 --> 00:10:22.191 There's another wrinkle to it as well, as sometimes the drivers or system support 00:10:22.191 --> 00:10:24.581 do get backported to these older releases. 00:10:24.581 --> 00:10:29.441 So you might see that they started contributing drivers at the 7.0 series, 00:10:29.441 --> 00:10:31.696 but sometimes, like the NVIDIA stuff... 00:10:32.583 --> 00:10:37.420 IOMMU stuff, that stuff gets backported. And so the older kernels can sometimes 00:10:37.420 --> 00:10:40.651 end up with that. So I think you could think about it in tiers here, right? 00:10:41.556 --> 00:10:45.950 If you're looking through an LTS lens and you're just looking at long-term stable 00:10:45.950 --> 00:10:49.030 kernels, you want to set up a box and forget about it for as long as possible. 00:10:49.030 --> 00:10:51.090 I mean, you still need to update, but you won't have to redo your kernel. 00:10:51.870 --> 00:10:54.763 Then that's, I think, right off the bat, that's Linux 6.18. 00:10:55.750 --> 00:10:59.410 It is the current, quote-unquote, bleeding-edge LTS. It has some of the newer 00:10:59.410 --> 00:11:01.438 AMD, NVIDIA stuff backported. 00:11:02.330 --> 00:11:06.150 And it will last until 2028. That gets you a pretty long runway. 00:11:06.150 --> 00:11:09.980 Yeah, I suppose that comes down to like what are you supporting and how many 00:11:09.980 --> 00:11:12.710 updates are you willing to do? How long can you go without changing kernels? 00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:19.760 Yeah. Or like you said, is it just doing stupid file serving and maybe DNS? 00:11:19.760 --> 00:11:24.322 And it's like something you run on a Raspberry Pi or it's a low-end networking box. 00:11:24.769 --> 00:11:31.961 Then you don't need 6.18. Something like 6.12 will be around until possibly 2035. 00:11:32.118 --> 00:11:35.770 So talk about a box for networking infrastructure you could just set and forget 00:11:35.770 --> 00:11:38.091 and just do quarterly updates on. 00:11:38.460 --> 00:11:41.420 And you're not going to have to worry about a new kernel. So 6.12 could potentially 00:11:41.420 --> 00:11:44.340 be around until 2035. That's the one for those machines. 00:11:44.340 --> 00:11:47.390 It's funny it feels old, right? 6.12 kind of sounds a little old. 00:11:47.390 --> 00:11:51.050 But, I mean, it was a kernel we really talked about a lot on the show. 00:11:51.050 --> 00:11:53.530 It was a big one. Preempt RT stuff. 00:11:54.070 --> 00:11:56.860 I mean, there's just a bunch of stuff. And I think it was pretty widely deployed, 00:11:56.860 --> 00:11:59.070 which is why it's getting that long-term support. 00:11:59.070 --> 00:12:03.670 Right. Preempt RT. Right. Also, the note in here that it's considered one of 00:12:03.670 --> 00:12:06.098 the most battle-tested kernels of all of them. 00:12:06.876 --> 00:12:10.560 And that's their opinion. So, okay. Let's go with that. So, 6.12 seems like 00:12:10.560 --> 00:12:14.480 a real winner if you don't need super modern hardware and you're cool with the 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:15.392 setup and forget it kernel. 00:12:15.763 --> 00:12:18.710 Then after that, like, I think it sort of just drops off and it's, 00:12:18.710 --> 00:12:21.270 okay, well, you're just going to go with whatever distro you want. 00:12:21.270 --> 00:12:23.881 This is really if you're even making an active decision, right? 00:12:23.970 --> 00:12:26.330 Right, because Debian's going to manage their kernel release. 00:12:26.330 --> 00:12:29.910 Ubuntu will manage theirs. There's going to be stuff that they're just going 00:12:29.910 --> 00:12:33.150 to take care of for you, and you may end up on a different kernel at some point 00:12:33.150 --> 00:12:34.078 when you just upgrade the distro. 00:12:34.937 --> 00:12:37.577 But if you are actively making a choice, and I'd like to know how many of you 00:12:37.577 --> 00:12:42.427 really are actively making a choice, which kernel do you actually pick? 00:12:42.427 --> 00:12:45.437 Like, I'd like to know how many of you are actually doing that. I mean, we do. 00:12:45.437 --> 00:12:47.807 Yeah, we definitely do. I mean, we're running this end kernel. 00:12:48.467 --> 00:12:51.567 And then back in the day when this was a KDE Neon box here in the studio, 00:12:52.007 --> 00:12:54.567 you were doing the mainline tool to just kind of get the freshest kernels. 00:12:54.567 --> 00:12:58.177 And on FakeNez, we're doing the LTS kernel. We're doing one of the LTS kernels 00:12:58.177 --> 00:13:03.316 just because we hardly ever update that box and we don't want it to break when we do ZFS updates. 00:13:03.775 --> 00:13:07.693 And so we did go to the LTS gear for the rolling arch-based server. 00:13:08.338 --> 00:13:11.443 And so I wonder how many people out there are, A, actively choosing their kernel. 00:13:12.273 --> 00:13:15.227 I bet it's a minority. And I wonder, B, which kernels they're choosing. 00:13:15.227 --> 00:13:17.637 So boostin, boost.jupiterbroadcasting.com and let us know. 00:13:17.637 --> 00:13:21.117 Yeah, I like that. It turns out you can have a rolling distro with a stable 00:13:21.117 --> 00:13:22.987 kernel or a stable distro with a rolling kernel. 00:13:22.987 --> 00:13:28.227 I like it. I mean, on our desktop boxes, we just go full rolling with everything. 00:13:28.227 --> 00:13:33.407 But on the server, it's not that crazy, I think, to have an LTS kernel and a 00:13:33.407 --> 00:13:36.127 rolling user land. I mean, we've been proving it for how many years on that 00:13:36.127 --> 00:13:39.144 fake NAS box, abusing it, doing rando updates. 00:13:40.148 --> 00:13:42.687 Isn't it just lots of luck, though? I don't know. 00:13:42.687 --> 00:13:45.967 I think the cottonwood is structural. It helps at this point. 00:13:45.967 --> 00:13:50.881 It's really about, well, for us, right, it was down to we wanted rock solid ZFS support. 00:13:51.955 --> 00:13:56.287 And sometimes ZFS doesn't keep up with the current kernel. And if you load the 00:13:56.287 --> 00:13:59.497 current kernel, you can sometimes not have a loadable ZFS. And so for us, 00:13:59.497 --> 00:14:04.418 it just made a lot of sense. I think if we were doing Bcache FS or ButterFS on that machine. 00:14:04.831 --> 00:14:05.617 Probably wouldn't be a big deal. 00:14:05.617 --> 00:14:09.817 It probably wouldn't matter. But then if we were trying to use an NVIDIA driver or an AMD driver. 00:14:09.817 --> 00:14:10.437 Then it could be. 00:14:10.437 --> 00:14:13.654 It could be. So again, I'd like to know how you pick and what you pick. 00:14:14.061 --> 00:14:17.927 Let us know. But let's talk about 7.2 because I feel like we've been building 00:14:17.927 --> 00:14:20.587 to this for weeks, especially since we learned about the death of AppleTalk 00:14:20.587 --> 00:14:23.047 coming at 7.2. So what stands out to you, Wes? 00:14:23.552 --> 00:14:24.933 Yeah, there's a lot of exciting stuff. 00:14:25.968 --> 00:14:30.668 A few highlights for today, though. The cache-aware task scheduler. 00:14:30.668 --> 00:14:31.108 Yeah, buddy. 00:14:31.108 --> 00:14:34.498 The scheduler now knows which cores share a cache. 00:14:34.498 --> 00:14:38.788 It groups tasks that share data onto the same cache domain, so you stop paying 00:14:38.788 --> 00:14:43.288 cache miss penalties across cores. Now, we should be clear, this really only 00:14:43.288 --> 00:14:47.008 counts if you are on a system like Epic or Xeon that has multiple cache domains. 00:14:47.008 --> 00:14:49.063 You're not going to see it on a single cache domain device. 00:14:49.470 --> 00:14:53.738 But if you have that, this is basically like a free performance when you don't 00:14:53.738 --> 00:14:56.428 do anything except upgrade your kernel and things get faster. 00:14:56.428 --> 00:14:58.708 See all those Xeon CPUs, boys? 00:14:58.708 --> 00:14:59.298 Sweet. 00:14:59.298 --> 00:15:03.582 I'm going to go dust off that old Mac Pro upstairs that's like 15 years old that's got Xeons in it. 00:15:04.023 --> 00:15:08.618 And I'm going to... Actually, I do have an active Xeon system in production that I think about it. 00:15:08.618 --> 00:15:09.268 Oh. So I love it. 00:15:09.268 --> 00:15:09.625 I love it. 00:15:09.834 --> 00:15:10.838 Well, time to update. 00:15:10.838 --> 00:15:11.384 Mm-hmm. 00:15:11.494 --> 00:15:12.848 Or it will be in August. 00:15:12.848 --> 00:15:13.218 Yeah. 00:15:14.068 --> 00:15:16.358 Okay. Not the only work on the scheduler, though. 00:15:16.388 --> 00:15:16.838 Okay. 00:15:16.838 --> 00:15:19.368 And scheduler stuff. I mean, not only is it one of the trickiest areas, 00:15:19.368 --> 00:15:22.508 I think, of the whole kernel, but it can tend to really, you know, 00:15:22.508 --> 00:15:24.968 it can have regressions pretty easily. It can be very noticeable, 00:15:24.968 --> 00:15:27.690 or it can have a lot of performance impact. 00:15:28.056 --> 00:15:30.923 So another change is a fairer GPU scheduler. 00:15:31.583 --> 00:15:35.368 The kernel's DRM scheduler used to default to high priority for GPU jobs. 00:15:36.028 --> 00:15:40.188 Now it defaults to fair. So GPU time gets distributed more evenly when you've 00:15:40.188 --> 00:15:41.736 got multiple things competing for it. 00:15:42.276 --> 00:15:45.208 And if you're running GPU pass-through to a VM or something like that, 00:15:45.208 --> 00:15:50.687 while also running all your fancy desktop compositing as you do, this should help. 00:15:51.180 --> 00:15:55.278 if you've just got like one gpu you know churning away at like a ml task or 00:15:55.278 --> 00:15:59.058 just rendering one thing specifically you probably won't notice but again these 00:15:59.058 --> 00:16:03.679 are hardware specific but that even makes them you know a little more challenging to do yeah, 00:16:04.352 --> 00:16:05.947 So it's impressive we're seeing the changes. 00:16:05.947 --> 00:16:09.887 Okay, you got anything for a guy that's just got a regular old computer that 00:16:09.887 --> 00:16:14.116 doesn't have like Xeons or, you know, multiple Goopoos? 00:16:14.609 --> 00:16:17.587 Well, we do have memory reclaiming. How about that? 00:16:17.587 --> 00:16:19.447 All right. I like that. 00:16:19.447 --> 00:16:22.939 The kernel's page reclaim got a lot smarter in 7.2. 00:16:23.677 --> 00:16:28.797 MGLRU improvements are showing 30 to 100% higher throughput on things like MongoDB, 00:16:29.277 --> 00:16:30.847 which is kind of just a test workload. 00:16:30.847 --> 00:16:31.210 All right. 00:16:31.466 --> 00:16:35.837 And your page allocator isn't stuck and always handing out 2MB anymore. 00:16:35.837 --> 00:16:40.173 It can hand out 16K, 32K, 64K pages, smaller bits. 00:16:40.382 --> 00:16:44.427 It means less overhead on every memory lookup. And that means instead of having 00:16:44.427 --> 00:16:49.014 to allocate more stuff than you actually need, programs can request and get 00:16:49.246 --> 00:16:50.017 more reasonable amounts. 00:16:50.837 --> 00:16:52.577 I can't believe that wasn't a thing already. 00:16:52.577 --> 00:16:55.707 Yeah. There's definitely some of that in here. 00:16:55.707 --> 00:17:00.131 You're telling me the huge page allocator in Linux has been stuck at 2 megabytes forever? 00:17:00.729 --> 00:17:01.106 Yeah. 00:17:02.702 --> 00:17:06.341 Wow. Okay. That's a big one. That's a big one. All right. You got me. 00:17:06.351 --> 00:17:11.341 And it should mean container startup and teardown in particular should be noticeably faster. 00:17:11.341 --> 00:17:13.731 All right. All right. You got me on board, Wes. 00:17:13.731 --> 00:17:16.331 And maybe you don't want to be using it, but if you do... 00:17:16.751 --> 00:17:16.994 What? 00:17:17.552 --> 00:17:19.241 Your pal swap also got faster. 00:17:19.241 --> 00:17:21.201 Oh, you know, you never know. Sometimes you got to swap. 00:17:21.201 --> 00:17:25.111 Yeah. Back in the old days, the bad old days, swap used to route different memory 00:17:25.111 --> 00:17:28.678 types through different code paths. That's gone, cleaned up, unified. 00:17:28.893 --> 00:17:30.855 Less bookkeeping, less bloat. 00:17:31.598 --> 00:17:34.118 and at the end of the day that just makes it faster. 00:17:34.321 --> 00:17:39.156 I like to put my swap on a ram disc so i'm glad to see that performance has been improved. 00:17:39.429 --> 00:17:44.514 Now it's not all good news necessarily there are some regressions here um that, 00:17:45.461 --> 00:17:48.881 you know that's being worked on though but rfs in particular is in a bit of 00:17:48.881 --> 00:17:54.121 active surgery um large folio supports on by default now okay and they've improved 00:17:54.121 --> 00:17:58.510 things there was a previous direct io regression that got a fix 00:17:58.940 --> 00:18:01.581 a 59 throughput fix no less. 00:18:01.581 --> 00:18:02.493 Jeez, okay. 00:18:02.783 --> 00:18:06.521 But, as a result of that, you know, so you had to do that to get the new fix. 00:18:06.521 --> 00:18:08.234 You had to get the performance improvement. 00:18:08.495 --> 00:18:11.334 We got large folio support that speeds things up. Right. But, 00:18:11.589 --> 00:18:13.354 it did also introduce regression itself. 00:18:13.824 --> 00:18:18.161 In particular, if you're running KVM guess with RAM backed by a ButterFS file, 00:18:18.161 --> 00:18:21.127 so it's like a particular setup, it can cause a deadlock. 00:18:22.845 --> 00:18:22.951 Hmm. 00:18:23.501 --> 00:18:27.171 But they're working on the patch. I don't know yet if that's going to land in 00:18:27.171 --> 00:18:30.441 7.2 ultimately. I hope so. But, we haven't gotten there yet. 00:18:30.441 --> 00:18:34.697 And then they will backport it to Linux 6.12. 00:18:35.121 --> 00:18:40.141 And perhaps in a way where if this is only in the RC, then perhaps then it's 00:18:40.141 --> 00:18:42.395 a way that you just never have a possibility of getting it at all. 00:18:43.471 --> 00:18:47.061 I'm like working through all my VMs and like, is this going to hit me? 00:18:47.061 --> 00:18:48.551 And I think actually one of them does. 00:18:49.231 --> 00:18:55.061 Yeah, I could see that getting me. What you need is a super fast external storage 00:18:55.061 --> 00:18:56.843 in a different file system. 00:18:57.611 --> 00:19:01.787 Maybe some new stack for the universal serial bus could enable this, 00:19:01.787 --> 00:19:03.637 Wes? Maybe a new iteration? 00:19:03.637 --> 00:19:07.817 Oh, maybe. Yeah, we are seeing USB 4 streaming support coming. 00:19:08.457 --> 00:19:11.557 There's not hardware really, I think, out there a ton of it yet that you could 00:19:11.557 --> 00:19:13.847 actually use. So this is the case where the kernel sort of leads the way with, 00:19:14.777 --> 00:19:17.907 people doing upstream development, right? Where before the hardware exists, 00:19:17.907 --> 00:19:20.677 it's in the kernel. So then when the hardware does exist, you just plug it in 00:19:20.677 --> 00:19:21.557 and the kernel supports it. 00:19:21.557 --> 00:19:22.537 That's so great. 00:19:23.137 --> 00:19:26.037 Also stuff that isn't super used yet and isn't a little more experimental, 00:19:26.037 --> 00:19:30.377 but fun to watch because we've been paying attention is sub scheduler support 00:19:30.377 --> 00:19:34.338 in the sketch X system that's, that enables you to write your own scheduler. 00:19:34.703 --> 00:19:38.767 What's the difference between a scheduled task and a sub scheduled task, Wes? 00:19:38.924 --> 00:19:42.437 Well, like you can, you have a finer grain on, you know, because, 00:19:42.917 --> 00:19:47.317 and you can change, you can basically have tasks that have their own schedulers, right? 00:19:47.317 --> 00:19:50.687 So you can have, instead of one scheduler that has to know about how to schedule 00:19:50.687 --> 00:19:54.297 everything for every type of task, it can then have its own subscheduler that 00:19:54.297 --> 00:19:56.037 can schedule just that type of task. 00:19:56.037 --> 00:19:56.827 That's awesome. 00:19:56.827 --> 00:19:59.457 And then you can optimize it more, like maybe specifically you're trying to 00:19:59.457 --> 00:20:02.597 run a database server, right? And the database does all kinds of stuff that 00:20:02.597 --> 00:20:05.757 other kinds of applications don't do. And so you might need a scheduler that's 00:20:05.757 --> 00:20:08.157 aware, like, oh, give the database priority on this kind of thing. 00:20:08.157 --> 00:20:10.027 Dang it. You're going to make me run 7.2. 00:20:10.027 --> 00:20:11.307 Well, that was the idea. 00:20:11.307 --> 00:20:12.140 Dang it. 00:20:12.575 --> 00:20:16.217 I don't know why. I just like the number 7.2. It's got a good round shape in my brain. 00:20:16.217 --> 00:20:17.037 Yeah, it does. 00:20:17.097 --> 00:20:20.177 It's got a nice color, so we should all be running it. 00:20:20.177 --> 00:20:24.102 There has been. I mean, I was teasing earlier, But there has been a bit of cleanup 00:20:24.432 --> 00:20:26.116 in the 7.2 kernel release as well. 00:20:26.261 --> 00:20:29.997 Quite a bit of cleanup. You mentioned the networking stack. 00:20:30.317 --> 00:20:30.667 Mm-hmm. 00:20:30.859 --> 00:20:36.857 And you mentioned a third of the patch of RC5 is networking alone. 00:20:37.257 --> 00:20:41.147 So mostly driver-side stuff. And Linus himself said, nothing in there strikes 00:20:41.147 --> 00:20:42.654 me as particularly strange or scary. 00:20:44.037 --> 00:20:44.977 So don't worry, guys. 00:20:47.171 --> 00:20:47.977 Oh, man. 00:20:48.988 --> 00:20:52.186 Also, there's a, hey, you remember the Sega Dreamcast? Yeah. 00:20:52.355 --> 00:20:56.157 Did you guys play that? Yeah. That was like a peak late nineties, really. 00:20:56.302 --> 00:20:58.688 Oh, I played the heck out of that. Yeah. That was 1998. 00:20:58.798 --> 00:20:58.935 Wow. 00:20:59.529 --> 00:21:04.835 Well, the Dreamcast is still getting driver fixes. So there's a mouse driver 00:21:04.835 --> 00:21:05.655 null pointer dereference. 00:21:05.655 --> 00:21:06.629 It had drivers at all? 00:21:07.215 --> 00:21:08.195 And a mouse? Okay. 00:21:08.615 --> 00:21:13.585 I mean, we should investigate maybe. So there was a null pointer dereference 00:21:13.585 --> 00:21:16.068 since 2017 and that's been fixed. 00:21:16.695 --> 00:21:18.195 That's got to be an LLM fix. 00:21:18.535 --> 00:21:18.925 For sure. 00:21:18.925 --> 00:21:19.615 That's got to be. 00:21:21.215 --> 00:21:24.285 I mean, it's kind of interesting almost that this happened. And are people on 00:21:24.285 --> 00:21:26.755 the list being like, why do we still support the Dreamcast? 00:21:27.315 --> 00:21:28.705 You can't have AppleTalk. 00:21:28.705 --> 00:21:30.335 But the Dreamcast is totally fine. 00:21:30.335 --> 00:21:33.475 I like to think there's a couple of load-bearing Dreamcasts out there running 00:21:33.475 --> 00:21:36.555 the LAMP stack. That's what I like. 00:21:36.555 --> 00:21:40.035 Look, it's been hosting my personal website since 1998. 00:21:40.035 --> 00:21:43.065 Or it's like some kernel developer's email server from like, 00:21:43.065 --> 00:21:44.715 yeah, 99 or something like that. 00:21:45.315 --> 00:21:48.371 Like in 2000, he gave up on it and just turned into a Linux mail server. 00:21:49.103 --> 00:21:50.107 And they're still maintaining it. 00:21:51.116 --> 00:21:56.265 Well, they might be running off disks, so GDROMs, those disks, 00:21:56.904 --> 00:22:00.442 mount properly now in the Gamecast, just in case you're having that problem. 00:22:01.942 --> 00:22:05.571 But don't forget, i486 is also gone from that. 00:22:06.900 --> 00:22:08.122 Wow, right. 00:22:08.122 --> 00:22:08.525 Yeah. 00:22:08.885 --> 00:22:11.056 Hey, 14,000 lines removed, though. 00:22:11.753 --> 00:22:16.062 It's true. That's quite a few. That's 80 whole files. 00:22:16.402 --> 00:22:23.740 And Linus says here, zero real reason for anybody to waste one second of development effort on this. 00:22:24.419 --> 00:22:30.782 It launched in 1989, supported for 37 years in total, which is 18 years after 00:22:30.782 --> 00:22:32.598 Intel stopped making them. 00:22:33.375 --> 00:22:38.582 6.12 LTS still supports it, though, till 2036. So don't worry, Chris. 00:22:38.942 --> 00:22:41.922 That 6.12 is the MVP kernel, guys. 00:22:43.222 --> 00:22:46.838 Yeah, you want your Apple talk, you want your 486. 00:22:48.662 --> 00:22:51.556 Honestly, if we're still going in 2035, 2036, 00:22:55.782 --> 00:23:00.342 hand to sky, I hope, we should load up 612 and get a 486 box that we can still get booting going. 00:23:00.342 --> 00:23:00.562 Yeah. 00:23:00.562 --> 00:23:02.030 That would be pretty great. 00:23:03.068 --> 00:23:05.975 And the Dreamcast, right? All right. I mean, this is pretty solid, 00:23:05.975 --> 00:23:08.575 right? We've got a lot of kernel releases here. I mean, a lot of times you're 00:23:08.575 --> 00:23:11.025 not even going to have to think about this. We like to think about it. 00:23:11.025 --> 00:23:14.236 We like to pick. But I think a lot of us don't actually have to think about it that much. 00:23:14.695 --> 00:23:17.376 We hope that maybe you're the kind of person that does give it some thought. 00:23:17.765 --> 00:23:21.648 Seven kernels. Two of them are finally aging out at the end of this year. 00:23:22.755 --> 00:23:25.131 And one that does kind of break your GPU performance, so be careful. 00:23:25.294 --> 00:23:30.195 But the clear MVPs for home labs, if you need modern graphics hardware, 00:23:30.195 --> 00:23:33.990 is 618. and if you just want to set it and forget it forever, is 6.12. 00:23:34.553 --> 00:23:39.121 I mean, 6.12 is getting the fixes that we talked about for the performance regressions. 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:43.974 It's getting support until 2035, and it's going to support 486. 00:23:44.369 --> 00:23:47.435 Probably also has AppleTalk in there. I mean, probably has AppleTalk, right? 00:23:47.435 --> 00:23:48.035 It does. 00:23:48.035 --> 00:23:50.592 Oh, my goodness. What an MVP of a kernel. 00:23:50.923 --> 00:23:52.624 Are we calling it the legacy kernel? 00:23:54.069 --> 00:23:57.935 I think we should call it the MVP super kernel. I mean, that's what they call it. It's the MVP super. 00:23:58.371 --> 00:23:58.771 Let's do it. 00:23:59.236 --> 00:24:02.165 We got all kinds of links in the show notes. if you would like to nerd out and 00:24:02.165 --> 00:24:05.485 read more. And there is some good reading in there. And you know where to find 00:24:05.485 --> 00:24:07.171 those show notes over at linuxunplugged.com. 00:24:17.925 --> 00:24:21.805 Well, we got a really nice email into the show this week, or more accurately, 00:24:21.805 --> 00:24:24.440 into my personal email. And here's the title. 00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:28.143 Serious Security Advisory for Your Cold Card. 00:24:29.188 --> 00:24:32.671 And I thought this was a scam at first because I've been getting a lot of really, 00:24:33.466 --> 00:24:37.617 quite sophisticated spam into my email. And it's been very entertaining to watch. 00:24:37.617 --> 00:24:39.399 But nope, this one's real. 00:24:39.881 --> 00:24:45.285 And it got me a little nervous about what the heck is happening out there. 00:24:45.744 --> 00:24:48.797 Do you guys have any idea why I got this email? 00:24:48.797 --> 00:24:51.717 This is really a tragic story. 00:24:52.217 --> 00:24:59.057 As of this weekend, almost 2,000 addresses have been drained of nearly $90 million worth of Bitcoin, 00:25:00.057 --> 00:25:03.907 affecting cold card wallets, initially the cold card Mark III devices, 00:25:04.610 --> 00:25:08.277 and then later expanded to include certain Mark IV, Mark V, and cold card Q 00:25:08.617 --> 00:25:11.557 firmware versions, basically everything but the most current emergency firmware 00:25:11.557 --> 00:25:12.743 that was released over the weekend. 00:25:13.478 --> 00:25:18.424 And it comes down to an issue in how the cold card generated random numbers. 00:25:19.271 --> 00:25:24.887 You know, we're going to get into this. Randomness has been a real challenge 00:25:24.887 --> 00:25:29.482 and a challenge for Linux, too, that has gone wrong in catastrophe kind of ways. 00:25:30.370 --> 00:25:35.517 So in this case, the cold card had a firmware bug that sent the seed generation down the wrong path. 00:25:35.517 --> 00:25:41.717 Instead of using the hardware that was built in to derive a seed phrase or a 00:25:41.717 --> 00:25:45.736 key that had low entropy, it was falling back to like a Python script. 00:25:45.922 --> 00:25:50.997 In fact, a micro Python script that roughly generated an entropy of 40 bits 00:25:50.997 --> 00:25:53.898 on the Mark III and 72 bits on the later devices. 00:25:54.090 --> 00:25:57.807 Yeah, it's essentially the micro Python runtime provides sort of like a random, 00:25:57.807 --> 00:26:00.138 a basic random generated. It'd be fine if you were using it for, 00:26:00.272 --> 00:26:03.527 like, you know, an offset in a cron job or something like that. 00:26:03.527 --> 00:26:06.497 But it is not meant to be cryptographically secure. 00:26:06.497 --> 00:26:10.779 Yeah, it doesn't generate complex enough cryptography that it can't be figured out. 00:26:11.365 --> 00:26:14.327 So the hardware was designed to generate strong randomness. The hardware was 00:26:14.327 --> 00:26:19.183 present. It was working, but it just wasn't being used, which is really a tragedy. 00:26:19.735 --> 00:26:25.133 And so because people can now mathematically derive the... 00:26:25.993 --> 00:26:29.681 the seeds, they are able to essentially restore wallets on remote systems and 00:26:29.681 --> 00:26:33.671 drain the cold cards without ever having your cold card connected to the internet 00:26:33.671 --> 00:26:34.681 or your computer active. 00:26:35.171 --> 00:26:38.341 Yeah. So essentially without the hardware part that was supposed to be like 00:26:38.341 --> 00:26:43.021 the secure random entropy, the fallback random number generator was seeded from 00:26:43.021 --> 00:26:46.811 the chip's UID, which is like a unique ID on the chip that has a limited possible 00:26:46.811 --> 00:26:50.101 amount of numbers, and a boot time timer state. 00:26:50.542 --> 00:26:55.301 And neither of those are truly secret. And a lot of them, it turns out to be 00:26:55.301 --> 00:26:58.461 kind of closer to a predictable range than something random. 00:26:58.821 --> 00:27:02.441 And then so if you can kind of constrain the space of things that the initial 00:27:02.441 --> 00:27:05.951 secrets generated from, then you can explore that space and the rest of it's 00:27:05.951 --> 00:27:07.110 all just deterministic. 00:27:07.585 --> 00:27:11.352 And then you can generate a whole bunch of private keys at once and then just go check them. 00:27:11.642 --> 00:27:15.241 Yeah. And before the computing machine became easily accessible to us, 00:27:15.241 --> 00:27:18.211 analysis confirmed in the past that the hardware worked. That's what people 00:27:18.211 --> 00:27:21.441 really focused on in their audits is that the hardware did what the hardware said it did. 00:27:21.481 --> 00:27:27.601 But they didn't test if the actual path to activate it was working until LLM-assisted 00:27:27.601 --> 00:27:30.160 security reviews came along and discovered it. 00:27:30.874 --> 00:27:35.181 Yeah, because the code to use the hardware is in the binary. 00:27:35.181 --> 00:27:38.252 Like it's built in, it's available. It's just never called. 00:27:38.443 --> 00:27:44.481 Yeah, yeah. So the code exists, it works, but they failed to verify it was actually being used. 00:27:45.113 --> 00:27:49.369 And so as a result, attackers have been able to access people's funds. 00:27:50.106 --> 00:27:52.661 And that's a tragedy because people thought they were doing the best thing they 00:27:52.661 --> 00:27:54.919 could for themselves. They were keeping them offline and all of that. 00:27:55.661 --> 00:28:01.951 And it got us thinking about some of the previous times in Linux where random 00:28:01.951 --> 00:28:03.638 number generation has gone horribly wrong. 00:28:04.137 --> 00:28:09.063 It's not necessarily a hardware story itself. It's really about the difficulty, 00:28:09.551 --> 00:28:12.631 of generating true randomness on deterministic systems, right? 00:28:12.631 --> 00:28:15.051 Because if you give a computer the same input, you're going to get the same 00:28:15.051 --> 00:28:16.053 output every single time. 00:28:16.430 --> 00:28:20.001 So the limitation then is how do you generate something that is truly uniquely 00:28:20.001 --> 00:28:21.708 random on a deterministic system? 00:28:22.461 --> 00:28:27.094 And it has to be something that's sound and secure and hopefully as future-proof as possible. 00:28:27.570 --> 00:28:31.053 So when something like this happens, well, you don't get rugged. 00:28:31.587 --> 00:28:35.739 And that is more difficult than it seems. And it's something that Linux has 00:28:35.739 --> 00:28:39.349 been working on since the very early days, like since 1994. 00:28:39.349 --> 00:28:42.569 Yeah. It's essentially cryptographic security is essentially a bet, 00:28:42.569 --> 00:28:44.991 right? It's like not a law of physics. It's not a guarantee. 00:28:45.327 --> 00:28:50.249 You are just trying to do everything you can to have a giant pool of randomness to pull from. 00:28:50.778 --> 00:28:55.879 and then keep that hidden and secret and intact across the entire chain. 00:28:55.879 --> 00:28:59.579 And there really is a chain. Like it's not just, you know, give me number and 00:28:59.579 --> 00:29:01.529 done. It takes a lot of setup. 00:29:02.214 --> 00:29:06.299 So kind of how it works today, the very first step is some of the most important 00:29:06.299 --> 00:29:09.969 and that's getting quote unquote unpredictable inputs. And this is stuff that 00:29:09.969 --> 00:29:12.388 comes from a large space that's really hard to guess. 00:29:12.788 --> 00:29:17.279 So Linux, the kernel is continuously collecting small little timing variations 00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:20.179 and environmental noise and pieces of the system that are sensitive to things 00:29:20.179 --> 00:29:23.649 like that. So when does a hardware interrupt fire? Which one fired? 00:29:23.649 --> 00:29:28.759 It can even be like noise from the disk, user input, just things that the system 00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:29.979 generates that are unique. 00:29:29.979 --> 00:29:34.180 Totally. CPU timing, bootloader provided seeds you can use if you want to try, 00:29:34.627 --> 00:29:36.769 to bootstrap randomness in a VM. 00:29:37.065 --> 00:29:41.989 You can also use hardware things either like included by your CPU manufacturer 00:29:41.989 --> 00:29:44.106 or an add-on device or something like that. 00:29:44.600 --> 00:29:48.319 And part of the idea here is that no, you're not trying to make sure to have 00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:52.249 every single source needing to be perfect on its own, you can try to mix them 00:29:52.249 --> 00:29:55.439 together so that even if some don't have as much randomness in there as you 00:29:55.439 --> 00:29:59.478 think, you're still getting a good final randomness on the other side. 00:30:00.401 --> 00:30:04.842 So after you're able to find a bunch of different sources, you mix that into your entropy pool. 00:30:05.375 --> 00:30:10.161 And you need to be careful because the most dangerous time is when you boot something up fresh. 00:30:10.161 --> 00:30:13.251 Because there hasn't been a lot of time for environmental noise to get into 00:30:13.251 --> 00:30:15.721 the system. There hasn't been that you haven't really done anything yet. 00:30:15.721 --> 00:30:20.111 It's all kind of starting code cold from the very non-random initial firmware 00:30:20.111 --> 00:30:22.633 and like, you know, first code that runs on the system. 00:30:23.062 --> 00:30:27.021 And so a lot of work over the years has been around like, do we need to block 00:30:27.021 --> 00:30:30.431 if there's not enough randomness or not? What does it mean to have enough randomness or not? 00:30:30.611 --> 00:30:33.981 And Intel has tried to solve it with their RAND kind of built-in stuff that's 00:30:33.981 --> 00:30:36.611 trying to generate some noise. But, of course, that thing's a black box. 00:30:36.611 --> 00:30:38.711 You can't use it as the one source of truth. 00:30:38.711 --> 00:30:41.001 Yes. And that's where, like, the kernel folks have said, like, 00:30:41.001 --> 00:30:44.291 it's OK to use, we think, but we're not going to rely on it in terms of being 00:30:44.291 --> 00:30:46.951 the only option. We're going to make sure we mix it into a bunch of other stuff. 00:30:46.951 --> 00:30:49.371 So even if it is compromised, that limits the damage. 00:30:49.371 --> 00:30:55.361 Yeah, I would say, in a way, the random generator in Linux is a story of learning 00:30:55.361 --> 00:31:00.644 that we need multiple sources and we need to make sure that we don't trust any one particular source. 00:31:01.149 --> 00:31:05.861 We have a clip from Jason Donfeld, and he took over the Linux random generation 00:31:05.861 --> 00:31:08.967 system from Theodore So, who originally created it in 94. 00:31:09.472 --> 00:31:13.901 And this was some of Jason's observations when he started working on it. 00:31:13.901 --> 00:31:17.811 And, you know, he's a developer and he tells it like it is. But I think if you 00:31:17.811 --> 00:31:19.751 look through that, it's a fair assessment. 00:31:19.751 --> 00:31:23.481 It's in Random.c, which is really old code. It dates back, as far as I could 00:31:23.481 --> 00:31:26.181 find, to version 1.3.30. I 00:31:26.181 --> 00:31:29.604 mean, it's really ancient code. There's a copyright date on it from 1994. 00:31:30.266 --> 00:31:33.998 So I think that even the code was living someplace else before there. 00:31:35.188 --> 00:31:39.511 But actually, considering when it was written, it's not so bad. 00:31:40.436 --> 00:31:45.817 it's held up remarkably well despite the knowledge that was around in that time, 00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:52.905 and I think for all intents and purposes it's okay, it's held up it's been done, 00:31:53.874 --> 00:31:56.783 with some reasonable intelligence but yeah, 00:31:57.967 --> 00:32:01.640 Still, over time, there's been a lot of complexity added to it. 00:32:02.116 --> 00:32:06.022 But that complexity is kind of necessary in order to generate randomness that 00:32:06.022 --> 00:32:07.932 doesn't have one single point of failure as well. 00:32:07.932 --> 00:32:11.172 Yeah, I think his point, too, is sort of identifying, like, what's the essential 00:32:11.172 --> 00:32:14.412 complexity and what's sort of the complexity that's just crept in over years 00:32:14.412 --> 00:32:18.951 of maintenance? And how do we keep what we need, but also keep it simple enough to understand? 00:32:19.206 --> 00:32:24.338 And so on Linux, as an end user, you perceive this as there's dev random and there's dev u random. 00:32:24.854 --> 00:32:28.062 And when I was reading about this, one of the things that I thought was really 00:32:28.062 --> 00:32:32.502 fascinating is early on, DevRandom, or maybe it was DevURandom, 00:32:32.502 --> 00:32:36.813 I can't remember, but one of them would essentially let an application ask for a random number. 00:32:37.679 --> 00:32:41.220 but wouldn't force the application to wait for the correct answer. 00:32:41.376 --> 00:32:44.617 And so applications would query, but this thing would take a minute to generate, 00:32:44.617 --> 00:32:47.327 and then they would be like, okay, got it, when they didn't actually have like 00:32:47.327 --> 00:32:51.895 a truly random number generated. And so later on, they had to create an API, 00:32:52.365 --> 00:32:55.262 that would force the application. 00:32:55.807 --> 00:32:58.315 It's just called get random. It's the get random API on the Linux kernel. 00:32:58.768 --> 00:33:02.237 They had to create this API that would essentially manage all of that for the 00:33:02.237 --> 00:33:05.397 application so they could, in a sense, force the application to wait for true 00:33:05.397 --> 00:33:06.499 randomness to be generated. 00:33:06.743 --> 00:33:11.097 but then for compatibility reasons they had to like allow the api to also keep 00:33:11.097 --> 00:33:13.467 that working in the background and just allow the application to move on and 00:33:13.467 --> 00:33:16.267 think it had everything it needed like it's it's this funny kind of line they 00:33:16.267 --> 00:33:21.324 have to walk every time they try to make a change to the system so i imagine complexity does seep in. 00:33:21.853 --> 00:33:25.887 Yeah and i think part of it was just being confused around like the intentions 00:33:25.887 --> 00:33:30.277 like you random versus random was like never super clear but what the new interface 00:33:30.277 --> 00:33:34.189 is able to do and get random is it has um underneath there's crng ready 00:33:34.421 --> 00:33:38.427 and so the kernel now tracks whether its random number generator has been seeded with enough 00:33:38.803 --> 00:33:42.767 quote-unquote real entropy to be trusted and that's the gate you want 00:33:43.187 --> 00:33:46.327 to wait for it doesn't really matter if you've generated a bunch after that 00:33:46.327 --> 00:33:50.170 which is sort of where the you random versus random didn't ultimately make sense 00:33:50.466 --> 00:33:52.584 but what does matter is especially at early boot 00:33:53.009 --> 00:33:57.527 has the pool itself had enough mixed in entropy yet and that you probably do 00:33:57.527 --> 00:34:00.152 want to wait for and that's where it becomes important to like, 00:34:00.750 --> 00:34:04.757 you know not roll your own stuff to rely on standard apis to rely on trusted 00:34:04.757 --> 00:34:09.027 audited libraries that are using the correct code paths because that can and 00:34:09.027 --> 00:34:10.630 does change over the years. 00:34:11.356 --> 00:34:13.962 There's been improvements. Is there anything else you want to touch on before 00:34:13.962 --> 00:34:15.402 we talk about when it went horribly wrong? 00:34:16.110 --> 00:34:18.942 No, I guess just the rough idea is, 00:34:21.402 --> 00:34:25.662 you grab random bits, you mix them into a pool, you wait until that pool has 00:34:25.662 --> 00:34:30.402 sufficient entropy, then you use deterministic pseudo-random number generator 00:34:30.402 --> 00:34:33.943 stuff like cha-cha 20 in the current kernel and that sort of stretches that value. 00:34:34.234 --> 00:34:39.232 it can't add more stuff, but it can turn like initial secret seeds into big 00:34:39.232 --> 00:34:40.729 long streams of random numbers. 00:34:40.956 --> 00:34:43.572 And that's what you actually pull from. And they sort of generate ephemeral 00:34:43.572 --> 00:34:46.282 keys and then generate stuff and then throw them away. And there's a whole process 00:34:46.282 --> 00:34:49.162 around that, but it's not adding new entropy. It's just using the entropy you 00:34:49.162 --> 00:34:52.728 have to get as many random bits as you actually need for user space. 00:34:54.286 --> 00:34:57.696 Okay, so when you don't get enough random bits, you have situations like the 00:34:57.696 --> 00:35:05.966 cold card or a situation that lasted multiple years, CVE 2008-0166, 00:35:05.966 --> 00:35:08.690 also known as Debian's OpenSSL bug. 00:35:09.826 --> 00:35:14.926 I remember this one. And it started very innocently. A Debian package maintainer 00:35:14.926 --> 00:35:19.806 was trying to silence a memory analysis tool, a Valgrant warning about OpenSSL 00:35:20.166 --> 00:35:22.059 utilizing uninitialized memory. 00:35:22.366 --> 00:35:25.913 And it seemed like, okay, well, this is an easy two-line fix. Clean that up. 00:35:26.145 --> 00:35:29.466 And normally that's good, right? Because why are you reading from memory that 00:35:29.466 --> 00:35:32.146 hasn't been initialized? It can't possibly have a value you want. 00:35:32.146 --> 00:35:37.140 Right. So they remove those lines of code. They ship it. Everything seems to be fine. 00:35:37.691 --> 00:35:42.606 The issue was is that they had basically really cut down the entropy of the 00:35:42.606 --> 00:35:47.866 keys that were getting generated for things like OpenSSL, which you can imagine what that impacts. 00:35:47.866 --> 00:35:51.426 In fact, it didn't just impact OpenSSL. It was like everything that needed a 00:35:51.426 --> 00:35:57.996 cert. So SSH, all your X509 keys, like everything got affected by this. 00:35:58.385 --> 00:36:03.691 And the worst part was it was out in the wild for two years before researchers discovered it. 00:36:04.606 --> 00:36:12.625 So this bug, which affected OpenSSL, the random number generator, 00:36:13.726 --> 00:36:19.875 was introduced two years ago due to a Debian-specific patch. 00:36:20.467 --> 00:36:22.632 So it's a Tebian-specific bug, 00:36:24.780 --> 00:36:31.836 and remained undiscovered for two years, almost exactly two years until Luciano 00:36:31.836 --> 00:36:38.503 discovered this, and it was published on May of 2008. 00:36:39.217 --> 00:36:43.996 Think about the scope of this for a moment, right? You've got to reissue and 00:36:43.996 --> 00:36:50.549 revoke every key that was created from 2006 to 2008. 00:36:51.083 --> 00:36:52.759 There were, I mean, just... 00:36:53.817 --> 00:36:56.503 Maybe millions, could have been in the millions that were affected by that. 00:36:56.503 --> 00:36:58.853 It was a massive, massive issue. 00:36:58.853 --> 00:37:04.219 Yeah, it also affected a chunk of live Tor relay nodes at the time, which isn't great. 00:37:05.063 --> 00:37:09.103 Under the hood, what was happening is that OpenSSL was actually intentionally 00:37:09.103 --> 00:37:14.403 using uninitialized memory as an unpredictability source. The idea is on different 00:37:14.403 --> 00:37:17.713 systems, other processes, whatever has been in that system, how it came up in 00:37:17.713 --> 00:37:19.388 the hardware, all of that will be different. 00:37:19.642 --> 00:37:24.936 And so it's one of the very few times you might actually legitimately read from uninitialized memory. 00:37:25.081 --> 00:37:28.323 Valgrind doesn't know that. And there hadn't been any infrastructure or communication 00:37:28.323 --> 00:37:31.343 or clearly comments around it or whatever to, like, make it clear. 00:37:31.343 --> 00:37:34.543 And so when you remove that, it wasn't like there was no other sources, 00:37:34.543 --> 00:37:38.663 but it was essentially only the process ID that was left in the pool of entropy. 00:37:38.663 --> 00:37:42.161 And so that's like a number between 1 and, like, 32K at the time. 00:37:43.443 --> 00:37:46.733 And that's not enough, right? Right. You'll start having. And so what how they 00:37:46.733 --> 00:37:50.263 found it is that they found real world collisions out there. 00:37:50.263 --> 00:37:50.553 Right. 00:37:50.553 --> 00:37:55.473 And that's the only way you can, because if you just look at output from this 00:37:55.473 --> 00:37:58.313 random number generator, you can do statistical tests on it. 00:37:58.313 --> 00:38:01.713 You can look at just sampling that one value won't tell you. 00:38:01.713 --> 00:38:04.833 It doesn't tell you how big of a space it came from you. The only way to do 00:38:04.833 --> 00:38:09.337 it is by looking at huge samples of the outputs in the real world, effectively. 00:38:09.674 --> 00:38:13.143 And so it's it's really hard to do, especially for a developer making a change. 00:38:13.143 --> 00:38:15.258 And it's kind of the thing that tends to favor the attacker. 00:38:16.773 --> 00:38:22.195 It strikes me, too, that if an automation tool led to a mistake like this today, 00:38:22.683 --> 00:38:26.003 we would probably spend 90 percent of the discussion having an existential panic 00:38:26.003 --> 00:38:29.266 about automation tools and 10 percent of the discussion about the actual bug. 00:38:29.794 --> 00:38:32.083 But back then, it wasn't that wasn't the conversation at all. 00:38:32.083 --> 00:38:36.139 And it was so it was so massive. And there was a lot of downstream issues as well. 00:38:37.127 --> 00:38:41.143 And it's reminiscent of the cold card issue. 00:38:41.683 --> 00:38:46.021 When you dig through it, you know, it looks like this person that made this 00:38:46.021 --> 00:38:48.741 commitment, I don't know for sure, but it looks like maybe they were a Python 00:38:48.741 --> 00:38:51.701 person and they didn't understand the C code and they didn't really know what they were looking at. 00:38:52.125 --> 00:38:56.511 They thought they applied a fix that solved an error that was happening when 00:38:56.511 --> 00:38:58.361 they were compiling the firmware. 00:38:58.361 --> 00:39:01.891 They would get this compiler error over and over again, and the guy went in, 00:39:01.891 --> 00:39:05.781 or the gal, I don't know who it was, went in and made the change that ultimately 00:39:05.781 --> 00:39:09.058 bypassed the hardware and used the MicroPython. 00:39:09.991 --> 00:39:13.441 And they resolved the build error and considered it fixed. 00:39:13.713 --> 00:39:19.761 And all the tests were making sure that the build flag was there to say enable 00:39:19.761 --> 00:39:21.551 the hardware RNG, and it was there. 00:39:21.891 --> 00:39:25.041 It was just supposed to be a one, and it was a zero. And there was no check 00:39:25.041 --> 00:39:27.931 on the value. There was only ever a check that the var existed. 00:39:28.551 --> 00:39:33.595 So I just sat there for 20 months just waiting for somebody to come along with a tool to find it. 00:39:34.623 --> 00:39:37.821 And it is a case, right, if you did add your own passphrase thing on top, 00:39:37.821 --> 00:39:40.321 if you had brought in your own sources of randomness. 00:39:40.321 --> 00:39:43.145 Yeah, which you can with a cold card. You can provide your own entropy. 00:39:43.458 --> 00:39:46.421 But if you didn't. You have to do that, right? And if you're buying a device 00:39:46.421 --> 00:39:47.411 like that, you assume it's... 00:39:47.411 --> 00:39:49.461 Part of the value was like, well, this has a hardware source. 00:39:49.461 --> 00:39:51.091 That's part of why I'm buying it. 00:39:51.751 --> 00:39:55.392 It's so sad that the exact thing they were promising is the thing they didn't do. 00:39:56.951 --> 00:39:57.171 Yes. 00:39:57.491 --> 00:39:58.181 Unintentionally. 00:39:58.181 --> 00:40:02.288 And it was for people that had all the best intentions. But it makes me realize, 00:40:02.445 --> 00:40:04.761 you said at the beginning, or towards the middle there, Wes, 00:40:04.761 --> 00:40:08.337 you said, you know, don't reinvent the wheel. Try to use things that exist. 00:40:09.531 --> 00:40:14.721 In a crazy twist of fate, people that rolled on a Linux box and used the Linux 00:40:14.721 --> 00:40:17.509 random number generator are better off. 00:40:18.707 --> 00:40:22.747 And I think there's a lesson in that. And it's why Linux is so important to 00:40:22.747 --> 00:40:27.727 us as a society is that it is a general technology platform where there are 00:40:27.727 --> 00:40:31.916 people with mutual incentives that are improving the system and making it and testing it. 00:40:32.305 --> 00:40:37.147 And every time we go outside of that and we recreate something, you take on risk. 00:40:37.147 --> 00:40:41.457 And this time it's a type of risk that was at the firmware provider level when 00:40:41.457 --> 00:40:46.317 a lot of people were thinking about physical security and air gapping and 9-volt 00:40:46.317 --> 00:40:47.896 batteries and all this kind of stuff. 00:40:49.047 --> 00:40:50.740 And we're not really focused on the actual threat. 00:40:50.978 --> 00:40:55.877 And it also speaks to open source is not enough. Maybe that will help in our 00:40:55.877 --> 00:40:59.007 new era of automated reviews. But the code was out there, right? 00:40:59.007 --> 00:41:02.877 It wasn't that it was, obviously the hardware is somewhat hidden, but the code was there. 00:41:02.877 --> 00:41:05.837 You know, it wasn't like a truly open source license. And I think if it had 00:41:05.837 --> 00:41:09.697 been like a GPL license, maybe more people would have built off of it and discovered 00:41:09.697 --> 00:41:12.657 this. But because they didn't want people doing that, they did like some sort 00:41:12.657 --> 00:41:14.895 of like read only you can view license kind of crap. 00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:18.204 And this is also one of the side effects of that. 00:41:18.598 --> 00:41:22.097 And it just goes back to like, that's why Linux is so important, 00:41:22.097 --> 00:41:25.127 is we have solved some of these problems and they continue to be monitored and 00:41:25.127 --> 00:41:27.307 maintained and it's done right. 00:41:27.307 --> 00:41:32.117 And it really comes back to like we invented it once and we've continued to iterate on it. 00:41:32.117 --> 00:41:36.617 And what started back in 1994 as kind of a simple system has developed into 00:41:36.617 --> 00:41:44.287 this truly robust multi-source of noise and entropy, truly great as we can get 00:41:44.287 --> 00:41:46.901 on these determined systems, random number generator. 00:41:47.483 --> 00:41:52.727 And that's just one of the many gifts of Linux is that these things like networking 00:41:52.727 --> 00:41:56.977 and disk IO and random number generation and cryptographic signals, 00:41:56.977 --> 00:42:00.307 all this stuff is handled by Linux for us. Such a gift. 00:42:00.307 --> 00:42:04.307 We get a world-class product for free. You don't have to go buy a proprietary, 00:42:06.067 --> 00:42:10.907 cryptographic enhanced private OS from Microsoft or from Qualcomm or for whatever. 00:42:10.907 --> 00:42:12.767 And just trust that they got that aspect right. 00:42:12.767 --> 00:42:16.507 Right. No, you just use the standard kernel that is open source and anyone can download. 00:42:25.622 --> 00:42:29.216 Oh my goodness, gents, there are some boosts here. We're going to start with 00:42:29.216 --> 00:42:31.172 our baller, Greg the Lawyer. 00:42:35.426 --> 00:42:39.406 Greg came in with 133,333, 00:42:42.506 --> 00:42:42.586 sets. 00:42:42.586 --> 00:42:42.948 Whoa! 00:42:52.328 --> 00:42:54.923 Thank you, Greg. Appreciate that. 00:42:55.236 --> 00:42:59.477 Greg is also adhering by the rules of the show. One of the boosts is a row of sticks. 00:43:00.322 --> 00:43:00.717 Was that a row? 00:43:00.717 --> 00:43:03.497 And it said, well, the other one is actually. 00:43:03.497 --> 00:43:03.937 It is now. 00:43:05.777 --> 00:43:10.377 We've said that, I think, twice. He wants to reward early movers on Buzz. 00:43:10.757 --> 00:43:16.047 Not for me, but as a Mac user since 1984, I appreciate those early adopters. 00:43:16.047 --> 00:43:16.807 Aw, thank you. 00:43:16.807 --> 00:43:17.497 Aw, sweet. 00:43:17.497 --> 00:43:22.367 Yeah, Greg came coming in with a live boost here because we got low support 00:43:22.367 --> 00:43:25.467 for last week's episode and we realized we probably should have waited a year 00:43:25.467 --> 00:43:26.937 to cover Buzz, and so thank you. 00:43:26.937 --> 00:43:27.057 Greg. 00:43:27.557 --> 00:43:29.217 And thanks for hanging with us, audience. 00:43:29.217 --> 00:43:33.177 Also a few Satoshis in there to feed those chickens. I do have, 00:43:33.577 --> 00:43:36.527 I wonder how I could get those public in a way that wouldn't drain my internet. 00:43:37.015 --> 00:43:41.100 But I do have a few cameras set up on those chickens. But do I want to dedicate, 00:43:42.575 --> 00:43:46.284 one to two megabits of my precious Starlink upload link? I don't know. 00:43:46.551 --> 00:43:47.487 But if I can think of a way. 00:43:47.537 --> 00:43:49.878 Isn't that why you got the mini? 00:43:50.069 --> 00:43:53.037 Well, no, I do the backup. Oh. The connecting backup. 00:43:53.037 --> 00:43:54.427 We've been planning this for months, really. 00:43:54.427 --> 00:43:57.607 And then if I have to switch to it for production, maybe I pause the streams or something. 00:43:57.607 --> 00:44:01.197 What about a system where people, it's like you boost and then the stream is 00:44:01.197 --> 00:44:02.877 opened for a certain amount of time? 00:44:02.877 --> 00:44:04.417 Opens the Ngrok tunnel to your knees. 00:44:04.417 --> 00:44:07.657 Yeah, so you get like 10, you know, send in a couple sets and you get like 10 00:44:07.657 --> 00:44:08.507 minutes of chicken camp. 00:44:08.507 --> 00:44:11.426 That's great. They are the best chickens. You would not believe. 00:44:12.277 --> 00:44:14.627 Like Labradors. Like they get on our lap and they just snuggle. 00:44:14.627 --> 00:44:19.287 It's ridiculous. And Boss, the rooster, he's got a routine now in the evening 00:44:19.287 --> 00:44:21.741 around sunset. He comes in and watches TV on the couch with us. 00:44:22.856 --> 00:44:23.674 What's his favorite show? 00:44:24.481 --> 00:44:27.860 I mean, mostly it's Magnum, but last night he was watching YouTube. 00:44:29.117 --> 00:44:32.977 He doesn't mind. He just likes the colors. Nice. Turd Ferguson comes. 00:44:32.977 --> 00:44:34.157 And thank you very much, Greg. 00:44:34.837 --> 00:44:35.707 You basically brought up the 00:44:35.707 --> 00:44:40.031 whole trend for the episode. Turd Ferguson comes in with a row of McDucks. 00:44:42.081 --> 00:44:48.222 That's 22,222 Satoshis. Oh, it's a live boost. 00:44:48.617 --> 00:44:52.721 The cold card mess has me tired. We trusted the hardware because it was offline, 00:44:53.081 --> 00:44:57.063 but the bug was already baked in and waiting fun times ahead. 00:44:58.246 --> 00:45:01.526 Yeah, pretty brutal. And then it can just sort of disappear out from under you. 00:45:01.526 --> 00:45:04.166 You don't have to do anything. It's just moved in a transaction, 00:45:04.166 --> 00:45:05.496 and the next time you check, it's gone. 00:45:05.496 --> 00:45:07.814 You're like Brent and you take a few days, you go check, and it's gone. 00:45:09.046 --> 00:45:11.646 I did check this morning because I thought that was a responsible thing to do. 00:45:11.646 --> 00:45:16.766 Not gone yet. Don't try anything on me. But I've got some homework to do after the show. 00:45:17.266 --> 00:45:18.466 Can you describe your gold card more to me? 00:45:19.026 --> 00:45:24.706 You know, it makes me think like, yeah, what else? That is a good point. 00:45:25.166 --> 00:45:26.096 Oh, that's a good question. 00:45:26.096 --> 00:45:29.696 We're just getting this thing rolling, right? Because what do you think the 00:45:29.696 --> 00:45:36.216 coincidence is that it happened a few days after Kimmy K3 with Open Weights came out publicly? 00:45:36.216 --> 00:45:40.006 And it's one of the only really current top tier models that doesn't restrict 00:45:40.006 --> 00:45:43.438 you from doing cybersecurity stuff. And then three days later, this exploit's found. 00:45:44.553 --> 00:45:48.816 I think it depends on how long it took to do some of the pre-work. 00:45:48.816 --> 00:45:50.326 But it's a good question. 00:45:50.326 --> 00:45:54.146 We may find they were cooking for months. Or we may find that they slammed it 00:45:54.146 --> 00:45:57.516 in 10 minutes with K3. Because the reason why I bring that up is now people 00:45:57.516 --> 00:46:00.786 have tried it, and it finds it in 5, 10 minutes. It's just immediate. 00:46:00.786 --> 00:46:03.916 Yeah, I think the main question is from finding it, how long does it take to 00:46:03.916 --> 00:46:05.666 generate all of the private keys? 00:46:05.666 --> 00:46:07.773 It's a massive sweep and all of that. Yeah, yeah, for sure. 00:46:08.016 --> 00:46:11.824 And I assume there was some staging before you actually submit all the transactions. 00:46:11.981 --> 00:46:13.699 but who knows that's a great question. 00:46:14.007 --> 00:46:18.206 I'm sure we'll be i mean that's the thing about the blockchain people are already putting it all. 00:46:18.206 --> 00:46:23.719 Together well e scott boosts in with 2371 sats, 00:46:24.926 --> 00:46:29.779 what what what what happened with nextcloud i have two separate instances running 00:46:29.988 --> 00:46:34.416 i even moved slash data off my windows 7 ntfs share to a proper zfs mirror with 00:46:34.416 --> 00:46:36.446 backups also this is a star trek. 00:46:41.278 --> 00:46:46.522 So a quick version is I had like a cold stop will not be using xCloud ever again 00:46:46.522 --> 00:46:52.806 moment just because the data it wiped out was some of the most valuable data possible. 00:46:53.166 --> 00:46:58.262 And so what happened is I went to view a text file just using the viewer like 00:46:58.262 --> 00:47:01.618 it's in the web interface and you click on a .txt file, 00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:06.432 and it opened and the instant it opened, it wiped the document, 00:47:06.432 --> 00:47:09.502 it put some escape characters in the top left corner and then it immediately 00:47:09.502 --> 00:47:10.721 wrote that to the file system. 00:47:11.824 --> 00:47:14.792 and it should have just been a document viewer. It shouldn't have been writing, 00:47:14.792 --> 00:47:17.752 and it did it instantly. And Wes, you looked it up, and it turned out to be 00:47:17.752 --> 00:47:23.834 some sort of in-browser issue that is very rare but happened on the client-side rendering. 00:47:24.931 --> 00:47:28.502 And I realized for what I need, there was just too much going on there. 00:47:28.502 --> 00:47:32.092 And the fact that by just viewing my most important document, 00:47:32.092 --> 00:47:35.252 which is what I used NextCloud for, was for its privacy, totally offline, 00:47:35.252 --> 00:47:38.340 off the Internet, by just viewing that document, I wiped it out. 00:47:38.943 --> 00:47:43.242 And that was when I was like, I don't need any of this. And I decided at that 00:47:43.242 --> 00:47:45.683 moment I was going to stop using it, which has been a real pain in my butt. 00:47:48.005 --> 00:47:53.512 But when something fails that catastrophically on you, sometimes it just leaves 00:47:53.512 --> 00:47:54.202 a bad taste in your mouth. 00:47:54.902 --> 00:47:57.032 And that's after it worked for me for a long, long time. 00:47:57.032 --> 00:47:59.432 And it doesn't mean it still couldn't be a great CalDev suite. 00:47:59.432 --> 00:48:02.432 There's lots of roles it still makes sense for, especially if you have robust 00:48:02.432 --> 00:48:04.312 backups and it's just one place to look at them. 00:48:04.312 --> 00:48:06.902 It was just sort of the last straw, honestly, because it's been a lot to upgrade 00:48:06.902 --> 00:48:10.859 and manage over the years. and I sort of have rolled back what I use it for to some degree. 00:48:11.342 --> 00:48:14.603 And so that was sort of the last thing I was really, really relying on it for and it bit me. 00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:16.293 And made you reconsider. Do I even need it? 00:48:16.484 --> 00:48:16.890 Yeah. 00:48:17.906 --> 00:48:23.232 I did look it up. 2371 is a well-known year in Star Trek. So we got a few things. 00:48:23.232 --> 00:48:25.650 Well, third season DS9 begins then. 00:48:26.312 --> 00:48:30.062 It's also the year USS Voyager launched on its ill-fated mission. 00:48:31.042 --> 00:48:35.682 And it's Star Trek Generations is set in that year when Captain Kirk meets Captain Picard. 00:48:35.682 --> 00:48:39.024 That was such a great time for Star Trek. That was such a great time. 00:48:41.230 --> 00:48:42.445 Thank you, sir. Appreciate the boost. 00:48:42.445 --> 00:48:42.885 Thank you, E-Scott. 00:48:43.035 --> 00:48:43.232 Unicorn, 00:48:45.395 --> 00:48:48.718 1999 came in with 6,000 sats. 00:48:54.860 --> 00:48:59.565 At some points in open source and with some projects who had to sign off that 00:48:59.565 --> 00:49:04.827 you were the author of the code and had not used any source that was also not clean. 00:49:05.587 --> 00:49:11.515 But now with AI, that doesn't really matter. It seems the who owns AI code question 00:49:11.515 --> 00:49:13.232 is not completely solved. 00:49:13.761 --> 00:49:15.369 Wait, why is that? Why is that? 00:49:15.990 --> 00:49:20.125 Well, there's still active legal debates around it as one. So, 00:49:20.125 --> 00:49:23.765 like, for instance, some courts have said that pure, like, if all you did was 00:49:23.765 --> 00:49:26.247 one-shot code, it can't be copyrighted at all. 00:49:27.883 --> 00:49:32.919 So I think the question of, you know, exactly the law has not caught up with 00:49:32.919 --> 00:49:35.199 the current tool set is sort of one aspect of it. 00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:39.519 Like we have some cases that mostly dealt with code in the era of browser tabs 00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:43.129 and nothing that's really dealt with the case of you're doing project management 00:49:43.129 --> 00:49:46.769 on an agentic harness and then you edited some parts of it or you reviewed it. 00:49:47.648 --> 00:49:50.979 So I think that's where some camps concerns are coming from, 00:49:50.979 --> 00:49:53.119 just in that it is still an open legal question. 00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:57.679 But it seems like if my self-driving car runs into Brent and smashes his van 00:49:57.679 --> 00:49:59.972 up, I'm legally responsible for that. 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:02.596 It doesn't matter if the AI degenerated that. 00:50:03.182 --> 00:50:08.209 Yeah, but that's a legal sort of – it's a separate set of law essentially, 00:50:08.209 --> 00:50:12.949 right? Like this was a judge making a case about if you could copyright pure AI-generated content. 00:50:13.169 --> 00:50:13.749 Oh, copyright, copyright. 00:50:13.749 --> 00:50:16.709 Yes. So like when you make something – not everything is copyrightable, 00:50:16.709 --> 00:50:20.516 but if it is a copyrightable expression, not just the idea but the expression, 00:50:21.869 --> 00:50:23.149 you get to sign copyright. 00:50:23.149 --> 00:50:26.229 to it that's how you add a license to your code files but they're saying if 00:50:26.229 --> 00:50:30.969 all you did was prompt a single ai to generate code that cannot currently be. 00:50:30.969 --> 00:50:36.639 Copyrighted i just think in the context of most most not all but most free software 00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:39.799 project this is really ant humping because who's responsible is the person who 00:50:39.799 --> 00:50:41.894 submits it and this is sort of full stop, 00:50:42.922 --> 00:50:46.029 i mean this anything else is just sort of ant humping now when you're working 00:50:46.029 --> 00:50:49.389 on a giant international project maybe that's really where things matter like 00:50:49.389 --> 00:50:51.129 that i think but that's my opinion. 00:50:51.129 --> 00:50:55.869 There were some explorations of laws in europe though that recently suggested 00:50:55.869 --> 00:51:01.260 that open source software might be responsible if people use it in certain contexts so, 00:51:02.212 --> 00:51:07.359 that's an interesting angle unicorn 99 here wants to clarify though i'm not 00:51:07.359 --> 00:51:10.500 anti-ai i'm anti-corporate exploitation. 00:51:10.786 --> 00:51:14.999 Boy sure the corporate ai aspect is so obnoxious so tiring i agree with you 00:51:14.999 --> 00:51:19.129 there it's the worst about it it's the worst thing about it and yet We need 00:51:19.129 --> 00:51:22.065 their precious GPUs, at least for now. 00:51:22.604 --> 00:51:26.405 Hey, Mr. Mayhem's back with 16,000 Satoshis. 00:51:28.622 --> 00:51:31.606 Look at that. Boost the roost, boost the roost, boost the roost. 00:51:31.734 --> 00:51:34.770 Something broke. It's a fill-in boost. Well, boost the roost indeed. Thank you. 00:51:36.424 --> 00:51:42.189 Appreciate that. And that is all of the paid boosts, but we do have some member 00:51:42.189 --> 00:51:43.909 boosts. Would you like to kick that off, Wes? 00:51:44.329 --> 00:51:46.374 Oh, you know how I love a good member boost. 00:51:47.036 --> 00:51:47.789 Hey, Unicorn's back. 00:51:47.789 --> 00:51:51.669 Oh, Unicorn1999 comes in with a member boost. 00:51:51.669 --> 00:51:52.069 Hey! 00:51:53.845 --> 00:51:57.099 I think tech people bringing up the copyright issue is not only crap, 00:51:57.099 --> 00:52:00.422 but partially how copyright is always used by corporations against us users. 00:52:00.869 --> 00:52:03.979 Like, it was okay back in the day for ISPs to host Usenet servers full of TV 00:52:03.979 --> 00:52:06.149 shows, but not okay for people to download and share. 00:52:08.489 --> 00:52:11.719 We don't talk about Usenet. We don't talk about Usenet. Yeah, 00:52:11.719 --> 00:52:15.399 no, I think it's like we're talking about two different things here, Unicorn. 00:52:16.043 --> 00:52:19.329 Because everything you just said I completely agree with. I just think there's 00:52:19.329 --> 00:52:23.699 hypocrisy in folks that, you know, have their RAR stack set up or whatever, 00:52:23.699 --> 00:52:28.689 or rip DVDs, then now concerned that LLMs are ripping content, 00:52:28.689 --> 00:52:30.346 right? There's just hypocrisy in that. 00:52:30.758 --> 00:52:34.426 But yeah, using copyright as a kludge is never good. 00:52:34.746 --> 00:52:39.269 There's also sort of like, we're seeing projects now, which is perhaps reasonable 00:52:39.269 --> 00:52:40.669 in that they are much more established, 00:52:41.271 --> 00:52:44.510 projects, but we see projects now that are having concerns over copyright questions 00:52:44.945 --> 00:52:48.609 that maybe were different than how Linux was treated and being actively developed 00:52:48.609 --> 00:52:51.749 in the ESCO era, where there were similar sort of copyright questions. 00:52:51.749 --> 00:52:55.319 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. 00:52:55.319 --> 00:52:57.406 Mm-hmm. 00:52:57.406 --> 00:53:02.269 All right, well, Greg, the lawyer's here with a memboost. Welcome back to the 00:53:02.269 --> 00:53:05.469 States. I hope the trip was flock-free. You know, I'm not sure. 00:53:06.009 --> 00:53:07.178 I doubt it, though. I doubt it. 00:53:08.169 --> 00:53:11.209 He says, I got fed up with Dario's nonsense and switched back to Codex. 00:53:11.209 --> 00:53:13.668 I figure their model is better because they broke out first. 00:53:16.149 --> 00:53:21.458 The weird feeling when switching VC-funded frontier models is how I fight in part for open source. 00:53:22.171 --> 00:53:24.929 Yeah, although if it makes you feel better, the Codex is open source. 00:53:25.449 --> 00:53:27.756 The backend isn't, but the Codex client is open source. 00:53:28.383 --> 00:53:29.956 Amadeus member boosts in. 00:53:32.726 --> 00:53:37.915 My workflow of cleaning up my own drives is using a great Rust tool called Dust. 00:53:38.625 --> 00:53:42.605 Find out what takes up space, old hugging face models, old Proton versions from 00:53:42.605 --> 00:53:44.395 Steam, Podman containers, et cetera. 00:53:44.755 --> 00:53:48.095 Works great, and I'm using it on every machine I control or manage. 00:53:48.615 --> 00:53:49.755 The Podman containers makes me chocolate. 00:53:50.595 --> 00:53:54.035 Thank you for concluding the very realistic selection of actual disk usage. 00:53:54.035 --> 00:53:55.336 Yeah, yeah, really, yeah. 00:53:56.451 --> 00:53:59.225 And Dust is a Apache 2 license. 00:53:59.225 --> 00:54:01.535 Good to see. Nice little extra pick there. 00:54:01.535 --> 00:54:05.402 We've got Joshua here with a free members boost. 00:54:07.387 --> 00:54:11.275 I'm a software engineer and always have ideas for side projects, 00:54:11.275 --> 00:54:13.796 but no time to actually make the most of them. 00:54:14.446 --> 00:54:19.085 Cloud Code has really changed that, though, but I worry about making my new 00:54:19.085 --> 00:54:23.545 projects open source because of public backlash, since they're all written with 00:54:23.545 --> 00:54:26.020 AI. Do you have any advice? 00:54:26.728 --> 00:54:32.025 I would bet Joshua that you would actually find the reverse problem is going 00:54:32.025 --> 00:54:35.065 to be your issue is that if you open source it and it's popular, 00:54:35.065 --> 00:54:38.605 you're going to have a lot of people that are contributing back with AI assistant code development. 00:54:38.930 --> 00:54:41.455 You're going to have a lot more of that than your people that drive by your 00:54:41.455 --> 00:54:42.599 repo and get upset at you. 00:54:42.762 --> 00:54:45.745 Yeah. Like I think it would be different. Like if you if you vibe something 00:54:45.745 --> 00:54:49.655 up and go share it on three subreddits at once. And like there's there are versions 00:54:49.655 --> 00:54:51.995 of that where you can get yourself in trouble. But if all you're doing is sort 00:54:51.995 --> 00:54:55.852 of putting it out there, I don't think you'll receive too much backlash. 00:54:56.252 --> 00:54:58.235 Anonymous comes in with a member boost. 00:55:01.013 --> 00:55:04.595 It never occurred to me that a nutcase might not only have a thousand tabs open, 00:55:04.595 --> 00:55:08.449 but that nutcase might also have them scattered across dozen of windows. 00:55:08.756 --> 00:55:10.771 Absolute madness! 00:55:18.244 --> 00:55:19.774 I know, I know. 00:55:19.774 --> 00:55:23.214 Are we, it says anonymous, but I don't know. I kind of smell the PJ booze. 00:55:27.174 --> 00:55:31.314 I don't think I've been called a nutcase before and certainly not for my tab habits. 00:55:31.654 --> 00:55:33.374 Well, I came from the whole squirrel thing. 00:55:33.374 --> 00:55:36.524 Yeah, as a squirrel father, I think you would put yourself in the nutcase category. 00:55:36.524 --> 00:55:40.170 Yeah, that's fair. That's actually kind of a compliment. Thank you, anonymous. 00:55:40.833 --> 00:55:43.630 Well, SensorSmile comes in with our last member boost. 00:55:49.331 --> 00:55:53.737 I'm finally ready to start playing with AI. However, I'm not sure where to start. 00:55:54.125 --> 00:55:55.524 I have a local Quen model up with 00:55:55.524 --> 00:55:59.454 Lama CPP. The built-in chat interface is boring. How do I code with this? 00:55:59.794 --> 00:56:04.284 Hermes? How do you do long-running agent? A beginner's guide for the tech experienced. 00:56:04.284 --> 00:56:07.964 This is SeniorSmile. You're like, you're starting with Bitcoin by installing 00:56:07.964 --> 00:56:10.640 a node before you've acquired sats. 00:56:11.534 --> 00:56:14.914 I mean, not necessarily a bad way to go to truly learn from the ground up, but, 00:56:16.456 --> 00:56:21.953 you might You might just spend a month with OpenCode and OpenCode Go subscription, 00:56:22.452 --> 00:56:25.814 and learn that because what they're going to have for you is agents that are, 00:56:25.814 --> 00:56:27.214 A, optimized for coding, B, 00:56:27.949 --> 00:56:29.708 work right out of the box with tool calls. 00:56:30.062 --> 00:56:33.114 And when you're going to do your own Quinn and your Lama CPP, 00:56:33.114 --> 00:56:36.314 I love it, but you're going to need to use a front-end interface. 00:56:36.314 --> 00:56:38.564 You're going to have to pick one that understands all that stuff, 00:56:38.564 --> 00:56:42.044 that knows how to work with that stuff. And that, when you're just getting into 00:56:42.044 --> 00:56:44.774 all of this, feels like a little extra complexity before you've even really 00:56:44.774 --> 00:56:46.212 figured out what they can even do for you. 00:56:46.601 --> 00:56:50.544 And they could also help like if you do get open code going or whatever. 00:56:50.544 --> 00:56:51.544 Then you can have it set it up for. 00:56:51.544 --> 00:56:57.674 You exactly you can have open code talk to Lama CPP no problem but that's just 00:56:57.674 --> 00:57:00.294 more stuff you kind of get in that isn't actually playing with AI but you can 00:57:00.294 --> 00:57:03.654 have the AI sort of bridge the gap and then try out both local and cloud hosted. 00:57:03.654 --> 00:57:07.394 Not too bad there Westpain alright thank you everybody who supported this episode 00:57:07.394 --> 00:57:12.504 with a boost we had 18 of you stream sats as you listened along and collectively 00:57:12.504 --> 00:57:16.727 you all stacked 17,625 Satoshis for the show. 00:57:19.775 --> 00:57:25.491 And you bring it all together with everybody who boosted. We stacked a humble 00:57:25.491 --> 00:57:30.567 but very grateful 198,570 Satoshis. 00:57:30.845 --> 00:57:34.041 Not the best hourly rate when you split it four ways, as we do, 00:57:34.041 --> 00:57:38.119 or five ways, really. I think it was like five in there, but we still appreciate the support. 00:57:38.252 --> 00:57:41.625 It is a lean season. When you hear the dynamic ads, you know we're hurting. 00:57:42.136 --> 00:57:43.061 But we really appreciate the 00:57:43.061 --> 00:57:46.072 members and the boost. It's also one of our favorite segments on the show. 00:57:46.333 --> 00:57:50.153 It's stuff we never really plan to talk about, but often is great conversation. 00:57:50.420 --> 00:57:55.681 And you can send a boost by going to boost.jupyterbroadcasting.com or jupyterbroadcasting.com 00:57:55.681 --> 00:57:59.162 slash membership or linuxunplugged.com slash membership to be a member. 00:57:59.655 --> 00:58:02.181 That's it from us for the boost. Thank you, everybody who supported us. 00:58:27.013 --> 00:58:30.453 And we got a couple of pics before we get out of here. This is one I've been 00:58:30.453 --> 00:58:34.693 sitting on for a while because I thought maybe we would use it for our Texas trip. 00:58:35.604 --> 00:58:39.733 But I think I'd like to put it out there and get a sense if the audience likes 00:58:39.733 --> 00:58:42.344 it and if anybody deploys it before we use it. 00:58:42.617 --> 00:58:45.233 But I could see this being very useful for us in the future. 00:58:45.233 --> 00:58:47.058 It's called Trek. I already like the name. 00:58:47.876 --> 00:58:51.963 It's a self-hostable travel trip planner with real-time collab features, 00:58:52.483 --> 00:58:57.043 interactive maps, progressive web support, single sign-on, planning budgets, 00:58:57.043 --> 00:58:59.190 packing lists, and more. 00:58:59.579 --> 00:59:04.083 I mean, this thing, and it looks good. It looks like a top-grade commercial 00:59:04.083 --> 00:59:05.483 application that you can self-host. 00:59:05.912 --> 00:59:11.044 And then you can work with your friends, your family, whatever it might be, together to plan a trip. 00:59:11.160 --> 00:59:14.346 And, like, you know, make your big plans, put your budgets in there, 00:59:14.671 --> 00:59:17.493 get it all on a calendar. You can subscribe to the calendars. 00:59:17.493 --> 00:59:18.340 Like, you know what I'm saying? 00:59:18.635 --> 00:59:21.433 Like, this is a real tool with interactive maps and stuff like that. 00:59:21.433 --> 00:59:23.715 So you get a journal for every trip. 00:59:24.040 --> 00:59:27.494 You get real-time collaborative planning. You see it all on a map. 00:59:27.696 --> 00:59:29.322 It has lists and categories. 00:59:29.635 --> 00:59:32.063 It has – you can put in, like, we're going to go on a vacation. 00:59:32.063 --> 00:59:35.284 You can have it pre-visualize that. You can track costs per person. 00:59:35.650 --> 00:59:41.213 You can drag things around and drop them on the calendar. And Wes, it's got an API. 00:59:41.213 --> 00:59:43.416 Ooh, okay. Okay. 00:59:44.868 --> 00:59:46.237 This looks really nice. 00:59:46.976 --> 00:59:48.866 Yeah, I'm pretty excited about it. Like I said, I haven't had a chance to try 00:59:48.866 --> 00:59:51.416 it myself, but I think somebody out there in the audience might be willing to 00:59:51.416 --> 00:59:52.316 give it a go and let us know. 00:59:52.693 --> 00:59:57.383 It is AGPL3.0, and it is primarily TypeScript. 00:59:58.121 --> 01:00:03.136 It's got a Docker Compose setup, Kubernetes if that's your style. Yeah, okay. 01:00:03.136 --> 01:00:04.286 Yeah, yeah. 01:00:04.424 --> 01:00:07.976 The real-time collab part sounds quite interesting. We could just be on a call, 01:00:07.976 --> 01:00:10.031 workshopping a trip, trying things out. 01:00:10.739 --> 01:00:13.206 Teasing Brent about how long he has to drive, because we'll just put it right 01:00:13.206 --> 01:00:14.076 there on the map in front of him. 01:00:14.376 --> 01:00:14.576 Right. 01:00:15.436 --> 01:00:20.156 It'll probably help me with that part. One of the big questions I have is, will it nix? 01:00:21.292 --> 01:00:24.207 Well, of course. It does also have a Docker if you just want to go that way. 01:00:24.723 --> 01:00:29.216 But from that, you could get to a declarative Podman configuration and about 01:00:29.216 --> 01:00:30.936 two licks and two shakes of a lamp's tail. 01:00:31.256 --> 01:00:33.816 Oh, it includes built-in MCP as well as an API. Great. 01:00:35.236 --> 01:00:38.556 I mean, you could see how maybe our agents use this to have a plan and they 01:00:38.556 --> 01:00:39.396 just tell us when they're done. 01:00:40.056 --> 01:00:43.656 All right, Brentley, you got a little sneaky pick. I believe that you wanted 01:00:43.656 --> 01:00:46.120 to pull forward, as they said. 01:00:46.544 --> 01:00:52.860 I'm representing this sneaky pick as producer Jeff actually brought this up to me and he said, Brent. 01:00:53.789 --> 01:00:56.964 This is perfect for me and therefore probably perfect for you. 01:00:57.092 --> 01:01:01.794 It's a to-do app that is called C'est Fait, which is French, 01:01:01.794 --> 01:01:06.879 but I'm going to declare that everybody else can probably just say C-Fit. 01:01:07.094 --> 01:01:08.194 Oh, yeah. I would have sold it. 01:01:08.194 --> 01:01:09.182 You tell me what you should call it. 01:01:09.339 --> 01:01:10.454 Can we get the French one more time? 01:01:10.454 --> 01:01:11.731 I would have said C'est Fait. 01:01:12.594 --> 01:01:13.154 Or C'est Fait. 01:01:13.154 --> 01:01:16.084 C'est Fait. I know, because it's got a cat. So I would have gone with cat, 01:01:16.880 --> 01:01:18.064 you know, because it has a cat logo. 01:01:18.064 --> 01:01:21.924 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that works too. A silent F, right? In French, 01:01:21.924 --> 01:01:24.174 that really means it's done, which I think it's kind of clever. 01:01:24.174 --> 01:01:25.576 Ah, I gotcha. Okay. 01:01:26.121 --> 01:01:30.044 But it's built for people who, quote, want keyboard-centric efficiency, 01:01:30.044 --> 01:01:33.494 which I have been looking for forever. Jeff, you know me so well. 01:01:33.981 --> 01:01:37.514 It looks like you can use it comfortably from the command line via TUI. 01:01:37.994 --> 01:01:43.684 You can use a desktop GUI if you want or on the go with a native Android app. 01:01:43.684 --> 01:01:45.266 Ain't no Electron in here. 01:01:46.061 --> 01:01:49.044 It's got a TUI and a graphical app and an Android app. 01:01:49.044 --> 01:01:50.096 This is impressive. 01:01:50.974 --> 01:01:53.274 I don't know how none of us found this It's also. 01:01:53.594 --> 01:01:56.864 It's apparently available in FlatHub already, FreeBSD There's obviously, 01:01:56.864 --> 01:02:00.714 it's in FDroid and Google Play There's Windows releases maybe There's Mac OS 01:02:00.714 --> 01:02:03.044 stuff, the only thing I'm not seeing is Nix really, but we can. 01:02:03.044 --> 01:02:08.671 Get that done As a long time, and slightly ashamed Todoist user This, 01:02:09.002 --> 01:02:13.814 this cooks I think this is blowing Todoist away Even at the UI layer. 01:02:14.226 --> 01:02:17.854 To find shortcuts on the fly Wow Yeah. 01:02:17.854 --> 01:02:22.417 It's nice, there's a little detail here It's 69.5% rust. 01:02:23.351 --> 01:02:24.396 All right. You know what? 01:02:24.884 --> 01:02:25.331 Does that count? 01:02:26.203 --> 01:02:30.308 We'll give it to it. It's over 50%. It's over 50%. Everyday usage. 01:02:30.308 --> 01:02:32.350 Press the question mark and navigate to the help tab. 01:02:32.855 --> 01:02:35.108 Configurations in the CLI-2E under the hood. 01:02:35.968 --> 01:02:39.026 All right. So, PJ, you've been trying this? Like, what's the dealio? What do you think? 01:02:39.676 --> 01:02:43.758 It really did catch my eye. I found it in F-Droid just going to do some updates, 01:02:43.758 --> 01:02:44.728 and it was right there on the front. 01:02:46.050 --> 01:02:51.248 Yeah. I really do like it. I like that the Linux desktop app and the phone app, 01:02:51.248 --> 01:02:56.197 they look very similar. They're not these giant, there's no giant changes between the two. 01:02:56.313 --> 01:02:56.615 Right. 01:02:57.428 --> 01:03:01.008 So you don't need to necessarily learn all the key bindings because I never 01:03:01.008 --> 01:03:02.635 will remember them anyways. 01:03:03.122 --> 01:03:07.358 And I really like the subtasks. You can tree out things. I dream of an idea 01:03:07.358 --> 01:03:09.065 of having dependency tasks. 01:03:09.367 --> 01:03:12.988 This ain't quite that, but the subtasks kind of get you there. So I've been using it. 01:03:12.988 --> 01:03:15.778 So it's like a, it's like subtasks isn't quite a project, but you can have a 01:03:15.778 --> 01:03:18.353 task with a bunch of things you got to do to complete it. 01:03:19.236 --> 01:03:22.538 Yeah, exactly. So I have, I'm kind of using it for goals. 01:03:22.538 --> 01:03:25.998 Like I have, you know, truck repairs, right. And then a bunch of subtasks under 01:03:25.998 --> 01:03:28.788 that of the different things I want to do for my truck, you know, 01:03:28.788 --> 01:03:32.238 house repairs or home things I want to do. And I can have a bunch of subtasks 01:03:32.238 --> 01:03:34.422 for that. And it's been working out pretty well for that. I like that a lot. 01:03:34.793 --> 01:03:38.323 Just a dedicated place. I can put the things I want to get done or, 01:03:38.671 --> 01:03:41.488 oh, I've got 15 minutes to kill. What kind of thing can I do? 01:03:41.488 --> 01:03:44.527 Well, here's a whole list of things I want to try. I want to do. 01:03:44.760 --> 01:03:45.018 Right. 01:03:45.018 --> 01:03:46.270 And I'll forget about them otherwise. 01:03:47.208 --> 01:03:49.370 How is the self-hosting side set up the server side? 01:03:50.634 --> 01:03:52.957 I'm using NextCloud to sync everything up. 01:03:53.211 --> 01:03:57.021 Oh, so you don't have to run a backend in particular? You could just have it sync? 01:03:57.021 --> 01:03:59.266 Whatever CalDev server you want to use, yeah. 01:03:59.901 --> 01:04:07.851 Oh, okay. I see. I see. So they include Radical, a self-hosted lightweight feature 01:04:07.851 --> 01:04:11.497 complete thing you can use, or, yeah, NextCloud. Huh. 01:04:12.610 --> 01:04:17.001 This is great, Jeff. Nice find. I'm glad Brent, I'm glad he pulled it forward. 01:04:17.641 --> 01:04:18.050 Mm-hmm. 01:04:19.366 --> 01:04:22.572 I may give this a try afterwards. Especially if I could store it, 01:04:22.740 --> 01:04:25.103 of course, I don't know. If I could store it in something, we'll see. 01:04:25.470 --> 01:04:27.801 Yeah, especially if we can compose it with a few other things. 01:04:27.801 --> 01:04:31.681 The fact that it's got the Android layer solved, there's a lot of promise. 01:04:31.681 --> 01:04:35.411 There's a lot I like about it. And the client's in Flathub, which is nice. 01:04:35.411 --> 01:04:36.973 And the Android version's in F-Droid. 01:04:37.166 --> 01:04:42.675 Which is nice. Okay, so PJ's now game correspondent, right? And I guess he's also like a... 01:04:42.872 --> 01:04:43.585 Productivity. 01:04:43.830 --> 01:04:45.021 Yeah, productivity expert. 01:04:46.240 --> 01:04:50.061 Productivity John. PJ still works for that. Productivity John. 01:04:50.841 --> 01:04:52.001 Lifestyle expert. 01:04:52.001 --> 01:04:57.494 Yeah. And a few other things. Solar, long hair, floor showers. 01:04:57.977 --> 01:04:59.741 Oh, floor showers. He's got that down. 01:04:59.741 --> 01:05:01.161 He does have the floor showers down. 01:05:01.161 --> 01:05:03.879 Also our on-site Californian expert. 01:05:04.354 --> 01:05:07.841 It's true. If you want to know anything about California, you just ask PJ. All right. 01:05:07.841 --> 01:05:12.921 Well, we'll have links to everything we talked about at linuxunplugged.com slash 678. 01:05:12.921 --> 01:05:16.348 We're slowly working our way to 700, so we hope you stick with us and join us 01:05:16.666 --> 01:05:20.401 live. You can make it a Tuesday on a Sunday, 10 a.m. Pacific, 01:05:20.401 --> 01:05:22.872 1 p.m. Eastern, over at jblive.tv. 01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:25.811 I say before we go, we tell people some pro tips. We should always, 01:05:25.811 --> 01:05:27.504 maybe we should start the show with these. 01:05:28.481 --> 01:05:30.501 Instead of burying it all the way at the absolute end of the show? 01:05:30.501 --> 01:05:30.831 Right. 01:05:30.831 --> 01:05:34.006 We should, like, do a reverse show sometime. We should start from the bottom. 01:05:35.306 --> 01:05:37.686 Flip the duck. Surely a bot could flip the duck. 01:05:38.573 --> 01:05:40.013 We should flip the show. 01:05:40.473 --> 01:05:41.413 All right, next week. 01:05:41.593 --> 01:05:44.983 We should think about that. That could be a lot of fun. Don't you think? 01:05:44.983 --> 01:05:45.513 Probably. 01:05:45.513 --> 01:05:45.941 Oh, yeah. 01:05:46.103 --> 01:05:48.443 At least tell us what we like and don't like about doing it. 01:05:48.443 --> 01:05:51.653 How do you handle the intro and the outro? Do you do the outro at the beginning? 01:05:51.653 --> 01:05:54.993 Because that would really screw with new folks. Like, you lose them immediately. 01:05:54.993 --> 01:05:57.363 Oh, go for it. Come on. What's one episode? 01:05:57.363 --> 01:06:00.702 I don't know. I think if we could, the intro is the only thing. 01:06:00.858 --> 01:06:05.203 We need some input on that, but I would totally be down for a reverso episode. That could be fun. 01:06:05.203 --> 01:06:09.063 No, it works perfectly. You start and you say, about the same bat time, 01:06:09.063 --> 01:06:13.183 same bat channel, you know, make it a Linux on a Tuesday, on a Sunday, and join us Sunday. 01:06:13.183 --> 01:06:14.802 But then we play the outro music in what? 01:06:16.369 --> 01:06:17.503 No, it starts with the outro music. 01:06:17.503 --> 01:06:18.093 We'll figure it out. 01:06:20.433 --> 01:06:22.753 I don't think we will. And then you intro the show at the end. 01:06:22.753 --> 01:06:23.753 I think we need help. 01:06:24.073 --> 01:06:25.213 Drew will save us. 01:06:25.573 --> 01:06:28.013 Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. All right. Okay, very good. 01:06:28.013 --> 01:06:31.673 But in the meantime, JSON. It's in the cloud and in the feed. 01:06:31.673 --> 01:06:37.083 We put JSON in our XML, but then we also put like text in there in the form of a VTT. 01:06:37.083 --> 01:06:38.498 That's true. So you can have it either way. 01:06:38.643 --> 01:06:43.333 And we put in a link. It's not the whole MP4 but there's a link to an MP4 embedded within. 01:06:43.333 --> 01:06:46.783 Yeah. So you could watch it in video version and you may be surprised there's 01:06:46.783 --> 01:06:50.693 visuals but because we're such effing pros you can just listen to the audio 01:06:50.693 --> 01:06:53.823 version and it never detracts from that to such a degree you wouldn't even know 01:06:53.823 --> 01:06:56.911 there's a video version. How about that? Ha! 01:06:57.914 --> 01:07:01.943 So yeah, you can find that MP4 in the feed as well and our Mumble Room is always 01:07:01.943 --> 01:07:05.583 going every single Sunday. So do join us live. It's fun. It's unique. 01:07:05.583 --> 01:07:06.854 And not a lot of podcasts do it. 01:07:11.540 --> 01:07:14.419 And, of course, links to everything we talked about at our website, 01:07:14.419 --> 01:07:17.969 linuxunplugged.com. And the back catalog and all the other great shows over 01:07:17.969 --> 01:07:20.989 at jupiterbroadcasting.com. As long as you want to check it out, 01:07:20.989 --> 01:07:24.044 you might as well go to the calendar. It's over there in a contact page as well. 01:07:25.152 --> 01:07:28.359 Would you believe it? And last but not least, you can get a message and support 01:07:28.359 --> 01:07:32.309 the show at boost.jupiterbroadcasting.com. And you members, don't you forget 01:07:32.309 --> 01:07:36.623 you get a free boost every single episode because we appreciate you so much. 01:07:36.826 --> 01:07:38.626 In fact, we appreciate you just for listening. 01:07:38.852 --> 01:07:42.521 Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of your Unplugged program. 01:07:42.730 --> 01:07:43.560 And you know what we're going to do? 01:07:44.071 --> 01:07:46.809 We're going to work on a show right after this, get cooking on another one, 01:07:46.809 --> 01:07:50.828 and we're going to see you right back here next Tuesday, as in Sunday.