WEBVTT 00:00:11.413 --> 00:00:15.901 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:15.901 --> 00:00:16.721 My name is Wes. 00:00:16.721 --> 00:00:17.624 And my name is Brent. 00:00:18.292 --> 00:00:22.301 Hello, gentlemen. Coming up on the show today, we're digging into those weird 00:00:22.301 --> 00:00:26.461 little desktop VMs that are hiding behind all of these new strange consumer 00:00:26.461 --> 00:00:28.581 bot platforms, and we'll see 00:00:29.001 --> 00:00:32.380 what we can do with them that they probably don't want us to do with them. 00:00:32.676 --> 00:00:35.191 Then we'll round out the show with some great boosts, some great picks, 00:00:35.191 --> 00:00:38.644 some great feedback, and a lot more. So before we get to any of that, 00:00:38.905 --> 00:00:42.156 let's say time appropes to our virtual lug. Hello, Mumble Room. 00:00:43.420 --> 00:00:43.985 Hey, 00:00:46.706 --> 00:00:47.955 Chris. Hey, Wes. Hello. Hi. Hello. 00:00:48.285 --> 00:00:48.995 Strong. 00:00:48.995 --> 00:00:49.795 Yeah, it's very good. 00:00:49.845 --> 00:00:51.035 We're going to need a bigger room. 00:00:51.065 --> 00:00:53.225 Hello. Oh, and the quiet listening is getting a little bigger, 00:00:53.225 --> 00:00:56.760 too. Hello. And of course, shout out to everybody watching live, 00:00:57.538 --> 00:00:58.795 making it a Tuesday on a Sunday. 00:00:58.795 --> 00:00:59.539 Makes it special. 00:00:59.969 --> 00:01:02.685 Also, good morning to our friends over at Define's Networking. 00:01:02.685 --> 00:01:06.679 Go to define.net slash unplugged and meet Manage Nebula from Define Networking. 00:01:07.074 --> 00:01:09.405 A decentralized VPN. A VPN? 00:01:09.405 --> 00:01:09.762 No. 00:01:10.345 --> 00:01:14.565 We should call it a DPN. a decentralized VPN built on the open-source Nebula 00:01:14.565 --> 00:01:16.641 platform that we love and use ourselves. 00:01:17.064 --> 00:01:21.055 And Nebula was originally created to securely connect Slack's global infrastructure. 00:01:21.055 --> 00:01:27.647 So it's been designed from day one for serious scale, serious performance, and serious security. 00:01:28.117 --> 00:01:31.565 And you get strong encryption. You get a decentralized architecture with no 00:01:31.925 --> 00:01:34.659 central traffic bottleneck or big tech login plane. 00:01:35.066 --> 00:01:37.755 And you get the option to self-host your own lighthouse. That way you are in 00:01:37.755 --> 00:01:40.087 full control of discovery, names, and all of that. 00:01:40.575 --> 00:01:43.465 So if you're just connecting your home lab or a global enterprise, 00:01:43.465 --> 00:01:47.123 you've got to check it out. Nebula gives you privacy, resilience, and speed. 00:01:47.901 --> 00:01:51.830 Resources are just like unbelievable what Nebula needs. Sips it. Sips it. 00:01:52.057 --> 00:01:53.835 If you're on a limited connection, you're going to really love that. 00:01:53.835 --> 00:01:55.929 You've got CPU constraints. You're really going to love it. 00:01:56.613 --> 00:01:58.702 Who doesn't want something that uses less resources anyways? 00:01:59.056 --> 00:02:02.180 See what I'm saying. Try it for free. 100 hosts. No credit card required. 00:02:02.609 --> 00:02:07.255 Go to defined.net slash unplugged. It's defined.net slash unplugged. 00:02:07.255 --> 00:02:10.525 Big thank you to Defined for sponsoring the Unplugged program. 00:02:10.525 --> 00:02:14.435 And thank you for everybody who supports the show by supporting our sponsor. 00:02:14.435 --> 00:02:16.485 You're kind of, you know, second-order sponsor in there. 00:02:16.485 --> 00:02:19.205 I feel like we should also thank them for continuing to make our networks work so well. 00:02:19.205 --> 00:02:20.442 Yeah, there's that too. 00:02:22.172 --> 00:02:25.353 Well, we have some news for you all. We have some news. 00:02:25.661 --> 00:02:33.004 A brand new Clanker Therapy 2, what we have been building, is out on YouTube and for audio. 00:02:33.556 --> 00:02:37.158 And, of course, there's a bootleg version for our members to get the complete 00:02:37.158 --> 00:02:41.317 stream. That'll all be linked in our show notes. Been getting pretty good feedback so far. 00:02:41.485 --> 00:02:44.018 Yeah, right. We put it in the extra show and then, right, yeah, 00:02:44.018 --> 00:02:46.826 your membership, you can go to a page. We'll have more. 00:02:47.017 --> 00:02:47.358 Yes. 00:02:47.658 --> 00:02:50.548 And stay tuned. Hopefully something we'll be doing more often. 00:02:50.548 --> 00:02:55.088 Yes. Yes, more Clanker Therapies. What we've been doing is using meetup.com 00:02:55.088 --> 00:03:00.878 slash jupyterbroadcasting to announce them and then just streaming them at jblive.tv. 00:03:00.878 --> 00:03:03.538 You don't need a Meetup account to actually watch the stream, 00:03:03.538 --> 00:03:05.088 but we've been kind of organizing. 00:03:05.088 --> 00:03:06.845 Just a single place for details for now. 00:03:07.425 --> 00:03:12.438 And if you watch this week's Clanker Therapy, you will get a bit of the story 00:03:12.438 --> 00:03:16.978 behind something we're announcing today, a brand new resource for our community 00:03:16.978 --> 00:03:18.356 that we're very excited about. 00:03:18.792 --> 00:03:24.338 and I want you to go to uplink.jupiterbroadcasting.com where we now have a two-minute 00:03:24.338 --> 00:03:30.738 voice note that you can leave us all using built-in in-browser technology and it will send us a note. 00:03:31.011 --> 00:03:35.585 It lets you record very briefly so you can just allow your audio device, 00:03:35.928 --> 00:03:38.401 make a two-minute recording when you are done. 00:03:38.842 --> 00:03:42.435 You can play it back and double-check or delete it if you don't like it. 00:03:42.772 --> 00:03:45.468 And then you give us a name and tell us what you've been working on, 00:03:45.468 --> 00:03:46.969 what your project is you want to talk about. 00:03:47.422 --> 00:03:50.378 And if you wanted to go to the Clanker Therapy stream, you choose what are you 00:03:50.378 --> 00:03:53.684 building. If you wanted to go to Linux Unplugged, you choose Linux Unplugged. 00:03:54.514 --> 00:03:58.003 And optional contacted note, and you can send your update. 00:03:58.496 --> 00:04:02.408 And we will get a voice note from you. And we'll incorporate some of them into 00:04:02.408 --> 00:04:04.580 future episodes. We won't play all of them for airtime. 00:04:05.143 --> 00:04:09.568 But we'll play some future voice notes. So it's uplink.jupiterbroadcasting.com. 00:04:09.568 --> 00:04:12.806 We want to know about your home lab, your projects, things like that. 00:04:13.572 --> 00:04:16.118 and if you're a member and you 00:04:16.118 --> 00:04:20.666 sign them with memberful you get an extra minute you get an extra minute. 00:04:21.950 --> 00:04:26.277 So if you're a member, you get a three-minute voice note. And that is something 00:04:26.697 --> 00:04:30.227 which, if you're curious about the tech or how we built it or the story behind 00:04:30.227 --> 00:04:32.079 that, that's all in that clinker therapy, too. 00:04:33.136 --> 00:04:36.677 Uplink.jupiterbroadcasting.com. Tell us what you've been building, 00:04:36.677 --> 00:04:39.185 a Linux project, a Homelab project, a new desktop setup. 00:04:39.521 --> 00:04:42.023 We want to hear it. We built it. And it's just for you. 00:04:42.238 --> 00:04:45.506 And as producer Jeff says, voicemails are cool again. 00:04:45.640 --> 00:04:48.667 Yeah. And you don't even have to use the phone. You can use, 00:04:48.667 --> 00:04:50.824 like, if you've got a headset and you want to sound good. 00:04:51.009 --> 00:04:53.297 You don't have to go jump through a bunch of hoops. Just use that. 00:04:53.297 --> 00:04:55.667 Or use your phone with the browser. 00:04:55.667 --> 00:04:59.327 Or maybe you want to go through hoops and you could, maybe there's a way you 00:04:59.327 --> 00:05:03.207 could leave a voice. It probably works from the phone, Wes. You could probably do it from the phone. 00:05:03.207 --> 00:05:03.837 Oh, it definitely does. 00:05:04.006 --> 00:05:07.577 Yeah. Yeah. All right. So we thought, you know, we like to do something from 00:05:07.577 --> 00:05:10.237 time to time here on the show. So something a little different, 00:05:10.237 --> 00:05:12.063 something a little crazy. 00:05:13.996 --> 00:05:17.997 And we like to do a little live thing from time to time to see how it goes. 00:05:17.997 --> 00:05:21.787 And, you know, if you've been listening for a bit, we've been kind of toying 00:05:21.787 --> 00:05:24.447 behind the scenes with different ways to render our website. 00:05:24.447 --> 00:05:25.995 We played around with Zola. 00:05:26.471 --> 00:05:27.748 And that was interesting. 00:05:28.230 --> 00:05:35.451 But Wes and I have been wondering, could you build and deploy the entire website using Nix? 00:05:36.363 --> 00:05:40.457 Could Nix be the deployment method? And we wanted to see if it could do it and do it right. 00:05:41.088 --> 00:05:46.295 And we thought the best person to verify this would be our chief QA. 00:05:46.475 --> 00:05:47.288 Well, who else? 00:05:47.665 --> 00:05:55.757 Manager and producer brentley and so brentley we want you to go to nix.jupiterbroadcasting.com, 00:05:57.577 --> 00:06:02.751 and tell us how the website if it looks weird to you at all if anything seems out of place. 00:06:03.314 --> 00:06:04.037 Okay should i. 00:06:04.037 --> 00:06:04.937 Check my profile. 00:06:04.937 --> 00:06:07.459 Photo first is that uh how this is gonna go, 00:06:08.678 --> 00:06:14.674 Uh, okay. I see it looks kind of, you know, at first glance, like our website. 00:06:15.057 --> 00:06:17.554 That's good. Um, a couple of things might. 00:06:17.554 --> 00:06:21.924 You might notice new, if you go to community and matrix. Oh, 00:06:21.924 --> 00:06:23.344 community is dropped down. 00:06:24.024 --> 00:06:25.894 Oh, I think a lot of people are visiting it right now, Wes. 00:06:25.894 --> 00:06:29.464 Yeah. Is it running off Wes's website or laptop probably? 00:06:30.744 --> 00:06:31.224 It is not. 00:06:31.524 --> 00:06:33.174 No, it's not. No, it's not. 00:06:33.174 --> 00:06:37.324 Oh, there's a whole, yeah, there's a whole kind of index of all the chats that 00:06:37.324 --> 00:06:39.444 we use. MeshTastic podcast chatting. 00:06:39.484 --> 00:06:40.144 Yeah, it's a nice upcast. 00:06:40.144 --> 00:06:42.404 Right? Podcast chatting, that's awesome. That's very nice. 00:06:42.404 --> 00:06:43.310 It's a nice improvement. 00:06:43.618 --> 00:06:46.024 Hey, we're making it easier for everyone else. 00:06:46.104 --> 00:06:46.664 That's the goal. 00:06:46.664 --> 00:06:47.384 Yeah. 00:06:47.944 --> 00:06:49.345 Nothing stands out though, right? 00:06:51.084 --> 00:06:55.364 Not yet, although I see a couple buttons that I want to check out here. 00:06:55.364 --> 00:06:58.144 So, Boost, does Boost still? Oh. 00:06:58.544 --> 00:07:00.524 Even better now. Boost is even better now, the Boost button. 00:07:00.884 --> 00:07:01.224 Hey. Yeah. 00:07:02.184 --> 00:07:02.470 Yeah. 00:07:02.946 --> 00:07:06.586 Oh, that's sweet. That's what we should have put in the first place. 00:07:06.725 --> 00:07:11.927 So the boost leads to now boosting instead of just talking about boosting. That's way better. 00:07:13.404 --> 00:07:16.244 Okay, so when does this deploy or has it already been deployed? 00:07:17.331 --> 00:07:20.524 Well, that is on the public internet right now. Of course, it's at a subdomain. 00:07:21.704 --> 00:07:27.670 What if I told you that your original line of questioning was more on the money than you might know? 00:07:28.917 --> 00:07:35.558 It is not running on Wes's laptop, but it's not running on a VPS. 00:07:36.539 --> 00:07:38.280 It's running off your alarm clock. 00:07:39.418 --> 00:07:41.398 It's running off of Wes's Muse. 00:07:42.175 --> 00:07:42.923 Come on. 00:07:42.923 --> 00:07:50.443 The VM, Wes has gotten the VM in his Muse to install Nix and host our website. 00:07:50.443 --> 00:07:51.703 Wow. That's amazing. 00:07:51.703 --> 00:07:58.203 Yes. So this is what I want to talk about today is I don't recommend these bots 00:07:58.203 --> 00:08:01.963 and we'll get into the privacy stuff, but I realized something this week that 00:08:01.963 --> 00:08:03.664 I think has gone over everybody's head. 00:08:04.280 --> 00:08:10.603 And that is if these platforms start to break through, there are going to be 00:08:10.603 --> 00:08:13.248 millions and millions of Linux desktops deployed. 00:08:13.765 --> 00:08:15.883 And it does look like Muse is doing pretty well. 00:08:17.443 --> 00:08:20.923 It may already be in the millions of users. Every one of these commercial bot 00:08:20.923 --> 00:08:26.013 platforms, be it Muse, the GrokBot thing, or the OpenAI Dots, 00:08:26.013 --> 00:08:31.023 or some of the other ones, they all are coming with a full Linux VM. 00:08:31.290 --> 00:08:34.433 And some of them are actually really, really nice systems. 00:08:34.433 --> 00:08:40.483 Like the OpenAI Dot box is a pretty reasonable spec'd box with, 00:08:40.483 --> 00:08:44.673 I think, 12 gigs of RAM, was it, or something like that? And a modern Debian 00:08:44.673 --> 00:08:47.493 base and AMD Optron, something like that? 00:08:47.493 --> 00:08:49.163 I think, what, eight cores, too, maybe? 00:08:49.163 --> 00:08:53.981 Yeah. Yeah, and Muse is a little bit less, but it's still a full desktop VM. 00:08:54.103 --> 00:08:58.073 Yeah, you get eight gigs of RAM, 2X Xeon Platinums in there. 00:08:58.381 --> 00:08:59.463 And it's just a number of gigs. 00:08:59.463 --> 00:08:59.893 I think. 00:08:59.893 --> 00:09:04.713 It is just an implementation detail. However, the actions these agents are taking 00:09:04.713 --> 00:09:08.772 on behalf of their users are taking place in the Linux VM. 00:09:09.271 --> 00:09:12.403 So when they go out and browse the web, when they go look something up, 00:09:12.403 --> 00:09:17.148 when they ping an API, they're doing it, for the most part, from a Linux VM. 00:09:17.311 --> 00:09:19.128 from a Linux client. It's another Linux machine. 00:09:19.517 --> 00:09:23.307 And that's got to be good for Linux. And look at these numbers. 00:09:24.527 --> 00:09:28.142 Muse alone has reported half a million daily users within weeks, 00:09:28.142 --> 00:09:33.572 and the current numbers as of yesterday are 3 million people prompted at least once a week. 00:09:33.850 --> 00:09:38.232 One million people are prompting Muse every day, and more than 4 million people 00:09:38.232 --> 00:09:40.015 use it in some form each week. 00:09:41.212 --> 00:09:46.192 Every one of those 4 million users has a Linux desktop. GrokBot has hit 418,000 00:09:46.192 --> 00:09:49.604 weekly users as of September 14th, so that's a little old. 00:09:50.572 --> 00:09:55.322 and no word on OpenAI Dots yet because they're very new, but ChatGPT has 1.2 00:09:55.322 --> 00:09:56.901 billion active weekly users. 00:09:57.429 --> 00:10:02.961 Wow. This gets me thinking that our traditional ways of measuring Linux usage is very outdated now. 00:10:04.652 --> 00:10:07.234 I don't think we're even, I don't even think this has sunk in. 00:10:07.872 --> 00:10:09.300 So like take Muse, for example. 00:10:09.747 --> 00:10:12.972 Muse is an Ubuntu 24.05 box. 00:10:13.572 --> 00:10:15.482 It's got their own custom kernel seven. 00:10:16.289 --> 00:10:21.119 Yeah, the 6.8 if you just run with the stock distro, But clearly they're doing some special things. 00:10:21.502 --> 00:10:26.680 100 gigs of persistent storage. We'll get into some of the technical limitations here. 00:10:27.952 --> 00:10:31.552 And that's just Muse. And Muse is essentially free right now. 00:10:31.552 --> 00:10:36.772 It's essentially absolutely free. And if you use an invite link, 00:10:36.772 --> 00:10:39.225 you get a billion free tokens additional. 00:10:40.078 --> 00:10:42.695 GrokBot is using Firecracker Micro VM. 00:10:43.688 --> 00:10:49.832 And it's a little more expensive. but it's again a full Linux desktop and then 00:10:49.832 --> 00:10:54.912 the OpenAI dots went all the way depending on the image you get it could be 00:10:54.912 --> 00:10:58.223 Ubuntu 24.4 some report the one I tested was Debian Trixie, 00:10:59.460 --> 00:11:01.724 Linux 6.18.4.4 but get this Brent, 00:11:03.534 --> 00:11:08.853 The .Linux VM includes an XFCE desktop, a terminal emulator, 00:11:08.853 --> 00:11:15.533 a file manager, a browser, Blender, GIMP, Inkscape, KDNLive, like more and more. 00:11:17.901 --> 00:11:22.053 And the agent can use all of it. And you can take over. In the web browser, 00:11:22.053 --> 00:11:23.803 you can take over the desktop session. 00:11:23.803 --> 00:11:29.853 It seems like those installs are pretty targeted, though, to visual arts, I would say. 00:11:29.853 --> 00:11:30.179 Yeah. 00:11:30.394 --> 00:11:33.017 Which is not the first place I expected that to go. 00:11:33.888 --> 00:11:37.343 A lot of those tools can be stacked to, like, grab clips for people and, 00:11:37.343 --> 00:11:39.173 you know, make little videos. 00:11:39.173 --> 00:11:40.843 Edit or change images. 00:11:43.470 --> 00:11:46.603 The numbers could be pretty nuts in that it's like it reminds me of Android 00:11:46.603 --> 00:11:48.956 where we got millions of Linux users, but they don't even know it. 00:11:50.076 --> 00:11:54.603 But there is the incentive for certain hardware device manufacturers now to 00:11:54.603 --> 00:12:00.313 target Linux because of that fact. You know, like, it feels like it's a version 00:12:00.313 --> 00:12:03.811 of that, only it's not just the kernel now, it's a full Linux desktop. 00:12:03.956 --> 00:12:07.933 If you want folks as, you know, helper agents to be able to use your thing, 00:12:07.933 --> 00:12:09.987 well, then it better support Linux. 00:12:10.678 --> 00:12:13.903 Let's talk a little bit about the design, too, because they're trying to do 00:12:13.903 --> 00:12:18.653 these in a secure way. And Meta's pitch is for Muse is that every user gets 00:12:18.653 --> 00:12:20.204 their own Linux computer in the cloud. 00:12:20.332 --> 00:12:24.313 Nat Friedman said it out on X, I think he said, quote, a free Linux computer 00:12:24.313 --> 00:12:25.800 in the cloud with every Muse. 00:12:26.671 --> 00:12:32.656 And the way they're doing it is a container that sits on top of a VM. 00:12:32.963 --> 00:12:36.237 And the container runs under systemd nspawn as PID1. 00:12:37.217 --> 00:12:39.263 And then they just wipe that container, right? 00:12:39.263 --> 00:12:43.003 Yep. That's their, like, deploy mechanism. Yeah. So you do get like there is 00:12:43.003 --> 00:12:45.698 a VM from cloud hypervisor that sort of runs everything. 00:12:45.907 --> 00:12:49.773 But then internally, like, yeah, all the the only thing that really persists 00:12:49.773 --> 00:12:52.113 is your home slash home slash hatch. 00:12:52.923 --> 00:12:56.263 And then they use the container to sort of deploy everything around that. 00:12:56.263 --> 00:12:59.514 A lot of the environment kind of sets everything up and it makes it so that 00:12:59.770 --> 00:13:03.873 like because they'll restart the service frequently every couple of hours overnight. 00:13:03.873 --> 00:13:05.163 They're doing updates during the day. 00:13:05.563 --> 00:13:09.413 And they've tried to make it work so that they can just sort of cleanly roll things out. 00:13:09.413 --> 00:13:13.103 And maybe you notice a little blip and the bot isn't showing up as green for 00:13:13.103 --> 00:13:16.583 a second or something. But otherwise, it just gets it right back into action. 00:13:16.583 --> 00:13:21.293 And as long as you're not relying on anything that just got rolled by the container update, you'll be okay. 00:13:21.293 --> 00:13:23.512 But it does mean you lose everything outside your home directory. 00:13:23.698 --> 00:13:24.168 Yes. 00:13:24.638 --> 00:13:27.803 But you can design around that, obviously, as Wes has, which we'll talk about 00:13:27.803 --> 00:13:30.118 more later. There's also... 00:13:31.262 --> 00:13:36.235 A really kind of super strict network design around Muse. 00:13:37.110 --> 00:13:43.161 Really, the Muse VM has no direct access to the internet, inbound or outbound. 00:13:44.571 --> 00:13:49.110 So anything you do is definitely being intercepted by meta. 00:13:49.110 --> 00:13:51.980 DNS is intercepted. TLS is intercepted. 00:13:51.980 --> 00:13:52.930 These are not private. 00:13:52.930 --> 00:13:55.890 There's no UDP at all, including loopback. 00:13:56.370 --> 00:13:59.870 So there's a lot of VPNs that won't work, too, because of the way they've structured 00:13:59.870 --> 00:14:02.330 their network. There's a lot of apps that rely on UDP that won't work. 00:14:02.776 --> 00:14:05.649 A lot of network communications tools that rely on UDP that won't work. 00:14:05.788 --> 00:14:09.360 Yeah, egress is basically all done through an authenticated HTTP proxy. 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.950 Port 22 is blocked. You can get SSH to work, but you have to jump through a couple of hoops. 00:14:13.950 --> 00:14:19.550 And you can get Tailscale to work, which is surprising. And that's because Tailscale 00:14:19.550 --> 00:14:24.092 supports derp, which is how it's able to communicate in this funky network setup. 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:28.776 But what that allows is that they've got this separate sentinel that they call. 00:14:29.194 --> 00:14:33.490 and it's able to then do fine-grained control. So you can allow access to a 00:14:33.490 --> 00:14:35.155 particular domain or whatever once, 00:14:35.451 --> 00:14:37.810 or you can allow it all the time and a prompt just sort of loads that. 00:14:37.810 --> 00:14:41.180 And that's all done by sort of not restricting what the request sort of, 00:14:41.523 --> 00:14:45.920 you can make in theory inside the VM, but just only allowing ones to succeed 00:14:45.920 --> 00:14:47.490 that actually go through their gateway. 00:14:48.332 --> 00:14:51.910 And on the topic of networking, GrokBot, just really quickly, 00:14:52.430 --> 00:14:55.030 I'd say you could characterize it as probably the most open. 00:14:55.030 --> 00:14:58.026 There are ways to connect it to external services and it can communicate. 00:14:58.700 --> 00:15:04.040 And then what they do with GrokBot is they sell the lockdown as kind of like 00:15:04.040 --> 00:15:06.630 an enterprise upsell. So if you want the business version of GrokBot, 00:15:06.630 --> 00:15:07.605 they start locking that down. 00:15:08.550 --> 00:15:14.843 And then on OpenAI Dots, the picture is much more murky. 00:15:15.302 --> 00:15:19.560 And the irony and the pitch with OpenAI Dots is that if you get a dot, 00:15:19.560 --> 00:15:25.190 you get GPT-6 Astra behind it, supposedly the best of all of these agentic platforms 00:15:25.190 --> 00:15:26.709 that they're just begging you to use. 00:15:27.621 --> 00:15:31.406 Muse is actually quite good, but, you know, it's not the frontier model or whatever the crap. 00:15:31.769 --> 00:15:36.107 But this thing is so constrained at the agentic layer that it really doesn't know what's going on. 00:15:36.374 --> 00:15:39.710 It appears from what I can tell that a lot of the security practices and the 00:15:39.710 --> 00:15:43.930 networking best practices and all of that are like almost like at the agent's 00:15:43.930 --> 00:15:48.480 MD level for this thing and not at like the OS and architecture level. 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.240 Where with Muse, they are at 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:54.224 the OS and architecture level and the Muse agent can just figure it out. 00:15:54.985 --> 00:15:59.454 But with dots, because it's being constrained more at the agent layer, it won't push. 00:16:00.810 --> 00:16:06.560 It kind of refers you to open AI support instead. It won't do – I have to really push it to –. 00:16:08.352 --> 00:16:12.699 Really make modifications like just as a brief aside you could ask muse where 00:16:12.699 --> 00:16:16.109 was my persistent storage and where is it not and muse can answer that the dot 00:16:16.109 --> 00:16:20.139 cannot you have to just have it deploy files and monitor them for 24 hours and 00:16:20.139 --> 00:16:21.449 tell you what files persisted. 00:16:21.449 --> 00:16:24.780 Yeah it really feels like the muse bot is just sort of sitting in this you know 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:28.399 containerized linux environment and within that is happy to try to poke around 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:29.899 for it's surprisingly unrestricted, 00:16:30.363 --> 00:16:34.329 yeah whereas you got to wonder as on the dot side like is it a more limited 00:16:34.329 --> 00:16:36.979 harness experience where it's mostly just sort of adjudicated, 00:16:37.459 --> 00:16:40.569 APIs and not like a full-fat shell, something like that. 00:16:40.569 --> 00:16:46.319 Feels like that to me. It definitely, I was able to get Nix installed in my 00:16:46.319 --> 00:16:50.558 .vm and get it persistently reloaded after VM wipes. So I did get there after a while. 00:16:50.738 --> 00:16:53.902 But architecturally, Wes, is there anything else you think it's worth noting, 00:16:54.999 --> 00:16:58.685 how these things are set up from like a Linux VM or system standpoint? 00:16:58.958 --> 00:17:01.899 Well, yeah, like we've tried to dig into some of the details. there's, 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:06.309 mixed a lot of you know sort of assumptions or guesses because not all of the 00:17:06.309 --> 00:17:10.479 details are public it does seem like meta has been particularly fairly open 00:17:10.479 --> 00:17:14.487 about a lot of the design and and in their case they're using a lot of ebpf, 00:17:15.050 --> 00:17:20.054 um like they have one thing that you might run into when you try to get something like nix working is, 00:17:20.518 --> 00:17:24.953 uh they use extended attributes to sort of track files that you've modified 00:17:25.266 --> 00:17:28.479 so they have two particular ones and they mark stuff that gets downloaded from 00:17:28.479 --> 00:17:32.771 the network and they also mark any user modified or created files and 00:17:33.177 --> 00:17:36.799 you you can list that you can see it they don't hide it from you but you can't 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:40.619 remove it at least from you know within the within the virtual machine so they're 00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:44.089 clearly and i think then they have um like ebpf filtering for that kind of thing 00:17:44.089 --> 00:17:46.186 and are doing a whole bunch of extra sort of, 00:17:47.059 --> 00:17:50.829 i assume observe observability and telemetry on that because it does seem like 00:17:50.829 --> 00:17:54.319 they've they've really put work into the harness engineering side of this whether 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:58.259 or not you like the product or want use it or trust them. It is kind of impressive. It is... 00:18:00.345 --> 00:18:02.910 Well integrated. They have crons that seem to work quite well. 00:18:03.910 --> 00:18:07.015 It has no problem doing subagents or polling. 00:18:07.438 --> 00:18:09.960 And all within a VM, it is happy to poke around. 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:14.380 I want to talk about that just for a moment. I'll start with the privacy aspect 00:18:14.380 --> 00:18:16.204 because I do feel like this is the elephant in the room. 00:18:16.750 --> 00:18:21.420 All of these are a privacy nightmare. Like in the case of connecting your Gmail 00:18:21.420 --> 00:18:25.050 accounts, they all, when you start them, want to immediately connect to your 00:18:25.050 --> 00:18:27.401 Google Calendar, your Gmail inbox. 00:18:27.969 --> 00:18:31.220 And in the case of Muse, and I'm certain this is how the other ones are doing it, 00:18:32.091 --> 00:18:35.911 those emails are getting pulled into a queue box that lives outside your Muse, 00:18:36.735 --> 00:18:41.230 that lives outside the VM, that lives outside your agent, that is a service 00:18:41.230 --> 00:18:43.310 that Meta runs and a service that OpenAI runs. 00:18:43.310 --> 00:18:47.290 And it creates like a queue, and then the agents basically over like an MCP, 00:18:47.956 --> 00:18:51.288 can connect to that queue and check for email for you. So that's doing the pulling. 00:18:51.648 --> 00:18:54.610 And while it's in that queue, there's absolutely nothing that says they couldn't 00:18:54.610 --> 00:18:56.228 be reading all of those emails, right? 00:18:56.402 --> 00:18:59.763 And this is the problem throughout. They can do DNS interception. 00:19:00.129 --> 00:19:04.489 They can tell what files you've modified. It's clearly not a private platform, 00:19:04.947 --> 00:19:08.343 where when you do this stuff with something like Hermes or OpenClaw, 00:19:09.250 --> 00:19:12.598 that data exists on your system to the extent of what it sends to the LLM or not. 00:19:12.964 --> 00:19:15.120 Yeah, it does seem like they're trying to give you control. Like it is pretty 00:19:15.120 --> 00:19:16.770 transparent about the network stuff, right? 00:19:17.510 --> 00:19:20.075 They are very transparent about everything, actually. You can ask it. It will tell you. 00:19:20.470 --> 00:19:24.310 And I think they're going to offer something like confidential VMs where they 00:19:24.310 --> 00:19:25.525 do more encryption or whatever. 00:19:25.763 --> 00:19:30.505 But yeah, fundamentally, you just can't really trust that beyond what you're willing to. 00:19:30.772 --> 00:19:33.298 And then the other thing that struck me compared to now, you know, 00:19:33.553 --> 00:19:36.072 so what's happened is, what I realized is, 00:19:36.694 --> 00:19:39.770 January and February, we started getting our own agentic harnesses, 00:19:39.770 --> 00:19:42.737 and people that can self-host had access to this pretty early in the year. 00:19:43.115 --> 00:19:46.300 Now what we're seeing is the mass consumer versions of these, 00:19:46.300 --> 00:19:48.804 where they have commoditized the technology. 00:19:49.198 --> 00:19:52.590 They have bought the compute infrastructure, like meta overbought infrastructure. 00:19:52.590 --> 00:19:54.609 So that's why they can give Muse away for free for a while. 00:19:54.934 --> 00:19:58.200 And then their intention to monetize is that you're going to love using this 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:01.737 thing so much that you'll do transactions that they can take a piece of the action on. 00:20:02.091 --> 00:20:04.840 So they have all this compute. They have all this strategy. that can now bring 00:20:04.840 --> 00:20:07.867 it and blast it to everybody's Facebook feed and everybody's Instagram feed. 00:20:08.181 --> 00:20:11.658 And they can take something that was only available to us geeks back in February 00:20:11.925 --> 00:20:15.768 and just 10 months later, now it's available to anybody that has an Instagram account. 00:20:16.134 --> 00:20:19.620 That's where we're at now. Or anybody that has a ChatGPT account or anybody 00:20:19.620 --> 00:20:22.397 that has an X account and they're willing to pay the fee. 00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:26.940 Or Muse is free. So this is where we're at. And it's all running on Linux. 00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:30.551 The whole stack is running on Linux, right? So that element I like. 00:20:30.946 --> 00:20:33.750 And when you start using them initially, if you're familiar with the self-hosted 00:20:33.750 --> 00:20:36.698 versions, they feel very primitive and very basic. 00:20:37.023 --> 00:20:39.630 But as you continue to use, or in our case, poke and test at them, 00:20:39.938 --> 00:20:43.110 you will find that they actually have incorporated ideas that we spent a lot 00:20:43.110 --> 00:20:44.680 of time building the last 10 months. 00:20:45.040 --> 00:20:48.570 They've just baked it right into their product. And the normies just get it by clicking a button. 00:20:48.570 --> 00:20:49.945 Clearly been paying attention. 00:20:50.056 --> 00:20:52.950 Yeah. Like if you've ever had a problem getting your agent to follow up on a 00:20:52.950 --> 00:20:56.140 task, they've all solved that, buddy. If it says I'll report back when it's 00:20:56.140 --> 00:20:57.740 done, it reports back when it's done. 00:20:57.740 --> 00:20:59.130 Yeah, very good at that. 00:20:59.130 --> 00:21:01.381 Lots of little things. It's like clearly they've polished that. 00:21:01.869 --> 00:21:04.730 And it's going to be compelling to some people. and they're all going to, 00:21:04.730 --> 00:21:06.240 I mean, there are millions of people already. 00:21:06.414 --> 00:21:11.020 In that sense, it's almost like, you know, again, I agree with all of the qualifiers. 00:21:11.020 --> 00:21:11.340 Yeah. 00:21:11.340 --> 00:21:16.290 It is somewhat heartening to see a product rollout in this category that isn't 00:21:16.290 --> 00:21:20.439 trash because we've seen a lot of really bad rollouts for quote unquote AI. 00:21:21.268 --> 00:21:23.916 And we've talked a bit about some of the backlash from that. 00:21:23.916 --> 00:21:26.476 So I'm not saying this is a perfect product or that y'all should use it. 00:21:26.476 --> 00:21:28.750 It doesn't really respect a lot of the stuff we like on the show. 00:21:28.878 --> 00:21:33.066 It's pretty much better than every other AI product big tech companies have rolled out. 00:21:33.066 --> 00:21:33.470 Yeah. 00:21:34.376 --> 00:21:36.622 And it comes with a Linux VM. I mean, I just, again. 00:21:36.866 --> 00:21:38.936 That you can install almost whatever you want. 00:21:38.956 --> 00:21:41.416 Well, we can even run a website on it, which we'll get to in a moment. 00:21:41.416 --> 00:21:42.845 But your thoughts so far, Brentley? 00:21:43.594 --> 00:21:46.107 Yeah. This feels like we've gotten to the point where, 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:53.770 we're seeing like mass shifting compute to the cloud or whatever you want to call it. 00:21:54.636 --> 00:21:58.436 And away from personal devices. So, you know, those of us who are listening 00:21:58.436 --> 00:22:02.586 to the show are fine because we have way too many computers probably around 00:22:02.586 --> 00:22:04.216 us and we're doing all sorts of things with them. 00:22:04.216 --> 00:22:09.706 But this feels like a major shift. Like if they're deploying millions of these 00:22:09.706 --> 00:22:14.496 on a daily basis, it's just a matter of time that most people are using these 00:22:14.496 --> 00:22:18.522 if this catches on in the way that we're seeing at least early. 00:22:19.256 --> 00:22:22.766 And what cooks my noodle is the way people are going to be interacting with 00:22:22.766 --> 00:22:27.576 the Linux desktop in a way that outnumbers all of us is they're going to open 00:22:27.576 --> 00:22:30.120 up an app on their phone and they're going to ask it to do a thing. 00:22:30.857 --> 00:22:34.726 And then the thing that they need that needs done will be will happen on the 00:22:34.726 --> 00:22:37.776 Linux box. and then it'll launch a chrome browser and. 00:22:37.776 --> 00:22:41.836 Go look at stuff and yeah take screenshots it. 00:22:41.836 --> 00:22:43.196 Kind of reminds me of. 00:22:43.196 --> 00:22:48.006 The like popularity of linux through android but now it's just another version. 00:22:48.006 --> 00:22:51.056 Of it which i agree both very cool technically. 00:22:51.056 --> 00:22:55.266 And unfortunate which i mean kind of one of linus's goals right. 00:22:55.266 --> 00:22:59.423 But out of all of those the androids the tivos, 00:23:00.956 --> 00:23:05.990 This one maybe has the most upside for desktop Linux users because these are 00:23:05.990 --> 00:23:10.662 Linux desktops using Linux desktop applications with Linux desktop web agents. 00:23:11.596 --> 00:23:15.250 Right? Like before, it was all lower level kernel stuff, networking drivers. 00:23:15.250 --> 00:23:16.470 Embedded devices. 00:23:16.470 --> 00:23:19.826 Maybe they didn't even want like the user land, right? But this, 00:23:20.111 --> 00:23:24.850 like if you open up an OpenAI dot and you go and look at the – they will all 00:23:24.850 --> 00:23:29.794 show you their computer screens. GrokBot, Muse, they all let you just basically VNC into the computer. 00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:33.700 And the dot one is just sitting there with an XFCE desktop with a freaking dock, 00:23:34.188 --> 00:23:36.667 and Chromium just sitting there ready to go. 00:23:37.085 --> 00:23:40.640 That's its default state. And you can click on the terminal and you can uname 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:43.871 dash A and you can type. It's wild. 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:47.880 Or you tell them the thing to do it and you can watch it. You can sit there 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:49.300 and watch it use the computer. 00:23:49.300 --> 00:23:49.827 Wow. 00:23:51.655 --> 00:23:54.465 It doesn't seem like the most efficient way. Like, you know, 00:23:54.465 --> 00:23:59.245 it reminds me like KDE Plasma was thinking about ways to make it more friendly 00:23:59.245 --> 00:24:01.215 for AI workflows. Well, here you go. 00:24:02.315 --> 00:24:04.175 Like, yeah, don't force it to take the slope. 00:24:05.535 --> 00:24:09.505 I'm surprised they're not using desktops that are more like AI friendly. 00:24:09.870 --> 00:24:11.774 Like, why didn't they choose Hypervibe? 00:24:12.157 --> 00:24:15.915 Well, I mean, I imagine because they want something that's low resources, 00:24:15.915 --> 00:24:18.195 doesn't need a compositor, you know, that has a GPU. 00:24:18.515 --> 00:24:19.215 Didn't we see? 00:24:19.215 --> 00:24:20.755 Reliable remote setup. 00:24:20.755 --> 00:24:22.360 Yeah, because you're using this like through VNC. 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:28.785 But didn't we see Hyperland getting, was it Hyperland getting like APIs or MCPs 00:24:28.785 --> 00:24:32.294 to use the desktop itself? Wouldn't that be far more efficient? 00:24:32.838 --> 00:24:36.625 Sure would be. Also, you could do this with Pipewire and RDP and that would 00:24:36.625 --> 00:24:38.515 also be more efficient. But I mean. 00:24:38.555 --> 00:24:40.585 It'd be interesting to know exactly what they are doing. 00:24:40.585 --> 00:24:43.625 Somebody will probably figure it out, but it's amazing they've gotten this far 00:24:43.625 --> 00:24:50.565 in some ways. It's just mind-blowing that Linux desktop is just a feature that 00:24:50.565 --> 00:24:51.514 comes with these things. 00:24:51.769 --> 00:24:56.360 Just a whole frickin' VM with RAM and disks, you know, various amounts. 00:24:56.738 --> 00:24:58.097 We're just a commodity now. 00:24:58.659 --> 00:25:05.185 Oh, here it is. Yeah, AMD Epic CPUs and the OpenAI dot. Some people are reporting 32 gigs of RAM. 00:25:07.774 --> 00:25:11.855 In this day and age, we could raise RAM prices? 32 gigs of RAM? 00:25:12.095 --> 00:25:14.165 You're going to have to spend a little bit just to get that for yourself. 00:25:14.165 --> 00:25:19.125 So it just begs the question, is there something more you could do with this? 00:25:19.125 --> 00:25:23.178 Like if Muse and Dots are going to be thrown in your face for free, 00:25:23.857 --> 00:25:27.855 is there something more you could do with that Linux box? That was the question 00:25:27.855 --> 00:25:32.785 we asked ourself, and I think you already know the answer. I think it's time we tell you how we did it. 00:25:41.755 --> 00:25:45.953 Well, I've been kind of busy this week, not really connected as I usually am 00:25:45.953 --> 00:25:48.860 to our conversations here internally at JB. 00:25:49.232 --> 00:25:51.612 And I noticed this part of the segment of the show just says, 00:25:52.363 --> 00:25:57.040 Wes. So, Wes, what the heck is going on? What have you gotten yourself into? 00:25:57.353 --> 00:25:58.543 Wes, what have you done? 00:25:59.431 --> 00:26:03.523 Yeah, well, I mean, it started just with, you know, the obsession with Nix, 00:26:04.063 --> 00:26:06.753 if I'm honest, right? Because I got on this thing where, you know, 00:26:06.753 --> 00:26:10.368 we were making some updates, working with the website a little bit. 00:26:11.003 --> 00:26:14.543 and I just wanted to be able to do it all with Nix and not have to deal with, 00:26:15.023 --> 00:26:18.123 the containerized setup, which is totally fine and definitely works, 00:26:18.123 --> 00:26:20.757 but I already have Nix all set up. 00:26:20.885 --> 00:26:25.163 Plus, then I realized, like, we're more than a few versions behind on Hugo at 00:26:25.163 --> 00:26:29.035 this point. There's some other stuff under the hood, like the horribleness of 00:26:29.291 --> 00:26:34.271 Dart sass and upgrades to Libsass and deprecations and things there. 00:26:34.591 --> 00:26:37.627 And I wanted to be able to test things out, right? 00:26:38.637 --> 00:26:43.723 And here at the same time, I'd been playing with Muse just to see what was this 00:26:43.723 --> 00:26:45.853 all about? How does it compare with the various setups? 00:26:45.853 --> 00:26:48.103 Honestly, when somebody's going to throw that much free compute at you. 00:26:48.443 --> 00:26:49.335 Yeah. Mm-hmm. 00:26:50.601 --> 00:26:54.619 And so it just sort of clicked, and I thought, well, why not just test it this 00:26:54.619 --> 00:26:58.136 way? I don't have to spin up a VPS. I've already got a VPS. 00:26:58.763 --> 00:27:03.099 The Muse. Well, and also, you know, these are shipping Ubuntu or Debian, 00:27:03.099 --> 00:27:07.579 right? There's maybe some logic to having the Nix package manager inside these 00:27:07.579 --> 00:27:10.009 because it just opens you up to so much. 00:27:10.009 --> 00:27:12.769 App does a lot, which is great, but there's going to be stuff that App doesn't 00:27:12.769 --> 00:27:15.889 have. And then your bot's probably going to come up with whatever ad hoc way 00:27:15.889 --> 00:27:19.869 it happens to land on to go download a binary or install Homeware or whatever it does. 00:27:19.869 --> 00:27:26.225 Like, for example, in my Muse and in my Dot, I have OpenCode set up. 00:27:26.434 --> 00:27:29.342 And I want OpenCode version 2 because it has an API backend. 00:27:29.888 --> 00:27:34.067 And version 1 is available in Debian, but version 2 is not. 00:27:34.456 --> 00:27:37.529 It's available in NPM, but I don't want to deal with that. I want to use Nix 00:27:37.529 --> 00:27:39.605 packages to manage that and install that for me. 00:27:39.977 --> 00:27:44.238 So in my Muse and in my Dot, I have Nix packages installed. 00:27:44.917 --> 00:27:49.265 And then they installed OpenCode with the API backend and the Goal plugin. 00:27:49.787 --> 00:27:56.069 and I authorized it to my OpenCode account and I can, through Muse and through 00:27:56.069 --> 00:28:01.339 Dot, submit jobs to OpenCode and have it build on Space Bunny or something and 00:28:01.339 --> 00:28:03.098 then they can monitor it through the API. 00:28:04.109 --> 00:28:06.546 And when it's time for an update, they use Nix packages to update it. 00:28:07.388 --> 00:28:09.593 Which is kind of what you exactly wanted, right? 00:28:09.593 --> 00:28:12.813 Yeah, I just basically have a little background build machine that's always 00:28:12.813 --> 00:28:15.893 just working on something. I mean, if you're going to give me free compute, 00:28:15.893 --> 00:28:18.068 I'm just going to have it sit there turning on something. And, 00:28:19.353 --> 00:28:22.782 you know, Space Bunny's free right now, too. So I'm going to eat it up, 00:28:23.333 --> 00:28:24.473 you know, build that Nix stuff. 00:28:24.473 --> 00:28:28.733 There are some hoops you've got to jump through with Nix because of those extended 00:28:28.733 --> 00:28:30.090 attributes in particular. 00:28:30.328 --> 00:28:33.453 Because Nix wants to be really pure. And so it's going to want to try to strip 00:28:33.453 --> 00:28:37.343 extended attributes to keep things fully under its control and deterministic 00:28:37.343 --> 00:28:38.716 when it's adding stuff to the store. 00:28:39.134 --> 00:28:42.815 But you're not allowed to remove those extended attributes. 00:28:43.833 --> 00:28:46.385 So ultimately, we've explored like a few different things. 00:28:46.600 --> 00:28:49.543 That's funny because I was sorry to interrupt, but I was going to say the trickiest 00:28:49.543 --> 00:28:50.953 thing is that they wipe themselves. 00:28:50.953 --> 00:28:52.413 Well, that too. That's also. 00:28:52.773 --> 00:28:55.863 And so you have to build it in a way that recovers from a complete system wipe. 00:28:55.863 --> 00:28:57.303 But you have to get it working first. 00:28:57.303 --> 00:29:01.213 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these are the caveats. And then you've got the networking caveats. 00:29:01.213 --> 00:29:06.663 It does look like we've explored, like we had the bot write like an LD preload shim for a while. 00:29:06.663 --> 00:29:09.913 I explored a custom Nix build, but it does look like there are sufficient config 00:29:09.913 --> 00:29:13.913 options that you can get it to totally ignore those ACLs. There's an ignore 00:29:13.913 --> 00:29:16.713 ACL option, essentially, and then not have to worry about it. 00:29:17.173 --> 00:29:20.893 But then you run into that second problem, which is like if you have a regular 00:29:20.893 --> 00:29:23.283 slash Nix or something, that's just going to get wiped. Or if you put it on 00:29:23.283 --> 00:29:25.823 a temp FS, there's only like two gigs available there by default. 00:29:25.823 --> 00:29:26.473 And it'll get wiped. 00:29:26.473 --> 00:29:30.692 And yeah, and it's the only real static places under slash home slash hatch. 00:29:30.930 --> 00:29:34.433 And then what you are going to want to end up doing is writing some wrappers. 00:29:34.433 --> 00:29:35.388 You know how we love wrappers. 00:29:35.731 --> 00:29:38.183 Because you want something idempotent so that it basically can, 00:29:38.183 --> 00:29:41.133 every time it runs, it can say, like, am I set up? Okay, great. 00:29:41.133 --> 00:29:44.316 Use the tool normally. If not, go re-bootstrap the environment, 00:29:44.572 --> 00:29:47.733 which is pretty fast, actually, but still needs to be done. 00:29:47.733 --> 00:29:52.083 Another trick you could add to that is the scheduler is persistent and the home 00:29:52.083 --> 00:29:55.810 directory is persistent. So you could, if you knew the wipe schedule or... 00:29:56.668 --> 00:30:01.863 Every so often, you could have cron essentially reset up your environment when 00:30:01.863 --> 00:30:03.973 it gets wiped out or something. Do a little check and then reset it up. 00:30:03.973 --> 00:30:09.013 Yes. And that has been a huge help in making this website not fall apart constantly. 00:30:10.053 --> 00:30:12.093 These are some of the limitations Wes had to work around. 00:30:12.433 --> 00:30:15.733 Yeah, exactly. So, like, right now, you know, the request press, 00:30:15.733 --> 00:30:19.753 I am using a VPS, but that's just for a public IP, essentially. Proxy. 00:30:20.393 --> 00:30:24.863 Yep. And then because you need some kind of proxying going on and you have to 00:30:24.863 --> 00:30:30.263 get through the sort of approved egress going out of this whole setup from the 00:30:30.263 --> 00:30:34.413 Sentinel, I'm using essentially a nice SSH forwarding setup. 00:30:34.413 --> 00:30:36.493 Ah, classic. A goodie. 00:30:36.493 --> 00:30:40.253 But even that, there have been times where the egress has been a little bit flaky. 00:30:40.253 --> 00:30:45.103 So you're definitely going to want to build in some ability to handle drops. 00:30:45.103 --> 00:30:48.503 At one point it was like, today it's been pretty good. But, you know, 00:30:48.503 --> 00:30:51.343 there were times where, like, 50% loss on some of the connections. 00:30:51.343 --> 00:30:54.173 So it needs to be resilient, reset itself up, that kind of thing. 00:30:54.713 --> 00:30:59.793 So you got a SSH tunnel going back to a VPS, where a VPS is running with a public 00:30:59.793 --> 00:31:05.523 IP and a little NGINX proxy that's just taking the port 80 traffic and the 443 00:31:05.523 --> 00:31:07.794 traffic and sending it back over the SSH tunnel. 00:31:08.218 --> 00:31:08.497 Right. 00:31:09.416 --> 00:31:10.416 Then sending to the muse. 00:31:10.936 --> 00:31:15.266 And then yeah and then on the muse thing uh i essentially gave it uh access 00:31:15.266 --> 00:31:19.076 to the version of the site that's now building with nyx and so then it could 00:31:19.076 --> 00:31:21.971 use its nyx wrapper script to bootstrap the nyx environment, 00:31:22.511 --> 00:31:27.416 uh which pulls in the updated version of hugo builds the whole site uh and then it, 00:31:28.136 --> 00:31:32.186 uh it wrote its own little quick static server just to add on it's using python 00:31:32.186 --> 00:31:36.013 just to be easy but it also added on threading and gzip for some of the assets 00:31:36.292 --> 00:31:38.991 a few optimizations just to make it not super painfully slow. 00:31:39.328 --> 00:31:44.246 And then it starts that up as part of this setup as well. And then that's ultimately 00:31:44.246 --> 00:31:48.413 what terminates the whole thing. Python serves the static sites that Hugo built. 00:31:48.564 --> 00:31:51.836 But of course, we want that idempotent too. So there's a start site script that 00:31:51.836 --> 00:31:53.046 kills anything that's existing. 00:31:53.466 --> 00:31:56.383 It makes sure everything is correct, makes sure the server is running, 00:31:57.036 --> 00:32:01.316 does some loop checks to actually make sure that it is fully serving to the outside world as well. 00:32:01.516 --> 00:32:02.466 Okay, good. Wow. 00:32:02.466 --> 00:32:02.806 Yeah. 00:32:02.806 --> 00:32:04.172 We can basically, we're good to go. 00:32:04.631 --> 00:32:07.596 And that's where there's also the site watchdog cron every five minutes that 00:32:07.596 --> 00:32:09.536 goes and checks to make sure everything's happening. 00:32:10.496 --> 00:32:13.846 There's also some other stuff, similar, like Nix, to just make sure everything's 00:32:13.846 --> 00:32:15.678 still set up and ready to go. 00:32:16.038 --> 00:32:18.716 And then the other part I ended up setting up, which was just kind of helpful, 00:32:19.399 --> 00:32:25.523 was I set up a mailbox on that VPS so that I was using an open code locally 00:32:25.848 --> 00:32:27.845 and Muse could start working together. 00:32:28.663 --> 00:32:32.786 Interesting. So you're having like handoffs essentially between Muse and an 00:32:32.786 --> 00:32:34.091 OpenCode job to set stuff up? 00:32:34.352 --> 00:32:34.631 Yeah. 00:32:34.828 --> 00:32:35.486 I love that. 00:32:35.486 --> 00:32:39.326 And so OpenCode could just go leave messages. And then the crons are so reliable 00:32:39.326 --> 00:32:43.096 that like it just had it set every two minutes. It goes and checks for new mailbox 00:32:43.096 --> 00:32:46.896 messages and it'll automatically pick it up and it'll ping me if it has a question 00:32:46.896 --> 00:32:49.689 about it or whatever. Or I can ping the bot back if it would like to. 00:32:50.357 --> 00:32:51.831 That's great. I should think about that. 00:32:52.817 --> 00:32:58.273 Yeah, the big thing for me was figuring out, the breakthrough was just figuring 00:32:58.273 --> 00:33:00.014 out getting the environment restored. 00:33:01.443 --> 00:33:05.203 I have not hosted any persistent services in it. I got to imagine we're going 00:33:05.203 --> 00:33:06.993 to watch them try to respond to people doing this. 00:33:06.993 --> 00:33:07.793 Probably. 00:33:08.234 --> 00:33:12.763 Because an SSH tunnel is sort of a pretty well-known foo. You know what I mean? 00:33:12.763 --> 00:33:13.650 People are going to do that. 00:33:14.939 --> 00:33:17.433 Yeah, so it wasn't crazy. There were some hoops to jump through. 00:33:17.433 --> 00:33:18.363 The performance is okay. 00:33:18.363 --> 00:33:21.736 Muse did not try to get in the way. Nothing about the system seemed to be like, 00:33:21.847 --> 00:33:24.603 what are you doing? Yeah, performance is fine. 00:33:25.223 --> 00:33:29.353 Not the fastest box, not the slowest. I mean, the Muse VM is better than the 00:33:29.353 --> 00:33:31.183 VPS that I'm renting to me, the proxy. 00:33:31.183 --> 00:33:31.733 Wow. 00:33:31.733 --> 00:33:36.673 Yeah, well, that's the thing. If you were just trying to host some private stuff 00:33:36.673 --> 00:33:42.576 for yourself, you could add this to your tail net, and you could put Jellyfin, 00:33:43.267 --> 00:33:44.263 on this thing or something. 00:33:44.263 --> 00:33:47.121 Like, you could have it be a little server on your tail net. 00:33:47.623 --> 00:33:50.923 And there's a set of a cron that just makes sure it's running and starts it, if not. 00:33:50.923 --> 00:33:52.663 You've got to be a special kind of special. 00:33:52.663 --> 00:33:54.423 Read the terms of service first, right? 00:33:55.223 --> 00:33:57.443 However- Don't put your weirdest media on there. 00:33:57.443 --> 00:34:00.713 All like the ACL stuff and the lockdown stuff you can do with Tailnet devices, 00:34:00.713 --> 00:34:01.913 you can do with the Muse too. 00:34:01.913 --> 00:34:04.543 Yeah, you don't have to expose it to everything on your Tailnet. 00:34:04.543 --> 00:34:07.893 Right, right. But it's just a wild, because then all of a sudden, 00:34:07.893 --> 00:34:09.085 all this stuff you've done, 00:34:10.438 --> 00:34:12.898 For the networking layer, kind of just completely goes away. 00:34:12.898 --> 00:34:15.768 You still have to recreate the persistent environment and all that, 00:34:15.768 --> 00:34:19.548 but like all of those networking workarounds with the VPS and an SSH tunnel 00:34:19.548 --> 00:34:22.778 and checking to see if it's gone down, probably don't have to worry about that if you just... 00:34:22.808 --> 00:34:25.948 You definitely don't, no. You mostly just need one thing guaranteeing that, 00:34:25.948 --> 00:34:28.768 like, whatever service you want is running and starts it if not. 00:34:28.768 --> 00:34:31.768 I got to imagine these things are going to end up loaded with crypto miners, 00:34:32.787 --> 00:34:35.178 and bot networks, right, Brian? Like, don't you think? Like, 00:34:35.178 --> 00:34:36.708 this is just going to get abused? Oh, 100%. 00:34:36.708 --> 00:34:39.115 As soon as there's free compute, that's always what happens. 00:34:40.028 --> 00:34:41.828 I mean, like, yeah, it's too irresistible. 00:34:42.268 --> 00:34:45.888 I mean, that came to my mind like about five minutes ago. So anybody who's actually 00:34:46.208 --> 00:34:48.571 wanting to mine Bitcoin would have thought of it already. 00:34:49.568 --> 00:34:53.658 I'm curious what you both ran into that was like your most, I don't know, 00:34:53.658 --> 00:34:56.808 annoying or largest paper cut in this process. Because it sounds like you have 00:34:56.808 --> 00:35:02.769 to go through a couple of hoops just to get a compute environment that you actually want. 00:35:03.396 --> 00:35:05.683 But was there anything that like you didn't expect was going to be an issue? 00:35:06.700 --> 00:35:10.536 Hmm. I mean, you got to wrap your head around the fact that you got to sign 00:35:10.536 --> 00:35:12.806 into meta or you got to sign into open AI. Right. 00:35:12.911 --> 00:35:15.976 And then you got to be the hardest part of the process if you don't already have an account. 00:35:17.006 --> 00:35:21.586 Like to me, the worst implementation of these is in a web browser chat interface. 00:35:21.586 --> 00:35:24.080 That's actually the absolute worst implementation. 00:35:24.579 --> 00:35:29.066 Then next on that list is like Telegram and WhatsApp and those types of chat apps. 00:35:29.682 --> 00:35:34.606 And then like for me, the best is the TUI implementation. A couple of the desktop 00:35:34.606 --> 00:35:38.496 Electron apps are okay, but nothing has really beat the TUI apps for me for 00:35:38.496 --> 00:35:42.166 flexibility and building my own environment to manage these things with skills 00:35:42.166 --> 00:35:44.264 and MCPs and workflows that I establish. 00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:48.902 And so what would be really awesome is if I could pull it into open code. 00:35:49.448 --> 00:35:51.160 But that's never going to happen, I imagine. 00:35:51.986 --> 00:35:56.426 So you've got to live in their sandbox. You've got to live with their networking 00:35:56.426 --> 00:36:00.662 limitations, their VM limitations, and their interface limitations. 00:36:01.439 --> 00:36:03.756 But if you're just looking for free compute. 00:36:04.426 --> 00:36:08.026 And you kind of, you know, on some of the other products, you might get a little 00:36:08.026 --> 00:36:10.006 more choice, but you don't get full model choice either, right? 00:36:10.006 --> 00:36:11.926 Like with Muse, you just get, what, you just get Muse? 00:36:11.966 --> 00:36:15.569 Spark AI or whatever. I suppose they're going to iterate it pretty quickly. 00:36:15.824 --> 00:36:19.307 But it's not, and you don't, you can actually go look. 00:36:19.510 --> 00:36:23.536 At first, it doesn't show you very obviously the super details about what it's 00:36:23.536 --> 00:36:26.296 doing. But if you go poke, you can actually see a lot of the commands it's running 00:36:26.296 --> 00:36:27.366 and tool calls it's making. 00:36:27.726 --> 00:36:31.736 Yeah, it'll actually expose quite a bit to you. And the other thing that you 00:36:31.736 --> 00:36:34.307 just sort of touched on there made me just again with the Android analogy. 00:36:35.746 --> 00:36:39.358 It really feels like you're just going to have all of these people using this, 00:36:40.002 --> 00:36:41.486 and they're not really thinking about it. 00:36:42.626 --> 00:36:44.756 So not only are they not thinking about the fact that it's a Linux desktop, 00:36:45.151 --> 00:36:50.306 but they're not asking what model it is. People that are signing up for Muse, they're not asking... 00:36:51.303 --> 00:36:55.434 Is it using GPT-6? Is it using Claude? Is it using something meta-built? 00:36:55.812 --> 00:36:59.571 It's not even part of the discussion. Just like when you buy an Android device, 00:36:59.571 --> 00:37:01.291 they're not asking what Linux kernel it's using. 00:37:01.791 --> 00:37:03.611 They might not know that's a whole thing that's on there. 00:37:04.191 --> 00:37:04.851 But for us, it's like... 00:37:04.911 --> 00:37:06.459 They hardly know the version of Android of that. 00:37:07.271 --> 00:37:09.631 If you were to look at all of these, that's one of the key things to evaluate 00:37:09.631 --> 00:37:10.713 is what model is powering them. 00:37:11.126 --> 00:37:17.982 And to that end, their open source model behind this has been pretty damn good. Pretty damn good. 00:37:19.729 --> 00:37:21.841 Surprised me, actually, how good it was. 00:37:21.841 --> 00:37:25.431 And the implementation in Muse, the service has been pretty good. 00:37:25.431 --> 00:37:28.821 It's not perfect. It's not the best I've ever used, but it's quite reliable. 00:37:28.821 --> 00:37:30.851 Of the three I've been trying, I think it's been the fastest. 00:37:31.351 --> 00:37:32.031 It is pretty fast. 00:37:32.631 --> 00:37:36.251 And much more reliable than Dots. I don't know. I don't, I don't, 00:37:36.711 --> 00:37:40.318 I think I could foresee long-term, 00:37:41.155 --> 00:37:44.801 setting something up like Muse to just do a few reoccurring tasks that I want 00:37:44.801 --> 00:37:48.271 to burn tokens on that are maybe bandwidth heavy because it's also in a cloud data center. 00:37:48.471 --> 00:37:49.258 It burns in a data center, yeah. 00:37:50.686 --> 00:37:54.173 It is never going to replace my Hermes. It is never going to replace my open code setup. 00:37:54.253 --> 00:37:54.663 It just can't. 00:37:54.663 --> 00:37:58.970 It can't. It is not the same. And then you add the privacy. 00:37:59.398 --> 00:38:04.003 You know, it's a difference between also building on somebody else's property 00:38:04.003 --> 00:38:08.043 and renting versus, you know, building your own place and owning the foundation 00:38:08.043 --> 00:38:11.241 and owning the home and everything you build with it and all the memories and all the documents. 00:38:11.897 --> 00:38:15.676 So it's never going to replace that for me. But if I had a job that was like 00:38:15.809 --> 00:38:19.963 scan YouTube and cut clips and save them to a drive for me, well, 00:38:19.963 --> 00:38:24.563 why not burn Muse Compute for that? I don't care if they know what YouTube videos I want to watch. 00:38:24.563 --> 00:38:27.563 Yeah. For the jobs that aren't going to say a whole lot about you, 00:38:27.563 --> 00:38:30.243 aren't linking personal info, that is just sort of mechanical work. 00:38:30.243 --> 00:38:32.663 They sure do want you to link it to your bank accounts and everything, 00:38:32.663 --> 00:38:34.033 though. Just connect it right up. 00:38:36.481 --> 00:38:40.583 Not doing that. I'm not doing that. I'm not even doing that to my own bots. 00:38:40.583 --> 00:38:42.506 All right? So I'm not doing it to your bot. 00:38:43.069 --> 00:38:45.303 But yeah, you do have to wonder a little bit about some of the practices. 00:38:45.303 --> 00:38:49.383 It does seem like I tried out connecting mine to Cloudflare just to see what 00:38:49.383 --> 00:38:51.787 that was like so it could sort of manage some things for it. 00:38:52.170 --> 00:38:55.173 And you can revoke the connection really easily. You just put in one sort of 00:38:55.173 --> 00:38:57.691 API key. You can scope the API key like normal. 00:38:57.992 --> 00:39:01.363 I think the connector there mostly is just to keep that key out of the Muse 00:39:01.363 --> 00:39:03.483 environment totally so that it can be a proxy for it. 00:39:03.483 --> 00:39:08.163 Yeah, they have a little vault for your API keys and stuff. So the LLM can't 00:39:08.163 --> 00:39:10.833 see the keys and supposedly they can't see the keys. 00:39:10.833 --> 00:39:15.223 So it's like a mix of good practices with a mix of bad practices by getting 00:39:15.223 --> 00:39:16.973 you to dump all your data in there in the first place. 00:39:16.973 --> 00:39:24.043 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that is, you know, the new privacy challenge that we 00:39:24.043 --> 00:39:25.293 are entering into is these things. 00:39:25.293 --> 00:39:25.773 Oh, gosh. 00:39:25.773 --> 00:39:27.894 And they... 00:39:31.263 --> 00:39:38.013 They go further than you would expect. I shared the RSS feed with Muse to have 00:39:38.013 --> 00:39:41.890 it find something in the RSS feed for LUP. Or no, I can't remember. 00:39:43.213 --> 00:39:47.711 I never shared it at the Clanker Therapy feed or any of the URLs for that stuff. 00:39:49.643 --> 00:39:52.605 But we had talked about Clanker Therapy because I showed it on the stream. 00:39:53.150 --> 00:39:58.787 And it later just said, hey, by the way, I verified Clanker Therapy published on YouTube. 00:39:59.269 --> 00:40:01.903 it's on extras.show and I see the files are on R2. 00:40:04.743 --> 00:40:06.383 Oh yeah didn't ask it to do. 00:40:06.383 --> 00:40:09.723 That didn't ask it to do that but it knows that that's how TWIB and LUP work 00:40:09.723 --> 00:40:14.977 because it knows about and it knew we were talking and so it just kind of tries to be helpful. 00:40:15.093 --> 00:40:17.823 And they've got some background crons which it seems like you can list so maybe 00:40:17.823 --> 00:40:21.483 you can disable too I haven't actually tried that where it does go do dreaming 00:40:21.483 --> 00:40:24.921 and then goes try to come up with like helpful tips or things it can do for you. 00:40:26.395 --> 00:40:30.493 I guess at the end I'll wrap it with to just answer your question with a button 00:40:30.493 --> 00:40:36.345 is so there was those constraints but what surprised me was is that these platforms let us do this. 00:40:36.989 --> 00:40:41.283 Because a lot of this is happening. I'm having Muse and I'm having Dots and Grok. 00:40:42.562 --> 00:40:45.543 They're the ones that are using the machine. So if I ask Dot to install Nix 00:40:45.543 --> 00:40:48.209 or I ask Muse to install Nix, it's just doing it. 00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:51.753 It's not telling me no, it's doing it and setting it up and it's helping me 00:40:51.753 --> 00:40:54.148 figure out how to make it persist and work with that constraint. 00:40:55.204 --> 00:40:58.473 I I'm really appreciating what's, 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:05.264 What they've released to the public says about how these specific companies 00:41:05.392 --> 00:41:11.319 understand or use Linux internally, because how they've constructed each of 00:41:11.319 --> 00:41:14.285 these, I don't know, ephemeral computes, or I don't know what we're calling these things, 00:41:16.247 --> 00:41:21.169 whether they've used modern Linux technologies or they just threw an XFCE desktop 00:41:21.169 --> 00:41:24.859 at you says a lot about what we don't get to see on the inside, 00:41:24.859 --> 00:41:29.449 which is some of their technology that they're running probably on the everyday. 00:41:29.449 --> 00:41:31.770 and how sophisticated they are. 00:41:32.792 --> 00:41:35.299 Yeah, that's a great point. I think you can definitely see in particular, 00:41:35.299 --> 00:41:40.499 I've used Muse here the most, you can really see the flavor of meta-engineering. 00:41:40.499 --> 00:41:43.249 And as we know, regardless of if you like their products, they've done a lot 00:41:43.249 --> 00:41:46.799 of really good Linux and SystemD and sort of Linux server work. 00:41:46.799 --> 00:41:47.339 And you see it in there. 00:41:47.339 --> 00:41:48.299 You definitely see it in there. 00:41:48.299 --> 00:41:49.519 And they're using ButterFS. 00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:50.919 Yeah, OverlayFS and all kinds of stuff. 00:41:51.619 --> 00:41:56.139 They're big supporters of ButterFS. And so that stuff, those open-source projects 00:41:56.139 --> 00:41:59.382 they've contributed to are all at work in their VM. 00:41:59.928 --> 00:42:03.580 So that's interesting. I think maybe I found Muse the most technically interesting. 00:42:04.009 --> 00:42:06.799 I think Dots has the most horsepower, and, 00:42:10.267 --> 00:42:13.622 Grok lets you do the most, but it's expensive. You've got to get it from a certified vendor. 00:42:14.619 --> 00:42:17.865 And nothing beats Hermes, even if you've got to use a remote API. 00:42:18.151 --> 00:42:22.459 But I do love free compute, and I do think I'll leave it doing some jobs for 00:42:22.459 --> 00:42:24.809 me, doing just little things that don't really matter. 00:42:25.644 --> 00:42:28.889 You know it could also be something right where like google rolled out the not 00:42:28.889 --> 00:42:31.188 great ai version of google search right but, 00:42:31.739 --> 00:42:34.349 the musebot searches very competently so if it's something you would put into 00:42:34.349 --> 00:42:37.499 a public search engine and you don't mind medicine that you wanted to search 00:42:37.499 --> 00:42:41.149 for it could go you know pull up the economic news of the day no problem. 00:42:41.149 --> 00:42:45.189 That's true that's true and i'll happily keep doing it for you every day and send you a. 00:42:45.189 --> 00:42:48.759 Report they can even make quote-unquote podcasts. 00:42:52.415 --> 00:42:56.120 Hey, I want to say thanks to Connecting Internet. Head on over to their website. 00:42:56.120 --> 00:43:00.234 Check them out at ConnectingInternet.com and use the promo code JUPITER35. 00:43:00.722 --> 00:43:03.670 They don't officially sponsor the show, but they hooked me up with some hardware 00:43:03.670 --> 00:43:07.000 a while ago, and I just, every time I use it, I'm so grateful, 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:10.730 and I think I should mention it. I checked JUPITER35. JUPITER35 is our promo code. 00:43:11.456 --> 00:43:15.840 And what I love about them is in the U.S. and in Canada, they ride on all of 00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:19.650 the networks, auto-switches between the network that has the strongest signal 00:43:19.650 --> 00:43:21.243 in your area. You don't got a FUTZ. 00:43:21.690 --> 00:43:26.710 so great they have truly unlimited plans which is really really rare in cellular 00:43:26.710 --> 00:43:29.341 which includes you can buy a priority access plan, 00:43:29.834 --> 00:43:32.940 also very rare in cellular and then i think my new favorite thing that they 00:43:32.940 --> 00:43:38.373 have is they have that 39 a month backup plan that comes with an open wrt box 00:43:38.588 --> 00:43:40.787 that does automatic failover and health checks, 00:43:41.756 --> 00:43:45.080 so you can just you know if you got you've got if you need a connectivity just 00:43:45.080 --> 00:43:46.783 add that you're good to go um, 00:43:48.194 --> 00:43:51.456 i like their seven antenna if you're going to just put something in. 00:43:51.996 --> 00:43:56.623 Jeff and Brent, they mounted the seven antenna beast on the top of my barn. 00:43:57.186 --> 00:44:00.030 And every time I look up at there, it's just glorious internet. 00:44:00.414 --> 00:44:01.000 And you think of us. 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:01.560 Right? 00:44:01.560 --> 00:44:04.750 Now, did the installers come for free with this package or is that extra? 00:44:04.750 --> 00:44:08.860 You got to email Brent on that one. No contract, 14 day money back. 00:44:08.860 --> 00:44:13.740 Go to ConnectInInternet.com and use the promo code Jupiter35 to get $35 off 00:44:13.740 --> 00:44:15.692 your order. And we will put a link in the show notes. 00:44:16.122 --> 00:44:20.058 That is That's connectininternet.com and the promo code JUPITER35. 00:44:22.886 --> 00:44:26.107 Well, this week we found a couple musings in our inbox. 00:44:26.456 --> 00:44:31.263 Abe writes in, hey gents, love your show. You're doing an unreal job walking 00:44:31.263 --> 00:44:33.172 all the lines that need to be walked. 00:44:33.602 --> 00:44:37.993 I can't imagine how hard that can be these days. You've struck a great balance 00:44:37.993 --> 00:44:41.489 with all the things, so here's a message to say, keep it up. 00:44:42.790 --> 00:44:48.740 On another note, I was a self-hosted listener for almost since the beginning 00:44:48.972 --> 00:44:52.873 and reluctantly moved over to Linux Unplugged as I didn't think there'd be much 00:44:52.873 --> 00:44:54.957 content that would be up my alley. 00:44:55.921 --> 00:44:59.753 But I drive so much that I thought I'd give it a try and my, was I wrong? 00:44:59.753 --> 00:45:04.543 Since moving over to Linux Unplugged, I've started hosting my company websites 00:45:04.543 --> 00:45:11.033 at home, moved my Windows server over to Brockmox, and bought a GPU for some 00:45:11.033 --> 00:45:12.623 small machine learning tasks. 00:45:12.623 --> 00:45:13.846 Nicely done. 00:45:14.601 --> 00:45:19.263 After several years of listening, I finally decided to just pull over become 00:45:19.263 --> 00:45:24.290 a member and send out this a boost i have some feedback for you that i hope 00:45:24.458 --> 00:45:26.559 is taken as constructive though, 00:45:27.430 --> 00:45:30.936 the web boost process could have been a bit more obvious, 00:45:31.732 --> 00:45:36.303 yeah i first just googled linux unplugged which came up with your website of 00:45:36.303 --> 00:45:41.273 course but i couldn't find where to send a boost i finally stumbled my way over 00:45:41.273 --> 00:45:43.822 to jupiter hold on there is an irony. 00:45:45.407 --> 00:45:50.173 I have said it on air a few times. I do say boost.jupiterbroadcasting.com a few times. 00:45:50.521 --> 00:45:54.463 And I just want to point out, the reason why I say this stuff multiple times, 00:45:55.003 --> 00:45:57.806 is because we get this kind of feedback all the time where people still don't 00:45:57.806 --> 00:46:02.101 know the URL, even though I say it two or three times an episode, every episode. 00:46:02.358 --> 00:46:06.576 So if you ever wonder why I repeat myself, listeners, this is Exhibit A. 00:46:06.876 --> 00:46:08.296 Okay? In my defense. Continue on. 00:46:08.801 --> 00:46:12.596 Okay, let me continue. I finally stumbled my way over to jupiterbroadcasting.com 00:46:12.596 --> 00:46:14.956 where there is a boost link at the top. Amazing. 00:46:15.316 --> 00:46:18.831 though that page still doesn't have an obvious link to send a web boost. 00:46:19.121 --> 00:46:22.376 So I finally found boost.jupiterbroadcasting.com and realized I've heard you 00:46:22.376 --> 00:46:24.794 say that URL about a hundred times on the show. 00:46:26.343 --> 00:46:29.369 I imagine if I set out to send a boost using my phone, 00:46:31.614 --> 00:46:36.650 like some of the 2000s kids, I would have just followed the link in the show notes. 00:46:37.242 --> 00:46:41.699 But I'm a middle-aged, and sending a boost struck me as a big-screen activity, 00:46:41.699 --> 00:46:43.629 like booking flights or sending email. 00:46:43.629 --> 00:46:44.075 I get that. 00:46:45.260 --> 00:46:49.529 Anyway, in my self-serving interest, if you made this process a bit more streamlined, 00:46:49.529 --> 00:46:54.669 more one-off boosts may come through, and you'll continue making content that we all love so much. 00:46:55.940 --> 00:47:01.089 i'm sending a concurrent boost now but just couldn't put it all into that 300 00:47:01.089 --> 00:47:05.729 characters oh and by the way brent i'm a fellow canadian currently typing this 00:47:05.729 --> 00:47:08.539 from the shoulder of the road on highway 3 in bc. 00:47:08.539 --> 00:47:09.919 Like oh you know. 00:47:09.919 --> 00:47:14.289 Where that is highway 3 yeah yeah yeah major highway actually yeah i mean it's 00:47:14.289 --> 00:47:15.589 uh that was good feedback. 00:47:16.169 --> 00:47:20.699 And we have fixed it right is it on the public site yep all right yeah if you go. 00:47:20.699 --> 00:47:24.139 To uh jupiter broadcasting.com slash boost now it It just goes to the right side. 00:47:24.139 --> 00:47:26.769 Or if you click the boost link at the top of the website, instead of telling 00:47:26.769 --> 00:47:28.869 you what a boost is, it just takes you to the boost website now, 00:47:28.869 --> 00:47:31.169 which we just had to work out. 00:47:31.169 --> 00:47:35.349 But that was good feedback. I'll take hybrid sarcasm. Hybrid sarcasm writes 00:47:35.349 --> 00:47:39.949 in to me, thank you, Chris, for the rant about Google TV and Android set-top boxes. 00:47:40.823 --> 00:47:45.649 This is, I think, in the bootleg, and my short version is the reason why Android 00:47:45.649 --> 00:47:50.599 TV is bad is your fault, because you've bought them, and we've enabled them. 00:47:50.703 --> 00:47:52.851 I just bought a new one, and I cannot believe how bad it is. 00:47:53.298 --> 00:47:56.229 Uh, I'm ashamed that I've paid them any money for anything that's gone towards 00:47:56.229 --> 00:47:58.296 Google TV at all. I can't believe it's such a bad product. 00:47:58.929 --> 00:48:02.534 Uh, hybrid rights. I'm not ashamed of being an Apple ecosystem guy. 00:48:02.847 --> 00:48:06.330 I like my iPhone and my Apple watch. And because that I enjoy the Apple TV. 00:48:06.696 --> 00:48:09.579 When I decided that my commitment to jellyfin was strong enough to warrant a 00:48:09.579 --> 00:48:13.269 proper TV client, I replaced my Apple TV with a Google TV box running Android 00:48:13.269 --> 00:48:15.752 14. Uh, yes, I have been down this route myself. 00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:22.336 I mean, because early on, too, like the Jellyfin apps on Apple TV were not very good. 00:48:22.585 --> 00:48:25.105 And the main Jellyfin app was not nearly as good as the Android Jellyfin app. 00:48:26.443 --> 00:48:30.666 He said, you took greater offense to the Google-filled interface than I did. 00:48:31.135 --> 00:48:34.483 I found the app-only mode to be sufficient for our needs, and it meant I didn't 00:48:34.483 --> 00:48:37.450 have to bother with the launcher that may or may not launch upon reboot. 00:48:39.683 --> 00:48:42.753 And I have to reboot this thing a lot, he says. It randomly wakes up that Google 00:48:42.753 --> 00:48:47.133 TV would have incredibly garbled audio, like Michael Bay Transformers chomping 00:48:47.133 --> 00:48:49.153 on another Michael Bay Transformer kind of audio. 00:48:49.351 --> 00:48:52.143 And the inferior thing is you wouldn't know until you'd already started playing 00:48:52.143 --> 00:48:54.842 your media, a movie, or whatever a YouTube clip it might be. 00:48:55.307 --> 00:48:58.773 The only known solution based on my non-agent searching was to restart the whole 00:48:58.773 --> 00:49:02.663 Google TV unit, and a reboot takes long enough already before navigating the 00:49:02.663 --> 00:49:06.017 various clicks, then selections just to have the system restart option. Oh, I know. 00:49:07.213 --> 00:49:10.707 My wife found it easier to turn the power strip off and back on again, 00:49:11.491 --> 00:49:13.627 and this highlights my frustration with Android in general. 00:49:14.161 --> 00:49:16.823 Blame it on varied hardware support, vague support boundaries, 00:49:16.823 --> 00:49:19.823 etc. The bottom line is that you never really know what you're going to get 00:49:19.823 --> 00:49:21.330 when you pick up an Android-powered device. 00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:25.388 No new Android image was coming to fix this audio bug, so I just had to deal with it. 00:49:26.009 --> 00:49:29.673 I never had an Apple device with such an infuriating bug. That's why I spent 00:49:29.673 --> 00:49:34.135 $150 on a new Apple TV, not $300, and $16 on Infuse. 00:49:34.477 --> 00:49:39.708 My family's media viewing experience is top-notch again thanks to Apple, Jellyfin, and Infuse. 00:49:41.449 --> 00:49:41.698 Yeah. 00:49:42.078 --> 00:49:46.262 I've been very disappointed with the Google TV HLS implementation recently. 00:49:46.430 --> 00:49:48.688 It's been, I have an older one, but it's been mostly fine. 00:49:49.129 --> 00:49:51.748 Not as slow as some of the vendor implementations or anything. 00:49:51.748 --> 00:49:53.675 So for that perspective, it's been fine. 00:49:54.558 --> 00:49:57.418 YouTube works great. Jellyfin works great, which is most of these use cases. 00:49:57.718 --> 00:50:02.168 But boy, it hits some HLS stuff that just the old Chromecast line, 00:50:02.168 --> 00:50:05.028 you know, the Gen 2 stuff had no problem with. 00:50:05.028 --> 00:50:05.488 Oh, really? 00:50:05.488 --> 00:50:05.828 Yeah. 00:50:05.828 --> 00:50:06.518 Oh, that's a bummer. 00:50:06.938 --> 00:50:11.966 It's like, how did you get worse? Or, like, why is HLS.js in my Firefox tab, 00:50:12.494 --> 00:50:15.507 better than a device that's, like, whole job is to play streaming media? 00:50:16.198 --> 00:50:21.469 It's just Google TV is insufferably bad, and it is the weakest link in the media TV setup. 00:50:22.858 --> 00:50:24.298 And the Rokus are getting worse. 00:50:24.298 --> 00:50:28.708 Yeah. Infuse is good. There's a cost to it. Moonfin is getting better. 00:50:28.708 --> 00:50:31.289 I still don't think it's quite as smooth on iOS as I would like, 00:50:31.806 --> 00:50:33.931 but Moonfin's another option to look at as well. 00:50:34.715 --> 00:50:41.088 but uh yeah i don't know what to do because i've got two kid tvs and i've got 00:50:41.088 --> 00:50:43.392 an nvidia shield on one and a yaome, 00:50:44.344 --> 00:50:48.728 google tv on the other and they're both awful and they're really crappy when 00:50:48.728 --> 00:50:51.608 they wake up about reconnecting to the wi-fi and i don't know what that's about 00:50:51.608 --> 00:50:55.708 so then that screws up tail tail scale and that doesn't reconnect jellyfin doesn't 00:50:55.708 --> 00:50:58.998 work even when they get back on the wi-fi and it's real bad. 00:50:58.998 --> 00:51:03.418 Boys it sounds like we are primed for like little tiny computers that are cheap 00:51:03.418 --> 00:51:07.008 that we can just run our own software on that accomplishes this? 00:51:07.008 --> 00:51:08.819 Why do we have to rely on the big guys? 00:51:09.568 --> 00:51:12.614 What we need is like a headless Jellyfin Linux environment. 00:51:13.050 --> 00:51:15.524 On an old phone that you might have around that runs Linux? 00:51:16.121 --> 00:51:21.496 Just Linux boots to Jellyfin, right? It's like a Wayland desktop that's just Jellyfin. 00:51:21.642 --> 00:51:24.258 And you just plug it in, you power it on, and it boots. 00:51:24.258 --> 00:51:25.814 All it is is Jellyfin, ready to go. 00:51:26.272 --> 00:51:29.348 Pipewire for the audio, so the audio just freaking works. 00:51:29.348 --> 00:51:30.231 What more do you need? 00:51:31.386 --> 00:51:32.998 Can anybody build this? Can we 00:51:32.998 --> 00:51:35.549 do this? Is there a decent Jellyfin app for Linux that we could boot to? 00:51:36.315 --> 00:51:39.473 Anyways, let us know. Boost.JubiterBroadcasting.com, 00:51:44.418 --> 00:51:50.797 And Devator, or Dev2R, boosts in as our baller booster. Get ready for this, 00:51:50.797 --> 00:51:52.266 boys. Buckle up. Here we go. 00:51:54.887 --> 00:51:56.267 266,806 Satoshis. 00:51:57.007 --> 00:51:57.618 Wow. 00:52:09.087 --> 00:52:13.565 So, not to take away, but we do, I think, Dev here wanted to be transparent. 00:52:14.093 --> 00:52:21.378 that this is a bit of an inflated number. It's closer probably to like 140 because- Split players? Yeah. 00:52:22.547 --> 00:52:24.607 The first three had four out of five notes fail. 00:52:24.607 --> 00:52:25.187 Dang it. 00:52:25.187 --> 00:52:28.717 But they stuck with it to keep boosting until they all worked. 00:52:28.717 --> 00:52:32.743 And that's why it looks so big. So like, I think the value is definitely there. 00:52:32.964 --> 00:52:37.997 Tess, this is, he says, here is to the Texas brisket fund. 00:52:37.997 --> 00:52:39.077 Which we appreciate. 00:52:39.077 --> 00:52:43.087 Yes. I'm looking forward to that. I'm going to get Brent to eat so much meat. 00:52:44.087 --> 00:52:46.100 Yeah, I'm on a diet right now just in preparation. 00:52:47.006 --> 00:52:49.206 Yep, get ready. You're going to have macaroni and cheese as well. 00:52:51.458 --> 00:52:55.247 Well, hybrid sarcasm comes in with 250,000. 00:52:55.247 --> 00:52:56.108 Sacks. Oh, all right. 00:53:00.346 --> 00:53:01.997 Also fantastic. 00:53:01.997 --> 00:53:06.017 Baller. No message found, but that's okay. We know you, hybrid. 00:53:06.017 --> 00:53:06.487 Okay. 00:53:06.487 --> 00:53:08.417 And we appreciate it. That's a lot of value. 00:53:08.417 --> 00:53:10.377 It is. Thank you, sir. Perfect. True. 00:53:10.824 --> 00:53:15.764 We have here a derivation dingus. with 76,500 sets. 00:53:16.118 --> 00:53:16.756 Oh! 00:53:22.143 --> 00:53:27.357 I loved the Clanker Therapy stream. Personally, I enjoyed it even more this 00:53:27.357 --> 00:53:29.736 time around since it was less beginner focused. 00:53:30.212 --> 00:53:32.766 I would love for them to be a more regular thing. 00:53:33.248 --> 00:53:34.136 Yeah, we are working on that. 00:53:34.432 --> 00:53:37.217 Unfortunately, I only caught some of the live stream this time, 00:53:37.217 --> 00:53:41.177 but I still watch the entire recording and haven't stopped tinkering with Hermes 00:53:41.177 --> 00:53:42.884 and OpenCord ever since. 00:53:43.099 --> 00:53:43.813 Yes. 00:53:44.481 --> 00:53:48.087 Another message here from Dingus. Another fantastic episode, 00:53:48.087 --> 00:53:52.307 gents. This episode was packed with stuff I want to try. I'm definitely going 00:53:52.307 --> 00:53:54.564 to check out Nixar and Nixflex. 00:53:55.510 --> 00:53:59.632 Chris's entire media stack always makes me jealous. Very well done. 00:54:00.746 --> 00:54:05.089 And then there's one last message here for Wes. Hey, Wes, thanks for the Fluxcast 00:54:05.216 --> 00:54:07.550 and OpenCodeFlakes. Both are working great for me. 00:54:08.670 --> 00:54:09.627 You got uses of your Flake. 00:54:09.627 --> 00:54:10.707 Wes. Oh, hey, that's great. 00:54:10.707 --> 00:54:11.907 Wes, you got some Flake users. 00:54:11.907 --> 00:54:16.733 I'm glad it could be useful. That's part of the goal of, you know, the magic Flakes. 00:54:19.183 --> 00:54:22.711 I also am a Wes Flake user. At least on a couple of my systems. 00:54:23.489 --> 00:54:27.094 Tomato comes in with a row of McDucks, 22,222 sats. 00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:34.037 Been busy and still catching up on the show, but I wanted to send some sats to help with Texas. 00:54:34.420 --> 00:54:37.257 Coverage of these community events is a great thing, and I'm looking forward 00:54:37.257 --> 00:54:41.299 to the episode. Thank you, Tomato. We really appreciate that. We feel like it is too. 00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:46.937 We're happy to step up and make it happen if we can do it without bankrupting 00:54:46.937 --> 00:54:48.938 ourselves. Shout out to TechDev. 00:54:49.751 --> 00:54:52.137 Abe comes in with 3,003 sets, 00:54:54.951 --> 00:54:59.497 As promised, we got the follow-up. Came from self-hosted, is like in the loop, 00:54:59.497 --> 00:55:02.077 pulled over on the side of Highway 3 in BC to become a member, 00:55:02.077 --> 00:55:03.334 which we sure appreciate. 00:55:03.734 --> 00:55:05.327 Thank you. Thank you very much. 00:55:05.327 --> 00:55:06.462 Do it safely. 00:55:09.104 --> 00:55:13.707 By the way, did PayPal ever unlock your funds? I sent some sats that way last year. 00:55:14.757 --> 00:55:17.057 We didn't get some of the fiat back, although they still have it. 00:55:18.331 --> 00:55:19.597 They still have it. But it's only 00:55:19.597 --> 00:55:22.157 a couple hundred dollars. I think it's probably about $300, $400 worth. 00:55:22.900 --> 00:55:24.682 So it is something I have to go through. 00:55:24.874 --> 00:55:26.737 They're going to give you interest, right, when you get it unlocked? 00:55:27.109 --> 00:55:30.121 Oh, they want me to fill out 17 documents to prove who I am. 00:55:30.876 --> 00:55:34.037 Never again. You know, I wanted to do it. I thought it'd be easy. 00:55:34.377 --> 00:55:35.697 Try to make it easy for folks. Yeah. 00:55:35.697 --> 00:55:36.507 It was bad. 00:55:38.649 --> 00:55:40.152 It was bad. It was bad. 00:55:42.828 --> 00:55:46.143 Bearded Tech? Bearded Tech comes in with 6,643 Satoshis. 00:55:47.182 --> 00:55:49.777 Thanks again for having me on the pre-show. Great episode. Keep up the great 00:55:49.777 --> 00:55:55.112 work, as always. P.S. This is a zip code boost. if you multiply it by 15. 00:55:55.677 --> 00:55:57.370 That's a math boost. 00:55:59.193 --> 00:56:02.017 All right, here's the, I kept the, here you go. I kept it for you, Wes. 00:56:02.017 --> 00:56:02.547 Oh, thanks. 00:56:02.547 --> 00:56:04.075 Oh, it's been a while. It's a little dusty there, Wes. 00:56:05.346 --> 00:56:09.868 The old bearded tech. So six, six, four, three times 15. 00:56:10.536 --> 00:56:12.357 Yeah, can you do that in your head for me? 00:56:12.857 --> 00:56:16.257 Wes, you're the guy that likes math. I hate it. 00:56:17.177 --> 00:56:18.137 When have you ever said that? 00:56:18.137 --> 00:56:21.007 I feel like the math says northward. That's what I'm feeling. 00:56:21.007 --> 00:56:26.190 Yeah, okay. Okay, so 6-6-4-3 by 15 would be 99,645. 00:56:27.997 --> 00:56:29.567 You got any senses for where that is? 00:56:29.567 --> 00:56:32.942 Smells like Alaska. Smells like Alaska. 00:56:33.447 --> 00:56:38.189 You smell that? Kind of like seawater and fish and a little bit too much bird poop? 00:56:39.194 --> 00:56:41.677 You would be right. Oh, really? That is Palmer, Alaska. 00:56:42.537 --> 00:56:43.097 There you go. 00:56:43.097 --> 00:56:43.652 Nice. 00:56:43.878 --> 00:56:46.282 Thank you, Bearded Tech. Appreciate you. 00:56:47.977 --> 00:56:50.235 We got Gene Bean boosted in with the row of ducks. 00:56:51.873 --> 00:56:56.134 You all have any thoughts about Hindsight as memory for Hermes and coding sessions both? 00:56:56.470 --> 00:57:00.432 I'm trying out the coding agent plugin that makes a bake for each repo I work 00:57:00.432 --> 00:57:05.056 in, plus using a custom skill to promote select things like fleet-wide info to a shared bank. 00:57:05.567 --> 00:57:07.652 I'm using the self-hosted version on my LAN. 00:57:07.652 --> 00:57:11.621 Nice, Gene. Well, I'll tell you what, Gene. Tell you what, Gene. 00:57:12.533 --> 00:57:16.782 I use Hindsight with my Hermes agents, and it seems to be pretty useful. It does. 00:57:17.282 --> 00:57:19.052 And the nice thing I like is depending on the chat interface, 00:57:19.052 --> 00:57:22.162 I can see when they're calling Hindsight too, and I can see that they do use it. 00:57:24.159 --> 00:57:27.502 I don't think it would be as useful in my OpenCode sessions because one of the 00:57:27.502 --> 00:57:32.344 reasons I like to go to OpenCode is kind of a clean, clear, context-focused. 00:57:33.522 --> 00:57:36.988 But, you know, I can see their values as well, I suppose. 00:57:37.348 --> 00:57:40.112 I feel like a lot of things I would do with hindsight in OpenCode I could just 00:57:40.112 --> 00:57:42.082 also probably define in a markdown document. 00:57:43.344 --> 00:57:44.743 Your thoughts on a memory system? 00:57:45.150 --> 00:57:49.372 Yeah, I suppose it depends on how much stuff you have. Do you customize it? 00:57:49.372 --> 00:57:52.532 Is it worth having some sort of index lookup if you're doing it per project? 00:57:52.532 --> 00:57:53.782 I think often open code gets used 00:57:53.782 --> 00:57:57.503 for sort of per project stuff that you intentionally want to restrict. 00:57:57.973 --> 00:58:00.762 But if you do have a fair amount of crosscutting stuff concerning maybe fleet 00:58:00.762 --> 00:58:03.012 deployment information, I could definitely imagine it. 00:58:03.022 --> 00:58:07.382 You just kind of have to decide, are you using it for, how many banks are you 00:58:07.382 --> 00:58:11.362 doing? And then what are you letting, what are you putting into context by default 00:58:11.362 --> 00:58:12.718 is probably mostly what it comes down to. 00:58:13.274 --> 00:58:18.652 But yeah, it's great how easy various memory solutions, like there's a ton of 00:58:18.652 --> 00:58:20.972 them. They're all pretty easy to install in a lot of places. 00:58:20.972 --> 00:58:25.892 They often have sort of MCPs or APIs or CLIs to get access to. 00:58:25.892 --> 00:58:27.782 Now, that could be the way to go. 00:58:28.222 --> 00:58:29.772 Right. There's things like QMD, which is real easy. 00:58:29.802 --> 00:58:33.462 Hindsight with the Hermes agents. And then if you want your open code session, 00:58:34.682 --> 00:58:38.322 maybe you turn on, because you can turn MCPs on and off if you do slash MCPs, 00:58:38.972 --> 00:58:41.232 in open code. You could just turn it on when you need it, turn it off, 00:58:41.232 --> 00:58:42.618 and use Hindsight via the MCP. 00:58:43.454 --> 00:58:43.842 Nice. 00:58:43.922 --> 00:58:44.487 That could work. 00:58:45.242 --> 00:58:48.512 Also, Gene, just appreciate, love it when you send in stuff you're working on. 00:58:48.512 --> 00:58:49.722 because you're usually working on something cool. 00:58:50.322 --> 00:58:50.892 Appreciate you. 00:58:50.892 --> 00:58:52.742 We have a new tool where you can tell us what you're working on. 00:58:55.498 --> 00:58:58.946 Um, Magbot comes in with 2,500 sets. 00:59:01.500 --> 00:59:06.706 I came here to chew fries and surprise the guys and I'm all out of fries. 00:59:06.706 --> 00:59:08.037 You gotta, now you gotta say it like this. 00:59:08.321 --> 00:59:08.623 All right. 00:59:09.506 --> 00:59:14.146 I came here to chew fries and surprise the guys and I'm all out of fries. 00:59:16.534 --> 00:59:18.006 It's Duke Nukem, dude. It's a Duke, well. 00:59:18.006 --> 00:59:19.228 And I missed that. 00:59:19.466 --> 00:59:21.439 It's another, it's a movie reference too, but it's a Duke Nukem reference. 00:59:21.631 --> 00:59:22.066 Yeah. 00:59:22.066 --> 00:59:25.296 I get you, Mayhem. I get you where you're coming from. All right. 00:59:25.296 --> 00:59:30.292 let's go to the fiat boost skookum comes in with thirty dollars of the fiats, 00:59:31.441 --> 00:59:35.400 and he says have a safe trip to texas thank you very much skookum appreciate you. 00:59:36.294 --> 00:59:41.066 Uh quick interruption just you know baller booster hybrid over here says i'm 00:59:41.066 --> 00:59:45.336 really enjoying the new version of jellyfin mpv shim that could be the auto 00:59:45.336 --> 00:59:48.596 start linux app which i think might be a pretty good. 00:59:48.596 --> 00:59:51.799 Idea you know there's probably also i know somebody's gonna probably say you could do it with cody, 00:59:54.075 --> 00:59:56.002 You could probably run Jellyfin inside Kodi. 00:59:56.462 --> 00:59:59.132 Yeah, true. Or it can talk to the library as well. 00:59:59.132 --> 01:00:02.992 And I could probably point Kodi at my dispatcher live TV stuff too, 01:00:03.357 --> 01:00:06.620 right? Kodi probably does that. I don't remember. 01:00:07.008 --> 01:00:08.842 Yeah, I haven't used it for a while. 01:00:08.842 --> 01:00:13.369 But it looks exactly the same almost. So what I should really try is Kodi, but I don't want to. 01:00:13.758 --> 01:00:17.182 Anonymous came in with two free member boosts. 01:00:17.624 --> 01:00:21.342 Your episode triggered some thoughts for me. I don't think that LMs are like 01:00:21.342 --> 01:00:22.993 transitioning to digital photography. 01:00:23.342 --> 01:00:25.739 I think it's more like training your outsourced replacement. 01:00:26.244 --> 01:00:30.842 I also wonder how much banning LLMs is about othering people. 300 isn't enough. 01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:35.542 Oh, 300 notes. I'm a longtime listener since the land days, and your AI coverage 01:00:35.542 --> 01:00:38.372 is fantastic, balanced, and practical. On the flip side, personally, 01:00:38.372 --> 01:00:40.356 I have no interest in Hyperland Omarcha coverage. 01:00:40.571 --> 01:00:43.398 Just a FYI signal. Appreciate what you do. Keep up the great show. 01:00:44.565 --> 01:00:47.562 Well, haven't you heard the good word about Hyperland? No, I get it. 01:00:47.562 --> 01:00:49.766 It's pretty niche, right? It's pretty niche. 01:00:50.039 --> 01:00:51.912 Desktop stuff's already a little niche. 01:00:51.912 --> 01:00:57.173 Although I would say pretty great and worth it, but I, yeah, 01:00:57.353 --> 01:00:57.997 I see what you're saying. 01:00:58.862 --> 01:01:05.167 I'm also noticing this might be, well, not quite a zip code boost, but a postal code boost. 01:01:07.227 --> 01:01:08.812 It's a free member boost. What are you talking about? What do you see? 01:01:08.902 --> 01:01:16.542 Oh yeah, there's a K1B1A1 there, which I recognize as perhaps a Canadian postal 01:01:16.542 --> 01:01:18.782 code, but maybe, I don't know, the UK does the same. 01:01:19.322 --> 01:01:20.912 I thought it was a ham, I thought it was a ham sign. 01:01:20.912 --> 01:01:22.042 That's what I thought it might be, too. 01:01:22.522 --> 01:01:24.850 I think you might just have to pull out the map, Wes. I can help you if you need. 01:01:25.564 --> 01:01:27.050 Yeah, I don't have the Canadian edition. 01:01:27.662 --> 01:01:31.092 Oh. I left that with you when we visited. It does say. I got that in my bag 01:01:31.092 --> 01:01:33.592 here. Gook says it is a Canadian postcode. 01:01:33.592 --> 01:01:34.232 All right, there we go. 01:01:34.342 --> 01:01:37.002 You know what? In Ottawa. In Ottawa. 01:01:37.522 --> 01:01:40.402 It's not. In Ottawa. Oh, yeah, Gloucester. Mmm. Delicious. 01:01:40.402 --> 01:01:41.034 Thank you, Anonymous. 01:01:41.951 --> 01:01:45.147 Good spot there, Brantley. Yeah, good spot. K-Mogged came in. 01:01:45.147 --> 01:01:47.658 My agents could barely escape out of a paper bag. 01:01:48.006 --> 01:01:50.947 What kind of precautions are you guys putting in place? Chris mentions he wants 01:01:50.947 --> 01:01:54.484 his agents to have access to everything. My coworker mentioned not giving them Git. 01:01:54.943 --> 01:01:58.737 So can they just Git clone a random repo that contains an exploit? Thoughts. 01:02:01.397 --> 01:02:06.337 It's funny. It's funny because I fought and fought and fought to get these things. 01:02:07.257 --> 01:02:12.147 They're so cautious now. they clearly have the fear of God instilled them that 01:02:12.147 --> 01:02:15.237 they're going to delete something. Of course, every now and then they do. 01:02:15.257 --> 01:02:15.927 This is true. 01:02:15.927 --> 01:02:17.134 They do every now and then. 01:02:18.357 --> 01:02:19.747 Yeah, I've definitely had them delete some things. 01:02:19.996 --> 01:02:22.794 What kind of precautions, Wes? What kind of precautions? 01:02:22.910 --> 01:02:27.705 Yeah, I mean, a lot of them come with a fair amount of approvals on by default. 01:02:28.001 --> 01:02:31.637 So you might evaluate that. It's useful to ask them to investigate their own 01:02:31.637 --> 01:02:35.317 config sometimes, see what options you have in terms of what all you can flip on. 01:02:35.317 --> 01:02:38.617 And it kind of depends on what environment you layer it on, right? 01:02:38.617 --> 01:02:43.919 So I think we both have Hermes agents that have their own virtual machines or equivalent. 01:02:44.244 --> 01:02:47.497 And so within that, I tend to give them pretty broad permissions because I want 01:02:47.497 --> 01:02:50.559 them maintaining the box, customizing their environment for what they need. 01:02:51.317 --> 01:02:57.167 I do think you want some auditing ability, right? Like you might consider where, 01:02:57.167 --> 01:02:59.087 you know, do you have some sort of proxy? 01:02:59.087 --> 01:03:01.287 Are you keeping track of like what tool calls they're making? 01:03:01.287 --> 01:03:02.407 Do you have ways to check that? 01:03:02.407 --> 01:03:04.807 Do you have ways to control it if you do want to control it? 01:03:04.807 --> 01:03:08.047 But you could also then, like, maybe you run some of your development stuff 01:03:08.047 --> 01:03:11.327 within a container and copy the repos in. 01:03:11.327 --> 01:03:14.747 You can do that pretty easily. So I think it depends on what you're worried 01:03:14.747 --> 01:03:18.427 about. Are you concerned about malicious attacks? Are you concerned about sort 01:03:18.427 --> 01:03:21.336 of accidental overrunning of unrelated data? 01:03:22.056 --> 01:03:23.497 Those can be pretty different to defend from. 01:03:23.497 --> 01:03:27.137 Yeah, and I think the sort of characterization that they're sitting there idle, 01:03:27.137 --> 01:03:30.630 sort of looking for things to do and, like, downloading repos and doing stuff is... 01:03:31.897 --> 01:03:35.907 I don't, you would have to develop a program that drives them to do that, right? 01:03:35.907 --> 01:03:39.497 They're not just going to do that on their own. Even if you put in their sole 01:03:39.497 --> 01:03:43.387 MD and their agents MD and everything and you said, I want you to run and you 01:03:43.387 --> 01:03:45.797 prompted them. You put in their sole MD and you put in their agents MD and you 01:03:45.797 --> 01:03:46.717 prompted them. I want you to 01:03:46.717 --> 01:03:50.113 run all night and download, get stuff and build it. And they would stop. 01:03:50.310 --> 01:03:52.969 They would stop 15, 20 minutes into it and they would stop. 01:03:53.236 --> 01:03:55.813 And they wouldn't proceed until you answered a question or approve something. 01:03:56.150 --> 01:03:59.667 Where they can be as clumsy. And so I think it does, if you are concerned, 01:03:59.667 --> 01:04:03.127 I would, the first thing to protect against is like have backups of the stuff 01:04:03.127 --> 01:04:04.437 on anything that they can touch. 01:04:04.957 --> 01:04:08.667 And then maybe take snapshots. You can do like, I like to do snapshot commits 01:04:08.667 --> 01:04:11.957 in Git where I take lots of frequent, you know, commits on a branch and then 01:04:11.957 --> 01:04:15.797 squash it later after the fact. So I have a fine record of what they're doing 01:04:15.797 --> 01:04:18.010 and you can do the same for your file system. You have that set up. 01:04:19.072 --> 01:04:22.347 That way it's more of like a mutable log of their actions and you don't have 01:04:22.347 --> 01:04:26.584 anything that they accidentally RM because they had too big of a glob or something like that? 01:04:26.972 --> 01:04:32.307 Big plus one to that. I think that's, I agree. And then the last thing is Wes 01:04:32.307 --> 01:04:33.800 made a joke about how he loved wrappers. 01:04:34.857 --> 01:04:38.547 So when my agents, say, for example, communicate with Home Assistant, 01:04:38.547 --> 01:04:41.461 they don't just talk directly to the MCP or the API. 01:04:41.892 --> 01:04:46.107 They do it through a wrapper, and that wrapper only allows them to do certain 01:04:46.107 --> 01:04:47.842 things, which bit me, actually, 01:04:48.717 --> 01:04:53.417 because I wanted to remove a device from my Z-Wave network, but i have implicitly 01:04:53.417 --> 01:04:57.407 disabled deletions through the wrapper so they couldn't when i was first setting 01:04:57.407 --> 01:05:00.247 this up i didn't want them to accidentally delete new devices well now i trust 01:05:00.247 --> 01:05:02.457 them enough that i'm willing to give them that access, 01:05:03.200 --> 01:05:06.507 but i have to go back and add it to my wrapper but that's one way is so they 01:05:06.507 --> 01:05:09.121 don't talk to the api directly which they absolutely could, 01:05:09.997 --> 01:05:14.807 they investigate the api in a read-only way we identify the functions they need 01:05:14.807 --> 01:05:17.787 for their immediate task and then we build a wrapper that only allows those 01:05:17.787 --> 01:05:20.907 particular tasks and then when they go to communicate with Home Assistant, 01:05:20.907 --> 01:05:22.234 they execute that particular wrapper. 01:05:22.403 --> 01:05:26.457 Yeah, that's where something like MCPs, wrappers, ways that you can offload 01:05:26.457 --> 01:05:29.767 the deterministic and perhaps dangerous stuff you want more carefully audited 01:05:29.767 --> 01:05:34.087 out of their direct hands and give them a structured interface that guides them to the right path. 01:05:34.087 --> 01:05:34.390 Yeah. 01:05:35.753 --> 01:05:39.091 That's why there's the hotness around MCPs, too. Senior Smile. 01:05:39.364 --> 01:05:41.638 Senior Smile says, I figured some listeners may be interested. 01:05:41.638 --> 01:05:47.235 Similar to ClipR, one of my favorite projects of all time is Asplayer. 01:05:47.613 --> 01:05:50.695 It allows you to clip sections in YouTube, Jellyfin, and many others. 01:05:51.165 --> 01:05:53.098 And it exports to ANKI. 01:05:53.098 --> 01:05:59.218 Anki? Anki? I used this to, oh, I think that's a note or a flashcard setup. 01:05:59.218 --> 01:06:00.118 Right? Oh. 01:06:00.598 --> 01:06:03.658 I used this to learn several languages. Nice. That's clever. 01:06:03.658 --> 01:06:06.578 It looks like it's on mobile, too. So you could clip this stuff. 01:06:06.578 --> 01:06:09.548 That's maybe the nice thing that, you know, I guess you could use TuneArt absolutely 01:06:09.548 --> 01:06:11.398 in the web browser. But this is a mobile app. 01:06:12.518 --> 01:06:14.208 I like where this is at. I would not have thought of that. 01:06:14.238 --> 01:06:14.648 Yeah. 01:06:14.648 --> 01:06:15.258 That's great. 01:06:15.258 --> 01:06:15.609 Yeah. 01:06:16.738 --> 01:06:21.598 Nefora 92 member boosts in. A long-time listener, now officially a member. 01:06:21.598 --> 01:06:23.078 Hey, thank you. 01:06:23.078 --> 01:06:27.488 Thank you much. Thanks to you two years ago, I finally gave NixOS a try. 01:06:27.488 --> 01:06:30.438 And now I feel like a preacher telling everyone how awesome it is. 01:06:30.458 --> 01:06:31.308 Funny how that happens. 01:06:31.308 --> 01:06:35.438 I'm even hosting a Nix session at work. Wow. Do you have any tips on how to 01:06:35.438 --> 01:06:38.655 approach it for people who have little to no Linux experience? 01:06:40.031 --> 01:06:41.258 Look at the Nixbook project? 01:06:41.798 --> 01:06:44.668 It depends on what their goal is. Are they trying to learn it in depth? 01:06:44.668 --> 01:06:48.438 Are they trying to just have to use a computer that happens to be implemented 01:06:48.438 --> 01:06:50.078 with NixOS? Those can be pretty different. 01:06:50.078 --> 01:06:54.068 Are they already on Linux? Could they use Nix on their existing Linux install 01:06:54.068 --> 01:06:57.258 and start to get familiar with it that way? They don't have to go full NixOS. 01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:02.918 I think TechDev is doing this during the show. Oh, he's trying to get his hands 01:07:02.918 --> 01:07:04.678 on NixOS for the first time. 01:07:05.198 --> 01:07:06.999 I don't know if you're there, TechDev. How's it going? 01:07:07.580 --> 01:07:12.928 Oh, I'm definitely here. It's not the first time, but I am trying to get this 01:07:12.928 --> 01:07:15.218 set up for a repeatable build. 01:07:15.798 --> 01:07:18.505 And there's a base project here that's for another time to talk about. 01:07:19.439 --> 01:07:21.878 But admittedly, I'm a little outside of the context here. 01:07:21.878 --> 01:07:26.539 Yeah, it's on a very cool device. Yeah, it's a unique Nix project, 01:07:26.696 --> 01:07:28.112 sort of like we've been doing recently. 01:07:29.163 --> 01:07:32.548 That's such a great point too, because there's so many ways to do that. 01:07:32.548 --> 01:07:33.801 I actually think one of the most, 01:07:34.985 --> 01:07:39.320 easiest ways to get started is on your existing desktop even if it's mac os 01:07:39.320 --> 01:07:41.010 or whatever just get started feel. 01:07:41.010 --> 01:07:44.420 For what it's like to try to use uh build stuff and install stuff with. 01:07:44.420 --> 01:07:47.850 It we get really focused on the show with nix os because once you learn the 01:07:47.850 --> 01:07:50.660 next stuff you're like oh crap i want to build my whole machine this way but 01:07:50.660 --> 01:07:51.831 you don't really have to start that way. 01:07:52.081 --> 01:07:57.340 I think my biggest recommendation would be like use your favorite bot to help 01:07:57.340 --> 01:08:04.580 you nix os is really super good at being understood by the clankers and just 01:08:04.580 --> 01:08:06.278 have it explain what it's doing. 01:08:07.350 --> 01:08:09.290 Explain what a Nix config is. 01:08:09.290 --> 01:08:12.870 Explain what the parts are, how you install stuff. It's excellent at that. 01:08:12.890 --> 01:08:16.790 Explain what this Nix error message means because a lot of people struggle with that initially. 01:08:17.023 --> 01:08:18.375 Or how do I do this thing? 01:08:19.055 --> 01:08:24.310 We used to hear a lot about like, ah, the Nix OS documentation isn't very good. 01:08:24.310 --> 01:08:28.230 I'm having a hard time understanding it, etc. etc. We haven't heard that what, 01:08:28.230 --> 01:08:32.260 in a couple years since you could just use your favorite clanker to do it, 01:08:32.260 --> 01:08:33.358 and I think that's a good thing. 01:08:35.425 --> 01:08:37.712 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, it makes quick work of those air messages. 01:08:38.723 --> 01:08:40.666 All right. Rounding us out. 01:08:41.265 --> 01:08:44.260 Adversary 17 comes in with a member boost. Anniversary writes, 01:08:44.260 --> 01:08:46.780 a little behind because life has been busy. 01:08:47.249 --> 01:08:51.488 I'm listening to this episode and this Rust FS thing, and it sounds really cool. 01:08:51.830 --> 01:08:54.847 This boost amount is how many gigabytes my server has doing nothing. 01:08:55.201 --> 01:08:57.320 So if you'd like to use some of it, you know where to find me. 01:08:57.320 --> 01:09:02.180 Oh! Oh, that's, but this is a free member boost. There was no amount. So it has. 01:09:02.180 --> 01:09:02.990 Is this a trick question? 01:09:05.330 --> 01:09:09.970 By the way, just a quick follow up. Rust FS is officially in production here at JB. 01:09:11.646 --> 01:09:12.082 All right. 01:09:12.245 --> 01:09:15.450 Yep. We have put it in production and we talked about it in our clanker therapy 01:09:15.450 --> 01:09:17.045 stream. If you are interested. 01:09:17.725 --> 01:09:20.500 But yeah, I knew when we covered it, I knew it'd be put in production. 01:09:20.500 --> 01:09:21.921 I just didn't know so soon. 01:09:22.670 --> 01:09:26.170 All right. Thank you, everybody. Thank you to those of you who streamed sats as you listened. 01:09:26.403 --> 01:09:32.028 Seven of you did so. And together you stacked a mighty 10,917 Satoshis. 01:09:33.136 --> 01:09:36.986 When you bring it all together, including our fiat boost taken at current market 01:09:36.986 --> 01:09:46.123 value for sats, this episode stacked a Texas-sized 677,232 satoshis. 01:09:50.215 --> 01:09:55.391 Powering up the show to continue for yet another week and getting us ready for Texas. 01:09:56.320 --> 01:09:59.368 Thank you, everyone. Checkpoint has been saved. 01:10:00.082 --> 01:10:03.506 And of course, you can go to boost.jupiterbroadcasting.com to boost and get 01:10:03.506 --> 01:10:05.980 a message on the show and help us get to Texas. 01:10:06.433 --> 01:10:13.724 And you can put your support on autopilot at jupiter.party or linuxunplugged.com slash membership. 01:10:15.552 --> 01:10:17.241 Couple of picks, couple of picks. This one, 01:10:19.430 --> 01:10:22.766 this one is for those of you who like to watch what your system's doing. 01:10:22.766 --> 01:10:29.340 It's called HW Monitor and it's a desktop application designed to guess what? monitor your hardware. 01:10:29.653 --> 01:10:30.726 And look nice doing it. 01:10:30.726 --> 01:10:34.556 Yeah look real nice doing it and it's been a minute since we've mentioned something 01:10:34.556 --> 01:10:37.696 like this so you know it's probably worth it if we're bringing up a tool like 01:10:37.696 --> 01:10:45.245 this on the show and it is licensed under MIT mostly written in TypeScript and your buddy Rust. 01:10:46.266 --> 01:10:47.305 I'm using Tori. 01:10:48.252 --> 01:10:49.942 I think it looks good I think it looks really good, 01:10:52.877 --> 01:10:56.427 And if you've got, you know, temperature sensors on your graphics card, 01:10:56.427 --> 01:11:01.341 on your disk, and on your GPUs and your CPUs and your ICMs and your PCMs, 01:11:01.724 --> 01:11:04.069 it'll support those. It supports your disk sensors. 01:11:04.354 --> 01:11:06.948 It'll also monitor TCP and UDP socket connections. 01:11:07.244 --> 01:11:10.247 It'll read your system info so it knows your distro, your kernel, 01:11:10.247 --> 01:11:12.388 your host name, all of your hardware information. 01:11:12.544 --> 01:11:16.683 And because SystemD does everything, it tells you about your SystemD services. 01:11:17.066 --> 01:11:19.547 Hmm. Boy. Brian, look at that. Doesn't SystemD do a lot? 01:11:19.927 --> 01:11:20.077 Yeah, very comprehensive. 01:11:20.247 --> 01:11:25.087 Including showing you recent logs. You get the system CTL status output right 01:11:25.087 --> 01:11:25.957 there. It's pretty nice. 01:11:25.957 --> 01:11:29.887 It does look good, doesn't it? I mean, you know, it's good. It's clean. 01:11:30.227 --> 01:11:32.697 If, like, for some reason you're just, like, not already in a terminal, 01:11:32.697 --> 01:11:34.987 then you could launch this, you know, until you get a terminal going. 01:11:34.987 --> 01:11:36.240 You are in a terminal, though, right? 01:11:36.847 --> 01:11:37.487 Oh, most of the time. 01:11:37.487 --> 01:11:37.747 It must be. 01:11:38.347 --> 01:11:40.623 Okay, good, because this next pick requires you be in a terminal. 01:11:41.140 --> 01:11:44.187 I was telling the boys before the show started, like, I am in the terminal all 01:11:44.527 --> 01:11:47.868 day long. That and a couple of Electron apps on Firefox. That's it these days. 01:11:48.377 --> 01:11:50.873 And so I need a way to communicate with the boys. 01:11:51.408 --> 01:11:54.477 Back in the day, if we were just boys around the neighborhood, 01:11:54.477 --> 01:11:56.034 we would have had tin cans with string. 01:11:56.696 --> 01:12:01.241 Never got to do that, though. We missed that phase of life, but we can live it again. 01:12:01.636 --> 01:12:07.747 We can relive the glory days we never had with Tin Can CLI, a serverless peer-to-peer 01:12:07.747 --> 01:12:10.387 voice and text chat for the terminal. 01:12:11.824 --> 01:12:14.825 Yeah, Tin Can does what Discord does without needing any one server. 01:12:15.272 --> 01:12:17.997 The first person to open the app creates the room, sends the invite code it 01:12:17.997 --> 01:12:20.867 prints to their friends, and they connect with that code from anywhere in the 01:12:20.867 --> 01:12:23.747 world. No VPN, no portboarding, no accounts. 01:12:23.747 --> 01:12:29.361 I want to be clear. This is a terminal app and it has a really righteous TUI. It's awesome. 01:12:29.539 --> 01:12:30.835 Made with ratatui. 01:12:31.183 --> 01:12:34.388 And it even has like a little string between them. It's cute. 01:12:35.854 --> 01:12:37.364 And the whole thing is just adorable. 01:12:37.364 --> 01:12:38.314 It seems quite well done. 01:12:38.314 --> 01:12:41.324 I think there's like a ton server, right? There is like a proxy at some point. 01:12:41.324 --> 01:12:44.924 So you will hit like a server that they're hosting to help discover the two. 01:12:44.924 --> 01:12:46.964 But then I think the calls are direct peer to peer. 01:12:46.964 --> 01:12:50.284 Yeah. And then even on top of that, there's also like you have a coordinator 01:12:50.284 --> 01:12:53.834 role who kind of sets things up. But then separately, the voice mesh is all 01:12:53.834 --> 01:12:58.228 where any of the actual audio is sent. And that never goes through the control plane. 01:12:58.564 --> 01:13:03.963 How good is that TUI, though? Right? It's worth the install just for the TUI experience. 01:13:04.561 --> 01:13:07.220 And if you're already in there, it's just one of your tabs now on your terminal, 01:13:07.661 --> 01:13:13.396 and it is MIT licensed, and it is, you guessed it, 97.8% rust. 01:13:14.714 --> 01:13:16.964 Not necessarily a requirement at all. It's just what people are releasing these 01:13:16.964 --> 01:13:19.094 things in. And we just happen to have a soundboard. 01:13:19.094 --> 01:13:22.614 I mean, you know, I think part of it is Ratatouille has to become such a nice 01:13:22.614 --> 01:13:26.634 way to make Tui's that if you want to make a Tui, that's a great way to do it. 01:13:26.634 --> 01:13:27.428 Well, look at that thing. 01:13:28.019 --> 01:13:28.646 It is beautiful. 01:13:28.750 --> 01:13:33.384 Tincan-CLI. We'll have a link in the show notes. We got some good links, 01:13:33.384 --> 01:13:38.084 And those are all at linuxunplugged.com slash 687 or in your podcasting app. 01:13:38.084 --> 01:13:39.426 We try to put them in there as well. 01:13:40.853 --> 01:13:44.678 You got any hot tips before we get out of here? Like speaking of like website, 01:13:45.198 --> 01:13:47.179 we got a website that links to an RSS feed. 01:13:47.312 --> 01:13:47.998 Oh, yes, we do. 01:13:47.998 --> 01:13:49.998 That seems like there might be something in there people want to know about. 01:13:51.058 --> 01:13:53.698 Well, like if you have a question, because like maybe we're trying to repeat 01:13:53.698 --> 01:13:57.471 URLs that we're trying to tell you to go to, but we do a bad job of linking to them sometimes. 01:13:58.040 --> 01:14:00.578 Well, that information could be found in the transcript. 01:14:00.578 --> 01:14:01.178 That's true. 01:14:01.178 --> 01:14:04.368 Yeah, there's a VTT file, you download that, you grab in there, 01:14:04.368 --> 01:14:05.678 you get a bot to do it, whatever. 01:14:05.678 --> 01:14:07.248 You can clank your way through it if you want. 01:14:07.248 --> 01:14:07.818 Yes, you can. 01:14:07.818 --> 01:14:11.378 Whatever. Then there's also a sneaky MP4. 01:14:11.378 --> 01:14:12.498 Right. With our faces. 01:14:12.498 --> 01:14:13.118 Sometimes you can. 01:14:13.178 --> 01:14:14.708 And sometimes the Tui apps. 01:14:14.708 --> 01:14:17.440 Sometimes. Sometimes you get to see them in there. I can't say. 01:14:18.590 --> 01:14:22.948 But you can find out. Go to linuxunplugged.com slash RSS and get the RSS feed 01:14:22.948 --> 01:14:24.871 and put in any app or clanker you want. 01:14:25.184 --> 01:14:28.969 But the real pro moves to show up and make it a Tuesday on a Sunday, 01:14:29.346 --> 01:14:32.458 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 p.m. Eastern, over at jblive.tv. 01:14:32.922 --> 01:14:36.724 That's also labeled at jupyterbroadcasting.com slash calendar in your time zone. 01:14:37.107 --> 01:14:39.249 That's also where we'll put the clanker stream when we're doing one. 01:14:39.540 --> 01:14:41.815 And, of course, meetup.com slash jupyterbroadcasting. 01:14:42.198 --> 01:14:45.599 We love your feedback and your support, boost.jupyterbroadcasting.com. 01:14:45.999 --> 01:14:49.778 And we have our Mumble info, our Matrix info, which has recently been updated, 01:14:49.778 --> 01:14:53.087 all of it at jupyterbroadcasting with links along the top of the website. 01:14:53.389 --> 01:14:54.794 It's pretty great. I love those links. 01:14:55.224 --> 01:14:58.074 Thanks so much for joining us on this week's episode. See you back here next week.