WEBVTT 00:00:11.465 --> 00:00:15.819 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:15.819 --> 00:00:16.707 My name is Wes. 00:00:16.887 --> 00:00:17.862 And my name is Brent. 00:00:18.303 --> 00:00:24.109 Hello, gentlemen. Today we are celebrating 30 years of KDE. There's a new documentary 00:00:24.109 --> 00:00:26.233 out that tells their remarkable story. We'll dig into that. 00:00:26.523 --> 00:00:30.139 And we're going to take a look at the new Plasma 6.8. Plus, our old friend Aaron 00:00:30.139 --> 00:00:35.069 Saigo joins us for an insider's look at KDE's history and where it's going into 00:00:35.069 --> 00:00:36.829 the future. And then you know what we're going to do. 00:00:37.129 --> 00:00:42.009 We're going to round it out with some great picks, boosts, maybe some feedback, 00:00:42.009 --> 00:00:44.373 and maybe some voicemails. I mean, there's a lot there. 00:00:45.308 --> 00:00:47.869 I'll let you figure it out. But before we get to all of that, 00:00:47.869 --> 00:00:51.328 let's say time-appropriate greetings to our virtual lug. Hello, Mumble Room. 00:00:51.908 --> 00:00:55.209 Hey, how are you? Hey, Wes, and hello, Brent. 00:00:55.209 --> 00:00:58.379 Hello. Hello, everybody there, and hello up there in the quiet listening. 00:00:58.379 --> 00:00:59.546 Hello on the live stream. 00:01:00.388 --> 00:01:03.809 Thank you for joining us, making it a Tuesday on a Sunday. Also, 00:01:03.809 --> 00:01:07.232 good morning to our friends over at Defined Networking. 00:01:07.603 --> 00:01:11.919 Go check out Managed Nebula, defined.net slash unplugged. A decentralized VPN 00:01:11.919 --> 00:01:15.519 built around the open source Nebula platform that we love. It's optimized for 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:19.892 speed, control, industry-leading security. 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Redefine your VPN experience. 00:01:53.962 --> 00:01:58.259 Manage Nebula speed, self-control, right where they matter the most. 00:01:58.259 --> 00:02:02.192 Defined.net slash unplugged. And thank you to Defined. 00:02:03.725 --> 00:02:05.019 Defined.net slash unplugged. 00:02:07.195 --> 00:02:14.016 Just a quick housekeeping here. Clanker Therapy 3 is out. The MP3 is available on our extras feed. 00:02:14.451 --> 00:02:17.693 And the YouTube version is also out. We'll have that linked in the show notes. 00:02:17.693 --> 00:02:21.393 And then there's an extended cut for our members, a bootleg version as well. 00:02:21.393 --> 00:02:25.156 And those will all be in the show notes this week at linuxunplugged.com slash 689. 00:02:26.224 --> 00:02:29.493 Thank you both. You both were great. And we finally got to dig into Brent's 00:02:29.493 --> 00:02:31.463 workflow, which was fascinating. 00:02:31.463 --> 00:02:32.110 I built a thing. 00:02:32.702 --> 00:02:33.393 Yeah, you did. 00:02:33.393 --> 00:02:34.033 More than one. 00:02:34.033 --> 00:02:35.343 More than one thing. 00:02:35.640 --> 00:02:40.113 Accidentally or naturally, I don't know. But audience members built things too, 00:02:40.113 --> 00:02:41.172 and that was cool to dig into. 00:02:41.677 --> 00:02:44.903 It was, it was. We had some great, some great interaction there too. 00:02:44.903 --> 00:02:47.743 So, all right, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. You can go check it out. We'd love it. 00:02:48.114 --> 00:02:51.043 I think you might like it too. And it lets us get some of that out of our system 00:02:51.043 --> 00:02:53.380 without having to put it here, you know, in the gosh darn show. 00:02:57.006 --> 00:03:01.500 And 30 years of KDE. It's incredible. 00:03:01.720 --> 00:03:06.956 And KDE at 30, they are also doing a funding initiative around this that I just wanted to mention. 00:03:07.299 --> 00:03:09.789 Just to kind of put that out there, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. 00:03:12.297 --> 00:03:14.913 And, boys, I'm old enough to remember some of the very first versions. 00:03:15.273 --> 00:03:17.083 You've seen a lot of these eras, haven't you? 00:03:17.083 --> 00:03:21.893 Trying to get the wife to run KDE 2 and KDE 3. And then things really went off 00:03:21.893 --> 00:03:24.325 the rails with KDE 4 plasma at that point. 00:03:25.493 --> 00:03:30.013 So it's really, really something now. See Plasma 6.8, released on October 14th, 00:03:30.013 --> 00:03:32.707 2026, sort of their 30th anniversary release. 00:03:33.485 --> 00:03:35.842 This is the one that drops X11 altogether. 00:03:36.829 --> 00:03:39.293 All Wayland now. No going back. 00:03:39.293 --> 00:03:42.193 It's funny how that was like, I mean, you know, I knew it was happening, 00:03:42.193 --> 00:03:45.588 but it's the thing I've noticed probably the least as I've been trying it. 00:03:45.832 --> 00:03:48.093 Just because I've been on Wayland for so long and it's been so good. 00:03:48.093 --> 00:03:52.103 And there is X Wayland, so you can do still X11 apps. It's interesting to see 00:03:52.103 --> 00:03:56.743 both Gnome and Plasma of pushing on this, but 6.8 also lands some major remote desktop upgrades. 00:03:56.743 --> 00:03:59.792 Yes. Oh, man. Some fascinating stuff. 00:03:59.955 --> 00:04:04.743 Like, there's now three explicit operating modes. So you've got shared access, 00:04:04.743 --> 00:04:07.943 which is like the help desk, screen shared, host stays live. 00:04:07.943 --> 00:04:11.477 And then you've got remote access, which is the sort of exclusive mode. 00:04:12.064 --> 00:04:16.173 The host screens get removed, not just dimmed, and then they get shifted to 00:04:16.173 --> 00:04:21.183 the remote session, right? So it's like your session. It's not the computers or the host session. 00:04:21.183 --> 00:04:22.633 Oh, that's great. 00:04:22.633 --> 00:04:25.798 Or you can do it as an additional display, as a virtual monitor. 00:04:28.944 --> 00:04:32.964 That sounds like a deep reworking of how you're thinking about doing this tool. 00:04:33.284 --> 00:04:38.634 Yeah, that's a big one. Exclusive mode can lock the host screen, 00:04:38.634 --> 00:04:42.644 so that makes sense. But the other mode that is really unique is you could be 00:04:42.644 --> 00:04:47.104 using it and still have something else using it in its own virtual screen. 00:04:47.104 --> 00:04:51.254 Yeah, the virtual screen stuff that K1 is doing these days is very cool. 00:04:51.254 --> 00:04:54.244 There must have been plumbing because along with the Spectacle, 00:04:54.244 --> 00:04:56.354 their screen cap tool got some reworking. 00:04:56.354 --> 00:04:58.344 There's some new plumbing there too finally yeah you've. 00:04:58.344 --> 00:04:59.094 Been messing around with. 00:04:59.094 --> 00:05:02.844 It yeah yeah because before you couldn't easily like if i wanted to record say 00:05:02.989 --> 00:05:07.264 me talking while demoing something spectacle was not the tool for that but now 00:05:07.264 --> 00:05:08.875 oh it is so like you know you'd have to like, 00:05:09.693 --> 00:05:12.804 get your own sync or use a tool that can do both like maybe i'm recording reaper 00:05:12.804 --> 00:05:15.624 and then i'm recording in spectacle yeah you know brent had a good pick for 00:05:15.624 --> 00:05:17.559 recording on the desktop ages ago that i've used. 00:05:17.925 --> 00:05:20.674 But you had to run them both and start them around the same time. 00:05:20.674 --> 00:05:23.774 Yeah now it's all integrated it's just one tool and i've been trying it i mean 00:05:23.774 --> 00:05:27.624 6.8 in general is just really fast it feels noticeably faster and spectacle 00:05:27.624 --> 00:05:32.670 also just you know sometimes it'd be a little slow or you know not at all especially not the video part. 00:05:32.942 --> 00:05:37.994 That's awesome also kind of interesting i think it's just you know early days 00:05:37.994 --> 00:05:42.114 here but the union theming is reaching beta the new theming system now supports 00:05:42.114 --> 00:05:47.634 both qt quick and qt widgets so that's things like dolphin kate and console. 00:05:47.634 --> 00:05:49.624 It's taking a long time to get here. 00:05:49.624 --> 00:05:54.114 Yeah the goal is one styling system across kd applications we've talked a little 00:05:54.114 --> 00:05:57.104 bit about this it's not like we're going to see an immediate visual refresh. 00:05:57.104 --> 00:06:00.394 Right the goal is that you don't really see anything but they get a single source 00:06:00.394 --> 00:06:03.528 of truth for declarative styling that they can use on all the different things 00:06:03.824 --> 00:06:07.374 and not have to have you know basically theme components re-implemented in different 00:06:07.374 --> 00:06:08.996 frameworks which just sounds miserable. 00:06:09.489 --> 00:06:11.924 And then the other thing that i think and i might have mentioned this earlier 00:06:11.924 --> 00:06:15.439 on there too but uh i thought this might be brent's favorite feature is cup 00:06:15.637 --> 00:06:20.972 k-u-p is now a installed default backup tool that ships as part of Plasma? 00:06:21.210 --> 00:06:25.644 Oh, yeah. A couple episodes ago, I got some homework to try to give that a proper test. 00:06:25.664 --> 00:06:28.434 Gotta give that a go soon. I just want, I'm sure it's pretty simple, 00:06:28.434 --> 00:06:30.004 but I'd like to know if it's effective. You know what I mean? 00:06:31.351 --> 00:06:32.336 That's pretty fun. 00:06:32.336 --> 00:06:35.583 And you seem like a good candidate because if anyone's going to break it, it's you. 00:06:35.705 --> 00:06:38.416 And if anybody has a lot of hard drives to back stuff up, is this guy? 00:06:38.416 --> 00:06:41.276 That is also true. Lots of random hard drives all over the place. 00:06:41.276 --> 00:06:45.196 Well, he's got that cool, he's got this cool, crazy wiki brain he was telling 00:06:45.196 --> 00:06:48.036 us about on the stream. Probably got to be backing that up. 00:06:48.036 --> 00:06:49.296 You should. You should back that up. 00:06:49.296 --> 00:06:50.546 Oh, yeah. Good point. 00:06:51.028 --> 00:06:54.556 Back it up with Cup, as they say. It's a nice, solid release, 00:06:54.556 --> 00:06:56.776 like Wes is saying. It's one of those, you can feel the performance. 00:06:56.776 --> 00:06:58.203 It's not going to rock your workflow. 00:06:58.667 --> 00:07:01.854 It feels like 6.8 is going to be sort of a long-term rock star. 00:07:02.539 --> 00:07:05.900 And it means we're getting really close to 7, which is just bonkers. 00:07:07.032 --> 00:07:11.183 And it really makes me reflect on the entire history now that we're here at 30 years. 00:07:11.699 --> 00:07:16.912 And just perfect with the 30-year timing. There's been a new documentary released, 00:07:17.452 --> 00:07:21.496 and it really tells the story of KDE over the last 30 years. 00:07:21.816 --> 00:07:22.839 We watched it. It's great. 00:07:23.327 --> 00:07:25.149 And I'll play a little bit of the trailer for you. 00:07:25.689 --> 00:07:30.096 And then we're going to talk to one of the folks behind the early days of KDE 00:07:30.096 --> 00:07:32.423 and Plasma and one of the stars of the documentary. 00:07:32.690 --> 00:07:36.922 I always describe myself as a relative newcomer to KDE. I've only been here 10 years. 00:07:42.539 --> 00:07:48.286 Using Linux on the desktop was tedious. Microsoft software at that time was 00:07:48.286 --> 00:07:53.411 really, really bad. I mean, it was normal that a computer would regularly crash. 00:07:55.513 --> 00:08:01.866 I saw a post on Usenet. There was this guy who had posted a call to ARMS to 00:08:01.866 --> 00:08:04.261 create a desktop environment. 00:08:07.106 --> 00:08:12.701 The initial vision of KDE was very much driven by how can we make Linux successful 00:08:12.701 --> 00:08:14.659 and more appealing to the general public. 00:08:14.914 --> 00:08:18.861 And the cool story is that it's been a bunch of self-organizing people who saw 00:08:18.861 --> 00:08:21.450 that vision and for one reason or another that spoke to them. 00:08:21.717 --> 00:08:23.947 And they got involved and they made it happen. 00:08:26.211 --> 00:08:31.701 KDE started with this lofty goal of replacing Windows and of course it was crazy. 00:08:31.701 --> 00:08:35.567 The goal of world domination is always there, of course. 00:08:36.153 --> 00:08:40.221 The Qt library was very convincing from the very beginning. There was a drawback 00:08:40.221 --> 00:08:44.002 to it because Qt was not really open source at that time. 00:08:44.228 --> 00:08:50.538 We got lots of criticism, lots of flack from the free software community over the licensing. 00:08:50.730 --> 00:08:54.321 If you disagree, go do your own thing. And in fact, some people did. 00:08:54.321 --> 00:09:00.615 Can you explain to me what is it? It's a KDE ripoff started by Miguel de Casa. 00:09:01.347 --> 00:09:05.921 People were talking past each other and it got heated. A lot of it boiled down 00:09:05.921 --> 00:09:11.441 to cute is evil, KD is evil, Gnome is good, without people really knowing the details. 00:09:11.441 --> 00:09:15.111 We wanted something that had lots of features, allowed people to do things in 00:09:15.111 --> 00:09:21.757 new ways. We got a lot of backlash with the release of 4.0 and people were saying, okay, KD sucks. 00:09:21.885 --> 00:09:26.661 People were disappointed, people were angry about their favorite features, 00:09:26.661 --> 00:09:30.430 gone. This was the end and I was gonna die and it was all my fault. 00:09:30.621 --> 00:09:34.805 I was the person to push the button and I did so consciously. and I stand by it. 00:09:35.333 --> 00:09:37.695 Yeah, I mean, we have been doing this thing for a long time, 00:09:37.841 --> 00:09:40.801 and it's one of those things that maybe shouldn't have worked. 00:09:41.115 --> 00:09:45.509 The thing that I'm most proud of having done in my life and continue to be doing is KDE. 00:09:48.367 --> 00:09:51.776 We'll link to the full documentary in the show notes on the Cult Repo YouTube 00:09:51.776 --> 00:09:55.850 channel. And Aaron Saigo was one of the stars of that documentary. 00:09:56.163 --> 00:09:59.896 He led the design and development of Plasma. He served on the board of KDEV 00:09:59.896 --> 00:10:03.350 as the president roughly from 2007 to 2009. 00:10:03.849 --> 00:10:07.806 And Aaron continued leading Plasma through KDE4, which was a very rocky era 00:10:07.806 --> 00:10:09.474 with vision and leadership. 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:14.141 And really moved them through that to Plasma 5. And Aaron joins us now. 00:10:16.713 --> 00:10:21.236 Ladies and gentlemen join us right now the man himself aaron saigo on the podcast 00:10:21.236 --> 00:10:24.265 aaron welcome to the unplugged program it's really good to chat with you. 00:10:25.566 --> 00:10:27.307 It's great to be here looking forward to it. 00:10:27.592 --> 00:10:31.736 Aaron you and i uh actually have spent a lot of time chatting way back in the 00:10:32.056 --> 00:10:36.006 uh previous lives on linux action show because we were doing that show right 00:10:36.006 --> 00:10:38.517 around the time plasma 4 was landing, 00:10:39.335 --> 00:10:43.206 And I thought, you know, I don't really think I appreciated it then, 00:10:44.106 --> 00:10:45.632 but looking back at it now... 00:10:46.700 --> 00:10:51.456 You were really kind of early communicating with the Linux, quote unquote, 00:10:51.456 --> 00:10:56.526 media and podcast on what the vision was and why Plasma 4 is where it's at, 00:10:56.926 --> 00:10:58.506 why we're trying to do what we're trying to do. 00:10:58.506 --> 00:11:01.416 Like you were early to that in a way that most open source projects have only 00:11:01.416 --> 00:11:03.390 figured out probably in the last few years, I think. 00:11:03.622 --> 00:11:08.576 Yeah, well, it was, I think, really important to not just myself, 00:11:08.576 --> 00:11:17.186 but everyone in that community, that we really reach out to kind of the masses, if you will. 00:11:17.186 --> 00:11:20.468 I mean, slightly smaller community then, I think, than it is now. 00:11:21.101 --> 00:11:25.136 But it was really important because that's, A, that's who we were writing software 00:11:25.136 --> 00:11:28.328 for. They were, you folks were our greatest supporters. 00:11:28.839 --> 00:11:32.626 And it's also where contributors came from, right? So if you really want to 00:11:32.626 --> 00:11:35.726 build something that's going to last year after year, decade after decade, 00:11:35.726 --> 00:11:38.040 you need to have a relationship with the people that, 00:11:40.166 --> 00:11:43.836 make the bacon come home, as they say. So yeah, it was really important. 00:11:43.836 --> 00:11:46.996 And I think it was a magic time where there was a lot of really interesting 00:11:46.996 --> 00:11:52.726 podcasts. And when I saw your name come up in the invites, in the email, I was like, no way. 00:11:53.486 --> 00:11:54.286 He's still doing that? I know this guy. 00:11:55.166 --> 00:11:56.806 That was really cool to talk to you. Yeah. 00:11:56.826 --> 00:12:01.006 Why not? You know, Aaron, I think it's really great that you took the time. 00:12:01.006 --> 00:12:04.426 And the documentary is fantastic. I had a chance to watch it and we watched it. 00:12:05.182 --> 00:12:12.556 And one of the things that it does really well is it does give Plasma 4 its flowers, if you will. 00:12:12.556 --> 00:12:17.016 And I think you're cutting yourself a little short because I went back and I 00:12:17.016 --> 00:12:21.876 did a little rewatching of that era and you were fantastic at communicating 00:12:21.876 --> 00:12:23.282 the vision even back then. 00:12:23.833 --> 00:12:27.986 I think this I think you were at a Google event and you were introducing Plasma 00:12:27.986 --> 00:12:29.058 4. I'll just play a moment. 00:12:29.301 --> 00:12:30.136 Eleven years ago. 00:12:30.136 --> 00:12:31.016 Oh, I remember this video. 00:12:31.016 --> 00:12:36.029 An international team of technologists, artists, translators, documenters. 00:12:37.224 --> 00:12:41.520 And communicators started to assemble. Today, we form the heart of a global 00:12:41.520 --> 00:12:42.988 community that is thousands strong. 00:12:43.377 --> 00:12:46.662 We've worked together across all divides, human and technical, 00:12:47.127 --> 00:12:50.318 to create software for all manners of people, devices, and systems. 00:12:50.731 --> 00:12:53.900 And in that time, we've accomplished what few thought was possible. 00:12:55.061 --> 00:12:59.040 We've created a coherent and innovative user experience erected entirely in 00:12:59.040 --> 00:13:01.597 the open using a process based on participation. 00:13:02.689 --> 00:13:06.960 Some of us that participate are entrepreneurs, Others are researchers or professionals 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:08.082 in our respective fields. 00:13:08.505 --> 00:13:11.385 We are all technology enthusiasts, and together we make KDE. 00:13:11.936 --> 00:13:15.657 And to celebrate the launch of 4.0, I'd like to share with you what it means to be KDE. 00:13:15.861 --> 00:13:21.230 Man, that's just a great—you were really—I don't know, you were zeroed in on the mission there. 00:13:21.230 --> 00:13:23.110 It makes me want to use it, and I'm using it right now. 00:13:24.650 --> 00:13:25.970 There we go. 00:13:25.970 --> 00:13:26.490 Life is good. 00:13:26.810 --> 00:13:29.410 You know, if we could just talk about it for a second. Plasma 4, 00:13:30.630 --> 00:13:33.980 it was a huge roll of the dice. And here we are. Plasma 6.8 is coming out. 00:13:33.980 --> 00:13:36.090 We're at 30 years of KDE and community. 00:13:36.827 --> 00:13:41.790 And Plasma 4, now looking back at it, was seemingly an essential transition, 00:13:41.790 --> 00:13:43.799 but a very, very rocky transition. 00:13:44.420 --> 00:13:47.091 Could you give us just a little bit of that history from your perspective? 00:13:47.224 --> 00:13:54.610 Yeah. So during the KDE 3.x releases, I was maintaining more and more and more 00:13:54.610 --> 00:13:55.850 of the desktop shell myself. 00:13:56.605 --> 00:14:02.410 So I'd inherited a desktop shell, a run dialogue, the panels, 00:14:02.410 --> 00:14:03.733 which were called Kickr at the time. 00:14:04.633 --> 00:14:09.540 They were functional, they worked, they were reliable. They had little quirks 00:14:09.540 --> 00:14:11.895 here and there, but generally they worked. 00:14:13.070 --> 00:14:17.620 The problem was that there was no real future for them. If you thought forward 00:14:17.620 --> 00:14:19.918 five years or so in development, 00:14:20.882 --> 00:14:23.347 They weren't going to be able to keep up with where things are obviously going, 00:14:23.347 --> 00:14:27.777 which was a combination of things. The one, everyone's moving more and more 00:14:27.777 --> 00:14:29.085 and more to online services. 00:14:29.387 --> 00:14:33.017 Everyone's going to be carrying a phone in their pocket, and they're going to 00:14:33.017 --> 00:14:35.887 expect to be able to use that phone with their laptop, with their desktop. 00:14:36.247 --> 00:14:38.424 It's going to be a mobile multi-device world. 00:14:39.295 --> 00:14:43.807 At the same time, I was one of the few people still contributing patches to, 00:14:43.807 --> 00:14:47.265 say, the panels, because the code base was kind of crunchy. 00:14:47.660 --> 00:14:52.809 It had definitely matured over time, but it had grown a lot of rough spots. 00:14:53.244 --> 00:14:55.885 And there were some things that were just absolutely unfixable. 00:14:56.487 --> 00:14:59.627 One of them was the system tray, right? So the way the system tray was being 00:14:59.627 --> 00:15:04.511 done then was very much how Motif apps in the early 90s were being written, 00:15:04.947 --> 00:15:09.067 or the mid-90s were being written, which is that every little thing, 00:15:09.067 --> 00:15:11.170 every icon you saw was a different X window. 00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:17.863 This meant it was inaccessible for people who needed accessibility technologies. That wasn't a thing. 00:15:18.409 --> 00:15:22.827 We couldn't reshape them. We couldn't change the size of them. We couldn't theme them. 00:15:23.387 --> 00:15:27.012 And if you think of something like a tablet or a phone, that's just a non-starter. 00:15:27.586 --> 00:15:33.975 If you think about convertible devices, it's a non-starter. And so we designed a protocol. 00:15:35.417 --> 00:15:38.899 Over dbus to publish the data as a service, 00:15:39.572 --> 00:15:43.277 and then other things could consume that service which also meant you could 00:15:43.277 --> 00:15:46.747 have a system tray on both your screens right so i mean the original design 00:15:46.747 --> 00:15:52.257 of like kd's one two and three really designed for the era of one desktop one 00:15:52.257 --> 00:15:54.184 screen one person more or less 00:15:54.607 --> 00:15:57.608 you know and an internet connection and the really funky stuff that was happening 00:15:57.899 --> 00:16:02.600 was thin clients which are still one screen one computer with one person in front of it. 00:16:03.717 --> 00:16:08.185 And so with that as kind of the backdrop, I looked at what we had, 00:16:08.719 --> 00:16:14.211 and I saw Qt4, which was a massive change from Qt3, which KD3 was based on. 00:16:15.297 --> 00:16:16.642 Really disruptive change in itself. 00:16:16.922 --> 00:16:20.067 Right. So there was a toolkit change happening as well. 00:16:20.067 --> 00:16:23.747 So the assumptions changed, the landscape changed. I could see how you're kind 00:16:23.747 --> 00:16:25.067 of forced into sort of a rewrite. 00:16:25.067 --> 00:16:25.693 Yeah, yeah. 00:16:26.517 --> 00:16:33.156 Yeah. And so it was a huge risk and a huge gamble. So on the library level, beneath everything. 00:16:33.435 --> 00:16:38.977 We were updating for modern media, the hot plug era, etc. 00:16:40.317 --> 00:16:44.075 And so there's a lot of stuff happening under the covers in the KD core libraries. 00:16:44.737 --> 00:16:49.317 And on top of that, we're now redoing the desktop, hopefully. And the goal was, 00:16:50.368 --> 00:16:54.112 that we could build something that would last the next 20 years, 00:16:54.919 --> 00:17:01.075 that would survive the multi-device world, that would be amenable to an always 00:17:01.075 --> 00:17:04.925 online, always connected experience, with people having hundreds of thousands 00:17:04.925 --> 00:17:07.455 to millions of files at their disposal, etc., etc. 00:17:08.456 --> 00:17:12.695 And I think the success of that was up and down, and not just in the first release, 00:17:12.695 --> 00:17:14.586 but just like, have we achieved all those things? 00:17:15.289 --> 00:17:17.831 But I will point to the fact that Plasma Mobile is still a thing. 00:17:18.715 --> 00:17:23.729 It's the default desktop environment on Steam on their handheld device. 00:17:24.188 --> 00:17:27.445 We're seeing it shipped on, I mean, my laptop is a tuxedo laptop, 00:17:27.445 --> 00:17:31.704 the one I'm using now. It came with it pre-installed. It's with Wayland and it's beautiful. 00:17:32.122 --> 00:17:38.850 And so, you know, in some sense, we did achieve kind of that goal and people have continued it on. 00:17:39.128 --> 00:17:43.405 I think one of the things I feel is kind of the biggest success of it all is 00:17:43.405 --> 00:17:46.350 that it's been able to transition between multiple generations of developers 00:17:46.710 --> 00:17:50.036 and they've maintained that, that structure, that vision and the, 00:17:50.535 --> 00:17:53.065 you know, the coherency is still there and no one's felt the need to, 00:17:53.065 --> 00:17:55.065 wow, we got to rewrite this now. Right. 00:17:55.445 --> 00:17:58.389 So eventually they will. Right. And that'll be a great day too. 00:17:58.685 --> 00:18:01.685 Then perhaps difficult, maybe, I don't know. But so far, this is, 00:18:01.685 --> 00:18:07.145 this basic design has held up and it's, it's allowed people to iteratively move 00:18:07.145 --> 00:18:09.215 it forward, which was also one of the goals. 00:18:09.215 --> 00:18:14.545 It's, it's, it was, um, a few years of pain for years and years of a platform 00:18:14.545 --> 00:18:16.426 that's paid dividends is what it was. 00:18:16.542 --> 00:18:21.447 Yeah yeah and you know people are users are um especially, 00:18:22.294 --> 00:18:26.352 in the free software world we have very passionate people which is very cool 00:18:26.653 --> 00:18:30.606 but passion comes with a price as well if you're on the receiving end of that passion and, 00:18:31.291 --> 00:18:34.426 people were very focused on the here and now and that's completely understandable 00:18:34.803 --> 00:18:38.727 you know no real complaints about that yeah but it does have the the, 00:18:39.766 --> 00:18:45.040 the negative, the possible negative, that if we're only focused on the here 00:18:45.040 --> 00:18:49.617 and now, we miss the opportunities to set foundations when necessary. 00:18:50.424 --> 00:18:54.104 And if we are too focused on the here and now, we'll also get caught up in short-term hype. 00:18:54.911 --> 00:18:57.800 And that was, you know, so you've got these two kinds of things, 00:18:57.800 --> 00:19:01.340 right? Hype that'll never deliver and foundational work that needs to happen 00:19:01.340 --> 00:19:03.015 that's going to have a short-term pain cost. 00:19:03.590 --> 00:19:10.760 And around the 4.x, the early 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 era, we were dealing with both those 00:19:10.760 --> 00:19:14.220 things. There was a lot of hype about certain technologies in the free software 00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:17.754 environment that aren't with us today for all intents and purposes. 00:19:18.433 --> 00:19:22.468 And then we had to pay that pain to get, you know, the next revision of the 00:19:22.468 --> 00:19:24.655 KD desktop environment out the door. 00:19:25.172 --> 00:19:28.238 Yeah, that is. And yet it's in there. 00:19:28.238 --> 00:19:31.978 It feels like we have echoes of that today, perhaps with like AI workflows. 00:19:31.978 --> 00:19:36.678 And one of the things that strikes me about your era where you were really, 00:19:36.678 --> 00:19:41.018 again, pretty effective at communicating is Plasma was also trying to figure 00:19:41.018 --> 00:19:45.748 out what do we do in the era of not just the web, but mobile devices, 00:19:45.748 --> 00:19:46.738 which you just touched on. 00:19:46.738 --> 00:19:49.477 And I have one last clip. I'll only subject you to one last clip. 00:19:49.866 --> 00:19:56.168 This is you on the Linux Action Show, episode 196. And you were talking about 00:19:56.168 --> 00:19:59.538 a project that I think, Aaron, maybe on the other side of the clip you can correct 00:19:59.538 --> 00:20:04.638 me. I think this led to Plasma Active. So I want to play a little bit of this for you. 00:20:04.638 --> 00:20:08.424 Plasma Active user interface, user experience. 00:20:09.198 --> 00:20:14.844 You can actually see it if you go to plasma-active.org. There's a website dedicated to it. 00:20:15.187 --> 00:20:19.438 And while you can launch apps and get apps on it, it's actually centered around 00:20:19.438 --> 00:20:22.971 the concept of activities, which we started on Plasma Desktop, 00:20:23.296 --> 00:20:25.972 but I think has really started to shine on the tablet. 00:20:26.355 --> 00:20:29.968 And these activities, I mean, essentially we're talking about like Plasma widgets 00:20:29.968 --> 00:20:34.398 here, like living kind of in predefined workspaces is kind of a thing? No. 00:20:35.078 --> 00:20:38.358 So the idea is that... I like being wrong, by the way. Good job, 00:20:38.358 --> 00:20:43.018 right? You nailed it. Yeah. Good thing you're on another continent right now, Saigo. 00:20:43.838 --> 00:20:48.808 No, just kidding. All right, so what are activities? Okay, so the easiest way 00:20:48.808 --> 00:20:50.723 to explain is kind of through the use case, right? 00:20:51.913 --> 00:20:56.011 We have a laptop or a tablet, and we tend to take it with us wherever we go. 00:20:56.144 --> 00:20:58.768 At least I do mine. Well, not everywhere, but of course not. 00:20:59.838 --> 00:21:02.938 And when I'm doing work things, I have a few projects at work. 00:21:03.318 --> 00:21:06.358 But when I'm outside of work, I'm with friends, I'm doing other things. 00:21:06.358 --> 00:21:09.988 So, Aaron, I went and I looked to see kind of where this ended up. 00:21:09.988 --> 00:21:14.328 And it seems like Plasma Active transitioned to essentially what the Plasma 00:21:14.328 --> 00:21:17.014 Mobile effort is today. Is that accurate? 00:21:18.210 --> 00:21:22.005 It is. And there's been a lot of things that have happened in between then and now. So, 00:21:24.637 --> 00:21:29.267 we gathered, I think it was in Berlin, to discuss what would become Plasma Active. 00:21:29.702 --> 00:21:33.597 Eva Bucherscheifel's company was involved in this as well. And we were really 00:21:33.597 --> 00:21:37.951 excited about bringing free software to the device world. 00:21:38.503 --> 00:21:40.744 Since then, QML happened. 00:21:41.297 --> 00:21:44.157 It really took off. Marco Martin did 00:21:44.157 --> 00:21:47.181 a really good job with the Akira Gami components that are still in use. 00:21:47.675 --> 00:21:52.406 But yeah, this morphs into Plasma Mobile, which is still there. 00:21:52.754 --> 00:21:56.477 And the concepts, so what was really neat about that, and it still is, 00:21:56.477 --> 00:22:01.647 I think, is a lot of the components, like the battery and the clock and other 00:22:01.647 --> 00:22:05.567 components, especially on that one, like the desktop widgets and notes. 00:22:05.567 --> 00:22:09.339 Those are the same components that are used on desktop, exactly the same components, 00:22:09.652 --> 00:22:14.067 but they restyle and reconfigure themselves based upon the form factor they 00:22:14.067 --> 00:22:16.636 find themselves in. And not just screen size, but also input. 00:22:16.996 --> 00:22:20.611 So, you know, you have touch, which is a very different thing than a mouse and a keyboard. 00:22:20.913 --> 00:22:26.689 And these components are able to jump between these different interaction modes. 00:22:27.275 --> 00:22:32.738 And this was long before the web actually got there to similar concepts. 00:22:32.993 --> 00:22:36.923 And certainly before a rich client application started doing the same thing. 00:22:37.109 --> 00:22:40.767 Sounds like a payoff from exactly what you mentioned, the previous generation 00:22:40.767 --> 00:22:43.237 missing, right? Like that was kind of what the whole point was, the paying off. 00:22:43.237 --> 00:22:49.687 Exactly. Yeah. And I think it's for developers today who are still pushing all 00:22:49.687 --> 00:22:52.544 this forward, I think it's really important to take that as a lesson, 00:22:52.977 --> 00:22:55.040 a historical lesson of looking at it and going, okay, 00:22:56.190 --> 00:23:00.045 You can innovate and you can successfully produce things that, 00:23:00.045 --> 00:23:03.865 yeah, there might be some pain or whatever, but you can actually innovate in 00:23:03.865 --> 00:23:07.016 the open and in the free software environment, even on a desktop. 00:23:08.206 --> 00:23:13.255 And you mentioned a couple times about having goals for the project back then. 00:23:13.615 --> 00:23:19.505 And I'm curious if you feel like the Plasma desktop, but also the project as 00:23:19.505 --> 00:23:22.825 a whole, has achieved the goals that you set out, what did you say, 00:23:22.825 --> 00:23:24.075 20 years ago, something like that? 00:23:24.875 --> 00:23:28.609 Yes, like 18 years ago. which is crazy to think about. Someone actually responded. 00:23:28.929 --> 00:23:31.635 So someone watched the documentary, sort of going a bit of a tangent. 00:23:32.075 --> 00:23:35.405 And apparently it jogged their memory and they responded to an email that I 00:23:35.405 --> 00:23:39.095 had sent them. They wrote me and I replied to them 18 years ago. 00:23:40.395 --> 00:23:44.115 And they replied to that email and say, I'm so sorry I didn't follow up on this, but I just, yeah. 00:23:44.115 --> 00:23:44.550 So that, 00:23:46.975 --> 00:23:48.915 sounds like something I might do. I am bad with email. 00:23:50.335 --> 00:23:56.035 It's, it's, yes, it's, it was great. But so have we achieved the goals and there 00:23:56.035 --> 00:23:57.315 are people doing right now to this? I think. 00:23:58.707 --> 00:24:03.421 A question that is best left for the people working on it to really answer, 00:24:03.856 --> 00:24:05.731 because the goals will change, right? 00:24:06.202 --> 00:24:11.409 Have my hopes and dreams and goals for it been realized? Parts of it, yeah. 00:24:12.018 --> 00:24:16.040 One, it has ensured that the project continued to live. 00:24:16.980 --> 00:24:23.233 That was obviously goal number one, longevity. Two, it has remained at the forefront 00:24:23.233 --> 00:24:26.715 and been able to remain at the forefront of adapting to things like Wayland, 00:24:27.394 --> 00:24:32.596 which was just coming in at the tail end of when I was still involved in a daily basis. 00:24:33.147 --> 00:24:37.797 So that's kind of goal number two. Can we continue to evolve it as the technology evolves? Yes. 00:24:39.013 --> 00:24:45.709 Are we seeing it on devices? Yes. So again, the Steam Deck is an example. So those things, yes. 00:24:46.167 --> 00:24:50.053 On the other hand, because I'm a horrible pessimist and a critic of myself, 00:24:50.653 --> 00:24:54.273 there are also things that we didn't really ever achieve to what I hoped. 00:24:54.273 --> 00:25:01.069 So one of the vision parts of it was the idea of a non-local service-oriented, 00:25:01.733 --> 00:25:04.982 experience so that you could be running... 00:25:06.155 --> 00:25:09.779 An experience, forget about applications, you're editing something or you're 00:25:09.779 --> 00:25:14.408 watching a movie, and you can seamlessly bind and use devices together. 00:25:14.721 --> 00:25:18.849 So KDE Connect kind of goes in that direction. I use KDE Connect all the time 00:25:18.849 --> 00:25:20.172 for presentations, love it. 00:25:20.892 --> 00:25:24.199 The design and the architecture of that app is as cool as it is, 00:25:24.199 --> 00:25:27.579 and it kind of gets that idea, right? It's really limited and it's not generic. 00:25:28.125 --> 00:25:32.739 And I wish it was architected a little bit differently. No shade to it, I use all the time. 00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:37.204 But that's one thing that I don't think we've ever really got to was, 00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:42.749 can I be working on something on my desktop and then just slide it over onto 00:25:42.749 --> 00:25:44.129 my tablet and walk away with it? 00:25:44.588 --> 00:25:49.169 Can I hand my tablet or my laptop to a friend while I'm working on a piece of 00:25:49.169 --> 00:25:53.649 code or something on my desktop and just have them start to interact with the same session? 00:25:54.265 --> 00:25:57.237 We are seeing bits and pieces of this appear on the web. 00:25:57.788 --> 00:26:02.409 We're definitely seeing a huge push for this in the local first movement of 00:26:02.409 --> 00:26:03.971 apps, which I love, by the way. 00:26:04.882 --> 00:26:10.532 And we started to make progress on this with Plasma, but then so many other priorities took over. 00:26:11.152 --> 00:26:17.071 And I still think that, to this day, the idea of viewing computer interaction 00:26:17.286 --> 00:26:23.079 session and experience as being not tied to the device you're on and not necessarily local. 00:26:23.677 --> 00:26:27.282