WEBVTT 00:00:11.189 --> 00:00:15.849 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:16.009 --> 00:00:16.689 My name is Wes. 00:00:16.949 --> 00:00:17.769 And my name is Brent. 00:00:18.849 --> 00:00:23.089 Hello, gentlemen. Well, coming up on the show, we've each prepared a topic, 00:00:23.109 --> 00:00:25.509 but we haven't told the other one what it's about. 00:00:25.509 --> 00:00:28.269 So I have no idea what the other guys want to talk about this week, 00:00:28.269 --> 00:00:31.229 and then we'll round out the show with some great boosts, some picks, 00:00:31.369 --> 00:00:34.089 and a lot more. And I know what I'm going to talk about. 00:00:34.229 --> 00:00:37.349 But before we get there, I know we've got to say time-appropriate greetings 00:00:37.349 --> 00:00:39.229 to our virtual lug. Hello, Mama Room. 00:00:39.609 --> 00:00:42.569 Hello. Hello. Hey, Chris. Hey, Wes. And hello, Brent. 00:00:42.929 --> 00:00:46.869 Hello. And hello up there in the old quiet listening. And a shout out to the 00:00:46.869 --> 00:00:48.509 live stream and our members. 00:00:48.669 --> 00:00:52.269 We've been cooking now for about 40 minutes or so. So it's nice to be here on 00:00:52.269 --> 00:00:54.989 a Sunday morning doing the Unplugged program on a Tuesday. 00:00:55.189 --> 00:00:59.229 And let's say a big good morning to our friends over at Defined Networking. 00:00:59.389 --> 00:01:02.349 Go check out Manage Nebula from Defined Networking. 00:01:02.549 --> 00:01:06.289 It's built on the open source Nebula platform that we trust and love. 00:01:06.929 --> 00:01:11.409 And you control all the bits. It's so simple to scale. 00:01:11.529 --> 00:01:15.689 You can get started easily at define.net slash unplugged. You can try out their hosted version. 00:01:16.069 --> 00:01:20.389 Use it on 100 hosts absolutely for free. And it turns out you control the infrastructure. 00:01:20.429 --> 00:01:23.449 You can build it yourself if you just want to have two nodes talking to each 00:01:23.449 --> 00:01:25.669 other for a backup, which can be very handy. 00:01:25.889 --> 00:01:30.869 Or if you need something, the scale of an enterprise system like Slack or something even larger. 00:01:31.049 --> 00:01:34.089 You can run your own lighthouses. You can own the network path and you can avoid 00:01:34.089 --> 00:01:39.649 building your core connectivity, your infrastructure, your network around somebody 00:01:39.649 --> 00:01:41.949 else's black box. It's fast. It's secure. It's decentralized. 00:01:42.209 --> 00:01:48.169 It's reliable. It's the way most mesh VPNs wish they were, but just they're not designed to be. 00:01:48.329 --> 00:01:50.969 For your home lab, for a fleet or for serious production network, 00:01:51.189 --> 00:01:53.509 Managed Nebula gives you control without giving up convenience. 00:01:53.749 --> 00:01:57.769 Try it out. Defined.net slash unplugged and redefined your VPN experience. 00:01:58.009 --> 00:02:01.449 That is Defined.net slash unplugged. You're going to be impressed. 00:02:04.153 --> 00:02:09.353 So there seems to be a bit of concern over things going on over at Bitwarden. 00:02:09.553 --> 00:02:15.273 And I'm not sure. There's been a leadership shift, some premium price increases, 00:02:15.873 --> 00:02:20.353 some statements about their public mission and community have changed and been changed again. 00:02:20.953 --> 00:02:26.533 And so I just thought we'd discuss this for a moment because I've ended up over 00:02:26.533 --> 00:02:29.053 the years falling back on Bitwarden. Do you still use Bitwarden? 00:02:29.073 --> 00:02:29.313 I do. 00:02:29.893 --> 00:02:31.893 I know, Brent, you never fall down into Bitwarden. 00:02:32.533 --> 00:02:33.493 I've been hesitant. 00:02:33.493 --> 00:02:37.953 Yeah, well, perhaps for good reason. Their new CEO did have a response post 00:02:37.953 --> 00:02:41.753 my first 100 days of Bitwarden where he did say open source is still the foundation 00:02:41.753 --> 00:02:44.093 of everything at Bitwarden. 00:02:44.553 --> 00:02:47.833 But I'm just kind of curious if people are starting to create a Bitwarden backup plan. 00:02:48.573 --> 00:02:52.033 And I'd like to poll the audience. What password manager are you using? 00:02:52.253 --> 00:02:55.653 And does it sync across your devices? And did you move off of Bitwarden? 00:02:55.653 --> 00:03:01.213 Did you move to another hosted service? Did you move to something totally self-hosted, 00:03:01.313 --> 00:03:02.513 Vault Warden, et cetera? 00:03:02.893 --> 00:03:03.073 Yeah. 00:03:03.373 --> 00:03:05.253 Or do you sync around a key pass file, Brent style? 00:03:05.433 --> 00:03:09.073 And I wonder if we can, you know, I mean, I think there's room here for us to 00:03:09.073 --> 00:03:13.213 kind of take what the audience says, review it, come together with what we kind 00:03:13.213 --> 00:03:16.813 of come up with, and maybe create a Bitwarden migration guide because it's something 00:03:16.813 --> 00:03:17.833 you and I might want to consider. 00:03:18.013 --> 00:03:21.213 I know I have seen a few number of folks trying out the Proton password manager. 00:03:21.533 --> 00:03:23.473 Maybe if the audience members have any experience there too. 00:03:23.473 --> 00:03:25.653 And I know the 2FA folks also make a password manager. 00:03:25.653 --> 00:03:26.633 Oh, interesting. 00:03:27.493 --> 00:03:30.893 There's a few options out there these days, key paths and others. So BoostIn... 00:03:32.300 --> 00:03:34.000 Or go to linuxunplugged.com slash 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:38.040 contact and let us know. We're trying to figure out what to do over here. 00:03:38.300 --> 00:03:40.400 Just don't boost us your passwords. That doesn't work. 00:03:42.700 --> 00:03:46.420 All right. So let's get into it, boys, because we've got three topics. 00:03:46.760 --> 00:03:50.860 I have no idea what they're about. So I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the 00:03:50.860 --> 00:03:55.640 ride, I suppose, because I'm going to go last. That way I get the full effect. 00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:00.860 You're assuming that ours don't involve quizzes for you or any sort of work on your part? 00:04:01.060 --> 00:04:06.000 I hope not. But I've gotten the basic gist that we're going to have a little 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:11.000 Bose with Brent here, that he has been working with Bose smart speakers to some degree. 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:14.180 But that's all I really know, Brent. So bring us up to speed, as they say. 00:04:14.740 --> 00:04:21.040 Well, I've been hanging out with my parents lots lately, and they're just as big music folks as I am. 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:27.200 So they have, years and years and years and years ago, they bought a Bose SoundTouch 00:04:27.200 --> 00:04:33.100 30, which I guess, I looked it up, I can't believe this, was available from 2013 to 2014. 00:04:33.340 --> 00:04:37.360 So only for a year somehow. But they're around. I've seen them around quite a bit. 00:04:37.840 --> 00:04:41.320 And they use this thing daily. They're just always music playing off this thing. 00:04:41.440 --> 00:04:45.560 And it's the kind of speaker where you can have little presets. 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:49.080 And they're not super technical, but they have buttons on the top. 00:04:49.080 --> 00:04:51.880 They can go, hey, I want CBC in the morning or whatever. 00:04:52.620 --> 00:04:55.100 Oh, yeah, you might not understand you're in a different country. 00:04:55.460 --> 00:04:58.680 But so they've used the heck out of this thing. It's been a great speaker. 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:01.460 Sounds great. It's not too huge. And like, it just works. 00:05:02.340 --> 00:05:08.060 Except Bose announced a few months ago that they would stop supporting this speaker. 00:05:08.180 --> 00:05:12.800 And what that means is that any of the presets you had or any of the streaming 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:15.560 you were using on this speaker would just stop working one day. 00:05:16.340 --> 00:05:19.640 And that day happened just a couple of weeks ago, the 5th of May. 00:05:20.896 --> 00:05:25.916 And I have not seen my parents that angry in a while about a product that they 00:05:25.916 --> 00:05:29.816 purchased because it's a thing that's worked forever. 00:05:30.256 --> 00:05:33.356 They never had to, you know, they set it up once and it just kind of worked. 00:05:34.016 --> 00:05:37.936 And all of a sudden one day they went to do their morning routine of putting 00:05:37.936 --> 00:05:39.516 the radio on and it doesn't work at all. 00:05:39.756 --> 00:05:42.356 And they can't do anything about it. They don't understand why. 00:05:42.596 --> 00:05:46.896 They never got any, you know, an email or whatever saying that they're so. 00:05:47.036 --> 00:05:49.436 But we've seen this happen over and over and over. 00:05:49.636 --> 00:05:49.776 Yeah. 00:05:49.776 --> 00:05:50.576 It 00:05:50.576 --> 00:05:53.996 Reminds me of the first time meme oh your first time huh. 00:05:53.996 --> 00:05:56.936 Ah well some of us have been there before 00:05:56.936 --> 00:05:59.996 so when they bought this thing way back then 00:05:59.996 --> 00:06:02.836 this is the exact reaction i had was like oh it 00:06:02.836 --> 00:06:07.196 it seems great now but we you know been talking about this kind of thing happening 00:06:07.196 --> 00:06:12.416 for the last 10 years at least so i thought i might try to help them with this 00:06:12.416 --> 00:06:17.476 thing because like now it was just basically mostly a brick as far as streaming 00:06:17.476 --> 00:06:20.216 anything goes but you could still use it for Bluetooth, 00:06:20.656 --> 00:06:23.096 which is the main way I was using it when they weren't around. 00:06:24.436 --> 00:06:27.976 And like an AUX connection, but that's never how they were using it. 00:06:28.156 --> 00:06:32.236 So I did a little spelunking around our dear open source communities. 00:06:32.236 --> 00:06:36.396 And it turns out I'm not the only one who wants to solve this. 00:06:36.536 --> 00:06:43.436 And a lot of people have been working quite a bit on this since that announcement, because, 00:06:44.212 --> 00:06:47.792 When Bose announced that they were going to stop supporting this thing, 00:06:47.952 --> 00:06:50.092 there was a massive upheaval. 00:06:50.292 --> 00:06:56.212 And they decided to open source some of the APIs for this speaker, 00:06:56.412 --> 00:06:58.492 or this series of speakers at least. 00:06:58.712 --> 00:07:04.192 And that just has enabled the community to go nuts and make all these tools 00:07:04.192 --> 00:07:07.332 to bring back the functionality to these speakers. 00:07:07.332 --> 00:07:12.992 So from what i've seen the idea is to just make them as useful as they were 00:07:12.992 --> 00:07:19.092 previous and not need bows in the middle which maybe arguably should have been 00:07:19.092 --> 00:07:20.792 how it was designed in the first place. 00:07:21.612 --> 00:07:25.012 But we're here now and luckily this thing's 00:07:25.012 --> 00:07:27.832 not trash because these projects are well along even in 00:07:27.832 --> 00:07:31.032 a couple months and i decided to 00:07:31.032 --> 00:07:33.972 implement this thing maybe i can just rescue my 00:07:33.972 --> 00:07:37.572 parents mornings with music and i 00:07:37.572 --> 00:07:40.372 decided uh to look at how 00:07:40.372 --> 00:07:44.912 to accomplish this because i was like i don't know maybe we can use home assistant 00:07:44.912 --> 00:07:50.032 like an integration or something that can stream music to this thing that's 00:07:50.032 --> 00:07:54.732 always an option uh but it turned out that well of course this thing just runs 00:07:54.732 --> 00:08:00.312 linux right and oh no kidding of course it does and so there are. 00:08:01.416 --> 00:08:02.776 It's got a whole OS on there. 00:08:02.796 --> 00:08:06.776 Maybe questionable design decisions. Like, for instance, they just have Telnet 00:08:06.776 --> 00:08:08.256 access open constantly. 00:08:08.696 --> 00:08:10.796 No authentication needed or anything. 00:08:11.996 --> 00:08:12.756 Yes, good. 00:08:12.836 --> 00:08:15.356 And then the method I used. I mean, that's good for you. Yeah, 00:08:15.396 --> 00:08:19.116 the method I used to get into it is, I was like, well, I'm not that familiar 00:08:19.116 --> 00:08:20.576 with Telnet. I want to use SSH. 00:08:20.896 --> 00:08:25.316 Turns out you could just put an empty file named, you know, remote underscore 00:08:25.316 --> 00:08:27.176 services onto a USB drive. 00:08:27.696 --> 00:08:31.256 Plug that in the back of the thing because it has USB, which I don't know if it should. 00:08:31.876 --> 00:08:36.036 And then it just enables root access to this box. 00:08:36.256 --> 00:08:36.416 Love that. 00:08:36.616 --> 00:08:38.236 With no password or anything. 00:08:38.756 --> 00:08:39.356 Yes. 00:08:39.356 --> 00:08:42.256 So with no password or anything, you just SSH to this thing. 00:08:42.596 --> 00:08:43.636 What could go wrong? 00:08:44.656 --> 00:08:49.556 Questionable, maybe security practices, but it's a benefit for us because this 00:08:49.556 --> 00:08:51.016 thing is super easy to get into. 00:08:52.016 --> 00:08:58.716 I decided to, well, there's a variety of projects that are solving this in interesting ways. 00:08:58.716 --> 00:09:01.456 Like more than one addressing this particular? 00:09:01.856 --> 00:09:02.396 Yeah. 00:09:02.716 --> 00:09:03.516 Like, wow. 00:09:03.856 --> 00:09:07.836 There are various approaches, I guess you could say. 00:09:08.236 --> 00:09:12.776 The one I leaned on after doing quite a bit of research is called Aftertouch, 00:09:13.056 --> 00:09:17.076 which is, you know, sound touch after they canceled this out. 00:09:17.076 --> 00:09:22.636 Anyways, and it is quite complete in the sense that it has excellent documentation 00:09:22.636 --> 00:09:30.336 and allows various options for how to get into the speaker and change basically 00:09:30.336 --> 00:09:35.716 some settings in a variety of ways so that you can host the streaming yourself. 00:09:35.936 --> 00:09:40.376 So instead of Bose being like the person in the middle that sends the streaming 00:09:40.376 --> 00:09:45.116 services to the speaker, you just have either a NAS or a Raspberry Pi. 00:09:45.816 --> 00:09:48.756 You could even use a VPS because they have some... 00:09:50.505 --> 00:09:53.765 Like tls certificates that uh are work 00:09:53.765 --> 00:09:58.345 wonderfully with this thing but the other thing is you could just run this software 00:09:58.345 --> 00:10:04.345 on the speaker itself as well because it's just linux so it can just be standalone 00:10:04.345 --> 00:10:12.005 which is which is amazing i thought it was really well designed because um aftertouch, 00:10:13.285 --> 00:10:20.525 offers a lot of options for how to install this in a variety of places so they have a docker setup, 00:10:21.185 --> 00:10:25.165 also just a native systemd setup that, of course, is the way I went with NixOS. 00:10:26.005 --> 00:10:30.025 But they also have a pi quick installer. So if you have a pi going already, 00:10:30.145 --> 00:10:34.425 you just run one command and it sets everything up for you, which is pretty sweet, I have to say. 00:10:36.216 --> 00:10:42.696 So one of the methods to solve this is to do just a DNS redirect for the BOSE domains. 00:10:44.136 --> 00:10:47.356 That's one of the simpler ways to do it, let's say. 00:10:48.056 --> 00:10:50.616 Because it's still reaching out to their servers? 00:10:50.876 --> 00:10:55.176 Yeah, there's like, I think, three of their servers is constantly reaching out 00:10:55.176 --> 00:10:59.156 to to try to gain information about which streams are available. 00:10:59.516 --> 00:11:01.416 Etc. And then they just shut down the servers on their end. 00:11:01.456 --> 00:11:02.876 Yeah, they just said, well, we don't really want to run this. 00:11:02.876 --> 00:11:05.376 But they left it just sitting there blasting your network. I mean, 00:11:05.416 --> 00:11:06.436 I know it's not a lot of traffic. 00:11:06.516 --> 00:11:07.936 But just the principle of it. I know. 00:11:08.096 --> 00:11:08.516 The principle of it. 00:11:08.516 --> 00:11:08.776 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:10.116 --> 00:11:13.176 Interesting. So you intercept that basically by screwing with the DNS. 00:11:13.356 --> 00:11:15.976 Exactly. And you can do that a variety of ways, right? You could just do it 00:11:15.976 --> 00:11:17.256 on your router or whatever you want. 00:11:17.756 --> 00:11:22.496 But it has to point to something. So you want to run aftertouch somewhere. 00:11:22.796 --> 00:11:25.896 So I decided to run on the little NAS that I have behind me. 00:11:26.936 --> 00:11:30.636 And that was a wonderful way to do it. But I didn't intercept the DNS. 00:11:30.636 --> 00:11:37.396 What I did instead, as the project suggests, is because this thing just has open root, 00:11:37.616 --> 00:11:42.976 once you plug in a simple little USB drive, you can go in and just change the 00:11:42.976 --> 00:11:46.336 DNS entries and point them to where you need them. 00:11:46.476 --> 00:11:50.896 So you don't even need to intercept them. You just tell the speaker, go look here instead. 00:11:52.076 --> 00:11:59.076 And AfterTouch supplies basically a couple things. So one thing is you can use 00:11:59.076 --> 00:12:02.836 a web UI to do all of the migration of the speaker. 00:12:02.956 --> 00:12:07.056 So as long as you have the service running and the speakers on the same network, 00:12:07.236 --> 00:12:08.576 it'll just auto detect the speaker. 00:12:08.776 --> 00:12:13.316 And then there's a big migrate button and that'll change all of the entries 00:12:13.316 --> 00:12:16.616 for you, which is awesome and makes it super, super simple. 00:12:17.356 --> 00:12:22.336 So there's that part. And then it also provides a bunch of access to streams 00:12:22.336 --> 00:12:27.356 and stuff. So you get the exact same functionality, and you don't need Bose at all. 00:12:27.596 --> 00:12:30.936 I kind of wish this was available a long, long time ago. Like, 00:12:31.016 --> 00:12:34.816 they should just open source this stuff from the start. It's going to happen anyways. 00:12:35.256 --> 00:12:37.536 It almost makes a guy want to go on eBay and pick one up. 00:12:37.616 --> 00:12:40.256 Well, that's what I've been thinking about is... 00:12:41.042 --> 00:12:48.202 We're lucky because we have the know-how to do this. And it was relatively simple for people like us. 00:12:48.882 --> 00:12:51.642 But my parents would have never, ever done this. So, like, give it a couple 00:12:51.642 --> 00:12:55.042 more weeks, they would have chucked this thing or, you know, 00:12:55.242 --> 00:12:58.382 that's the danger is like they're perfectly usable speakers. 00:12:58.642 --> 00:12:59.682 But how many people are just going to? 00:13:00.981 --> 00:13:04.921 Not only are they usable still, but they like the sound. And it's not necessarily 00:13:04.921 --> 00:13:07.021 going to happen for, you know, they replace that with something else. 00:13:07.021 --> 00:13:07.981 They might not like the sound. 00:13:08.161 --> 00:13:10.921 It's got, those speakers have a unique sound to them and people enjoy it. 00:13:11.301 --> 00:13:16.301 I, uh, sneaky turn down the bass like to negative five because it has that setting 00:13:16.301 --> 00:13:18.581 too. And I, they're so bassy. I don't like it anyway. 00:13:18.821 --> 00:13:19.981 Yeah, they are. They're very bass heavy. Yeah. 00:13:20.161 --> 00:13:23.781 So, so it's pretty sweet. Um, now the UI has a bunch of information, 00:13:24.281 --> 00:13:26.161 a bunch of technical information, which I like. 00:13:26.161 --> 00:13:29.201 But also from the perspective of let's say my parents, 00:13:29.761 --> 00:13:33.461 they just get to use it so I was able to reprogram all their touch buttons as 00:13:33.461 --> 00:13:37.721 well to what they had before and they're not even going to know that it's doing anything different, 00:13:38.221 --> 00:13:43.861 but I know that it is because now it's all completely local and I can run the 00:13:43.861 --> 00:13:49.101 server myself and I am highly considering just running that service on the speaker 00:13:49.101 --> 00:13:51.921 itself because I have another box to do it, right? 00:13:52.561 --> 00:13:55.761 And so that's the little project I've been working on this week trying to solve 00:13:55.761 --> 00:13:59.021 that That is neat. I would say, job's finished. 00:13:59.921 --> 00:14:04.021 It's, job's finished. It's kind of remarkable, the community. So you have Aftertouch. 00:14:04.661 --> 00:14:09.601 Obviously, there's SoundCork and there's others. They've really taken advantage 00:14:09.601 --> 00:14:10.681 of what's available here. 00:14:10.841 --> 00:14:13.621 Did you get a sense, like, okay, so obviously there's this model, 00:14:13.721 --> 00:14:18.221 but, like, how many models are supported by these various efforts? How new can you go? 00:14:18.561 --> 00:14:20.581 Like, what does this open up? 00:14:20.661 --> 00:14:24.301 I think a lot of these sprung up around the SoundTouch models specifically, 00:14:24.301 --> 00:14:26.581 which have a lot of similar architecture. 00:14:27.701 --> 00:14:31.861 I'm not aware of all of the models, but there's like a SoundTouch 10, 00:14:32.081 --> 00:14:34.321 which I think is a smaller version of this. 00:14:34.621 --> 00:14:38.641 And this thing is a 30, which is probably the size of like a tiny suitcase, 00:14:38.861 --> 00:14:42.101 like a carry on or something like that. But I would imagine, 00:14:43.609 --> 00:14:48.529 a lot of the design of these speakers is common with some other more modern ones. 00:14:48.669 --> 00:14:49.829 So I would imagine you're going to 00:14:49.829 --> 00:14:56.509 see this expanding to, to include other speakers as well. I sure hope so. 00:14:57.109 --> 00:15:02.129 I just wish there was a general speaker OS that was just this. It was just this. 00:15:02.249 --> 00:15:02.369 Yeah. 00:15:03.089 --> 00:15:09.049 I also see in here that they support the stereo pairing that these Bose speakers can do. 00:15:09.209 --> 00:15:09.629 Oh, that's nice. 00:15:09.729 --> 00:15:11.869 In the past required, I think a cloud account. 00:15:12.509 --> 00:15:17.809 Yeah. Yeah, there's, I mean, that's kind of the joy for what Bose ended up doing 00:15:17.809 --> 00:15:22.289 here under pressure, was open sourcing the API for all of this. 00:15:22.429 --> 00:15:26.709 So it means there's a command line program now that you can just access every 00:15:26.709 --> 00:15:32.169 single function that was in there. So I've included a link to the PDF that Bose sent out. 00:15:32.429 --> 00:15:35.729 And I think they could have probably open sourced more of it, 00:15:35.869 --> 00:15:40.129 but at least what they did give was enough to get all this functionality back. 00:15:40.129 --> 00:15:44.809 So the stereo pairing functionality is like, if you have several of both speakers, 00:15:44.969 --> 00:15:48.649 you can either set them up beside each other and have a stereo environment or 00:15:48.649 --> 00:15:49.989 in separate rooms, right? 00:15:50.069 --> 00:15:53.469 Because they just run off the network. So they're just touching each other and 00:15:53.469 --> 00:15:58.669 you can have them streaming synced between various rooms or different floors 00:15:58.669 --> 00:15:59.929 in your house or something like that. 00:16:00.829 --> 00:16:03.989 So with i would say these might 00:16:03.989 --> 00:16:08.569 be hitting ebay really cheap real soon so maybe it's an opportunity to grab 00:16:08.569 --> 00:16:12.109 a bunch of them chris you and i were trying to find a speaker system for when 00:16:12.109 --> 00:16:16.189 we're working on cars this would be kind of perfect yeah we'll come around this 00:16:16.189 --> 00:16:21.089 yeah come around the shop good to go up an ebay alert i think is uh is the real lesson here today. 00:16:22.410 --> 00:16:27.010 Nice catch. And it's nice for the folks, too. And a nice way to solve that. 00:16:27.090 --> 00:16:31.310 So that was the Bose SoundTouch 30 with the code name Mojo. 00:16:31.550 --> 00:16:34.710 It is. That's a good code name. It's got more Mojo now, I would say. 00:16:34.870 --> 00:16:35.150 Yeah. 00:16:35.270 --> 00:16:35.710 Lots of Mojo. 00:16:35.710 --> 00:16:37.350 You brought back the Mojo. 00:16:37.670 --> 00:16:41.170 Well done. I wonder if we'll get extra functionality, too, once the projects 00:16:41.170 --> 00:16:44.390 kind of implement all of the initial functionality. 00:16:44.730 --> 00:16:46.530 Like, keep dreaming. Let's go nuts. 00:16:47.490 --> 00:16:52.630 I'm curious. Did you detect sort of what the possibility for a prank mode might be? 00:16:52.830 --> 00:16:56.150 You know, like it looks like it's going to play the audio you request, 00:16:56.310 --> 00:17:00.610 but it just plays Rickroll every time, something like that, or Linux Unplugged, random episodes. 00:17:00.650 --> 00:17:05.050 Yeah, I was able to find Linux Unplugged through the streaming services, 00:17:05.070 --> 00:17:07.970 so I was going to put that on one of their presets. 00:17:08.230 --> 00:17:11.550 Every Sunday morning, just have Kron turn it to the JBLive.fm stream. 00:17:11.770 --> 00:17:11.850 There we go. 00:17:12.190 --> 00:17:16.530 Yeah, that'd be awesome. Unfortunately, it didn't stream, so I'll have to put 00:17:16.530 --> 00:17:18.710 in a bug report or something, and we'll get that working. 00:17:19.250 --> 00:17:24.130 All right. I do want a chicken coop speaker, so you never, you never. Thank you, Brownlee. 00:17:24.230 --> 00:17:24.830 You're welcome. 00:17:25.350 --> 00:17:28.230 All right. So I know it's time for This Is The Way with Wes, 00:17:29.490 --> 00:17:33.590 and it looks like Wes took a look, a first look at Nasty. 00:17:33.810 --> 00:17:34.470 Yeah, that's right. 00:17:34.630 --> 00:17:40.810 And Nasty is getting a lot of attention in the NixOS, Bcash, and Rust communities. 00:17:41.010 --> 00:17:42.130 Which we don't have any interest in. 00:17:42.290 --> 00:17:45.570 So it's an interesting cross-section, and I've been seeing a lot of talk online 00:17:45.570 --> 00:17:47.670 about it, so I'm glad you took a first look. Tell us about it. 00:17:48.010 --> 00:17:52.550 Yeah, okay, so Nasty, it's GPL3 effort from Bartosz Fenski. 00:17:53.110 --> 00:17:58.050 I'm looking back on it, and I realized that first, I first saw it being posted 00:17:58.050 --> 00:18:03.150 about in the BcacheFS subreddit, because it's a NAS appliance-like project with 00:18:03.150 --> 00:18:04.450 BcacheFS under the hood. 00:18:04.530 --> 00:18:08.030 And we'll get more into how it works, but it came out on April 1st, 00:18:08.130 --> 00:18:14.670 and it was sort of a, it was billed as a mostly vibe-coded BcacheFS NAS. 00:18:15.010 --> 00:18:17.630 You know, it seemed sort of experimental, like a new project. 00:18:19.017 --> 00:18:22.417 And that's kind of how I took it. And then I saw that it kept getting posted 00:18:22.417 --> 00:18:25.237 about. It looked like regular progress, good sound and updates. 00:18:25.497 --> 00:18:28.837 And then, I don't know, 10 episodes back or so, we made it a pick. 00:18:29.017 --> 00:18:31.077 It's something just to keep an eye on. 00:18:31.817 --> 00:18:36.577 And I thought, well, they've had even more releases. They've made some big switches recently. 00:18:37.217 --> 00:18:40.677 And it seemed like it was probably time to really see if there was some there 00:18:40.677 --> 00:18:45.117 there. Because, of course, we have had mixed feelings on the show of various... Nases. 00:18:45.357 --> 00:18:47.597 Yeah, right? Some are really nice. They can work for some people. 00:18:48.677 --> 00:18:52.017 It's been a struggle for us to necessarily adopt them for our own particular 00:18:52.017 --> 00:18:54.517 workflows but we are very bcachefs curious. 00:18:54.517 --> 00:18:57.997 And and we're nixos friendly so it seems like if there was going to be one that 00:18:57.997 --> 00:19:03.117 got us it would probably be nasty because it's sort of in our our wheelhouse if you will say. 00:19:03.117 --> 00:19:04.297 That was kind of the hope here. 00:19:04.297 --> 00:19:10.197 It is a good name right and it so it builds itself on the github page as it 00:19:10.197 --> 00:19:14.557 turns commodity hardware into a storage appliance serving nfs samba i scuzzy 00:19:14.557 --> 00:19:18.337 and envy me over whatever. What is that? OF. 00:19:19.877 --> 00:19:23.497 Managed from a single web UI. Updated atomically and rolled back. 00:19:23.577 --> 00:19:26.217 I don't know. Like I'm using MVME over anything. 00:19:26.217 --> 00:19:27.537 Oh, it's MVME over fabrics. 00:19:27.897 --> 00:19:32.577 Like I'm using it over anything these days. Oh, it so stinks. 00:19:32.757 --> 00:19:35.537 I got an MVME that's overheating at home, so I want to replace it. 00:19:36.337 --> 00:19:40.097 I go online and look. Everything's crazy expensive, and I've never even heard 00:19:40.097 --> 00:19:41.197 of these vendors before. 00:19:41.337 --> 00:19:41.737 Oh, no. 00:19:41.737 --> 00:19:46.117 There's some Chinese name I can't pronounce. So you're buying it from some third-tier vendor. 00:19:46.817 --> 00:19:50.597 The state MVME. If you've got MVMEs, you've got literal gold. Right now. 00:19:50.777 --> 00:19:53.597 But so, yeah, that's what Nasty pitches itself as. 00:19:53.757 --> 00:19:56.817 And like Wes said, looks like it's using Bcache, compression, 00:19:57.017 --> 00:20:00.397 checksumming, erasure coding, tiering encryption and snapshots, 00:20:00.457 --> 00:20:02.317 which is really interesting. 00:20:02.517 --> 00:20:07.337 It also brings sub volume support, encryption lifecycle support and backups, 00:20:07.637 --> 00:20:10.837 including deduplication, incremental backups to local S3, SFTP, 00:20:11.217 --> 00:20:14.557 REST, Backblaze B2 and per profile schedules and retention. 00:20:14.557 --> 00:20:17.677 Yeah, I was impressed by how much is already in here, right? 00:20:17.757 --> 00:20:23.737 Because it isn't just the core NAS part about managing the disks and interacting with BeacHFS. 00:20:23.877 --> 00:20:27.097 That's all there too, right? But like there's all kind of backups, 00:20:27.457 --> 00:20:31.277 alerts, firewall management, TLS stuff. You can do Let's Encrypt up. 00:20:31.477 --> 00:20:35.237 It has a tail scale integration, sort of automatic if you want to plug into 00:20:35.237 --> 00:20:37.917 your tail net really easily to allow remote access. 00:20:38.477 --> 00:20:42.597 It has a capability to spin up VMs for you as well as what they call apps, 00:20:42.637 --> 00:20:43.937 which are really just Docker containers. 00:20:43.937 --> 00:20:48.397 Which you can run sort of like directly by putting the container info in in 00:20:48.397 --> 00:20:52.837 the gui or it has a spot to drop a docker compose if you want so that's kind 00:20:52.837 --> 00:20:56.617 of nice yeah so there's just kind of like a lot happening which can be good 00:20:56.617 --> 00:20:58.957 or bad right we have mixed feelings on this and with some of these. 00:20:59.927 --> 00:21:05.287 Projects but what made me curious of course was it's nix os and then it's powered 00:21:05.287 --> 00:21:10.127 by a rust demon under the hood and so like actually getting it running in a 00:21:10.127 --> 00:21:13.827 vm kind of getting configured with some like test disks which are just all virtualized 00:21:13.827 --> 00:21:15.207 right now i haven't put it on real hardware yet, 00:21:15.667 --> 00:21:18.507 um and then kind of seeing like well what does it look like 00:21:18.507 --> 00:21:21.187 and it had a pretty basic little installer kind of with like 00:21:21.187 --> 00:21:24.027 a nix os install okay but that was easy enough i think the download 00:21:24.027 --> 00:21:26.927 was like less than two gigs for the iso and then it 00:21:26.927 --> 00:21:30.447 was using maybe like four gigs on disk when i got everything installed it 00:21:30.447 --> 00:21:33.487 does kind of have a nice option where you can either opt 00:21:33.487 --> 00:21:36.747 to use an entire disk just like this is your nasty 00:21:36.747 --> 00:21:39.847 os drive and then you'll have other disks on the system that you use actually 00:21:39.847 --> 00:21:44.107 for whatever your pool is going to be yeah but it does have an option to just 00:21:44.107 --> 00:21:48.107 take up like a certain amount of space of the disk and put the os there and 00:21:48.107 --> 00:21:51.327 then leave the rest of main available for storage so i thought that was kind 00:21:51.327 --> 00:21:53.847 of a nice touch that you know didn't actually need to have yeah. 00:21:55.001 --> 00:21:59.021 What's interesting here is it turns out Nix OS is kind of just the provisioning layer. 00:21:59.141 --> 00:22:02.641 So it's there just to kind of provide the kernel modules, the base system d 00:22:02.641 --> 00:22:06.061 units, the base packages and software that you're going to need for this thing. 00:22:06.801 --> 00:22:09.921 And the Rust engine is kind of the real runtime. 00:22:10.241 --> 00:22:10.581 Oh, really? 00:22:10.781 --> 00:22:16.701 Yes. So it keeps a bunch, kind of like Cosmic, it keeps a bunch of JSON files 00:22:16.701 --> 00:22:20.721 in varlib nasty, which just follows directly the Nix OS pattern of just using 00:22:20.721 --> 00:22:22.321 varlib for the application state. 00:22:22.321 --> 00:22:28.541 And what's great about that is the state can be easily checkpointed, 00:22:28.661 --> 00:22:33.341 snapshotted, and backed up because basically all the stuff that you do in the 00:22:33.341 --> 00:22:36.161 UI is just stored in those JSON files. 00:22:36.361 --> 00:22:40.341 So if you toggle your Samba shares on or NFS exports, that kind of stuff, 00:22:40.521 --> 00:22:45.221 you don't do a whole NixOS rebuild because a lot of this stuff isn't in NixOS. 00:22:45.221 --> 00:22:49.621 It's sort of dynamically applied by the Rust runtime to Systemd. 00:22:50.001 --> 00:22:52.341 But it's still kept in a way that you can manage. 00:22:52.521 --> 00:22:55.421 I noticed they also offer a 2E, so then I would imagine you can toggle it. 00:22:55.801 --> 00:22:58.121 Either way, that's going to write to the JSON settings. 00:22:58.461 --> 00:23:02.161 Right. And there's still some stuff, like I think some of the firewall stuff, 00:23:02.261 --> 00:23:05.581 like there is some stuff that's built at the NixOS layer, and so that does require 00:23:05.581 --> 00:23:08.541 NixOS rebuild, but the daemon just does that under the hood for you anyway. 00:23:08.781 --> 00:23:10.361 So you don't really have to interact. 00:23:10.401 --> 00:23:14.561 I have a question here. Wes, how do you feel about that architecture decision? 00:23:14.881 --> 00:23:18.261 I think it makes sense for what they're doing. they're trying 00:23:18.261 --> 00:23:21.501 to compete with the high level 00:23:21.501 --> 00:23:24.341 of dynamic behavior that you see 00:23:24.341 --> 00:23:27.501 in a lot of these style of application so if 00:23:27.501 --> 00:23:30.721 your entire goal is like I want a purely 00:23:30.721 --> 00:23:34.241 mixed managed infrastructure as code approach this 00:23:34.241 --> 00:23:37.061 isn't quite that it does have sort of 00:23:37.061 --> 00:23:42.581 a like the JSON side of it means that you do get a more effectively declarative 00:23:42.581 --> 00:23:47.141 style of approach but it's not necessarily quite the same is like a the same 00:23:47.141 --> 00:23:50.501 ux of writing something that's meant to be that right it's more about having 00:23:50.501 --> 00:23:54.481 a nice way to capture the state and have it be easy to introspect and edit and 00:23:54.481 --> 00:23:56.641 back up and manipulate or diff even, 00:23:58.096 --> 00:24:00.916 So it kind of depends on what, like, how much you need, you know, 00:24:00.996 --> 00:24:04.176 do you want a nice UI that you know you can go toggle things on and when you 00:24:04.176 --> 00:24:09.296 click the enable Samba button, like, you don't have to do a full rebuild of 00:24:09.296 --> 00:24:12.436 the NixOS stuff, it just does it for you. 00:24:12.656 --> 00:24:16.136 So in your opinion, is this, I guess what I'm trying to get at here is, 00:24:16.316 --> 00:24:19.036 could you use this thing and never have to touch the UI? 00:24:19.556 --> 00:24:21.436 Yeah, I don't know, I don't think it's meant for that. 00:24:21.536 --> 00:24:21.696 Okay. 00:24:21.836 --> 00:24:24.756 So I don't know that there's a great interface to go manipulate those JSON files. 00:24:24.896 --> 00:24:27.496 If you were willing to make the JSON files, then yeah, totally. 00:24:28.176 --> 00:24:31.916 I don't think there's a great, it looks like maybe they're starting some REST API. 00:24:32.076 --> 00:24:38.516 Right now a lot of it is web sockets between the Svelte UI JavaScript layer 00:24:38.516 --> 00:24:40.396 and then the Rust engine backend. 00:24:40.616 --> 00:24:42.436 Yeah, but it does look like that's something they're working on here, 00:24:42.536 --> 00:24:45.396 JSON RPC 2.0 over web sockets. 00:24:45.716 --> 00:24:48.496 Yeah. And so I think there's probably a version of that where you could have 00:24:48.496 --> 00:24:53.316 it more be programmatically exposed to just talk to the engine directly and 00:24:53.316 --> 00:24:54.796 have it synchronized to the state. 00:24:55.826 --> 00:24:57.226 Seems like you're kind of impressed with it, though. 00:24:57.826 --> 00:25:01.766 Well, there's just more here than I thought. Like, it might be one of the nicer 00:25:01.766 --> 00:25:05.186 ways if you want to play with BcacheFS. 00:25:06.106 --> 00:25:09.146 Because, like, there's a nice UI that walks you through building the array, 00:25:09.146 --> 00:25:11.586 and it does support encryption, and it supports compression, 00:25:11.826 --> 00:25:14.106 and it supports various redundancy levels and stuff. 00:25:14.326 --> 00:25:16.406 I don't know if it's strictly everything, because there's, like, 00:25:16.406 --> 00:25:19.186 a lot of options you can do with BcacheFS, but it's a lot more than, 00:25:19.286 --> 00:25:24.146 like, even I've probably tried, right, just in terms of building different styles of arrays. 00:25:25.306 --> 00:25:28.406 And because it's nix west you know that the like dkms situations well 00:25:28.406 --> 00:25:31.166 managed it's all handled for an appliance so you don't really have to worry about like how do 00:25:31.166 --> 00:25:34.386 you get it and how is it well supported because it's just built in 00:25:34.386 --> 00:25:37.086 from that i mean i'm not saying go put all your data on the system right 00:25:37.086 --> 00:25:40.806 now right it is very much pre i mean it's like version 008 00:25:40.806 --> 00:25:43.886 they just did a big switch for like the app stuff 00:25:43.886 --> 00:25:47.606 is now powered by caddy instead of nginx which makes lets it be 00:25:47.606 --> 00:25:50.426 a little more dynamic and they can they kind of automatically let 00:25:50.426 --> 00:25:54.046 you do if you want to set up like a subdomain system per app that 00:25:54.046 --> 00:25:57.426 can just happen automatically right off the top of your appliance so you 00:25:57.426 --> 00:26:00.946 kind of get some of the things you can do nicely in a clean way on 00:26:00.946 --> 00:26:07.246 a modern linux system but with a helper ui on top like you can go run like it's 00:26:07.246 --> 00:26:11.006 easy to get root ssh on there no problem there's a terminal in the ui you can 00:26:11.006 --> 00:26:14.986 use so you can just go run docker containers yourself that's not a problem you 00:26:14.986 --> 00:26:18.706 can introspect the state you can kind of manipulate things but you don't have to. 00:26:19.598 --> 00:26:22.758 It is very fascinating to watch the momentum of this. 00:26:22.898 --> 00:26:27.198 Like a few of these projects we've been covering recently, they committed five 00:26:27.198 --> 00:26:30.238 minutes ago on a Sunday while we're live streaming and recording. 00:26:30.438 --> 00:26:34.718 Like they're working just nonstop on this stuff. There's a real momentum and, 00:26:34.718 --> 00:26:37.298 you know, people contributing. 00:26:37.658 --> 00:26:41.898 So I'd say it's growing. It's just two contributors at the moment, but it's growing. 00:26:42.298 --> 00:26:45.758 It looks good. Worth keeping an eye on, but not worth switching your data over 00:26:45.758 --> 00:26:47.158 to yet. It's sort of the final verdict. 00:26:47.158 --> 00:26:50.518 Yeah, I mean, if you want something that's going to be steady and not have any 00:26:50.518 --> 00:26:53.498 major changes of architecture or something, I don't think it's there yet, right? 00:26:54.138 --> 00:26:58.398 It's still pretty new. But I do think it's worth, it's a nice entrance into 00:26:58.398 --> 00:27:02.438 the space of available sort of appliances for this because it feels leaner. 00:27:02.538 --> 00:27:03.718 It feels more introspectable. 00:27:04.038 --> 00:27:06.958 It kind of feels like a little bit more of a modern architecture for how you 00:27:06.958 --> 00:27:09.838 might build one of these today. And I like that. 00:27:10.158 --> 00:27:13.918 Yeah. Thank you, Wes. Check out Nasty. We'll have links in the show notes. 00:27:16.178 --> 00:27:19.998 I want to thank Connect 10 Internet. They're not a sponsor, but I did reach 00:27:19.998 --> 00:27:21.278 out to them to get a discount for you. 00:27:21.378 --> 00:27:25.358 Jupiter 35 will get $35 off your total order. 00:27:25.918 --> 00:27:29.338 Connect 10 Internet offers high-speed, reliable Internet services across the 00:27:29.338 --> 00:27:32.838 U.S. and Canada, and I've been utilizing them for my backup Internet connection. 00:27:33.158 --> 00:27:36.558 They have services for everybody that wants to use it for backup Internet to 00:27:36.558 --> 00:27:39.938 people that want to use it for high-speed data with high priority. 00:27:39.938 --> 00:27:44.118 So they offer truly unlimited plans with no data caps and high-priority data. 00:27:44.378 --> 00:27:48.898 I like them, so I said, hey, I'm going to talk about you mostly in next week's 00:27:48.898 --> 00:27:51.938 episode. But they got me a discount code early, so I'm telling you about it 00:27:51.938 --> 00:27:55.638 now. It's Jupyter35, and it'll take $35 off your order. 00:27:55.698 --> 00:27:58.758 And they just came out with this killer idea. 00:27:59.938 --> 00:28:03.098 $39 a month, and it's a backup Internet plan. 00:28:03.678 --> 00:28:06.758 So they have a slick router that auto-monitors your connection. 00:28:06.758 --> 00:28:10.398 And when your main internet goes down, they instantly connect to one of their 00:28:10.398 --> 00:28:12.718 four major wireless carriers, they just bundle all four. 00:28:13.138 --> 00:28:16.558 And then when your mainline internet comes back online, it switches you back automatically. 00:28:18.175 --> 00:28:25.115 Uh, now I just built this using Linux and then like they contacted me and they're 00:28:25.115 --> 00:28:26.515 like, Hey, guess what? We got this new thing. 00:28:26.655 --> 00:28:31.055 And I'm like, we think it's perfect for you. And I'm like, two weeks ago. 00:28:31.235 --> 00:28:32.315 It is perfect for me. 00:28:32.775 --> 00:28:36.195 Yeah. Uh, so I'm using something different. I'm using like they have this fortress 00:28:36.195 --> 00:28:38.415 router. How would you describe this thing? Brent? It's like, 00:28:38.575 --> 00:28:40.615 it's fortress is a great name for it. 00:28:40.755 --> 00:28:44.735 It kind of looks like a spider with a ton of antennae coming out of it. 00:28:44.795 --> 00:28:49.215 And it's, it's industrially built. You can take it apart and look at what's 00:28:49.215 --> 00:28:54.475 inside if you want to undo many, many, many, many screws. But it's very waterproof. 00:28:55.455 --> 00:29:00.015 You can throw this thing around if you need to. It's been all the way to California 00:29:00.015 --> 00:29:03.055 and back for some reason. It's a great device. 00:29:03.615 --> 00:29:08.495 It really is. And it is very robust. We put it up way high on top of a barn. 00:29:08.575 --> 00:29:10.895 And I'm just getting crazy internet speeds. 00:29:11.115 --> 00:29:13.515 And it picks the best network in the area. 00:29:14.155 --> 00:29:18.155 And this device runs OpenWRT. It's an impressive bit of kit. 00:29:18.635 --> 00:29:22.255 So it's connect10internet.com. I'll put a link in the show notes. 00:29:22.415 --> 00:29:25.295 That's connect10internet.com. And if you use the promo code Jupiter35, 00:29:25.595 --> 00:29:27.995 they'll take $35 off your plan. 00:29:28.235 --> 00:29:31.615 And they do have that new $39. They'll take $35 off your order. 00:29:32.135 --> 00:29:35.195 And they have that $39 backup internet plan. I just realized there's a lot of 00:29:35.195 --> 00:29:35.995 numbers that are confusing. 00:29:36.155 --> 00:29:41.115 So to make it clear, Jupiter35 is the promo code. It takes $35 off your entire order one time. 00:29:41.275 --> 00:29:44.535 And they have that $39 backup internet plan. Does that make sense? 00:29:44.795 --> 00:29:46.035 I hope so. It's a lot of numbers. 00:29:46.035 --> 00:29:47.435 It sounds like a good deal. 00:29:47.595 --> 00:29:52.535 It is a good deal. I'm really impressed because I can both connect to 5G and 4G. 00:29:52.675 --> 00:29:58.455 And the way I had solved this in the past was I had multiple carrier plans. 00:29:58.475 --> 00:30:03.035 And then I have a pep link that would just combine or switch between. 00:30:03.375 --> 00:30:06.855 But you had to have actual like multiple SIM cards in this device with multiple 00:30:06.855 --> 00:30:10.635 plans. And now Connect 10 just puts it all in one service. 00:30:11.255 --> 00:30:14.675 They are the meta provider. and they have the gear to switch between the networks 00:30:14.675 --> 00:30:17.355 for the one that has the best signal and has given you the best data. 00:30:17.575 --> 00:30:19.495 I just think it's super cool. It's been working really well. 00:30:19.635 --> 00:30:22.075 Like I flipped over in the evening, 00:30:23.074 --> 00:30:28.774 Peak time and was getting 120 megabits down during peak traffic. 00:30:29.534 --> 00:30:33.274 And I was like, this is great. And that's just like, you know, 00:30:33.454 --> 00:30:36.654 worst case. That's worst case for me. It's really awesome. 00:30:36.934 --> 00:30:40.234 So that's my worst case speed. So go check it out, connect10internet.com. 00:30:40.374 --> 00:30:43.274 We'll put a link in the show notes, and the promo code is Jupyter35. 00:30:43.654 --> 00:30:47.014 And next week I plan to talk more about some of the backup internet infrastructure 00:30:47.014 --> 00:30:48.154 that I've been building at the farm. 00:30:48.714 --> 00:30:52.174 And they were a big part of making all that work. I've been really impressed. 00:30:52.174 --> 00:30:55.894 So it's promo code jupiter35connect10internet.com. 00:30:59.174 --> 00:31:03.974 Well, two of us have gone so far, I think, with some interesting projects. 00:31:03.974 --> 00:31:07.234 But there are three hosts on this here show. 00:31:07.474 --> 00:31:09.894 So, Chris, what did you get into this week? 00:31:10.634 --> 00:31:14.214 Boys, you know I've been doing the OpenClaw thing now for quite a while. 00:31:14.214 --> 00:31:19.374 I set up a dedicated Lenovo ThinkCenter that's running or was running OpenClaw. 00:31:20.394 --> 00:31:24.914 Um and uh as time went on i started using them for more and more serious things 00:31:24.914 --> 00:31:27.954 i think it's so funny when people say what do you use it for what do you use 00:31:27.954 --> 00:31:33.334 it for like dude everything like what your imagination is the limit um. 00:31:33.334 --> 00:31:36.674 It's i have these from like watching you use it it's one of those tools that 00:31:36.674 --> 00:31:40.254 you don't know what you're going to use it for until you like integrate the 00:31:40.254 --> 00:31:45.594 tool into your routine or you have it near you and then you're like oh wait 00:31:45.594 --> 00:31:48.734 a second this is gonna do way more than you could have ever imagined before 00:31:48.734 --> 00:31:50.274 you even integrate into your life. 00:31:50.454 --> 00:31:53.674 So I think the answer to the question, what are you going to do with it is like, just. 00:31:55.006 --> 00:31:59.146 Yeah, and I think, you know, a clarifying thing for me was having a small business 00:31:59.146 --> 00:32:02.306 that has a thousand tasks that needs done and I only have time for 10 of them. 00:32:02.486 --> 00:32:03.926 That's a big use case for sure. 00:32:03.986 --> 00:32:07.006 So I was like, oh, well, all right, that needs solved, that needs solved, 00:32:07.106 --> 00:32:08.286 that needs solved, that needs solved. 00:32:08.466 --> 00:32:13.986 So I have agents that prep clips for me, you know, based on the stuff that I 00:32:13.986 --> 00:32:15.406 feed them. They prep the clips for me. 00:32:15.526 --> 00:32:18.066 They monitor the infrastructure for me. They read alerts. 00:32:18.466 --> 00:32:21.486 They can update the home. I have three different home assistant instances that 00:32:21.486 --> 00:32:23.886 they are monitoring and updating. They're working with Git to make sure the 00:32:23.886 --> 00:32:25.286 projects are getting checked in and managed. 00:32:25.486 --> 00:32:27.846 They're keeping my Nix boxes maintained. 00:32:28.486 --> 00:32:31.826 And they also deploy infrastructure. And then on top of that, 00:32:31.986 --> 00:32:34.666 there's reporting that they're providing me. 00:32:34.926 --> 00:32:38.246 There's email summaries that they're getting using the GWS CLI. 00:32:38.686 --> 00:32:43.166 A lot of stuff in there. There's a lot that I use them for. Ordering your groceries. 00:32:43.926 --> 00:32:44.206 Yep. 00:32:44.406 --> 00:32:46.846 Ordering my groceries is another one. I know it sounds silly, 00:32:46.846 --> 00:32:50.726 but how many times are you walking around the house and you're like, oh, I need to get this? 00:32:50.726 --> 00:32:54.446 Or you open up the fridge like oh i'm out of butter and then five minutes goes 00:32:54.446 --> 00:32:56.986 by and you completely forgot to ever put it on any list and then you're at the 00:32:56.986 --> 00:33:01.746 grocery store like what the crap was i what was it so i just i just fire off 00:33:01.746 --> 00:33:06.026 to the bot really quick we're out of butter and then it uses the kroger api 00:33:06.026 --> 00:33:09.846 and it adds my preferred butter to the shopping cart so. 00:33:09.846 --> 00:33:13.166 Great it's also like for me it's useful for that too but it can also then help 00:33:13.166 --> 00:33:18.466 build like now i can interface better with that stuff and start recording that 00:33:18.466 --> 00:33:22.326 and then have a data set of my own locally not dependent on their database. 00:33:22.326 --> 00:33:26.486 Yeah that's what i do too as i have a preferences.json file with all my brands 00:33:26.486 --> 00:33:29.926 and sizes and flavor preferences and all that that's all built in my own data 00:33:29.926 --> 00:33:32.566 set that would move to any other api and. 00:33:32.566 --> 00:33:36.546 You can like you know save all of your orders see how you know your own local 00:33:36.546 --> 00:33:39.966 rate of inflation measure how your preferences change over time whatever you want. 00:33:39.966 --> 00:33:45.386 And as i started using it it kind of went from could it do this could this work 00:33:45.386 --> 00:33:47.786 to, well, this needs to work now. 00:33:48.566 --> 00:33:51.046 I'm not doing that task anymore, so this needs to work. 00:33:52.066 --> 00:33:57.326 And the reality was is that I had built this around OpenClaw very early on when it was still called, 00:33:58.619 --> 00:34:00.079 Claude something. 00:34:00.339 --> 00:34:02.099 Right. Claudebot? 00:34:02.339 --> 00:34:06.679 Whatever it was. And then Moabot. And then OpenClaw. It's funny. 00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:08.019 See, it seemed like such a big deal back then. 00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:12.119 And it just went through all the transitions. And then a lot of things I solved 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:15.779 for, like memory and other problems, like excluding plugins and all this stuff, 00:34:16.399 --> 00:34:20.119 the project started solving for and replacing the solution that I had built for it. 00:34:20.179 --> 00:34:23.039 And then I would have to spend time adapting to their new solution. 00:34:23.219 --> 00:34:24.659 And not just once. 00:34:25.559 --> 00:34:26.139 Every week? 00:34:26.219 --> 00:34:27.279 I mean, yeah. 00:34:27.579 --> 00:34:33.399 Every week. Yeah. Also, there's this problem that I have with OpenClaw. 00:34:33.499 --> 00:34:35.999 I still think it's a great project. I'm just telling you what I ran into. 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:41.279 It's one control gateway. Many agents, one control gateway. 00:34:41.759 --> 00:34:46.259 And that is useful for certain things, but not for how I use it. I'll get into that more. 00:34:46.259 --> 00:34:51.839 Yeah, I had a good... OpenClaw is fundamentally basically like a channel-first harness. 00:34:52.059 --> 00:34:56.159 It's like really built around connecting to these channels of talking to you, 00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:59.379 whether that's WhatsApp or Telegram or Slack or whatever it is. 00:34:59.739 --> 00:35:01.699 And Hermes has a different architecture. 00:35:01.959 --> 00:35:06.279 So I decided to try out Hermes. I liked a couple of things about it. 00:35:06.359 --> 00:35:08.979 It's Python-based versus Node-based. 00:35:09.499 --> 00:35:15.439 And I will be honest, I do like that. The project natively ships a flake.nix. 00:35:15.439 --> 00:35:17.459 So they got my attention with that. 00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:20.839 The other thing they do that I just sort of appreciate as somebody that's using 00:35:20.839 --> 00:35:26.519 it in production is so far they seem to have sort of thematically focused releases. 00:35:26.899 --> 00:35:30.239 So OpenClaw, they ship very fast and they just kind of include everything that 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:34.539 they have ready in each release where Hermes kind of is a little bit more planned. 00:35:34.539 --> 00:35:36.419 This release focuses on this set of features. 00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:39.319 This release focuses on security and then this release focuses on another set 00:35:39.319 --> 00:35:44.039 of features and it's a little more implicit and thought through that way. 00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:46.919 I just find that release cadence works a little bit better for me. 00:35:47.359 --> 00:35:51.459 But the thing that really works for me is instead of one big gateway with Hermes, 00:35:51.659 --> 00:35:54.379 each agent has its own gateway. 00:35:55.531 --> 00:35:58.091 And at first I was like, oh, what a mess. But man, is that great. 00:35:58.211 --> 00:36:01.271 Because not only does it make it super easy for each agent to use their own 00:36:01.271 --> 00:36:04.631 model, which is great for an agent that can just use a cheap free model or a 00:36:04.631 --> 00:36:07.471 local model that doesn't need to do a lot. Another one can use a heavy lift model. 00:36:08.271 --> 00:36:10.891 But it also means when I want to make configuration changes, 00:36:10.891 --> 00:36:16.171 I'm only restarting one agent's gateway at a time. And my other agents don't get taken down. 00:36:16.451 --> 00:36:19.291 And so far this hasn't happened. But if they blow up their config, 00:36:19.611 --> 00:36:22.531 I'm not taking the other agents out. Although it hasn't blown up the config yet. 00:36:22.711 --> 00:36:26.671 Yeah, this is what it calls profiles, right? So you can have different profiles 00:36:26.671 --> 00:36:31.191 where you each kind of get their whole own setup, which you would get with a 00:36:31.191 --> 00:36:32.391 single OpenClaw instance. 00:36:32.851 --> 00:36:35.891 And then you can do all the normal stuff so they can have their own subagents 00:36:35.891 --> 00:36:38.671 or do whatever you need to, but they can function independently. 00:36:39.471 --> 00:36:43.811 And you had already sort of adopted that architecture in your own personal world. 00:36:44.611 --> 00:36:47.391 And it's another case where OpenClaw hadn't really got there. 00:36:47.531 --> 00:36:51.771 And now there are other models out there that is just a natural one-to-one fit 00:36:51.771 --> 00:36:53.031 for how you already use it. 00:36:53.171 --> 00:36:55.171 Chris is just too bleeding edge. it seems. 00:36:55.611 --> 00:36:57.711 Well, there's just different approaches too. I think, you know, 00:36:57.871 --> 00:37:01.011 one of the things, if I were really trying to build my own complete thing, 00:37:01.111 --> 00:37:05.471 but I wanted to base it off something, I might either just go straight to Pi or I might use OpenClaw. 00:37:06.311 --> 00:37:08.191 Hermes has another thing that I just want to mention, because I know it's one 00:37:08.191 --> 00:37:11.111 of the first things that comes up, is they have what is called this closed learning 00:37:11.111 --> 00:37:16.031 loop, where they have agent curated memory that kind of goes through and automatically 00:37:16.031 --> 00:37:19.231 creates skills for complex tasks that it's noticed it's been asked to do. 00:37:20.457 --> 00:37:24.537 And it uses, you know, some LLM summarization to go through and build a skill 00:37:24.537 --> 00:37:27.017 and it auto creates skills for itself. 00:37:28.517 --> 00:37:32.377 This is both a good thing and a bad thing, in my opinion. I think it can be 00:37:32.377 --> 00:37:36.637 a bad thing in the sense that if you're practicing, say I'm building out a swag 00:37:36.637 --> 00:37:40.477 pipeline and the commands aren't right, something isn't right. 00:37:40.957 --> 00:37:46.717 It could accidentally auto learn the wrong thing, the wrong tool call, the wrong path. 00:37:46.917 --> 00:37:49.237 And so you have to kind of be, I think you have to watch it. 00:37:49.337 --> 00:37:50.177 At least that's in my opinion. 00:37:50.457 --> 00:37:53.257 You probably want to be auditing the changes it's making to your skills. 00:37:53.357 --> 00:37:56.977 So that's what I've done is my agents say this is what I've auto-learned and 00:37:56.977 --> 00:37:59.677 I have to approve the auto-learning right now. I'm just kind of watching it that way. 00:38:00.457 --> 00:38:03.717 But the Hermes system seems to be really, really solid. 00:38:04.077 --> 00:38:07.537 The skill system is excellent. The memory system, I think, is quite good. 00:38:07.737 --> 00:38:12.037 I not only have a good markdown-based memory system, but then I'm using an external 00:38:12.037 --> 00:38:14.537 memory system for some of the more vector-type-based stuff. 00:38:15.077 --> 00:38:18.477 It feels a little bit faster, too. It seems like it responds a little bit faster. 00:38:19.077 --> 00:38:21.977 Yeah it seemed like it had very clean and well documented extension 00:38:21.977 --> 00:38:24.897 points so like for your stuff with like you had even 00:38:24.897 --> 00:38:27.757 experimented with writing your own open claw plugin yeah and 00:38:27.757 --> 00:38:30.717 it's totally possible to do but it just felt like 00:38:30.717 --> 00:38:34.177 like instead of having to conform to this whole plugin architecture here you 00:38:34.177 --> 00:38:38.497 kind of just basically implement like a version of an abstract class in python 00:38:38.497 --> 00:38:41.317 and it was just like a simple clean well-documented api that you could really 00:38:41.317 --> 00:38:45.317 implement with whatever and there's already a bunch of python things that interface 00:38:45.317 --> 00:38:49.517 to all of these Rust built vector engines or whatever you're actually tying in. 00:38:49.777 --> 00:38:54.417 Yeah. And a lot of them have MCPs. I want to note something though because transitioning 00:38:54.417 --> 00:38:59.937 between an agent harness like OpenClaw to Hermes isn't like moving from Debian 00:38:59.937 --> 00:39:02.537 to Fedora. It's a different kind of, 00:39:04.991 --> 00:39:08.671 hop, I guess. It's a different kind of transition. In a way, 00:39:08.891 --> 00:39:13.251 it's maybe easier because these things are so text-based, so markdown-based. 00:39:13.571 --> 00:39:17.831 Things live in sort of the same common things like a soul.md and an agents.md, 00:39:18.011 --> 00:39:23.411 and the memories on both systems are markdown-based, that the migration path 00:39:23.411 --> 00:39:27.211 is surprisingly clean, if not just slightly time-consuming, depending on how 00:39:27.211 --> 00:39:32.031 you do it, but it's not like a jarring change. 00:39:32.271 --> 00:39:35.851 I don't know if I'm putting it right, but it's not, And not that moving distros 00:39:35.851 --> 00:39:39.571 is like this huge, jarring change, but it feels like less of a transition than 00:39:39.571 --> 00:39:41.391 maybe just swapping from Debian to Fedora. 00:39:41.531 --> 00:39:44.491 Probably helps, too, to go from OpenClaw, just in the sense that, 00:39:44.571 --> 00:39:48.351 like, it's so big. It had so much momentum that I think there are a lot of folks, 00:39:48.511 --> 00:39:52.671 too, that were incentivized to also have a similar architecture and or well 00:39:52.671 --> 00:39:54.491 support folks coming over from it. 00:39:54.951 --> 00:39:59.231 But yeah right not only do you can you use sort of helper intelligence tools 00:39:59.231 --> 00:40:04.511 to do some of the migration but a lot of it like you know it has to store state 00:40:04.511 --> 00:40:09.171 to persist between its its loops anyway so like it all kind of needs to be in 00:40:09.171 --> 00:40:12.371 these folders you just might need to update some config files or use different 00:40:12.371 --> 00:40:13.671 config files to get it running yeah. 00:40:13.671 --> 00:40:17.191 The trickiest stuff comes down to don't run both gateways at the same time trying 00:40:17.191 --> 00:40:20.231 to use the same telegram bot token or whatever you're like that's the trickiest bit. 00:40:20.231 --> 00:40:21.971 How do you do the cutover yeah just don't. 00:40:21.971 --> 00:40:24.291 Have token collision for whatever chat platform you're using. 00:40:24.531 --> 00:40:28.411 And that's kind of just standard Linux sysadmin operational thing. 00:40:28.491 --> 00:40:35.111 Yeah, yeah. Also, I'm so impressed with how far you can get with a good set 00:40:35.111 --> 00:40:41.731 of skills and some wrappers with these free or cheap open source models like 00:40:41.731 --> 00:40:44.331 Minimax and Kimmy and Quinn. 00:40:44.791 --> 00:40:48.251 It's a massive unlock that I don't think our community has fully wrapped their 00:40:48.251 --> 00:40:51.311 head around because at least I don't see people talking about it. 00:40:51.311 --> 00:40:53.371 I don't think what I'm about to say is any huge, 00:40:54.777 --> 00:40:57.677 massive discovery of some master 00:40:57.677 --> 00:41:01.217 AI workflow that turns these things from ambiguous to deterministic. 00:41:01.437 --> 00:41:05.337 But it is such a rock solid workflow. I'm surprised I don't hear people screaming 00:41:05.337 --> 00:41:06.517 about it from the top of the hill. 00:41:06.737 --> 00:41:14.497 And it's a way to take advantage of free models or cheap models like DeepSeek, like Minimax. 00:41:14.737 --> 00:41:19.777 And it's simple. You set yourself an actual little bit of a budget to go burn 00:41:19.777 --> 00:41:23.277 some money on a frontier model like a ChatGipity or like a Claude. 00:41:24.117 --> 00:41:27.097 And then you use something like open code. 00:41:28.158 --> 00:41:30.718 Connected to one of these higher-end models. And again, you're just, 00:41:31.038 --> 00:41:34.038 you know, set yourself 25 bucks, right? It's not going to be a big deal. 00:41:34.478 --> 00:41:39.118 And you have these higher-end models operate your agent, be it OpenClaw, 00:41:39.278 --> 00:41:42.998 Hermes, whatever it is, have it operate it like a puppet because they all have 00:41:42.998 --> 00:41:45.898 command line interfaces and MCPs and ACPs. 00:41:46.058 --> 00:41:54.098 So you can have OpenCode using GPT 5.5 operate a Minimax-based agent like a 00:41:54.098 --> 00:41:57.318 puppet. it. And while it's operating that thing through its job, 00:41:57.498 --> 00:42:00.718 you can have it sit there and watch and monitor everything the agent does. 00:42:00.878 --> 00:42:04.518 Every mistake it makes, every wrong tool call it makes, as it tries to figure 00:42:04.518 --> 00:42:09.458 itself out where it got ambiguous in the instructions, the bigger powered model can watch all of that. 00:42:09.598 --> 00:42:13.238 And then you tell it, where does it need improvement? It goes back, 00:42:13.318 --> 00:42:17.078 it hardens up the skills, it improves the wrappers, and you do the run again. 00:42:17.098 --> 00:42:21.418 And you have the bigger model watch one more time. Maybe you do it three times. 00:42:21.798 --> 00:42:25.098 And you just do it till there's no mistakes. And from that point forward, 00:42:25.338 --> 00:42:29.798 that cheaper model is going to execute that task without issue just about every single time. 00:42:29.938 --> 00:42:33.078 I don't care if it's LLM or what, because you're combining scripts, 00:42:33.358 --> 00:42:37.138 you're combining wrappers and skills into something that is actually a very 00:42:37.138 --> 00:42:40.238 solid workflow where the LLM isn't making up a bunch of stuff. 00:42:40.238 --> 00:42:43.678 It's following a very specific sequence using very specific tools, 00:42:43.678 --> 00:42:47.658 and it produces the same result every time. It's reliable. And I don't know 00:42:47.658 --> 00:42:50.678 why this is like one of the bigger conversations in this space, 00:42:50.678 --> 00:42:54.778 because it's so simple and straightforward and produces incredible results. 00:42:54.958 --> 00:42:59.378 So what did I do after I migrated from OpenClaw to Hermes? I brought up OpenCode. 00:42:59.858 --> 00:43:05.578 Put 25 bucks on OpenRouter, used Jippity55, and I had it just orchestrate all 00:43:05.578 --> 00:43:07.878 the tasks I normally have these agents do under OpenClaw. 00:43:08.078 --> 00:43:10.578 Now do it under Hermes. Watch everything that breaks. 00:43:10.838 --> 00:43:14.498 Wrong skill path, wrong tool code. What didn't it get right under this new system? 00:43:14.658 --> 00:43:17.598 And then it just went through boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, and fixed every 00:43:17.598 --> 00:43:19.978 agent line by line by line on anything that came up. 00:43:20.598 --> 00:43:23.618 And within like, I don't know, probably a day of just like, oh, 00:43:23.718 --> 00:43:25.138 I'll try this. How did it do? I was done. 00:43:25.898 --> 00:43:30.338 Everything had been caught and it was working. And that is such a powerful combination. 00:43:31.818 --> 00:43:35.198 I mean, I mean, there's the stuff I'm doing with these things is really incredible 00:43:35.198 --> 00:43:38.818 from from cutting clips to creating T-shirts. It's really amazing. 00:43:39.278 --> 00:43:42.578 And it's all going each point. You know, I have quality gates where humans have 00:43:42.578 --> 00:43:45.738 to interact and improve things like it's it's really solid. 00:43:46.418 --> 00:43:50.878 And doing such, I can get by on these models that probably by the end of next 00:43:50.878 --> 00:43:52.618 year, I'm going to be running on my own local hardware. 00:43:53.378 --> 00:43:56.918 Yeah, right. You kind of I think it plays to a lot of different strengths in 00:43:56.918 --> 00:44:00.858 that we've seen, you know, some models are good at, quote unquote, 00:44:01.178 --> 00:44:05.158 thinking. and doing complex planning or, you know, debating pros and cons or 00:44:05.158 --> 00:44:06.038 planning architecture. 00:44:06.198 --> 00:44:10.358 And other models are really reliable sort of tool callers and loot creatures. 00:44:10.598 --> 00:44:14.418 Yeah, exactly. Better hands than they are at, you know, actual sky-high architects. 00:44:14.858 --> 00:44:18.258 And so you can leverage both of those things and then helps as well, 00:44:18.338 --> 00:44:21.018 as you say, right, with the token budget of like, you only really need the top 00:44:21.018 --> 00:44:23.618 level of intelligence for certain parts of those tasks. 00:44:23.798 --> 00:44:27.458 And especially in the initial sort of training phase. And then maybe if something 00:44:27.458 --> 00:44:29.458 breaks or, you know, something goes awry or whatever, but. 00:44:29.458 --> 00:44:32.238 Yeah, or you have a big model change and maybe you want to run through it again 00:44:32.238 --> 00:44:36.238 and make sure nothing major changes or API goes from version one to version two. 00:44:36.498 --> 00:44:39.498 And yeah, yeah, do those kinds of updates. So you need a way for some kind of 00:44:39.498 --> 00:44:42.638 lifecycle management. So probably something that's get backed and something 00:44:42.638 --> 00:44:46.038 that has a startup document that tells a new fresh LLM session. 00:44:46.278 --> 00:44:48.378 These are where your skills are at. This is how I deploy them. 00:44:48.478 --> 00:44:52.158 And when you do that, all of my stuff is Nix backed. 00:44:52.478 --> 00:44:55.938 All the skills get deployed via Nix. So if the agent wants to update its skills, 00:44:56.078 --> 00:45:00.298 it has to stage it in the Nix repository first. and then everything is checked in via Git. 00:45:00.438 --> 00:45:03.458 So if a skill goes sideways, if I made a wrong update, I can roll back. 00:45:04.558 --> 00:45:09.198 And nothing goes live into production without going through the Nix process. 00:45:09.578 --> 00:45:13.498 And to me, this is where Hermes really, for just me personally, 00:45:13.598 --> 00:45:16.498 kind of went to the next level over OpenClaw where it felt like I was always 00:45:16.498 --> 00:45:18.038 fighting that with OpenClaw. 00:45:18.378 --> 00:45:22.378 Hermes just leans into the configuration I want. And for others, 00:45:22.438 --> 00:45:25.538 it totally supports other configurations. But for me, this integration was tight. 00:45:25.538 --> 00:45:28.798 I mean, and so what folks might not appreciate is that, 00:45:29.890 --> 00:45:34.550 you have spent a lot of time fighting with nix and open claw and i as have i 00:45:34.550 --> 00:45:36.130 i mean we started jointly maintaining 00:45:36.130 --> 00:45:39.950 a custom package for it we did yeah because like we were just github. 00:45:39.950 --> 00:45:42.950 Actions building stuff for us in the background after each update. 00:45:42.950 --> 00:45:44.450 Yeah and it would like strip any 00:45:44.450 --> 00:45:49.810 non-linux non-x86 part from like the npm packages there was so much like. 00:45:49.810 --> 00:45:52.010 Windows cuda stuff in there and mac os stuff. 00:45:52.010 --> 00:45:56.970 Which did not make sense to download over starlink so it's like with open claw 00:45:56.970 --> 00:46:02.050 it's right It's like an NPM project, and then there is Nix-OpenClaw, 00:46:02.110 --> 00:46:05.610 which is hosted under their org and is, I don't know, semi-official. 00:46:05.750 --> 00:46:09.530 It seemed to be community-done, but recognized as a thing by the project. 00:46:09.730 --> 00:46:13.510 And didn't really seem to follow releases, but more like just snapshots from development. 00:46:13.570 --> 00:46:16.710 So there wasn't like a one-to-one, there's been an OpenClaw release, 00:46:16.730 --> 00:46:19.530 and it doesn't necessarily match to this Nix-OpenClaw release. 00:46:19.690 --> 00:46:20.310 Like, the two are not insane. 00:46:20.350 --> 00:46:24.350 Yes, it was more like, where is Nix-OpenClaw caught up to in the commits from the upstream? 00:46:24.730 --> 00:46:27.810 And so it worked, and it was there, but sometimes there were delays. 00:46:27.810 --> 00:46:29.950 They've been better, it seems, recently, but there was a while, 00:46:30.130 --> 00:46:33.130 especially when we were forced to sort of start our own, that it was taking 00:46:33.130 --> 00:46:34.490 a little while to get updates. 00:46:35.470 --> 00:46:39.210 Versus Hermes, they just have a flaked on Nix right in there. 00:46:39.330 --> 00:46:43.650 They're using UV and the UV to Nix sort of Python integration right there. 00:46:43.870 --> 00:46:47.970 It seems like a well-done thing that is intentional, and that seems like a sign 00:46:47.970 --> 00:46:50.350 of the overall sort of difference between the projects. 00:46:50.530 --> 00:46:53.310 Oh, and it makes my life so much easier. And if it's something I'm running in 00:46:53.310 --> 00:46:59.370 production on that particular system, it just makes sense. A couple other things I like is it has a 2E. 00:46:59.970 --> 00:47:02.710 I know that's silly, but what I found is, 00:47:04.149 --> 00:47:09.069 I can code, or whatever, I can do long sessions in a TUI. 00:47:09.509 --> 00:47:12.729 All day, right? But Telegram, that's for one-shots. 00:47:13.369 --> 00:47:16.749 Telegram's one-shots, and I could not imagine building an application, 00:47:16.889 --> 00:47:19.609 or usually for us, it's some back-end tool via Telegram. 00:47:19.689 --> 00:47:20.989 It's just not the right interface for it. 00:47:21.069 --> 00:47:21.649 I can't do it. 00:47:21.869 --> 00:47:24.809 Especially, like, the bots are good. It's surrounded by distractions, too, right? 00:47:25.369 --> 00:47:26.209 Yeah, yeah. 00:47:26.669 --> 00:47:28.909 Give me a minimal TUI. That's what I want. 00:47:29.849 --> 00:47:32.889 Yeah, people know I'm online, they're chat-chatting with me, and the 00:47:32.889 --> 00:47:35.649 TUI is really good it's really good they've really done 00:47:35.649 --> 00:47:38.529 a good job i mean it's like you know up there with open code 00:47:38.529 --> 00:47:41.249 and codex and the other ones and then brent you 00:47:41.249 --> 00:47:43.909 might like this feature i just started playing with it just to 00:47:43.909 --> 00:47:49.569 talk about it on the show and kind of ended up liking it is it has a built-in 00:47:49.569 --> 00:47:54.889 kanban board for agent orchestration and project management and you what you 00:47:54.889 --> 00:47:58.609 can do is provide it with a spec and then as a spec decomposer and it breaks 00:47:58.609 --> 00:48:01.289 it down into individual steps and builds out a Kanban board. 00:48:01.729 --> 00:48:05.449 Kanban. And then you can watch the Kanban and see like what's in progress, 00:48:05.649 --> 00:48:07.369 what's blocked, what's the next thing. 00:48:07.509 --> 00:48:10.509 You can move things around, add your own, open them up, see the work log, 00:48:10.709 --> 00:48:12.229 add comments, inject comments. 00:48:12.669 --> 00:48:15.929 So it's got boards, tasks, links, workspaces. 00:48:16.449 --> 00:48:20.469 You can assign different agents, different jobs. You can have a default coder 00:48:20.469 --> 00:48:21.949 agent. Mine's called Scotty. 00:48:23.509 --> 00:48:27.649 I think the thing that's most interesting for me here is it's neat how it's 00:48:27.649 --> 00:48:28.889 like it's not just the board. 00:48:29.089 --> 00:48:29.229 Yeah. 00:48:29.329 --> 00:48:33.869 It's sort of the integration with like a work dispatcher to actually run the board. 00:48:34.149 --> 00:48:38.689 Yes. That's the best part. And it's a CLI. It's a database. So you can have 00:48:38.689 --> 00:48:41.809 the agents just use it for their own backend task management, 00:48:41.809 --> 00:48:46.429 and then you just use the dashboard to look at it, or you can interact with 00:48:46.429 --> 00:48:48.329 it and create tasks for them. It's either one. 00:48:48.649 --> 00:48:48.849 I like that. 00:48:48.849 --> 00:48:51.589 It's not just a throwaway thing. It's deeply integrated, and that is nice. 00:48:52.129 --> 00:48:55.749 And because there's a CLI for it, the agents can just, oh, yeah, 00:48:55.769 --> 00:48:58.329 I'll go update that task for you. No problem. So you don't even have to do that part. 00:48:58.749 --> 00:49:00.829 But it is a nice way to manage all of it. 00:49:01.289 --> 00:49:03.829 It's just an example of something they've built. And they've built in several 00:49:03.829 --> 00:49:06.309 things that are just nice to have quality of life stuff. 00:49:07.208 --> 00:49:10.308 And I like it. I like the design. I like the performance. I like the reliability 00:49:10.308 --> 00:49:13.348 so far. We've gone through a couple updates. I like it. 00:49:13.588 --> 00:49:19.248 I do see a really, hmm, fascinating little detail here in their quick install. 00:49:19.428 --> 00:49:23.028 It says, oh, yeah, quick install. You can do it on Linux, macOS, WSL2. 00:49:23.528 --> 00:49:27.308 All of those are expected. And the fourth one here, it says Termux. 00:49:28.028 --> 00:49:31.928 So they're officially supporting running this thing on an Android device. 00:49:32.948 --> 00:49:39.028 I am curious what we can do with that. because I don't know. 00:49:39.248 --> 00:49:39.568 Interesting. 00:49:39.568 --> 00:49:43.208 That just seems crazy and we should do it, you know, we should do the things that you don't have to. 00:49:43.408 --> 00:49:44.988 So that is interesting. 00:49:44.988 --> 00:49:46.688 Maybe we add that to the to-do list. 00:49:47.168 --> 00:49:50.748 I want to just, I'm going to wrap up this with just an anecdote of, 00:49:50.888 --> 00:49:52.788 I think these are more powerful than people realize. 00:49:53.788 --> 00:49:58.848 I actually recently was using my Hermes agent in combination with a tool that 00:49:58.848 --> 00:50:01.408 I think we should talk about in the future called Windows MCP. 00:50:02.128 --> 00:50:07.008 And Windows MCP lets you completely remote control the Windows desktop. 00:50:07.248 --> 00:50:11.228 I mean everything. Resize Windows, click a button, process management, 00:50:11.988 --> 00:50:15.748 everything that you can do through the Windows desktop, you can basically do 00:50:15.748 --> 00:50:16.968 through this Windows MCP. 00:50:17.108 --> 00:50:17.908 So install Linux. 00:50:18.128 --> 00:50:23.948 Well, so what I did is I had my Hermes agent reach in and control a dedicated 00:50:23.948 --> 00:50:26.908 Windows laptop that I set up to run this tool called Forescan, 00:50:27.148 --> 00:50:30.668 which reads proprietary forward air codes from cars. 00:50:31.008 --> 00:50:36.588 And using this, I had the agent live troubleshooting the air codes that were coming in. 00:50:37.208 --> 00:50:40.528 So I would do the button pressing. I'd push on the pedal. I'd turn the key. 00:50:40.688 --> 00:50:44.788 And the agent would tell me when and then it would capture the data, show me the charts. 00:50:45.048 --> 00:50:49.228 And we were able to prove that the computer was sending a signal that we weren't 00:50:49.228 --> 00:50:52.308 sure it was being sent or not. And then we could see when the voltage hit and dropped. 00:50:52.428 --> 00:50:53.068 That's so cool. 00:50:53.348 --> 00:51:00.068 And this is just using a set of tools that I put together like voltmeters, the Windows MCP, 4Scan. 00:51:00.248 --> 00:51:04.968 Oh, and then I obviously, probably worth mentioning, I had a USB to ODB2 dongle. 00:51:06.038 --> 00:51:11.898 And I started looking into this. There are devices you can buy out there that 00:51:11.898 --> 00:51:17.718 are native Linux devices that bring in ODB2 data right into your Linux box. 00:51:17.718 --> 00:51:21.918 And there's pre-existing Python libraries that know how to read and interpret that data. 00:51:22.178 --> 00:51:24.738 It is an unbelievable little world out there. 00:51:26.024 --> 00:51:30.204 It's amazing where you could build a little diagnostic tool set where you hook 00:51:30.204 --> 00:51:33.024 cars up to agents with voltmeters and ODB2 scanners. 00:51:33.344 --> 00:51:36.544 And this is kind of really the test of the harness, right? Because this is the goal. 00:51:37.024 --> 00:51:41.284 These things are more useful, the better you can enrich their context with all 00:51:41.284 --> 00:51:46.764 of this useful information, and then now also have them have the right tools to interact with it. 00:51:46.844 --> 00:51:50.584 And this was an example where the multi-chat system is useful. 00:51:50.784 --> 00:51:52.324 And Hermes supports handoff. 00:51:52.724 --> 00:51:55.904 It also supports a few other things like slash goal, which is becoming really 00:51:55.904 --> 00:52:00.204 popular, but slash handoff is this neat idea because when you launch in the 00:52:00.204 --> 00:52:01.904 TUI, you're generally in your own gateway session. 00:52:02.464 --> 00:52:06.024 That's optional, but that's the default. But when you want to move to Telegram, 00:52:06.204 --> 00:52:07.604 you can do a handoff to Telegram. 00:52:07.884 --> 00:52:12.204 So I set it all up before I go out to the shop, do a handoff to Telegram. 00:52:12.324 --> 00:52:15.064 Then when it's telling me, okay, press the accelerator, that stuff's coming 00:52:15.064 --> 00:52:17.144 on Telegram because I'm out there, I'm in the shop, I'm on my phone. 00:52:17.964 --> 00:52:20.844 And then when it's time to go figure out what to do with the data, 00:52:21.004 --> 00:52:23.664 hand back to the TUI and get down to the research. 00:52:23.664 --> 00:52:26.644 That research, by the way, that gets outsourced to my agent, 00:52:26.784 --> 00:52:29.604 Dax, that goes out and actually does the research with all the APIs and skills 00:52:29.604 --> 00:52:33.084 she has for research, while Laura and I continue to work on the data that we get back. 00:52:33.224 --> 00:52:36.264 And then Dax comes back in another thread with her results. 00:52:36.464 --> 00:52:40.804 And it's just, I don't think people are really fully grokking how far you can take this. 00:52:40.984 --> 00:52:43.344 Like, right now, people are creating, like, fart apps. And, you know, 00:52:43.524 --> 00:52:45.684 remember when iPhones first came out? 00:52:45.864 --> 00:52:45.984 Yeah. 00:52:46.104 --> 00:52:49.784 Everybody made, like, beer apps where you could, like, you drink the beer. 00:52:49.944 --> 00:52:53.464 Like, that's the stage we're at right now with most AI-generated code. 00:52:53.664 --> 00:52:57.664 But when you combine the features of these things with something like an agentic 00:52:57.664 --> 00:53:01.224 harness that allows you to tie into different things like a Linux CLI and an 00:53:01.224 --> 00:53:05.744 MCP, you start stacking some stuff and it starts getting really, really powerful. 00:53:05.744 --> 00:53:09.804 And it feels like Hermes is probably the better platform to build that on, 00:53:09.904 --> 00:53:11.804 for me at least, than OpenClaw. 00:53:12.564 --> 00:53:13.844 At least that's kind of my take, right? 00:53:16.993 --> 00:53:21.073 I just want to take a moment and thank our members. It's very light sponsorship this year. 00:53:21.233 --> 00:53:25.233 We have Nebula, and that's it. So if it wasn't for Determinant Systems and the 00:53:25.233 --> 00:53:28.533 members, we'd be cooked, as the kiddos say. 00:53:28.713 --> 00:53:31.913 But the members, they keep us cooking, which is a good thing. 00:53:32.593 --> 00:53:35.533 LinuxUnplugged.com slash membership or Jupiter.party if you want to support 00:53:35.533 --> 00:53:38.253 all the shows. The high-level features are you keep us going. 00:53:38.673 --> 00:53:42.173 Independent media is a pretty rare thing. The Linux magazines couldn't make it work. 00:53:42.253 --> 00:53:45.173 We're trying to make it work in podcasting. you get an ad-free 00:53:45.173 --> 00:53:48.973 version of the show or the bootleg version bootleg clock in an hour 31 right 00:53:48.973 --> 00:53:52.613 now lots of content in there just a way that we can say thank you give you more 00:53:52.613 --> 00:53:57.193 show as it were and uh you can support us by going to linuxunplugged.com membership 00:53:57.193 --> 00:54:03.113 jupiter.party for that you set it on autopilot or send us a boost support each individual episode. 00:54:05.973 --> 00:54:14.953 As always we've got a couple baller boosters this week and up first turd ferguson with 33,333 sats. 00:54:17.293 --> 00:54:21.913 Did you guys see Greg KH call for more Rust kernel developers? 00:54:22.193 --> 00:54:25.753 Have they built it, that Rust support and no one has come? 00:54:26.093 --> 00:54:30.113 Seems like if it was popular, they'd have the opposite problem they have right now. 00:54:30.433 --> 00:54:36.753 Well, speaking of agentic clipping, we have a clip of Greg KH talking about this from Rust Week. 00:54:37.173 --> 00:54:41.153 I don't know how Greg gets out there. He's a busy guy. And Wes you collected 00:54:41.153 --> 00:54:45.753 something like 15 clips from this yeah, and this happens to be relevant to turds question. 00:54:47.193 --> 00:54:48.573 But we need your help, 00:54:50.753 --> 00:54:55.953 We have a ton of work to do the rest for Linux team as a whole bunch of projects 00:54:55.953 --> 00:54:58.053 They have a great their own, 00:55:00.235 --> 00:55:03.975 Was it WebWord? It's not Zulip. Anyway, there's a good list. 00:55:04.115 --> 00:55:07.595 They have a mailing list. There's a bunch of beginner stuff to get involved in. 00:55:07.775 --> 00:55:11.075 A lot of fix-mes, a lot of stuff. They're doing a really, really good job. 00:55:11.735 --> 00:55:17.595 I need your help. If you want to write some kernel code, please do this stuff. And this is good. 00:55:18.075 --> 00:55:20.835 I don't get the sense that they're desperate for developers. 00:55:21.475 --> 00:55:22.915 That wasn't the sense I got from that clip. 00:55:23.215 --> 00:55:26.455 I got the sense they want more, like they've built it and they would like more to come. 00:55:26.575 --> 00:55:30.015 And I think that in the leadership, there is a hope, right? 00:55:30.015 --> 00:55:34.835 That Rust presents an opportunity to collect more young folk to continue the 00:55:34.835 --> 00:55:37.995 project on and be the next generation of people who will work with it because 00:55:37.995 --> 00:55:39.635 Rust is just a more modern, 00:55:39.875 --> 00:55:44.095 friendly language, and you might use it working for a startup or a tech company 00:55:44.095 --> 00:55:47.775 and then be able to port at least some of that knowledge over to work with the 00:55:47.775 --> 00:55:49.535 kernel in a way that you're just not going to with C. 00:55:49.695 --> 00:55:53.315 I do think it's notable, A, that Greg is being such an advocate for this, 00:55:53.415 --> 00:55:57.075 and B, it's a pretty good presentation. It's technical, but it's a pretty good 00:55:57.075 --> 00:55:59.595 presentation. He kind of just tries to de-escalate the fear around it all. 00:56:00.055 --> 00:56:03.535 Yeah, and there's also good deets about, you know, like they've brought some of the improvements. 00:56:04.215 --> 00:56:07.575 Like if you try to implement something like the Rust API way, 00:56:07.715 --> 00:56:12.495 you can do a similar thing and see and get not the same exact benefits, right? 00:56:12.575 --> 00:56:15.355 But you get safer code out of it, even if you don't get the compiler complaining 00:56:15.355 --> 00:56:16.295 about you if you break it. 00:56:17.035 --> 00:56:20.635 But it can be a good way to organize your thinking. So it's improving it even 00:56:20.635 --> 00:56:23.015 in the parts that aren't Rust yet, which is kind of neat. 00:56:23.235 --> 00:56:27.635 Great. Hybrid sarcasm comes in with 22,222 sats. 00:56:29.055 --> 00:56:34.115 And it just says boost thank you hybrid appreciate the support this week we 00:56:34.115 --> 00:56:37.255 need it boost received thank you very much your. 00:56:37.255 --> 00:56:40.035 Inner child comes in with a row of ducks, 00:56:42.431 --> 00:56:45.611 Not seen last week's baller boost on Fountain. What gives? 00:56:45.991 --> 00:56:49.451 Do you prefer Peep's Watch on Yub Dub or Fountain? 00:56:49.671 --> 00:56:52.671 What are the perks for joining the Jupiter Club for $15 a month? 00:56:52.791 --> 00:56:56.491 And lastly, what would it take to get you guys to come to a show in St. 00:56:56.671 --> 00:56:58.531 Louis in Vance Crow Studio? 00:56:58.671 --> 00:57:02.271 God, I'd love to go to St. Louis. How do I get to these places? 00:57:02.631 --> 00:57:03.731 That is something to crack. 00:57:03.731 --> 00:57:04.551 That's a good question. 00:57:04.651 --> 00:57:05.211 Let's take it in order. 00:57:05.431 --> 00:57:05.811 Good question, Intertile. 00:57:05.811 --> 00:57:09.751 I suppose we probably prefer you listen to it wherever you want, 00:57:09.951 --> 00:57:11.591 really. I don't know if we have a strong preference. 00:57:11.591 --> 00:57:13.431 Yeah, it kind of works what works for you. 00:57:13.671 --> 00:57:16.991 Yeah. Really, that's why we put it as many places as we can. 00:57:17.171 --> 00:57:20.871 I guess a tiny preference to a podcast app. 00:57:21.031 --> 00:57:26.551 Yeah. If that's what gets you using a podcast app over just using YouTube, then do that. 00:57:26.631 --> 00:57:26.911 Yeah, yeah. 00:57:26.991 --> 00:57:28.351 But otherwise, use what you do. 00:57:28.451 --> 00:57:30.291 Wes, it's Yubtub, I think. 00:57:30.291 --> 00:57:31.351 My bad. My bad. 00:57:31.831 --> 00:57:35.511 The Jupiter Party gets you the bootleg versions of all the shows. 00:57:35.711 --> 00:57:39.991 Really, what we're trying to do there is we're just trying to make it feasible to stay independent. 00:57:39.991 --> 00:57:43.811 And so we have a couple of value-for-value options, and that's just been a popularly 00:57:43.811 --> 00:57:50.171 requested one because what we do is not particularly interesting to apparently 00:57:50.171 --> 00:57:51.931 most of the rest of the tech world anymore. 00:57:52.231 --> 00:57:56.871 They all care about AI and the LLM stuff and don't seem to realize it all runs on top of Linux. 00:57:57.471 --> 00:58:01.271 Hello! We're still here, but thankfully the audience still cares. 00:58:01.411 --> 00:58:05.951 And so there's not an audience of sponsors to really make a show for as much 00:58:05.951 --> 00:58:07.911 these days, but there's still an audience of people that care. 00:58:08.431 --> 00:58:11.351 And so it hasn't always worked, but we're giving it our best. 00:58:11.471 --> 00:58:15.651 And so the Jupiter Party sort of finances, if you like multiple shows, there you go. 00:58:15.811 --> 00:58:17.131 It's covering multiple shows where 00:58:17.131 --> 00:58:19.531 we have just the membership for Linux Unplugged, if that's just your bag. 00:58:20.151 --> 00:58:23.491 And lastly, yes, we would love to come to St. Louis. How we ever make that happen, 00:58:23.531 --> 00:58:25.991 I don't know. Brent can't keep his van on the road. 00:58:26.131 --> 00:58:28.971 Yeah, once we get that fixed, then maybe we need to figure out some sort of 00:58:28.971 --> 00:58:30.251 race there, a reason to race. 00:58:30.391 --> 00:58:33.711 Yeah, that'll get us going. That'll get us going. I like where your head's at. 00:58:33.731 --> 00:58:35.451 My new souped-up van to compete against. 00:58:36.051 --> 00:58:39.651 The West Wayne. West, West, West, we got to come up with something. 00:58:41.114 --> 00:58:44.494 The pain. No, we got nothing. We got to get it. Like, bang bus. 00:58:44.694 --> 00:58:47.234 Man, I think with that name, it just had to happen. 00:58:47.394 --> 00:58:52.814 You know, I'm noticing Wes doesn't have a rig. So this might be the year of the Wes rig. 00:58:52.954 --> 00:58:56.914 We need a name. If we had a great name for, like, a Wes something. 00:58:57.414 --> 00:58:59.634 It's just that private train cars are very expensive. 00:59:00.354 --> 00:59:02.474 Yeah, that would be. The pain train would be. 00:59:02.474 --> 00:59:03.454 The pain train. 00:59:05.634 --> 00:59:06.634 That's so perfect. 00:59:07.334 --> 00:59:11.474 Could we get away with calling a van the pain train? because I feel like that would also... 00:59:11.474 --> 00:59:12.714 We'll do like a train wrap. 00:59:12.994 --> 00:59:14.214 Yeah, right, a train wrap, yeah. 00:59:14.334 --> 00:59:19.934 Choo-choo. Well, the dude is abiding again this week with 19,000 sets. 00:59:25.414 --> 00:59:29.874 Well, I wanted to note that I appreciate your takes on the latest AI news. 00:59:30.114 --> 00:59:34.714 I deployed Hermes to a VM with my Proxmox node and started playing with it. 00:59:34.874 --> 00:59:39.734 Currently using the OpenCodeGo subscription, I picked Quen 3.6+, 00:59:39.734 --> 00:59:43.834 which was $5 for the first month just to get the hang of it. 00:59:43.934 --> 00:59:49.854 I set it up with Telegram. It's kind of surreal to ask your bot questions and see the reply. 00:59:50.274 --> 00:59:53.734 I'm curious, what models or subscriptions do you guys use? 00:59:53.914 --> 00:59:59.754 And also how much, quote, power you give them to perform tasks on your behalf. Cheers. 01:00:00.474 --> 01:00:04.414 I'll start. I'll start with the answer. I'll say this. 01:00:05.134 --> 01:00:10.354 I have really liked Minimax. And so I broke down and I bought their yearly sub 01:00:10.354 --> 01:00:12.314 while they had it on sale back in like April. 01:00:14.154 --> 01:00:17.614 So I'm so maxed out on tokens. Like I have so many tokens through Minimax. 01:00:17.714 --> 01:00:19.574 It's been wonderful not to worry about that. 01:00:19.714 --> 01:00:25.294 And then I kind of use the Zen platform or open router as kind of like when 01:00:25.294 --> 01:00:28.934 I need a hit of one of the larger models. And that's worked pretty well for me. 01:00:30.434 --> 01:00:35.814 I do think that what I'm about to say is going to get me a little bit in trouble. 01:00:36.234 --> 01:00:37.554 But I'm just going to admit to it, 01:00:38.450 --> 01:00:41.890 I set them up on their own dedicated hardware for a reason. They have their 01:00:41.890 --> 01:00:44.150 own dedicated OS with his own dedicated Git repo. 01:00:45.690 --> 01:00:49.950 So I don't really see the point to restricting the crap out of them. 01:00:50.050 --> 01:00:53.470 And I don't really give them access to public chats. 01:00:53.930 --> 01:00:58.250 I don't really use, like, I don't just go spelunking through random emails with them. 01:00:58.470 --> 01:01:02.350 So I'm the only person they really talk to except for me and the wife. 01:01:02.390 --> 01:01:06.290 It seems like a pretty safe set. So I give them full YOLO mode, 01:01:06.430 --> 01:01:10.210 which I constantly have to argue with them about because all of these things 01:01:10.210 --> 01:01:12.010 want to be excessively safe by default. 01:01:12.290 --> 01:01:16.090 All these people that are worried, like, trust me, they're obnoxiously safe. 01:01:16.210 --> 01:01:19.970 They're obnoxiously safe. And, like, I have to constantly explain to them this 01:01:19.970 --> 01:01:23.050 is dedicated hardware. This is a purpose-built install. 01:01:23.450 --> 01:01:27.710 The entire reason is, like, this thing is supposed to manage this entire box. And I do. 01:01:27.770 --> 01:01:32.570 I want them to manage the entire box. I want them to update the services, update the OS, all of it. 01:01:32.570 --> 01:01:36.810 Install new stuff all of it so if there's a YOLO mode I'm using it for the most 01:01:36.810 --> 01:01:41.850 case on my Hermes system I sometimes go a little more careful um if I'm say 01:01:41.850 --> 01:01:46.510 on an Ubuntu box or Fedora box or a Mac which I haven't really done but I would be a lot more. 01:01:46.510 --> 01:01:48.890 Careful like any box that doesn't have roll back by default. 01:01:48.890 --> 01:01:52.530 Basically yeah or declarative configuration that would break obviously like 01:01:52.530 --> 01:01:55.330 that's there because Nix OS has 01:01:55.330 --> 01:02:00.950 those breaks in there I get to be a little bit more YOLO on the AI side. 01:02:01.150 --> 01:02:04.870 But if I'm using, I have seen it go sideways on an Ubuntu box specifically. 01:02:04.870 --> 01:02:06.330 You've got to be careful there and stuff like, 01:02:06.999 --> 01:02:12.359 But I go full blast. If there's a dash dash YOLO, I'm doing it. What about you, Wes? 01:02:12.519 --> 01:02:17.399 Yeah, I mean, I think it kind of depends on, I agree, I also am running it on its own VM. 01:02:17.899 --> 01:02:21.459 So it has root in its own box. That part I don't mind. 01:02:22.159 --> 01:02:25.799 I think it just kind of depends on what tools you connect it to, right? 01:02:25.859 --> 01:02:29.759 Like what passwords are, what keys does it have for what things, 01:02:29.979 --> 01:02:32.039 what MCP tools do you connect in? 01:02:32.039 --> 01:02:36.639 I also think this is an argument why MCPs are still valid in the age of OpenClaw 01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:44.699 and these agents is because MCPs give you a place to kind of have control over what the agent can do. 01:02:44.839 --> 01:02:47.859 And that seems like the proper place to bake that in because that's going to 01:02:47.859 --> 01:02:51.639 be more agent agnostic and more setup agnostic and system agnostic. 01:02:51.899 --> 01:02:55.459 So I still think MCPs play a real good role here in controlling what the agent 01:02:55.459 --> 01:02:56.379 actually can and can't do. 01:02:56.499 --> 01:03:00.139 If the only way it can talk to X thing over here is it has to take a snapshot 01:03:00.139 --> 01:03:02.839 first and then do the change and that's just sort of baked into the command 01:03:02.839 --> 01:03:06.799 or it only has read-only access, then you just kind of have a limit on what 01:03:06.799 --> 01:03:07.999 it can possibly screw up. 01:03:08.099 --> 01:03:12.039 And this is also where, if you do want to go the CLI route for some of these 01:03:12.039 --> 01:03:16.539 tools, you know, it's not a lot of work to just have the agent create a safe 01:03:16.539 --> 01:03:21.539 wrapper where it does things read only by default. And so it isn't calling the actual CLI tool. 01:03:21.659 --> 01:03:25.159 It's calling a wrapper that calls the tool. And that wrapper has some safeties built into it. 01:03:25.279 --> 01:03:27.919 Of course, NixOS makes that very easy, but you can do that on any system. 01:03:27.999 --> 01:03:31.839 Yes, yes. So that's just another way where, so it's not like I'm just totally 01:03:31.839 --> 01:03:36.759 crazy with it, But with these different pieces combined, I am able to have the 01:03:36.759 --> 01:03:38.879 agent have complete control over the infrastructure. 01:03:39.539 --> 01:03:42.339 But you do have to be careful when it comes to a security standpoint and all 01:03:42.339 --> 01:03:44.639 of that. You want to make sure that things lock down and not hanging out in 01:03:44.639 --> 01:03:46.719 like public chats and things like that. 01:03:46.859 --> 01:03:48.979 And there's a lot of different ways to rig it. So it kind of depends on your 01:03:48.979 --> 01:03:51.059 own how you like to run things, right? 01:03:51.159 --> 01:03:54.779 Like it can just be a thing that lives in your sort of CI automation pipelines 01:03:54.779 --> 01:03:58.539 or it can be a personal assistant that's talking to you on Telegram or anything in between. 01:03:58.539 --> 01:04:02.439 And by default, the way Hermes came out of the box was it was, 01:04:02.519 --> 01:04:04.659 you know, for stuff that was going to need a CLI system command, 01:04:04.859 --> 01:04:07.499 it's just going to ask me. And I could do allow once, allow always. 01:04:08.527 --> 01:04:11.567 You know, so for the first 30 or 40 times I do some, you know, 01:04:11.687 --> 01:04:13.727 whatever, it's going to ask me and I'll just say allow a bunch of times. 01:04:13.847 --> 01:04:16.747 And it would, in theory, eventually build out a whitelist that it's allowed 01:04:16.747 --> 01:04:17.927 to do and it would be fine. 01:04:18.547 --> 01:04:21.647 It also, it's just, it's funny how much of this stuff, like a lot of the open 01:04:21.647 --> 01:04:23.547 source and sort of infrastructure is code. 01:04:23.687 --> 01:04:28.427 And just a lot of the principles that folks in our space talk about really do pay dividends. 01:04:28.567 --> 01:04:30.947 And another of those is like, if you have a nice mesh network setup, 01:04:31.087 --> 01:04:31.747 then it's another way, right? 01:04:31.807 --> 01:04:35.307 Like you can kind of have, give it its own identity on the mesh and then use 01:04:35.307 --> 01:04:38.167 sort of the mesh firewalls or other firewall systems and ACLs. 01:04:38.167 --> 01:04:40.087 To control what it has access to that way, too. 01:04:40.247 --> 01:04:46.707 And I have to say Nebula is so good for this because the agents can stand up 01:04:46.707 --> 01:04:48.647 the entire Nebula network on their own. 01:04:48.927 --> 01:04:54.647 If you have the magic of SSH, just the agents will stand up the entire network. 01:04:54.847 --> 01:04:59.927 And there's no API key you have to go beg for. There's no Google sign-in you have to do. 01:05:00.267 --> 01:05:07.147 From zero, from prompt, they can stand up a secure mesh network without any 01:05:07.147 --> 01:05:08.707 other company's permission or involvement. 01:05:08.747 --> 01:05:11.027 It's so effing powerful. 01:05:11.587 --> 01:05:16.207 This is so, I'm using this for my home assistants that are on separate networks, 01:05:16.227 --> 01:05:19.547 but I want to have a, when you have three different home assistants, 01:05:19.707 --> 01:05:21.427 you inevitably want one dashboard, right? 01:05:21.587 --> 01:05:24.527 You want to be able to control all of the different stuff from one screen, 01:05:24.587 --> 01:05:28.327 because one's for the chicken coop, one's for the RV, and one's for the studio, 01:05:28.507 --> 01:05:30.827 right? I'm not some crazy baller, it's just I got chickens. 01:05:31.167 --> 01:05:35.327 Now I got three of these things, and I want one dashboard with the buttons for 01:05:35.327 --> 01:05:37.647 the lights and the crap and the stuff that I do all the time. 01:05:37.667 --> 01:05:41.507 I don't want to have to load up three different home assistance systems. Well, guess what? 01:05:41.787 --> 01:05:44.227 They're all on three different networks, but Nebula, boop, boop, 01:05:44.347 --> 01:05:47.027 boop, boop, ties it all together so simply, builds it out so quick. 01:05:47.587 --> 01:05:49.207 It's really great. Anyways, it's just... 01:05:50.146 --> 01:05:54.606 I think there's so much advantage if you can build the right harness and apparatus 01:05:54.606 --> 01:05:56.726 around it so you can give them some power. 01:05:57.146 --> 01:06:00.106 What they can do for you is save you a crap ton of time. 01:06:00.446 --> 01:06:05.566 And it lets me enjoy infrastructure and free software projects that I was starting to run out of time for. 01:06:05.826 --> 01:06:09.446 You know, just as my kids have gotten older, life off air has gotten busier 01:06:09.446 --> 01:06:13.586 and busier. And some of the cool stuff I was able to build on and do before I don't have time for. 01:06:13.986 --> 01:06:17.046 But I can keep up. I can keep them managed. I can keep them secure. 01:06:17.046 --> 01:06:21.366 They're not going to sit there and rot and just, you know, like one of the biggest 01:06:21.366 --> 01:06:24.426 issues with home labs is they can just sit there and kind of just fall apart 01:06:24.426 --> 01:06:27.806 and have issues and get out of date and things break over time and your backups 01:06:27.806 --> 01:06:30.406 fail and it can just become a huge source of stress. 01:06:30.646 --> 01:06:32.586 Like these agents, they're, man, they're keeping on top of it. 01:06:32.686 --> 01:06:35.466 They're telling me when my freaking NVMe hard drive temperatures are too high 01:06:35.466 --> 01:06:39.306 in one particular rig and when this backup failed and all of it. It's so powerful. 01:06:39.646 --> 01:06:43.366 So it's worth giving them the leash, but just be careful. 01:06:43.546 --> 01:06:47.726 All right. I know. I know. I went on for too long. But I think it's pretty exciting. 01:06:48.086 --> 01:06:51.486 And also, we don't have a lot of boosts. That's it. Thank you, 01:06:51.566 --> 01:06:52.526 everybody who streams that. 01:06:52.766 --> 01:06:54.226 I want to pull one forward, actually. 01:06:54.386 --> 01:06:55.586 Oh, yeah, do it. If you don't mind. Let's do it. 01:06:55.626 --> 01:07:02.726 There's one here sticking out to me. Rubik Man boosted in 1,488 sats. Thank you. 01:07:03.006 --> 01:07:03.766 Mm-hmm. 01:07:05.306 --> 01:07:12.306 And it says, I'm confused. Are you pronouncing jif or gif like Jeff or geoff? 01:07:13.706 --> 01:07:14.406 What's with that? 01:07:14.406 --> 01:07:16.686 What's confusing it's an animated 01:07:16.686 --> 01:07:19.926 Jeff everybody knows that yeah I thought we settled this years ago. 01:07:20.506 --> 01:07:23.966 There's an episode somewhere that goes into detail about this I don't remember 01:07:23.966 --> 01:07:25.546 which you'll have to listen to the. 01:07:25.546 --> 01:07:26.026 Back catalog. 01:07:26.026 --> 01:07:27.066 But thanks Jeff. 01:07:27.066 --> 01:07:29.466 It depends on the program you use to save it. 01:07:29.466 --> 01:07:31.486 That's true yeah some prefer the. 01:07:31.486 --> 01:07:38.566 Yeah thank you to our SAT streamers came in with 18 of you stacking 21,017 SATs, 01:07:41.843 --> 01:07:45.363 Not too bad. Not too bad at all. Thank you very much. When you combine that 01:07:45.363 --> 01:07:49.423 with our boosters who boosted last week's episode and a couple of you that came 01:07:49.423 --> 01:07:53.963 in at the last minute today, we squeaked just over 100,000 sats. 01:07:54.103 --> 01:08:00.423 Not a big banger, but I'm still pretty happy. 101,023 sats. 01:08:00.503 --> 01:08:03.983 We definitely could definitely use to see the support pickup just because the 01:08:03.983 --> 01:08:05.103 sponsorships are so low. 01:08:05.283 --> 01:08:08.763 So this is part of what is keeping the show going. And you can boost with something 01:08:08.763 --> 01:08:12.223 like Fountain FM. If you're on iOS, you should definitely check out Cast-O-Matic. 01:08:12.483 --> 01:08:16.623 And AlbiHub just keeps going from strength to strength. I just updated the latest AlbiHub. 01:08:17.783 --> 01:08:20.343 It's so impressive. And then you can connect to a whole plethora of apps. 01:08:20.463 --> 01:08:22.803 Get started at newpodcastapps.com. 01:08:23.023 --> 01:08:28.963 And thank you, everybody, who boosted episode 668. We really do appreciate you. 01:08:32.542 --> 01:08:37.102 I'm going to start with a pick this week. I have a soft spot for a program back 01:08:37.102 --> 01:08:38.382 in the day called Norton Commander. 01:08:38.622 --> 01:08:42.762 Before we'd really settled on the Windows 3 desktop and the macOS desktop paradigm, 01:08:43.082 --> 01:08:47.882 there were people that were trying to make file managers and graphical interfaces for DOS. 01:08:48.462 --> 01:08:55.142 Like maybe the OG2E, if you will. And GNOME Commander is a Norton Commander-inspired file manager. 01:08:55.722 --> 01:09:00.082 It was written in C++. It's recently been rewritten largely in Rust as they 01:09:00.082 --> 01:09:02.382 moved over to GTK4. I know. Surprise, surprise. 01:09:03.942 --> 01:09:07.162 Is gnome commander 2.0 also adds embedded terminal 01:09:07.162 --> 01:09:11.122 to display output which is nice that is nice improvements in the search dialogue 01:09:11.122 --> 01:09:14.622 the internal viewer has been improved accessibility has seen some improvements 01:09:14.622 --> 01:09:19.102 keyboard shortcuts dialogue is there now and you're gonna like this one brent 01:09:19.102 --> 01:09:25.722 more tab states are restored on restart so now you can over tab on your file manager. 01:09:25.722 --> 01:09:26.282 So it's not. 01:09:26.282 --> 01:09:27.102 All though it's just. 01:09:27.102 --> 01:09:30.302 More yeah yeah i need them all chris. 01:09:30.302 --> 01:09:33.342 Well i mean there are limits you know 01:09:33.342 --> 01:09:36.462 there are limits why this thing still looks like a classic app 01:09:36.462 --> 01:09:40.982 he sure does you know it reminds me also of midnight commander it's two panes 01:09:40.982 --> 01:09:45.802 i just love it you know when you can have one pain have two as they say so no 01:09:45.802 --> 01:09:52.742 go commander is a twin panel graphical fire manager and um gpl3 so that's that 01:09:52.742 --> 01:09:56.262 I just had to start with that because of the nostalgia. I like the feels. 01:09:56.762 --> 01:10:02.542 Well, while you're pretending that the terminal doesn't exist with your graphical thing over here. 01:10:02.622 --> 01:10:03.102 As I do. 01:10:03.642 --> 01:10:06.222 I brought the graphics to the terminal. 01:10:06.442 --> 01:10:06.682 Oh. 01:10:06.962 --> 01:10:07.082 Yeah. 01:10:07.282 --> 01:10:07.582 Oh. 01:10:07.882 --> 01:10:09.562 Yeah, try out Halo. 01:10:09.802 --> 01:10:10.962 Flipping the script on us here, Wes. 01:10:11.142 --> 01:10:15.842 Terminal flow field screensaver with Perlin noise, braille rendering particles, 01:10:16.022 --> 01:10:17.962 and 24-bit handsy color. 01:10:18.162 --> 01:10:19.702 Oh, you had me at screensaver. 01:10:21.053 --> 01:10:22.833 Yeah, here's your TUI screensaver. 01:10:23.753 --> 01:10:28.573 I have a real soft spot for screensavers. I was big into the X11 screensavers 01:10:28.573 --> 01:10:32.753 back when they were around on the proprietary platforms. I loved After Dark. 01:10:33.373 --> 01:10:36.853 I just love screensavers. And we've moved away from them. 01:10:36.973 --> 01:10:41.053 Yeah, it's already got a couple different preset themes in there, right? So you got that. 01:10:41.373 --> 01:10:44.873 Ironically, when we had these big old boob tube CRTs that were probably burning 01:10:44.873 --> 01:10:48.633 200 watts constantly, we left them running all the time with screensavers. 01:10:48.653 --> 01:10:49.033 Yes, we did. 01:10:49.033 --> 01:10:52.653 Now we get these LCD screens that pull five watts, then we turn them off all the time. 01:10:52.853 --> 01:10:58.973 Well, we have live terminal resize handling. And, yes, don't worry. 01:10:59.353 --> 01:11:02.133 We have native Windows terminal support. 01:11:02.413 --> 01:11:06.393 Yeah. They do recommend you use Kitty or Ghost DTY or iTerm if you're on the 01:11:06.393 --> 01:11:08.253 Mac or something that's got, you know, lack of a... 01:11:08.253 --> 01:11:10.333 You do want, like, a nice, yeah, graphics-y terminal. 01:11:10.533 --> 01:11:13.833 You know where this would be great is if anybody out there has a screen in the 01:11:13.833 --> 01:11:18.473 background of your, like, Zoom work calls. If you're like a work from home, 01:11:18.693 --> 01:11:21.953 you combine this with Hollywood behind you, you're going to look, 01:11:22.273 --> 01:11:23.873 yeah. You know what, Brent? 01:11:23.913 --> 01:11:27.113 I have a blank one behind me that seems just perfect with this. 01:11:27.253 --> 01:11:30.753 That thing is the very first monitor I ever got. It's like almost square. 01:11:31.093 --> 01:11:34.993 It's terrible for anything but exactly this. So thank you, Wes. 01:11:35.873 --> 01:11:37.633 You guys remember the Hollywood package too. 01:11:37.733 --> 01:11:37.773 Right? 01:11:37.773 --> 01:11:38.893 Oh, of course. Oh, yeah. 01:11:39.593 --> 01:11:42.933 Oh, good one. Go look that up out there. I know there's a Snap available, but still. 01:11:43.133 --> 01:11:44.413 I have a question on this one. 01:11:44.573 --> 01:11:45.393 I think there's other packages too. Yeah. 01:11:46.113 --> 01:11:50.693 Where's Halo? How did you find something like this? Because this project is three days old. 01:11:51.413 --> 01:11:53.973 How did you find this? Were you trolling somewhere? 01:11:54.293 --> 01:11:56.433 Can I see? This is just in console. 01:11:56.833 --> 01:11:59.253 I do like it a lot. Here, hold that. Can I see it? Hold that up again. 01:11:59.913 --> 01:12:02.793 So it's like worms going across the screen, kind of. 01:12:02.853 --> 01:12:03.093 Mm-hmm. 01:12:04.253 --> 01:12:07.013 All right. All right. That's neat. 01:12:08.333 --> 01:12:10.613 You can run it with just a UVX if you want. 01:12:10.613 --> 01:12:11.853 How the heck did you find it? I mean... 01:12:12.473 --> 01:12:13.093 Trolling GitHub. 01:12:13.313 --> 01:12:16.153 Oh, yeah. He does that. I've been noticing... 01:12:16.153 --> 01:12:18.933 You see, the trick is you follow people who write cool stuff. 01:12:19.073 --> 01:12:19.553 Yeah, you've been... 01:12:19.553 --> 01:12:21.013 And then you hope that they write more cool stuff. 01:12:21.013 --> 01:12:22.253 He's been upping his links with this. 01:12:22.433 --> 01:12:22.773 It's like... 01:12:22.773 --> 01:12:26.873 Your linkage is going up. I get a report from the agent, and I can see the uptick 01:12:26.873 --> 01:12:29.673 in the linkage because you found a good vein of stuff recently. 01:12:30.153 --> 01:12:33.093 You know, that's the difference between Wes and I. I don't think to use GitHub 01:12:33.093 --> 01:12:34.273 as a social media platform. 01:12:35.855 --> 01:12:39.575 He's kind of using it as a data source, too. You should just watch it. 01:12:39.615 --> 01:12:40.315 It'd be nice to automate it more. 01:12:40.535 --> 01:12:45.275 Yeah, you never know. You never know. All right, we will put links to Halo and, 01:12:45.435 --> 01:12:47.175 of course, to GNOME Commander, 01:12:47.675 --> 01:12:53.855 in the show notes over at linuxunplugged.com slash 668 or check out jupyterbroadcasting.com 01:12:53.855 --> 01:12:56.675 where you got Linux Unplugged and the launch and This Week in Bitcoin. 01:12:57.475 --> 01:12:59.915 And you can always call the launch as well. 01:13:00.775 --> 01:13:04.255 Call us and chat with us. It's kind of fun. Anything else we should cover before we run, boys? 01:13:05.555 --> 01:13:08.655 No although just a reminder we want uh people's bitwarden 01:13:08.655 --> 01:13:11.295 password migration stories or what you're using in place of 01:13:11.295 --> 01:13:13.975 bitwarden and does it sync because that's what 01:13:13.975 --> 01:13:19.235 got me that's what effing got me is i just i'm so frustrated because it got 01:13:19.235 --> 01:13:21.935 me and i knew this i knew this was going to happen i had a whole plant for platform 01:13:21.935 --> 01:13:25.155 rant i was going to get into we're running out of time uh they got me and i 01:13:25.155 --> 01:13:28.935 knew it was going to go this way and i they got me for the sync because i just 01:13:28.935 --> 01:13:31.875 want bulletproof never think about it I save. 01:13:31.875 --> 01:13:33.335 My password I have it elsewhere. 01:13:33.335 --> 01:13:37.835 And I want it to work but also the mobile has to be like first class because 01:13:37.835 --> 01:13:42.035 if I create an account on the mob's I gotta capture the mob so I can log in 01:13:42.035 --> 01:13:44.755 on the desktops later it's gotta work, 01:13:45.615 --> 01:13:48.895 help us people and then maybe we can come up with a solid solution that everybody 01:13:48.895 --> 01:13:53.455 trusts in our community it's something we can recommend to the wider audience so I will also say maybe. 01:13:53.455 --> 01:13:57.575 Consider boosting in if you have experience with making a Linux router. 01:13:58.135 --> 01:14:03.115 Oh, that was a request that we still need more input on. Let me tell you what. 01:14:03.535 --> 01:14:06.475 Let me tell you what. All right, Wes Pano, is there anything else we should 01:14:06.475 --> 01:14:09.835 let people know about this here podcast? Like maybe extra metadata around the 01:14:09.835 --> 01:14:11.395 show, something like that. You got anything? 01:14:11.795 --> 01:14:17.415 Yeah. Well, you know, we make the bots work hard to produce diarized transcripts 01:14:17.415 --> 01:14:21.775 so you can have as much possible metadata about exactly what we said with the 01:14:21.775 --> 01:14:24.735 addition of some comic slop misspellings occasionally. 01:14:26.095 --> 01:14:28.975 Also we've got json chapters as well as those are. 01:14:28.975 --> 01:14:30.935 Entirely handcrafted by editor drew. 01:14:30.935 --> 01:14:35.095 That's right as well as chapters we try to embed into the id3 file so whichever 01:14:35.095 --> 01:14:39.415 works best for you we try to make it available and of course we are live you know that. 01:14:42.857 --> 01:14:45.897 Yeah, that's right. We make it a Tuesday on a Sunday at 10 a.m. 01:14:46.017 --> 01:14:49.957 Pacific, 1 p.m. Eastern over at jblive.tv and jblive.fm. 01:14:50.317 --> 01:14:53.837 Also sometimes up there on the tubes. And of course, we record all of it and 01:14:53.837 --> 01:14:57.357 more for our members, for our Jupiter Party and our Unplugged core. 01:14:57.777 --> 01:15:00.777 Thank you, everybody, for tuning in. Go check out the Unplugged.com website, 01:15:00.857 --> 01:15:02.237 linuxunplugged.com, for past 01:15:02.237 --> 01:15:04.557 episodes, this episode, and links to everything we talked about as well. 01:15:04.637 --> 01:15:08.497 Subscribe links, our mumble room, our chat room. there's a lot going on around 01:15:08.497 --> 01:15:11.337 this show that doesn't make it on air every single week but you'll find links 01:15:11.337 --> 01:15:14.277 to it over at linuxunplugged.com thanks so much for joining us on this week's 01:15:14.277 --> 01:15:17.997 episode of your Unplugged program and we're going to see you right back here 01:15:17.997 --> 01:15:21.957 as in Tuesday and you know what that means we'll see you back here next Sunday. 01:16:20.837 --> 01:16:26.317 Okay, I have a request. You mentioned you didn't have time in the show for your 01:16:26.317 --> 01:16:27.977 rant, but you have plenty of time here.