Chris: Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris.
Wes: My name is Wes.
Brent: And my name is Brent.
Chris: Hello, gentlemen. Well, coming up on the show, we've each prepared a topic,
Chris: but we haven't told the other one what it's about.
Chris: So I have no idea what the other guys want to talk about this week,
Chris: and then we'll round out the show with some great boosts, some picks,
Chris: and a lot more. And I know what I'm going to talk about.
Chris: But before we get there, I know we've got to say time-appropriate greetings
Chris: to our virtual lug. Hello, Mama Room.
Chris: Hello. Hello. Hey, Chris. Hey, Wes. And hello, Brent.
Chris: Hello. And hello up there in the old quiet listening. And a shout out to the
Chris: live stream and our members.
Chris: We've been cooking now for about 40 minutes or so. So it's nice to be here on
Chris: a Sunday morning doing the Unplugged program on a Tuesday.
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Chris: You can build it yourself if you just want to have two nodes talking to each
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Chris: That is Defined.net slash unplugged. You're going to be impressed.
Chris: So there seems to be a bit of concern over things going on over at Bitwarden.
Chris: And I'm not sure. There's been a leadership shift, some premium price increases,
Chris: some statements about their public mission and community have changed and been changed again.
Chris: And so I just thought we'd discuss this for a moment because I've ended up over
Chris: the years falling back on Bitwarden. Do you still use Bitwarden?
Wes: I do.
Chris: I know, Brent, you never fall down into Bitwarden.
Brent: I've been hesitant.
Chris: Yeah, well, perhaps for good reason. Their new CEO did have a response post
Chris: my first 100 days of Bitwarden where he did say open source is still the foundation
Chris: of everything at Bitwarden.
Chris: But I'm just kind of curious if people are starting to create a Bitwarden backup plan.
Chris: And I'd like to poll the audience. What password manager are you using?
Chris: And does it sync across your devices? And did you move off of Bitwarden?
Wes: Did you move to another hosted service? Did you move to something totally self-hosted,
Wes: Vault Warden, et cetera?
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: Or do you sync around a key pass file, Brent style?
Chris: And I wonder if we can, you know, I mean, I think there's room here for us to
Chris: kind of take what the audience says, review it, come together with what we kind
Chris: of come up with, and maybe create a Bitwarden migration guide because it's something
Chris: you and I might want to consider.
Wes: I know I have seen a few number of folks trying out the Proton password manager.
Wes: Maybe if the audience members have any experience there too.
Chris: And I know the 2FA folks also make a password manager.
Wes: Oh, interesting.
Chris: There's a few options out there these days, key paths and others. So BoostIn...
Chris: Or go to linuxunplugged.com slash
Chris: contact and let us know. We're trying to figure out what to do over here.
Wes: Just don't boost us your passwords. That doesn't work.
Chris: All right. So let's get into it, boys, because we've got three topics.
Chris: I have no idea what they're about. So I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the
Chris: ride, I suppose, because I'm going to go last. That way I get the full effect.
Wes: You're assuming that ours don't involve quizzes for you or any sort of work on your part?
Chris: I hope not. But I've gotten the basic gist that we're going to have a little
Chris: Bose with Brent here, that he has been working with Bose smart speakers to some degree.
Chris: But that's all I really know, Brent. So bring us up to speed, as they say.
Brent: Well, I've been hanging out with my parents lots lately, and they're just as big music folks as I am.
Brent: So they have, years and years and years and years ago, they bought a Bose SoundTouch
Brent: 30, which I guess, I looked it up, I can't believe this, was available from 2013 to 2014.
Brent: So only for a year somehow. But they're around. I've seen them around quite a bit.
Brent: And they use this thing daily. They're just always music playing off this thing.
Brent: And it's the kind of speaker where you can have little presets.
Brent: And they're not super technical, but they have buttons on the top.
Brent: They can go, hey, I want CBC in the morning or whatever.
Brent: Oh, yeah, you might not understand you're in a different country.
Brent: But so they've used the heck out of this thing. It's been a great speaker.
Brent: Sounds great. It's not too huge. And like, it just works.
Brent: Except Bose announced a few months ago that they would stop supporting this speaker.
Brent: And what that means is that any of the presets you had or any of the streaming
Brent: you were using on this speaker would just stop working one day.
Brent: And that day happened just a couple of weeks ago, the 5th of May.
Brent: And I have not seen my parents that angry in a while about a product that they
Brent: purchased because it's a thing that's worked forever.
Brent: They never had to, you know, they set it up once and it just kind of worked.
Brent: And all of a sudden one day they went to do their morning routine of putting
Brent: the radio on and it doesn't work at all.
Brent: And they can't do anything about it. They don't understand why.
Brent: They never got any, you know, an email or whatever saying that they're so.
Brent: But we've seen this happen over and over and over.
Chris: Yeah.
Brent: It
Chris: Reminds me of the first time meme oh your first time huh.
Brent: Ah well some of us have been there before
Brent: so when they bought this thing way back then
Brent: this is the exact reaction i had was like oh it
Brent: it seems great now but we you know been talking about this kind of thing happening
Brent: for the last 10 years at least so i thought i might try to help them with this
Brent: thing because like now it was just basically mostly a brick as far as streaming
Brent: anything goes but you could still use it for Bluetooth,
Brent: which is the main way I was using it when they weren't around.
Brent: And like an AUX connection, but that's never how they were using it.
Brent: So I did a little spelunking around our dear open source communities.
Brent: And it turns out I'm not the only one who wants to solve this.
Brent: And a lot of people have been working quite a bit on this since that announcement, because,
Brent: When Bose announced that they were going to stop supporting this thing,
Brent: there was a massive upheaval.
Brent: And they decided to open source some of the APIs for this speaker,
Brent: or this series of speakers at least.
Brent: And that just has enabled the community to go nuts and make all these tools
Brent: to bring back the functionality to these speakers.
Brent: So from what i've seen the idea is to just make them as useful as they were
Brent: previous and not need bows in the middle which maybe arguably should have been
Brent: how it was designed in the first place.
Brent: But we're here now and luckily this thing's
Brent: not trash because these projects are well along even in
Brent: a couple months and i decided to
Brent: implement this thing maybe i can just rescue my
Brent: parents mornings with music and i
Brent: decided uh to look at how
Brent: to accomplish this because i was like i don't know maybe we can use home assistant
Brent: like an integration or something that can stream music to this thing that's
Brent: always an option uh but it turned out that well of course this thing just runs
Brent: linux right and oh no kidding of course it does and so there are.
Chris: It's got a whole OS on there.
Brent: Maybe questionable design decisions. Like, for instance, they just have Telnet
Brent: access open constantly.
Brent: No authentication needed or anything.
Chris: Yes, good.
Brent: And then the method I used. I mean, that's good for you. Yeah,
Brent: the method I used to get into it is, I was like, well, I'm not that familiar
Brent: with Telnet. I want to use SSH.
Brent: Turns out you could just put an empty file named, you know, remote underscore
Brent: services onto a USB drive.
Brent: Plug that in the back of the thing because it has USB, which I don't know if it should.
Brent: And then it just enables root access to this box.
Chris: Love that.
Brent: With no password or anything.
Chris: Yes.
Brent: So with no password or anything, you just SSH to this thing.
Chris: What could go wrong?
Brent: Questionable, maybe security practices, but it's a benefit for us because this
Brent: thing is super easy to get into.
Brent: I decided to, well, there's a variety of projects that are solving this in interesting ways.
Wes: Like more than one addressing this particular?
Brent: Yeah.
Wes: Like, wow.
Brent: There are various approaches, I guess you could say.
Brent: The one I leaned on after doing quite a bit of research is called Aftertouch,
Brent: which is, you know, sound touch after they canceled this out.
Brent: Anyways, and it is quite complete in the sense that it has excellent documentation
Brent: and allows various options for how to get into the speaker and change basically
Brent: some settings in a variety of ways so that you can host the streaming yourself.
Brent: So instead of Bose being like the person in the middle that sends the streaming
Brent: services to the speaker, you just have either a NAS or a Raspberry Pi.
Brent: You could even use a VPS because they have some...
Brent: Like tls certificates that uh are work
Brent: wonderfully with this thing but the other thing is you could just run this software
Brent: on the speaker itself as well because it's just linux so it can just be standalone
Brent: which is which is amazing i thought it was really well designed because um aftertouch,
Brent: offers a lot of options for how to install this in a variety of places so they have a docker setup,
Brent: also just a native systemd setup that, of course, is the way I went with NixOS.
Brent: But they also have a pi quick installer. So if you have a pi going already,
Brent: you just run one command and it sets everything up for you, which is pretty sweet, I have to say.
Brent: So one of the methods to solve this is to do just a DNS redirect for the BOSE domains.
Brent: That's one of the simpler ways to do it, let's say.
Chris: Because it's still reaching out to their servers?
Brent: Yeah, there's like, I think, three of their servers is constantly reaching out
Brent: to to try to gain information about which streams are available.
Chris: Etc. And then they just shut down the servers on their end.
Brent: Yeah, they just said, well, we don't really want to run this.
Chris: But they left it just sitting there blasting your network. I mean,
Chris: I know it's not a lot of traffic.
Brent: But just the principle of it. I know.
Chris: The principle of it.
Brent: Yeah, yeah.
Chris: Interesting. So you intercept that basically by screwing with the DNS.
Brent: Exactly. And you can do that a variety of ways, right? You could just do it
Brent: on your router or whatever you want.
Brent: But it has to point to something. So you want to run aftertouch somewhere.
Brent: So I decided to run on the little NAS that I have behind me.
Brent: And that was a wonderful way to do it. But I didn't intercept the DNS.
Brent: What I did instead, as the project suggests, is because this thing just has open root,
Brent: once you plug in a simple little USB drive, you can go in and just change the
Brent: DNS entries and point them to where you need them.
Brent: So you don't even need to intercept them. You just tell the speaker, go look here instead.
Brent: And AfterTouch supplies basically a couple things. So one thing is you can use
Brent: a web UI to do all of the migration of the speaker.
Brent: So as long as you have the service running and the speakers on the same network,
Brent: it'll just auto detect the speaker.
Brent: And then there's a big migrate button and that'll change all of the entries
Brent: for you, which is awesome and makes it super, super simple.
Brent: So there's that part. And then it also provides a bunch of access to streams
Brent: and stuff. So you get the exact same functionality, and you don't need Bose at all.
Brent: I kind of wish this was available a long, long time ago. Like,
Brent: they should just open source this stuff from the start. It's going to happen anyways.
Chris: It almost makes a guy want to go on eBay and pick one up.
Brent: Well, that's what I've been thinking about is...
Brent: We're lucky because we have the know-how to do this. And it was relatively simple for people like us.
Brent: But my parents would have never, ever done this. So, like, give it a couple
Brent: more weeks, they would have chucked this thing or, you know,
Brent: that's the danger is like they're perfectly usable speakers.
Brent: But how many people are just going to?
Chris: Not only are they usable still, but they like the sound. And it's not necessarily
Chris: going to happen for, you know, they replace that with something else.
Chris: They might not like the sound.
Chris: It's got, those speakers have a unique sound to them and people enjoy it.
Brent: I, uh, sneaky turn down the bass like to negative five because it has that setting
Brent: too. And I, they're so bassy. I don't like it anyway.
Chris: Yeah, they are. They're very bass heavy. Yeah.
Brent: So, so it's pretty sweet. Um, now the UI has a bunch of information,
Brent: a bunch of technical information, which I like.
Brent: But also from the perspective of let's say my parents,
Brent: they just get to use it so I was able to reprogram all their touch buttons as
Brent: well to what they had before and they're not even going to know that it's doing anything different,
Brent: but I know that it is because now it's all completely local and I can run the
Brent: server myself and I am highly considering just running that service on the speaker
Brent: itself because I have another box to do it, right?
Brent: And so that's the little project I've been working on this week trying to solve
Brent: that That is neat. I would say, job's finished.
Chris: It's, job's finished. It's kind of remarkable, the community. So you have Aftertouch.
Chris: Obviously, there's SoundCork and there's others. They've really taken advantage
Chris: of what's available here.
Wes: Did you get a sense, like, okay, so obviously there's this model,
Wes: but, like, how many models are supported by these various efforts? How new can you go?
Wes: Like, what does this open up?
Brent: I think a lot of these sprung up around the SoundTouch models specifically,
Brent: which have a lot of similar architecture.
Brent: I'm not aware of all of the models, but there's like a SoundTouch 10,
Brent: which I think is a smaller version of this.
Brent: And this thing is a 30, which is probably the size of like a tiny suitcase,
Brent: like a carry on or something like that. But I would imagine,
Brent: a lot of the design of these speakers is common with some other more modern ones.
Brent: So I would imagine you're going to
Brent: see this expanding to, to include other speakers as well. I sure hope so.
Chris: I just wish there was a general speaker OS that was just this. It was just this.
Brent: Yeah.
Chris: I also see in here that they support the stereo pairing that these Bose speakers can do.
Wes: Oh, that's nice.
Chris: In the past required, I think a cloud account.
Brent: Yeah. Yeah, there's, I mean, that's kind of the joy for what Bose ended up doing
Brent: here under pressure, was open sourcing the API for all of this.
Brent: So it means there's a command line program now that you can just access every
Brent: single function that was in there. So I've included a link to the PDF that Bose sent out.
Brent: And I think they could have probably open sourced more of it,
Brent: but at least what they did give was enough to get all this functionality back.
Brent: So the stereo pairing functionality is like, if you have several of both speakers,
Brent: you can either set them up beside each other and have a stereo environment or
Brent: in separate rooms, right?
Brent: Because they just run off the network. So they're just touching each other and
Brent: you can have them streaming synced between various rooms or different floors
Brent: in your house or something like that.
Brent: So with i would say these might
Brent: be hitting ebay really cheap real soon so maybe it's an opportunity to grab
Brent: a bunch of them chris you and i were trying to find a speaker system for when
Brent: we're working on cars this would be kind of perfect yeah we'll come around this
Brent: yeah come around the shop good to go up an ebay alert i think is uh is the real lesson here today.
Chris: Nice catch. And it's nice for the folks, too. And a nice way to solve that.
Chris: So that was the Bose SoundTouch 30 with the code name Mojo.
Brent: It is. That's a good code name. It's got more Mojo now, I would say.
Chris: Yeah.
Brent: Lots of Mojo.
Chris: You brought back the Mojo.
Brent: Well done. I wonder if we'll get extra functionality, too, once the projects
Brent: kind of implement all of the initial functionality.
Brent: Like, keep dreaming. Let's go nuts.
Wes: I'm curious. Did you detect sort of what the possibility for a prank mode might be?
Wes: You know, like it looks like it's going to play the audio you request,
Wes: but it just plays Rickroll every time, something like that, or Linux Unplugged, random episodes.
Brent: Yeah, I was able to find Linux Unplugged through the streaming services,
Brent: so I was going to put that on one of their presets.
Chris: Every Sunday morning, just have Kron turn it to the JBLive.fm stream.
Wes: There we go.
Brent: Yeah, that'd be awesome. Unfortunately, it didn't stream, so I'll have to put
Brent: in a bug report or something, and we'll get that working.
Chris: All right. I do want a chicken coop speaker, so you never, you never. Thank you, Brownlee.
Brent: You're welcome.
Chris: All right. So I know it's time for This Is The Way with Wes,
Chris: and it looks like Wes took a look, a first look at Nasty.
Wes: Yeah, that's right.
Chris: And Nasty is getting a lot of attention in the NixOS, Bcash, and Rust communities.
Wes: Which we don't have any interest in.
Chris: So it's an interesting cross-section, and I've been seeing a lot of talk online
Chris: about it, so I'm glad you took a first look. Tell us about it.
Wes: Yeah, okay, so Nasty, it's GPL3 effort from Bartosz Fenski.
Wes: I'm looking back on it, and I realized that first, I first saw it being posted
Wes: about in the BcacheFS subreddit, because it's a NAS appliance-like project with
Wes: BcacheFS under the hood.
Wes: And we'll get more into how it works, but it came out on April 1st,
Wes: and it was sort of a, it was billed as a mostly vibe-coded BcacheFS NAS.
Wes: You know, it seemed sort of experimental, like a new project.
Wes: And that's kind of how I took it. And then I saw that it kept getting posted
Wes: about. It looked like regular progress, good sound and updates.
Wes: And then, I don't know, 10 episodes back or so, we made it a pick.
Wes: It's something just to keep an eye on.
Wes: And I thought, well, they've had even more releases. They've made some big switches recently.
Wes: And it seemed like it was probably time to really see if there was some there
Wes: there. Because, of course, we have had mixed feelings on the show of various... Nases.
Wes: Yeah, right? Some are really nice. They can work for some people.
Wes: It's been a struggle for us to necessarily adopt them for our own particular
Wes: workflows but we are very bcachefs curious.
Chris: And and we're nixos friendly so it seems like if there was going to be one that
Chris: got us it would probably be nasty because it's sort of in our our wheelhouse if you will say.
Wes: That was kind of the hope here.
Chris: It is a good name right and it so it builds itself on the github page as it
Chris: turns commodity hardware into a storage appliance serving nfs samba i scuzzy
Chris: and envy me over whatever. What is that? OF.
Chris: Managed from a single web UI. Updated atomically and rolled back.
Chris: I don't know. Like I'm using MVME over anything.
Wes: Oh, it's MVME over fabrics.
Chris: Like I'm using it over anything these days. Oh, it so stinks.
Chris: I got an MVME that's overheating at home, so I want to replace it.
Chris: I go online and look. Everything's crazy expensive, and I've never even heard
Chris: of these vendors before.
Wes: Oh, no.
Chris: There's some Chinese name I can't pronounce. So you're buying it from some third-tier vendor.
Chris: The state MVME. If you've got MVMEs, you've got literal gold. Right now.
Chris: But so, yeah, that's what Nasty pitches itself as.
Chris: And like Wes said, looks like it's using Bcache, compression,
Chris: checksumming, erasure coding, tiering encryption and snapshots,
Chris: which is really interesting.
Chris: It also brings sub volume support, encryption lifecycle support and backups,
Chris: including deduplication, incremental backups to local S3, SFTP,
Chris: REST, Backblaze B2 and per profile schedules and retention.
Wes: Yeah, I was impressed by how much is already in here, right?
Wes: Because it isn't just the core NAS part about managing the disks and interacting with BeacHFS.
Wes: That's all there too, right? But like there's all kind of backups,
Wes: alerts, firewall management, TLS stuff. You can do Let's Encrypt up.
Wes: It has a tail scale integration, sort of automatic if you want to plug into
Wes: your tail net really easily to allow remote access.
Wes: It has a capability to spin up VMs for you as well as what they call apps,
Wes: which are really just Docker containers.
Wes: Which you can run sort of like directly by putting the container info in in
Wes: the gui or it has a spot to drop a docker compose if you want so that's kind
Wes: of nice yeah so there's just kind of like a lot happening which can be good
Wes: or bad right we have mixed feelings on this and with some of these.
Wes: Projects but what made me curious of course was it's nix os and then it's powered
Wes: by a rust demon under the hood and so like actually getting it running in a
Wes: vm kind of getting configured with some like test disks which are just all virtualized
Wes: right now i haven't put it on real hardware yet,
Wes: um and then kind of seeing like well what does it look like
Wes: and it had a pretty basic little installer kind of with like
Wes: a nix os install okay but that was easy enough i think the download
Wes: was like less than two gigs for the iso and then it
Wes: was using maybe like four gigs on disk when i got everything installed it
Wes: does kind of have a nice option where you can either opt
Wes: to use an entire disk just like this is your nasty
Wes: os drive and then you'll have other disks on the system that you use actually
Wes: for whatever your pool is going to be yeah but it does have an option to just
Wes: take up like a certain amount of space of the disk and put the os there and
Wes: then leave the rest of main available for storage so i thought that was kind
Wes: of a nice touch that you know didn't actually need to have yeah.
Wes: What's interesting here is it turns out Nix OS is kind of just the provisioning layer.
Wes: So it's there just to kind of provide the kernel modules, the base system d
Wes: units, the base packages and software that you're going to need for this thing.
Wes: And the Rust engine is kind of the real runtime.
Chris: Oh, really?
Wes: Yes. So it keeps a bunch, kind of like Cosmic, it keeps a bunch of JSON files
Wes: in varlib nasty, which just follows directly the Nix OS pattern of just using
Wes: varlib for the application state.
Wes: And what's great about that is the state can be easily checkpointed,
Wes: snapshotted, and backed up because basically all the stuff that you do in the
Wes: UI is just stored in those JSON files.
Wes: So if you toggle your Samba shares on or NFS exports, that kind of stuff,
Wes: you don't do a whole NixOS rebuild because a lot of this stuff isn't in NixOS.
Wes: It's sort of dynamically applied by the Rust runtime to Systemd.
Wes: But it's still kept in a way that you can manage.
Chris: I noticed they also offer a 2E, so then I would imagine you can toggle it.
Chris: Either way, that's going to write to the JSON settings.
Wes: Right. And there's still some stuff, like I think some of the firewall stuff,
Wes: like there is some stuff that's built at the NixOS layer, and so that does require
Wes: NixOS rebuild, but the daemon just does that under the hood for you anyway.
Wes: So you don't really have to interact.
Brent: I have a question here. Wes, how do you feel about that architecture decision?
Wes: I think it makes sense for what they're doing. they're trying
Wes: to compete with the high level
Wes: of dynamic behavior that you see
Wes: in a lot of these style of application so if
Wes: your entire goal is like I want a purely
Wes: mixed managed infrastructure as code approach this
Wes: isn't quite that it does have sort of
Wes: a like the JSON side of it means that you do get a more effectively declarative
Wes: style of approach but it's not necessarily quite the same is like a the same
Wes: ux of writing something that's meant to be that right it's more about having
Wes: a nice way to capture the state and have it be easy to introspect and edit and
Wes: back up and manipulate or diff even,
Wes: So it kind of depends on what, like, how much you need, you know,
Wes: do you want a nice UI that you know you can go toggle things on and when you
Wes: click the enable Samba button, like, you don't have to do a full rebuild of
Wes: the NixOS stuff, it just does it for you.
Chris: So in your opinion, is this, I guess what I'm trying to get at here is,
Chris: could you use this thing and never have to touch the UI?
Wes: Yeah, I don't know, I don't think it's meant for that.
Chris: Okay.
Wes: So I don't know that there's a great interface to go manipulate those JSON files.
Wes: If you were willing to make the JSON files, then yeah, totally.
Wes: I don't think there's a great, it looks like maybe they're starting some REST API.
Wes: Right now a lot of it is web sockets between the Svelte UI JavaScript layer
Wes: and then the Rust engine backend.
Chris: Yeah, but it does look like that's something they're working on here,
Chris: JSON RPC 2.0 over web sockets.
Wes: Yeah. And so I think there's probably a version of that where you could have
Wes: it more be programmatically exposed to just talk to the engine directly and
Wes: have it synchronized to the state.
Chris: Seems like you're kind of impressed with it, though.
Wes: Well, there's just more here than I thought. Like, it might be one of the nicer
Wes: ways if you want to play with BcacheFS.
Wes: Because, like, there's a nice UI that walks you through building the array,
Wes: and it does support encryption, and it supports compression,
Wes: and it supports various redundancy levels and stuff.
Wes: I don't know if it's strictly everything, because there's, like,
Wes: a lot of options you can do with BcacheFS, but it's a lot more than,
Wes: like, even I've probably tried, right, just in terms of building different styles of arrays.
Wes: And because it's nix west you know that the like dkms situations well
Wes: managed it's all handled for an appliance so you don't really have to worry about like how do
Wes: you get it and how is it well supported because it's just built in
Wes: from that i mean i'm not saying go put all your data on the system right
Wes: now right it is very much pre i mean it's like version 008
Wes: they just did a big switch for like the app stuff
Wes: is now powered by caddy instead of nginx which makes lets it be
Wes: a little more dynamic and they can they kind of automatically let
Wes: you do if you want to set up like a subdomain system per app that
Wes: can just happen automatically right off the top of your appliance so you
Wes: kind of get some of the things you can do nicely in a clean way on
Wes: a modern linux system but with a helper ui on top like you can go run like it's
Wes: easy to get root ssh on there no problem there's a terminal in the ui you can
Wes: use so you can just go run docker containers yourself that's not a problem you
Wes: can introspect the state you can kind of manipulate things but you don't have to.
Chris: It is very fascinating to watch the momentum of this.
Chris: Like a few of these projects we've been covering recently, they committed five
Chris: minutes ago on a Sunday while we're live streaming and recording.
Chris: Like they're working just nonstop on this stuff. There's a real momentum and,
Chris: you know, people contributing.
Chris: So I'd say it's growing. It's just two contributors at the moment, but it's growing.
Chris: It looks good. Worth keeping an eye on, but not worth switching your data over
Chris: to yet. It's sort of the final verdict.
Wes: Yeah, I mean, if you want something that's going to be steady and not have any
Wes: major changes of architecture or something, I don't think it's there yet, right?
Wes: It's still pretty new. But I do think it's worth, it's a nice entrance into
Wes: the space of available sort of appliances for this because it feels leaner.
Wes: It feels more introspectable.
Wes: It kind of feels like a little bit more of a modern architecture for how you
Wes: might build one of these today. And I like that.
Chris: Yeah. Thank you, Wes. Check out Nasty. We'll have links in the show notes.
Chris: I want to thank Connect 10 Internet. They're not a sponsor, but I did reach
Chris: out to them to get a discount for you.
Chris: Jupiter 35 will get $35 off your total order.
Chris: Connect 10 Internet offers high-speed, reliable Internet services across the
Chris: U.S. and Canada, and I've been utilizing them for my backup Internet connection.
Chris: They have services for everybody that wants to use it for backup Internet to
Chris: people that want to use it for high-speed data with high priority.
Chris: So they offer truly unlimited plans with no data caps and high-priority data.
Chris: I like them, so I said, hey, I'm going to talk about you mostly in next week's
Chris: episode. But they got me a discount code early, so I'm telling you about it
Chris: now. It's Jupyter35, and it'll take $35 off your order.
Chris: And they just came out with this killer idea.
Chris: $39 a month, and it's a backup Internet plan.
Chris: So they have a slick router that auto-monitors your connection.
Chris: And when your main internet goes down, they instantly connect to one of their
Chris: four major wireless carriers, they just bundle all four.
Chris: And then when your mainline internet comes back online, it switches you back automatically.
Chris: Uh, now I just built this using Linux and then like they contacted me and they're
Chris: like, Hey, guess what? We got this new thing.
Chris: And I'm like, we think it's perfect for you. And I'm like, two weeks ago.
Wes: It is perfect for me.
Chris: Yeah. Uh, so I'm using something different. I'm using like they have this fortress
Chris: router. How would you describe this thing? Brent? It's like,
Chris: it's fortress is a great name for it.
Brent: It kind of looks like a spider with a ton of antennae coming out of it.
Brent: And it's, it's industrially built. You can take it apart and look at what's
Brent: inside if you want to undo many, many, many, many screws. But it's very waterproof.
Brent: You can throw this thing around if you need to. It's been all the way to California
Brent: and back for some reason. It's a great device.
Chris: It really is. And it is very robust. We put it up way high on top of a barn.
Chris: And I'm just getting crazy internet speeds.
Chris: And it picks the best network in the area.
Chris: And this device runs OpenWRT. It's an impressive bit of kit.
Chris: So it's connect10internet.com. I'll put a link in the show notes.
Chris: That's connect10internet.com. And if you use the promo code Jupiter35,
Chris: they'll take $35 off your plan.
Chris: And they do have that new $39. They'll take $35 off your order.
Chris: And they have that $39 backup internet plan. I just realized there's a lot of
Chris: numbers that are confusing.
Chris: So to make it clear, Jupiter35 is the promo code. It takes $35 off your entire order one time.
Chris: And they have that $39 backup internet plan. Does that make sense?
Chris: I hope so. It's a lot of numbers.
Wes: It sounds like a good deal.
Chris: It is a good deal. I'm really impressed because I can both connect to 5G and 4G.
Chris: And the way I had solved this in the past was I had multiple carrier plans.
Chris: And then I have a pep link that would just combine or switch between.
Chris: But you had to have actual like multiple SIM cards in this device with multiple
Chris: plans. And now Connect 10 just puts it all in one service.
Chris: They are the meta provider. and they have the gear to switch between the networks
Chris: for the one that has the best signal and has given you the best data.
Chris: I just think it's super cool. It's been working really well.
Chris: Like I flipped over in the evening,
Chris: Peak time and was getting 120 megabits down during peak traffic.
Chris: And I was like, this is great. And that's just like, you know,
Chris: worst case. That's worst case for me. It's really awesome.
Chris: So that's my worst case speed. So go check it out, connect10internet.com.
Chris: We'll put a link in the show notes, and the promo code is Jupyter35.
Chris: And next week I plan to talk more about some of the backup internet infrastructure
Chris: that I've been building at the farm.
Chris: And they were a big part of making all that work. I've been really impressed.
Chris: So it's promo code jupiter35connect10internet.com.
Brent: Well, two of us have gone so far, I think, with some interesting projects.
Brent: But there are three hosts on this here show.
Brent: So, Chris, what did you get into this week?
Chris: Boys, you know I've been doing the OpenClaw thing now for quite a while.
Chris: I set up a dedicated Lenovo ThinkCenter that's running or was running OpenClaw.
Chris: Um and uh as time went on i started using them for more and more serious things
Chris: i think it's so funny when people say what do you use it for what do you use
Chris: it for like dude everything like what your imagination is the limit um.
Brent: It's i have these from like watching you use it it's one of those tools that
Brent: you don't know what you're going to use it for until you like integrate the
Brent: tool into your routine or you have it near you and then you're like oh wait
Brent: a second this is gonna do way more than you could have ever imagined before
Brent: you even integrate into your life.
Brent: So I think the answer to the question, what are you going to do with it is like, just.
Chris: Yeah, and I think, you know, a clarifying thing for me was having a small business
Chris: that has a thousand tasks that needs done and I only have time for 10 of them.
Wes: That's a big use case for sure.
Chris: So I was like, oh, well, all right, that needs solved, that needs solved,
Chris: that needs solved, that needs solved.
Chris: So I have agents that prep clips for me, you know, based on the stuff that I
Chris: feed them. They prep the clips for me.
Chris: They monitor the infrastructure for me. They read alerts.
Chris: They can update the home. I have three different home assistant instances that
Chris: they are monitoring and updating. They're working with Git to make sure the
Chris: projects are getting checked in and managed.
Chris: They're keeping my Nix boxes maintained.
Chris: And they also deploy infrastructure. And then on top of that,
Chris: there's reporting that they're providing me.
Chris: There's email summaries that they're getting using the GWS CLI.
Chris: A lot of stuff in there. There's a lot that I use them for. Ordering your groceries.
Brent: Yep.
Chris: Ordering my groceries is another one. I know it sounds silly,
Chris: but how many times are you walking around the house and you're like, oh, I need to get this?
Chris: Or you open up the fridge like oh i'm out of butter and then five minutes goes
Chris: by and you completely forgot to ever put it on any list and then you're at the
Chris: grocery store like what the crap was i what was it so i just i just fire off
Chris: to the bot really quick we're out of butter and then it uses the kroger api
Chris: and it adds my preferred butter to the shopping cart so.
Wes: Great it's also like for me it's useful for that too but it can also then help
Wes: build like now i can interface better with that stuff and start recording that
Wes: and then have a data set of my own locally not dependent on their database.
Chris: Yeah that's what i do too as i have a preferences.json file with all my brands
Chris: and sizes and flavor preferences and all that that's all built in my own data
Chris: set that would move to any other api and.
Wes: You can like you know save all of your orders see how you know your own local
Wes: rate of inflation measure how your preferences change over time whatever you want.
Chris: And as i started using it it kind of went from could it do this could this work
Chris: to, well, this needs to work now.
Chris: I'm not doing that task anymore, so this needs to work.
Chris: And the reality was is that I had built this around OpenClaw very early on when it was still called,
Chris: Claude something.
Wes: Right. Claudebot?
Chris: Whatever it was. And then Moabot. And then OpenClaw. It's funny.
Chris: See, it seemed like such a big deal back then.
Chris: And it just went through all the transitions. And then a lot of things I solved
Chris: for, like memory and other problems, like excluding plugins and all this stuff,
Chris: the project started solving for and replacing the solution that I had built for it.
Chris: And then I would have to spend time adapting to their new solution.
Wes: And not just once.
Chris: Every week?
Wes: I mean, yeah.
Chris: Every week. Yeah. Also, there's this problem that I have with OpenClaw.
Chris: I still think it's a great project. I'm just telling you what I ran into.
Chris: It's one control gateway. Many agents, one control gateway.
Chris: And that is useful for certain things, but not for how I use it. I'll get into that more.
Wes: Yeah, I had a good... OpenClaw is fundamentally basically like a channel-first harness.
Wes: It's like really built around connecting to these channels of talking to you,
Wes: whether that's WhatsApp or Telegram or Slack or whatever it is.
Wes: And Hermes has a different architecture.
Chris: So I decided to try out Hermes. I liked a couple of things about it.
Chris: It's Python-based versus Node-based.
Chris: And I will be honest, I do like that. The project natively ships a flake.nix.
Chris: So they got my attention with that.
Chris: The other thing they do that I just sort of appreciate as somebody that's using
Chris: it in production is so far they seem to have sort of thematically focused releases.
Chris: So OpenClaw, they ship very fast and they just kind of include everything that
Chris: they have ready in each release where Hermes kind of is a little bit more planned.
Chris: This release focuses on this set of features.
Chris: This release focuses on security and then this release focuses on another set
Chris: of features and it's a little more implicit and thought through that way.
Chris: I just find that release cadence works a little bit better for me.
Chris: But the thing that really works for me is instead of one big gateway with Hermes,
Chris: each agent has its own gateway.
Chris: And at first I was like, oh, what a mess. But man, is that great.
Chris: Because not only does it make it super easy for each agent to use their own
Chris: model, which is great for an agent that can just use a cheap free model or a
Chris: local model that doesn't need to do a lot. Another one can use a heavy lift model.
Chris: But it also means when I want to make configuration changes,
Chris: I'm only restarting one agent's gateway at a time. And my other agents don't get taken down.
Chris: And so far this hasn't happened. But if they blow up their config,
Chris: I'm not taking the other agents out. Although it hasn't blown up the config yet.
Wes: Yeah, this is what it calls profiles, right? So you can have different profiles
Wes: where you each kind of get their whole own setup, which you would get with a
Wes: single OpenClaw instance.
Wes: And then you can do all the normal stuff so they can have their own subagents
Wes: or do whatever you need to, but they can function independently.
Wes: And you had already sort of adopted that architecture in your own personal world.
Wes: And it's another case where OpenClaw hadn't really got there.
Wes: And now there are other models out there that is just a natural one-to-one fit
Wes: for how you already use it.
Brent: Chris is just too bleeding edge. it seems.
Chris: Well, there's just different approaches too. I think, you know,
Chris: one of the things, if I were really trying to build my own complete thing,
Chris: but I wanted to base it off something, I might either just go straight to Pi or I might use OpenClaw.
Chris: Hermes has another thing that I just want to mention, because I know it's one
Chris: of the first things that comes up, is they have what is called this closed learning
Chris: loop, where they have agent curated memory that kind of goes through and automatically
Chris: creates skills for complex tasks that it's noticed it's been asked to do.
Chris: And it uses, you know, some LLM summarization to go through and build a skill
Chris: and it auto creates skills for itself.
Chris: This is both a good thing and a bad thing, in my opinion. I think it can be
Chris: a bad thing in the sense that if you're practicing, say I'm building out a swag
Chris: pipeline and the commands aren't right, something isn't right.
Chris: It could accidentally auto learn the wrong thing, the wrong tool call, the wrong path.
Chris: And so you have to kind of be, I think you have to watch it.
Chris: At least that's in my opinion.
Wes: You probably want to be auditing the changes it's making to your skills.
Chris: So that's what I've done is my agents say this is what I've auto-learned and
Chris: I have to approve the auto-learning right now. I'm just kind of watching it that way.
Chris: But the Hermes system seems to be really, really solid.
Chris: The skill system is excellent. The memory system, I think, is quite good.
Chris: I not only have a good markdown-based memory system, but then I'm using an external
Chris: memory system for some of the more vector-type-based stuff.
Chris: It feels a little bit faster, too. It seems like it responds a little bit faster.
Wes: Yeah it seemed like it had very clean and well documented extension
Wes: points so like for your stuff with like you had even
Wes: experimented with writing your own open claw plugin yeah and
Wes: it's totally possible to do but it just felt like
Wes: like instead of having to conform to this whole plugin architecture here you
Wes: kind of just basically implement like a version of an abstract class in python
Wes: and it was just like a simple clean well-documented api that you could really
Wes: implement with whatever and there's already a bunch of python things that interface
Wes: to all of these Rust built vector engines or whatever you're actually tying in.
Chris: Yeah. And a lot of them have MCPs. I want to note something though because transitioning
Chris: between an agent harness like OpenClaw to Hermes isn't like moving from Debian
Chris: to Fedora. It's a different kind of,
Chris: hop, I guess. It's a different kind of transition. In a way,
Chris: it's maybe easier because these things are so text-based, so markdown-based.
Chris: Things live in sort of the same common things like a soul.md and an agents.md,
Chris: and the memories on both systems are markdown-based, that the migration path
Chris: is surprisingly clean, if not just slightly time-consuming, depending on how
Chris: you do it, but it's not like a jarring change.
Chris: I don't know if I'm putting it right, but it's not, And not that moving distros
Chris: is like this huge, jarring change, but it feels like less of a transition than
Chris: maybe just swapping from Debian to Fedora.
Wes: Probably helps, too, to go from OpenClaw, just in the sense that,
Wes: like, it's so big. It had so much momentum that I think there are a lot of folks,
Wes: too, that were incentivized to also have a similar architecture and or well
Wes: support folks coming over from it.
Wes: But yeah right not only do you can you use sort of helper intelligence tools
Wes: to do some of the migration but a lot of it like you know it has to store state
Wes: to persist between its its loops anyway so like it all kind of needs to be in
Wes: these folders you just might need to update some config files or use different
Wes: config files to get it running yeah.
Chris: The trickiest stuff comes down to don't run both gateways at the same time trying
Chris: to use the same telegram bot token or whatever you're like that's the trickiest bit.
Wes: How do you do the cutover yeah just don't.
Chris: Have token collision for whatever chat platform you're using.
Wes: And that's kind of just standard Linux sysadmin operational thing.
Chris: Yeah, yeah. Also, I'm so impressed with how far you can get with a good set
Chris: of skills and some wrappers with these free or cheap open source models like
Chris: Minimax and Kimmy and Quinn.
Chris: It's a massive unlock that I don't think our community has fully wrapped their
Chris: head around because at least I don't see people talking about it.
Chris: I don't think what I'm about to say is any huge,
Chris: massive discovery of some master
Chris: AI workflow that turns these things from ambiguous to deterministic.
Chris: But it is such a rock solid workflow. I'm surprised I don't hear people screaming
Chris: about it from the top of the hill.
Chris: And it's a way to take advantage of free models or cheap models like DeepSeek, like Minimax.
Chris: And it's simple. You set yourself an actual little bit of a budget to go burn
Chris: some money on a frontier model like a ChatGipity or like a Claude.
Chris: And then you use something like open code.
Chris: Connected to one of these higher-end models. And again, you're just,
Chris: you know, set yourself 25 bucks, right? It's not going to be a big deal.
Chris: And you have these higher-end models operate your agent, be it OpenClaw,
Chris: Hermes, whatever it is, have it operate it like a puppet because they all have
Chris: command line interfaces and MCPs and ACPs.
Chris: So you can have OpenCode using GPT 5.5 operate a Minimax-based agent like a
Chris: puppet. it. And while it's operating that thing through its job,
Chris: you can have it sit there and watch and monitor everything the agent does.
Chris: Every mistake it makes, every wrong tool call it makes, as it tries to figure
Chris: itself out where it got ambiguous in the instructions, the bigger powered model can watch all of that.
Chris: And then you tell it, where does it need improvement? It goes back,
Chris: it hardens up the skills, it improves the wrappers, and you do the run again.
Chris: And you have the bigger model watch one more time. Maybe you do it three times.
Chris: And you just do it till there's no mistakes. And from that point forward,
Chris: that cheaper model is going to execute that task without issue just about every single time.
Chris: I don't care if it's LLM or what, because you're combining scripts,
Chris: you're combining wrappers and skills into something that is actually a very
Chris: solid workflow where the LLM isn't making up a bunch of stuff.
Chris: It's following a very specific sequence using very specific tools,
Chris: and it produces the same result every time. It's reliable. And I don't know
Chris: why this is like one of the bigger conversations in this space,
Chris: because it's so simple and straightforward and produces incredible results.
Chris: So what did I do after I migrated from OpenClaw to Hermes? I brought up OpenCode.
Chris: Put 25 bucks on OpenRouter, used Jippity55, and I had it just orchestrate all
Chris: the tasks I normally have these agents do under OpenClaw.
Chris: Now do it under Hermes. Watch everything that breaks.
Chris: Wrong skill path, wrong tool code. What didn't it get right under this new system?
Chris: And then it just went through boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, and fixed every
Chris: agent line by line by line on anything that came up.
Chris: And within like, I don't know, probably a day of just like, oh,
Chris: I'll try this. How did it do? I was done.
Chris: Everything had been caught and it was working. And that is such a powerful combination.
Chris: I mean, I mean, there's the stuff I'm doing with these things is really incredible
Chris: from from cutting clips to creating T-shirts. It's really amazing.
Chris: And it's all going each point. You know, I have quality gates where humans have
Chris: to interact and improve things like it's it's really solid.
Chris: And doing such, I can get by on these models that probably by the end of next
Chris: year, I'm going to be running on my own local hardware.
Wes: Yeah, right. You kind of I think it plays to a lot of different strengths in
Wes: that we've seen, you know, some models are good at, quote unquote,
Wes: thinking. and doing complex planning or, you know, debating pros and cons or
Wes: planning architecture.
Wes: And other models are really reliable sort of tool callers and loot creatures.
Wes: Yeah, exactly. Better hands than they are at, you know, actual sky-high architects.
Wes: And so you can leverage both of those things and then helps as well,
Wes: as you say, right, with the token budget of like, you only really need the top
Wes: level of intelligence for certain parts of those tasks.
Wes: And especially in the initial sort of training phase. And then maybe if something
Wes: breaks or, you know, something goes awry or whatever, but.
Chris: Yeah, or you have a big model change and maybe you want to run through it again
Chris: and make sure nothing major changes or API goes from version one to version two.
Chris: And yeah, yeah, do those kinds of updates. So you need a way for some kind of
Chris: lifecycle management. So probably something that's get backed and something
Chris: that has a startup document that tells a new fresh LLM session.
Chris: These are where your skills are at. This is how I deploy them.
Chris: And when you do that, all of my stuff is Nix backed.
Chris: All the skills get deployed via Nix. So if the agent wants to update its skills,
Chris: it has to stage it in the Nix repository first. and then everything is checked in via Git.
Chris: So if a skill goes sideways, if I made a wrong update, I can roll back.
Chris: And nothing goes live into production without going through the Nix process.
Chris: And to me, this is where Hermes really, for just me personally,
Chris: kind of went to the next level over OpenClaw where it felt like I was always
Chris: fighting that with OpenClaw.
Chris: Hermes just leans into the configuration I want. And for others,
Chris: it totally supports other configurations. But for me, this integration was tight.
Wes: I mean, and so what folks might not appreciate is that,
Wes: you have spent a lot of time fighting with nix and open claw and i as have i
Wes: i mean we started jointly maintaining
Wes: a custom package for it we did yeah because like we were just github.
Chris: Actions building stuff for us in the background after each update.
Wes: Yeah and it would like strip any
Wes: non-linux non-x86 part from like the npm packages there was so much like.
Chris: Windows cuda stuff in there and mac os stuff.
Wes: Which did not make sense to download over starlink so it's like with open claw
Wes: it's right It's like an NPM project, and then there is Nix-OpenClaw,
Wes: which is hosted under their org and is, I don't know, semi-official.
Wes: It seemed to be community-done, but recognized as a thing by the project.
Chris: And didn't really seem to follow releases, but more like just snapshots from development.
Chris: So there wasn't like a one-to-one, there's been an OpenClaw release,
Chris: and it doesn't necessarily match to this Nix-OpenClaw release.
Chris: Like, the two are not insane.
Wes: Yes, it was more like, where is Nix-OpenClaw caught up to in the commits from the upstream?
Wes: And so it worked, and it was there, but sometimes there were delays.
Wes: They've been better, it seems, recently, but there was a while,
Wes: especially when we were forced to sort of start our own, that it was taking
Wes: a little while to get updates.
Wes: Versus Hermes, they just have a flaked on Nix right in there.
Wes: They're using UV and the UV to Nix sort of Python integration right there.
Wes: It seems like a well-done thing that is intentional, and that seems like a sign
Wes: of the overall sort of difference between the projects.
Chris: Oh, and it makes my life so much easier. And if it's something I'm running in
Chris: production on that particular system, it just makes sense. A couple other things I like is it has a 2E.
Chris: I know that's silly, but what I found is,
Chris: I can code, or whatever, I can do long sessions in a TUI.
Chris: All day, right? But Telegram, that's for one-shots.
Chris: Telegram's one-shots, and I could not imagine building an application,
Chris: or usually for us, it's some back-end tool via Telegram.
Wes: It's just not the right interface for it.
Chris: I can't do it.
Brent: Especially, like, the bots are good. It's surrounded by distractions, too, right?
Chris: Yeah, yeah.
Brent: Give me a minimal TUI. That's what I want.
Chris: Yeah, people know I'm online, they're chat-chatting with me, and the
Chris: TUI is really good it's really good they've really done
Chris: a good job i mean it's like you know up there with open code
Chris: and codex and the other ones and then brent you
Chris: might like this feature i just started playing with it just to
Chris: talk about it on the show and kind of ended up liking it is it has a built-in
Chris: kanban board for agent orchestration and project management and you what you
Chris: can do is provide it with a spec and then as a spec decomposer and it breaks
Chris: it down into individual steps and builds out a Kanban board.
Chris: Kanban. And then you can watch the Kanban and see like what's in progress,
Chris: what's blocked, what's the next thing.
Chris: You can move things around, add your own, open them up, see the work log,
Chris: add comments, inject comments.
Chris: So it's got boards, tasks, links, workspaces.
Chris: You can assign different agents, different jobs. You can have a default coder
Chris: agent. Mine's called Scotty.
Wes: I think the thing that's most interesting for me here is it's neat how it's
Wes: like it's not just the board.
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: It's sort of the integration with like a work dispatcher to actually run the board.
Chris: Yes. That's the best part. And it's a CLI. It's a database. So you can have
Chris: the agents just use it for their own backend task management,
Chris: and then you just use the dashboard to look at it, or you can interact with
Chris: it and create tasks for them. It's either one.
Wes: I like that.
Chris: It's not just a throwaway thing. It's deeply integrated, and that is nice.
Chris: And because there's a CLI for it, the agents can just, oh, yeah,
Chris: I'll go update that task for you. No problem. So you don't even have to do that part.
Chris: But it is a nice way to manage all of it.
Chris: It's just an example of something they've built. And they've built in several
Chris: things that are just nice to have quality of life stuff.
Chris: And I like it. I like the design. I like the performance. I like the reliability
Chris: so far. We've gone through a couple updates. I like it.
Brent: I do see a really, hmm, fascinating little detail here in their quick install.
Brent: It says, oh, yeah, quick install. You can do it on Linux, macOS, WSL2.
Brent: All of those are expected. And the fourth one here, it says Termux.
Brent: So they're officially supporting running this thing on an Android device.
Brent: I am curious what we can do with that. because I don't know.
Chris: Interesting.
Brent: That just seems crazy and we should do it, you know, we should do the things that you don't have to.
Chris: So that is interesting.
Brent: Maybe we add that to the to-do list.
Chris: I want to just, I'm going to wrap up this with just an anecdote of,
Chris: I think these are more powerful than people realize.
Chris: I actually recently was using my Hermes agent in combination with a tool that
Chris: I think we should talk about in the future called Windows MCP.
Chris: And Windows MCP lets you completely remote control the Windows desktop.
Chris: I mean everything. Resize Windows, click a button, process management,
Chris: everything that you can do through the Windows desktop, you can basically do
Chris: through this Windows MCP.
Wes: So install Linux.
Chris: Well, so what I did is I had my Hermes agent reach in and control a dedicated
Chris: Windows laptop that I set up to run this tool called Forescan,
Chris: which reads proprietary forward air codes from cars.
Chris: And using this, I had the agent live troubleshooting the air codes that were coming in.
Chris: So I would do the button pressing. I'd push on the pedal. I'd turn the key.
Chris: And the agent would tell me when and then it would capture the data, show me the charts.
Chris: And we were able to prove that the computer was sending a signal that we weren't
Chris: sure it was being sent or not. And then we could see when the voltage hit and dropped.
Wes: That's so cool.
Chris: And this is just using a set of tools that I put together like voltmeters, the Windows MCP, 4Scan.
Chris: Oh, and then I obviously, probably worth mentioning, I had a USB to ODB2 dongle.
Chris: And I started looking into this. There are devices you can buy out there that
Chris: are native Linux devices that bring in ODB2 data right into your Linux box.
Chris: And there's pre-existing Python libraries that know how to read and interpret that data.
Brent: It is an unbelievable little world out there.
Chris: It's amazing where you could build a little diagnostic tool set where you hook
Chris: cars up to agents with voltmeters and ODB2 scanners.
Wes: And this is kind of really the test of the harness, right? Because this is the goal.
Wes: These things are more useful, the better you can enrich their context with all
Wes: of this useful information, and then now also have them have the right tools to interact with it.
Chris: And this was an example where the multi-chat system is useful.
Chris: And Hermes supports handoff.
Chris: It also supports a few other things like slash goal, which is becoming really
Chris: popular, but slash handoff is this neat idea because when you launch in the
Chris: TUI, you're generally in your own gateway session.
Chris: That's optional, but that's the default. But when you want to move to Telegram,
Chris: you can do a handoff to Telegram.
Chris: So I set it all up before I go out to the shop, do a handoff to Telegram.
Chris: Then when it's telling me, okay, press the accelerator, that stuff's coming
Chris: on Telegram because I'm out there, I'm in the shop, I'm on my phone.
Chris: And then when it's time to go figure out what to do with the data,
Chris: hand back to the TUI and get down to the research.
Chris: That research, by the way, that gets outsourced to my agent,
Chris: Dax, that goes out and actually does the research with all the APIs and skills
Chris: she has for research, while Laura and I continue to work on the data that we get back.
Chris: And then Dax comes back in another thread with her results.
Chris: And it's just, I don't think people are really fully grokking how far you can take this.
Chris: Like, right now, people are creating, like, fart apps. And, you know,
Chris: remember when iPhones first came out?
Wes: Yeah.
Chris: Everybody made, like, beer apps where you could, like, you drink the beer.
Chris: Like, that's the stage we're at right now with most AI-generated code.
Chris: But when you combine the features of these things with something like an agentic
Chris: harness that allows you to tie into different things like a Linux CLI and an
Chris: MCP, you start stacking some stuff and it starts getting really, really powerful.
Chris: And it feels like Hermes is probably the better platform to build that on,
Chris: for me at least, than OpenClaw.
Chris: At least that's kind of my take, right?
Chris: I just want to take a moment and thank our members. It's very light sponsorship this year.
Chris: We have Nebula, and that's it. So if it wasn't for Determinant Systems and the
Chris: members, we'd be cooked, as the kiddos say.
Chris: But the members, they keep us cooking, which is a good thing.
Chris: LinuxUnplugged.com slash membership or Jupiter.party if you want to support
Chris: all the shows. The high-level features are you keep us going.
Chris: Independent media is a pretty rare thing. The Linux magazines couldn't make it work.
Chris: We're trying to make it work in podcasting. you get an ad-free
Chris: version of the show or the bootleg version bootleg clock in an hour 31 right
Chris: now lots of content in there just a way that we can say thank you give you more
Chris: show as it were and uh you can support us by going to linuxunplugged.com membership
Chris: jupiter.party for that you set it on autopilot or send us a boost support each individual episode.
Brent: As always we've got a couple baller boosters this week and up first turd ferguson with 33,333 sats.
Brent: Did you guys see Greg KH call for more Rust kernel developers?
Brent: Have they built it, that Rust support and no one has come?
Brent: Seems like if it was popular, they'd have the opposite problem they have right now.
Chris: Well, speaking of agentic clipping, we have a clip of Greg KH talking about this from Rust Week.
Chris: I don't know how Greg gets out there. He's a busy guy. And Wes you collected
Chris: something like 15 clips from this yeah, and this happens to be relevant to turds question.
Clips: But we need your help,
Clips: We have a ton of work to do the rest for Linux team as a whole bunch of projects
Clips: They have a great their own,
Clips: Was it WebWord? It's not Zulip. Anyway, there's a good list.
Clips: They have a mailing list. There's a bunch of beginner stuff to get involved in.
Clips: A lot of fix-mes, a lot of stuff. They're doing a really, really good job.
Clips: I need your help. If you want to write some kernel code, please do this stuff. And this is good.
Chris: I don't get the sense that they're desperate for developers.
Chris: That wasn't the sense I got from that clip.
Chris: I got the sense they want more, like they've built it and they would like more to come.
Wes: And I think that in the leadership, there is a hope, right?
Wes: That Rust presents an opportunity to collect more young folk to continue the
Wes: project on and be the next generation of people who will work with it because
Wes: Rust is just a more modern,
Wes: friendly language, and you might use it working for a startup or a tech company
Wes: and then be able to port at least some of that knowledge over to work with the
Wes: kernel in a way that you're just not going to with C.
Chris: I do think it's notable, A, that Greg is being such an advocate for this,
Chris: and B, it's a pretty good presentation. It's technical, but it's a pretty good
Chris: presentation. He kind of just tries to de-escalate the fear around it all.
Wes: Yeah, and there's also good deets about, you know, like they've brought some of the improvements.
Wes: Like if you try to implement something like the Rust API way,
Wes: you can do a similar thing and see and get not the same exact benefits, right?
Wes: But you get safer code out of it, even if you don't get the compiler complaining
Wes: about you if you break it.
Wes: But it can be a good way to organize your thinking. So it's improving it even
Wes: in the parts that aren't Rust yet, which is kind of neat.
Chris: Great. Hybrid sarcasm comes in with 22,222 sats.
Chris: And it just says boost thank you hybrid appreciate the support this week we
Chris: need it boost received thank you very much your.
Wes: Inner child comes in with a row of ducks,
Wes: Not seen last week's baller boost on Fountain. What gives?
Wes: Do you prefer Peep's Watch on Yub Dub or Fountain?
Wes: What are the perks for joining the Jupiter Club for $15 a month?
Wes: And lastly, what would it take to get you guys to come to a show in St.
Wes: Louis in Vance Crow Studio?
Chris: God, I'd love to go to St. Louis. How do I get to these places?
Chris: That is something to crack.
Wes: That's a good question.
Chris: Let's take it in order.
Wes: Good question, Intertile.
Chris: I suppose we probably prefer you listen to it wherever you want,
Chris: really. I don't know if we have a strong preference.
Wes: Yeah, it kind of works what works for you.
Chris: Yeah. Really, that's why we put it as many places as we can.
Chris: I guess a tiny preference to a podcast app.
Wes: Yeah. If that's what gets you using a podcast app over just using YouTube, then do that.
Chris: Yeah, yeah.
Wes: But otherwise, use what you do.
Brent: Wes, it's Yubtub, I think.
Wes: My bad. My bad.
Chris: The Jupiter Party gets you the bootleg versions of all the shows.
Chris: Really, what we're trying to do there is we're just trying to make it feasible to stay independent.
Chris: And so we have a couple of value-for-value options, and that's just been a popularly
Chris: requested one because what we do is not particularly interesting to apparently
Chris: most of the rest of the tech world anymore.
Chris: They all care about AI and the LLM stuff and don't seem to realize it all runs on top of Linux.
Chris: Hello! We're still here, but thankfully the audience still cares.
Chris: And so there's not an audience of sponsors to really make a show for as much
Chris: these days, but there's still an audience of people that care.
Chris: And so it hasn't always worked, but we're giving it our best.
Chris: And so the Jupiter Party sort of finances, if you like multiple shows, there you go.
Chris: It's covering multiple shows where
Chris: we have just the membership for Linux Unplugged, if that's just your bag.
Chris: And lastly, yes, we would love to come to St. Louis. How we ever make that happen,
Chris: I don't know. Brent can't keep his van on the road.
Wes: Yeah, once we get that fixed, then maybe we need to figure out some sort of
Wes: race there, a reason to race.
Chris: Yeah, that'll get us going. That'll get us going. I like where your head's at.
Wes: My new souped-up van to compete against.
Chris: The West Wayne. West, West, West, we got to come up with something.
Chris: The pain. No, we got nothing. We got to get it. Like, bang bus.
Chris: Man, I think with that name, it just had to happen.
Brent: You know, I'm noticing Wes doesn't have a rig. So this might be the year of the Wes rig.
Chris: We need a name. If we had a great name for, like, a Wes something.
Wes: It's just that private train cars are very expensive.
Chris: Yeah, that would be. The pain train would be.
Brent: The pain train.
Brent: That's so perfect.
Chris: Could we get away with calling a van the pain train? because I feel like that would also...
Wes: We'll do like a train wrap.
Chris: Yeah, right, a train wrap, yeah.
Brent: Choo-choo. Well, the dude is abiding again this week with 19,000 sets.
Brent: Well, I wanted to note that I appreciate your takes on the latest AI news.
Brent: I deployed Hermes to a VM with my Proxmox node and started playing with it.
Brent: Currently using the OpenCodeGo subscription, I picked Quen 3.6+,
Brent: which was $5 for the first month just to get the hang of it.
Brent: I set it up with Telegram. It's kind of surreal to ask your bot questions and see the reply.
Brent: I'm curious, what models or subscriptions do you guys use?
Brent: And also how much, quote, power you give them to perform tasks on your behalf. Cheers.
Chris: I'll start. I'll start with the answer. I'll say this.
Chris: I have really liked Minimax. And so I broke down and I bought their yearly sub
Chris: while they had it on sale back in like April.
Chris: So I'm so maxed out on tokens. Like I have so many tokens through Minimax.
Chris: It's been wonderful not to worry about that.
Chris: And then I kind of use the Zen platform or open router as kind of like when
Chris: I need a hit of one of the larger models. And that's worked pretty well for me.
Chris: I do think that what I'm about to say is going to get me a little bit in trouble.
Chris: But I'm just going to admit to it,
Chris: I set them up on their own dedicated hardware for a reason. They have their
Chris: own dedicated OS with his own dedicated Git repo.
Chris: So I don't really see the point to restricting the crap out of them.
Chris: And I don't really give them access to public chats.
Chris: I don't really use, like, I don't just go spelunking through random emails with them.
Chris: So I'm the only person they really talk to except for me and the wife.
Chris: It seems like a pretty safe set. So I give them full YOLO mode,
Chris: which I constantly have to argue with them about because all of these things
Chris: want to be excessively safe by default.
Chris: All these people that are worried, like, trust me, they're obnoxiously safe.
Chris: They're obnoxiously safe. And, like, I have to constantly explain to them this
Chris: is dedicated hardware. This is a purpose-built install.
Chris: The entire reason is, like, this thing is supposed to manage this entire box. And I do.
Chris: I want them to manage the entire box. I want them to update the services, update the OS, all of it.
Chris: Install new stuff all of it so if there's a YOLO mode I'm using it for the most
Chris: case on my Hermes system I sometimes go a little more careful um if I'm say
Chris: on an Ubuntu box or Fedora box or a Mac which I haven't really done but I would be a lot more.
Brent: Careful like any box that doesn't have roll back by default.
Chris: Basically yeah or declarative configuration that would break obviously like
Chris: that's there because Nix OS has
Chris: those breaks in there I get to be a little bit more YOLO on the AI side.
Chris: But if I'm using, I have seen it go sideways on an Ubuntu box specifically.
Chris: You've got to be careful there and stuff like,
Chris: But I go full blast. If there's a dash dash YOLO, I'm doing it. What about you, Wes?
Wes: Yeah, I mean, I think it kind of depends on, I agree, I also am running it on its own VM.
Wes: So it has root in its own box. That part I don't mind.
Wes: I think it just kind of depends on what tools you connect it to, right?
Wes: Like what passwords are, what keys does it have for what things,
Wes: what MCP tools do you connect in?
Chris: I also think this is an argument why MCPs are still valid in the age of OpenClaw
Chris: and these agents is because MCPs give you a place to kind of have control over what the agent can do.
Chris: And that seems like the proper place to bake that in because that's going to
Chris: be more agent agnostic and more setup agnostic and system agnostic.
Chris: So I still think MCPs play a real good role here in controlling what the agent
Chris: actually can and can't do.
Wes: If the only way it can talk to X thing over here is it has to take a snapshot
Wes: first and then do the change and that's just sort of baked into the command
Wes: or it only has read-only access, then you just kind of have a limit on what
Wes: it can possibly screw up.
Chris: And this is also where, if you do want to go the CLI route for some of these
Chris: tools, you know, it's not a lot of work to just have the agent create a safe
Chris: wrapper where it does things read only by default. And so it isn't calling the actual CLI tool.
Chris: It's calling a wrapper that calls the tool. And that wrapper has some safeties built into it.
Wes: Of course, NixOS makes that very easy, but you can do that on any system.
Chris: Yes, yes. So that's just another way where, so it's not like I'm just totally
Chris: crazy with it, But with these different pieces combined, I am able to have the
Chris: agent have complete control over the infrastructure.
Chris: But you do have to be careful when it comes to a security standpoint and all
Chris: of that. You want to make sure that things lock down and not hanging out in
Chris: like public chats and things like that.
Wes: And there's a lot of different ways to rig it. So it kind of depends on your
Wes: own how you like to run things, right?
Wes: Like it can just be a thing that lives in your sort of CI automation pipelines
Wes: or it can be a personal assistant that's talking to you on Telegram or anything in between.
Chris: And by default, the way Hermes came out of the box was it was,
Chris: you know, for stuff that was going to need a CLI system command,
Chris: it's just going to ask me. And I could do allow once, allow always.
Chris: You know, so for the first 30 or 40 times I do some, you know,
Chris: whatever, it's going to ask me and I'll just say allow a bunch of times.
Chris: And it would, in theory, eventually build out a whitelist that it's allowed
Chris: to do and it would be fine.
Wes: It also, it's just, it's funny how much of this stuff, like a lot of the open
Wes: source and sort of infrastructure is code.
Wes: And just a lot of the principles that folks in our space talk about really do pay dividends.
Wes: And another of those is like, if you have a nice mesh network setup,
Wes: then it's another way, right?
Wes: Like you can kind of have, give it its own identity on the mesh and then use
Wes: sort of the mesh firewalls or other firewall systems and ACLs.
Wes: To control what it has access to that way, too.
Chris: And I have to say Nebula is so good for this because the agents can stand up
Chris: the entire Nebula network on their own.
Chris: If you have the magic of SSH, just the agents will stand up the entire network.
Chris: And there's no API key you have to go beg for. There's no Google sign-in you have to do.
Chris: From zero, from prompt, they can stand up a secure mesh network without any
Chris: other company's permission or involvement.
Chris: It's so effing powerful.
Chris: This is so, I'm using this for my home assistants that are on separate networks,
Chris: but I want to have a, when you have three different home assistants,
Chris: you inevitably want one dashboard, right?
Chris: You want to be able to control all of the different stuff from one screen,
Chris: because one's for the chicken coop, one's for the RV, and one's for the studio,
Chris: right? I'm not some crazy baller, it's just I got chickens.
Chris: Now I got three of these things, and I want one dashboard with the buttons for
Chris: the lights and the crap and the stuff that I do all the time.
Chris: I don't want to have to load up three different home assistance systems. Well, guess what?
Chris: They're all on three different networks, but Nebula, boop, boop,
Chris: boop, boop, ties it all together so simply, builds it out so quick.
Chris: It's really great. Anyways, it's just...
Chris: I think there's so much advantage if you can build the right harness and apparatus
Chris: around it so you can give them some power.
Chris: What they can do for you is save you a crap ton of time.
Chris: And it lets me enjoy infrastructure and free software projects that I was starting to run out of time for.
Chris: You know, just as my kids have gotten older, life off air has gotten busier
Chris: and busier. And some of the cool stuff I was able to build on and do before I don't have time for.
Chris: But I can keep up. I can keep them managed. I can keep them secure.
Chris: They're not going to sit there and rot and just, you know, like one of the biggest
Chris: issues with home labs is they can just sit there and kind of just fall apart
Chris: and have issues and get out of date and things break over time and your backups
Chris: fail and it can just become a huge source of stress.
Chris: Like these agents, they're, man, they're keeping on top of it.
Chris: They're telling me when my freaking NVMe hard drive temperatures are too high
Chris: in one particular rig and when this backup failed and all of it. It's so powerful.
Chris: So it's worth giving them the leash, but just be careful.
Chris: All right. I know. I know. I went on for too long. But I think it's pretty exciting.
Chris: And also, we don't have a lot of boosts. That's it. Thank you,
Chris: everybody who streams that.
Brent: I want to pull one forward, actually.
Chris: Oh, yeah, do it. If you don't mind. Let's do it.
Brent: There's one here sticking out to me. Rubik Man boosted in 1,488 sats. Thank you.
Chris: Mm-hmm.
Brent: And it says, I'm confused. Are you pronouncing jif or gif like Jeff or geoff?
Brent: What's with that?
Chris: What's confusing it's an animated
Chris: Jeff everybody knows that yeah I thought we settled this years ago.
Brent: There's an episode somewhere that goes into detail about this I don't remember
Brent: which you'll have to listen to the.
Chris: Back catalog.
Brent: But thanks Jeff.
Chris: It depends on the program you use to save it.
Wes: That's true yeah some prefer the.
Chris: Yeah thank you to our SAT streamers came in with 18 of you stacking 21,017 SATs,
Chris: Not too bad. Not too bad at all. Thank you very much. When you combine that
Chris: with our boosters who boosted last week's episode and a couple of you that came
Chris: in at the last minute today, we squeaked just over 100,000 sats.
Chris: Not a big banger, but I'm still pretty happy. 101,023 sats.
Chris: We definitely could definitely use to see the support pickup just because the
Chris: sponsorships are so low.
Chris: So this is part of what is keeping the show going. And you can boost with something
Chris: like Fountain FM. If you're on iOS, you should definitely check out Cast-O-Matic.
Chris: And AlbiHub just keeps going from strength to strength. I just updated the latest AlbiHub.
Chris: It's so impressive. And then you can connect to a whole plethora of apps.
Chris: Get started at newpodcastapps.com.
Chris: And thank you, everybody, who boosted episode 668. We really do appreciate you.
Chris: I'm going to start with a pick this week. I have a soft spot for a program back
Chris: in the day called Norton Commander.
Chris: Before we'd really settled on the Windows 3 desktop and the macOS desktop paradigm,
Chris: there were people that were trying to make file managers and graphical interfaces for DOS.
Chris: Like maybe the OG2E, if you will. And GNOME Commander is a Norton Commander-inspired file manager.
Chris: It was written in C++. It's recently been rewritten largely in Rust as they
Chris: moved over to GTK4. I know. Surprise, surprise.
Chris: Is gnome commander 2.0 also adds embedded terminal
Chris: to display output which is nice that is nice improvements in the search dialogue
Chris: the internal viewer has been improved accessibility has seen some improvements
Chris: keyboard shortcuts dialogue is there now and you're gonna like this one brent
Chris: more tab states are restored on restart so now you can over tab on your file manager.
Brent: So it's not.
Wes: All though it's just.
Brent: More yeah yeah i need them all chris.
Chris: Well i mean there are limits you know
Chris: there are limits why this thing still looks like a classic app
Chris: he sure does you know it reminds me also of midnight commander it's two panes
Chris: i just love it you know when you can have one pain have two as they say so no
Chris: go commander is a twin panel graphical fire manager and um gpl3 so that's that
Chris: I just had to start with that because of the nostalgia. I like the feels.
Wes: Well, while you're pretending that the terminal doesn't exist with your graphical thing over here.
Chris: As I do.
Wes: I brought the graphics to the terminal.
Chris: Oh.
Wes: Yeah.
Chris: Oh.
Wes: Yeah, try out Halo.
Chris: Flipping the script on us here, Wes.
Wes: Terminal flow field screensaver with Perlin noise, braille rendering particles,
Wes: and 24-bit handsy color.
Chris: Oh, you had me at screensaver.
Wes: Yeah, here's your TUI screensaver.
Chris: I have a real soft spot for screensavers. I was big into the X11 screensavers
Chris: back when they were around on the proprietary platforms. I loved After Dark.
Chris: I just love screensavers. And we've moved away from them.
Wes: Yeah, it's already got a couple different preset themes in there, right? So you got that.
Chris: Ironically, when we had these big old boob tube CRTs that were probably burning
Chris: 200 watts constantly, we left them running all the time with screensavers.
Wes: Yes, we did.
Chris: Now we get these LCD screens that pull five watts, then we turn them off all the time.
Wes: Well, we have live terminal resize handling. And, yes, don't worry.
Wes: We have native Windows terminal support.
Chris: Yeah. They do recommend you use Kitty or Ghost DTY or iTerm if you're on the
Chris: Mac or something that's got, you know, lack of a...
Wes: You do want, like, a nice, yeah, graphics-y terminal.
Chris: You know where this would be great is if anybody out there has a screen in the
Chris: background of your, like, Zoom work calls. If you're like a work from home,
Chris: you combine this with Hollywood behind you, you're going to look,
Chris: yeah. You know what, Brent?
Brent: I have a blank one behind me that seems just perfect with this.
Brent: That thing is the very first monitor I ever got. It's like almost square.
Brent: It's terrible for anything but exactly this. So thank you, Wes.
Chris: You guys remember the Hollywood package too.
Wes: Right?
Brent: Oh, of course. Oh, yeah.
Chris: Oh, good one. Go look that up out there. I know there's a Snap available, but still.
Brent: I have a question on this one.
Chris: I think there's other packages too. Yeah.
Brent: Where's Halo? How did you find something like this? Because this project is three days old.
Chris: How did you find this? Were you trolling somewhere?
Wes: Can I see? This is just in console.
Chris: I do like it a lot. Here, hold that. Can I see it? Hold that up again.
Chris: So it's like worms going across the screen, kind of.
Wes: Mm-hmm.
Chris: All right. All right. That's neat.
Wes: You can run it with just a UVX if you want.
Chris: How the heck did you find it? I mean...
Wes: Trolling GitHub.
Chris: Oh, yeah. He does that. I've been noticing...
Wes: You see, the trick is you follow people who write cool stuff.
Chris: Yeah, you've been...
Wes: And then you hope that they write more cool stuff.
Chris: He's been upping his links with this.
Brent: It's like...
Chris: Your linkage is going up. I get a report from the agent, and I can see the uptick
Chris: in the linkage because you found a good vein of stuff recently.
Brent: You know, that's the difference between Wes and I. I don't think to use GitHub
Brent: as a social media platform.
Chris: He's kind of using it as a data source, too. You should just watch it.
Wes: It'd be nice to automate it more.
Chris: Yeah, you never know. You never know. All right, we will put links to Halo and,
Chris: of course, to GNOME Commander,
Chris: in the show notes over at linuxunplugged.com slash 668 or check out jupyterbroadcasting.com
Chris: where you got Linux Unplugged and the launch and This Week in Bitcoin.
Chris: And you can always call the launch as well.
Chris: Call us and chat with us. It's kind of fun. Anything else we should cover before we run, boys?
Chris: No although just a reminder we want uh people's bitwarden
Chris: password migration stories or what you're using in place of
Chris: bitwarden and does it sync because that's what
Chris: got me that's what effing got me is i just i'm so frustrated because it got
Chris: me and i knew this i knew this was going to happen i had a whole plant for platform
Chris: rant i was going to get into we're running out of time uh they got me and i
Chris: knew it was going to go this way and i they got me for the sync because i just
Chris: want bulletproof never think about it I save.
Wes: My password I have it elsewhere.
Chris: And I want it to work but also the mobile has to be like first class because
Chris: if I create an account on the mob's I gotta capture the mob so I can log in
Chris: on the desktops later it's gotta work,
Chris: help us people and then maybe we can come up with a solid solution that everybody
Chris: trusts in our community it's something we can recommend to the wider audience so I will also say maybe.
Wes: Consider boosting in if you have experience with making a Linux router.
Chris: Oh, that was a request that we still need more input on. Let me tell you what.
Chris: Let me tell you what. All right, Wes Pano, is there anything else we should
Chris: let people know about this here podcast? Like maybe extra metadata around the
Chris: show, something like that. You got anything?
Wes: Yeah. Well, you know, we make the bots work hard to produce diarized transcripts
Wes: so you can have as much possible metadata about exactly what we said with the
Wes: addition of some comic slop misspellings occasionally.
Chris: Also we've got json chapters as well as those are.
Wes: Entirely handcrafted by editor drew.
Chris: That's right as well as chapters we try to embed into the id3 file so whichever
Chris: works best for you we try to make it available and of course we are live you know that.
Chris: Yeah, that's right. We make it a Tuesday on a Sunday at 10 a.m.
Chris: Pacific, 1 p.m. Eastern over at jblive.tv and jblive.fm.
Chris: Also sometimes up there on the tubes. And of course, we record all of it and
Chris: more for our members, for our Jupiter Party and our Unplugged core.
Chris: Thank you, everybody, for tuning in. Go check out the Unplugged.com website,
Chris: linuxunplugged.com, for past
Chris: episodes, this episode, and links to everything we talked about as well.
Chris: Subscribe links, our mumble room, our chat room. there's a lot going on around
Chris: this show that doesn't make it on air every single week but you'll find links
Chris: to it over at linuxunplugged.com thanks so much for joining us on this week's
Chris: episode of your Unplugged program and we're going to see you right back here
Chris: as in Tuesday and you know what that means we'll see you back here next Sunday.
Brent: Okay, I have a request. You mentioned you didn't have time in the show for your
Brent: rant, but you have plenty of time here.