WEBVTT 00:00:11.333 --> 00:00:16.193 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:16.513 --> 00:00:17.533 My name is Wes. 00:00:17.753 --> 00:00:18.473 And my name is Brent. 00:00:19.033 --> 00:00:24.293 Hello, gentlemen. Coming up on this episode, it's time for a GitHub diet. 00:00:24.513 --> 00:00:28.253 We'll get into the tools helping us cut back. But first, our favorite features 00:00:28.253 --> 00:00:31.193 in Linux 7.0, and then we'll round the show out with some great boosts, 00:00:31.473 --> 00:00:33.193 some picks, and a lot more. 00:00:33.313 --> 00:00:37.213 So before we get into all of that, let's say time-appropriate greetings to our 00:00:37.213 --> 00:00:39.133 virtual lug. Hello, mumble room. 00:00:39.773 --> 00:00:42.553 Hello. Hey, Chris. Hello, Brent. 00:00:42.833 --> 00:00:45.533 Hey, guys. Hello, all of you up there and quiet listening, too. 00:00:46.353 --> 00:00:47.273 What a crew we got. 00:00:47.473 --> 00:00:50.633 Thanks for being here. Of course, you can join our Mumble Room every Sunday. 00:00:51.453 --> 00:00:54.033 Details are on our website, and we'd love it if you join us. 00:00:54.133 --> 00:00:56.393 It's pretty great. And look at all these years, Mumble's still here. 00:00:57.033 --> 00:01:00.833 Show going strong for like 12-plus years, almost 13 years. Mumble Room's still 00:01:00.833 --> 00:01:02.233 here with us the whole way. 00:01:03.133 --> 00:01:06.533 Speaking of being with us, go check out Define.net slash Unplugged. 00:01:06.653 --> 00:01:10.973 Go meet Manage Nebula from Define Networking. 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You go to Define.net slash unplugged. 00:01:39.833 --> 00:01:44.533 Nothing else offers Nebula's level of resilience, speed, and scalability. 00:01:44.753 --> 00:01:47.913 Get started with 100 hosts, absolutely free, no credit card required. 00:01:48.113 --> 00:01:52.073 Visit Define.net slash unplugged. Go redefine your VPN experience. 00:01:52.253 --> 00:01:57.213 IOS and Android apps recently updated. Thank you to Define.net slash unplugged. 00:01:57.273 --> 00:01:58.153 Thank you to everybody who supports 00:01:58.153 --> 00:02:02.573 the show by going to Define.net slash unplugged. We do appreciate it. 00:02:05.133 --> 00:02:08.813 LinuxFest Northwest 2026, just a few days away. 00:02:09.173 --> 00:02:14.753 13 days away. April 24th to the 26th at the Bellingham Technical College. 00:02:15.653 --> 00:02:20.373 Oh, boy. And the calendar is live. The unplugged program is currently scheduled 00:02:20.373 --> 00:02:24.133 to be in HC108, which I think is that big classroom we did that one year. 00:02:24.673 --> 00:02:25.033 Hmm. 00:02:25.413 --> 00:02:29.233 I don't know, boys. We got to give that some thought. 00:02:29.653 --> 00:02:31.053 Yeah, you seem really unsure over there. 00:02:31.333 --> 00:02:36.033 Yeah, the vibe just hasn't been right in the classrooms. We're not professors giving a lecture. 00:02:36.233 --> 00:02:38.913 I thought all the construction the last couple of years in those sections we 00:02:38.913 --> 00:02:44.153 couldn't use was to build us like a brand new studio with an audience section in it. 00:02:44.233 --> 00:02:45.913 Right, of course. That's what they'd spend their money on. 00:02:46.073 --> 00:02:48.813 The first year we did a classroom was better than the second. 00:02:49.153 --> 00:02:50.173 Yeah, I agree. 00:02:50.593 --> 00:02:53.653 So there is some variable, but you're right. But one way or another, 00:02:53.653 --> 00:02:54.693 we had to make a show, right? 00:02:54.693 --> 00:02:56.853 We'll make a show. One way or another. We'd love it if you want to join us. 00:02:57.413 --> 00:03:00.573 You can get the details at linuxfestnorthwest.org. 00:03:01.033 --> 00:03:03.873 I don't know. I think it may be Joops isn't going to make it this year. 00:03:04.013 --> 00:03:05.633 I got baby chicks at home now. 00:03:06.373 --> 00:03:08.733 So maybe have you considered bringing the entire farm? 00:03:08.953 --> 00:03:12.313 I think we bring the van. The van goes to Joops. Yeah. 00:03:12.413 --> 00:03:17.193 The van will go to Joops instead. And the van will a hundred percent be there. Whether I am or not. 00:03:17.373 --> 00:03:17.533 Joops junior. 00:03:18.353 --> 00:03:22.353 All right. I have a question for the audience before we get into today's topics. Two things really. 00:03:22.813 --> 00:03:27.293 Number one, your question. Uh, I may become obvious why, but I'd like to know 00:03:27.293 --> 00:03:31.913 if your password manager disappeared tomorrow, which one would you switch to? 00:03:32.113 --> 00:03:35.533 Boost in and tell us if your password manager disappeared tomorrow which would 00:03:35.533 --> 00:03:37.973 you switch to? Alright? That's number one. Number two. 00:03:39.993 --> 00:03:47.833 The Elephant in the Room episode 666 is coming up and we have a new challenge. 00:03:48.133 --> 00:03:55.513 To celebrate episode 666 of the Unplugged program we are announcing the BSD challenge! 00:03:59.804 --> 00:04:03.284 And it's early days, so you have a chance to get in and help us form what we're 00:04:03.284 --> 00:04:06.664 going to do because obviously this is episode 662, so we have a few weeks. 00:04:07.124 --> 00:04:12.804 It's not a Linux versus BSD thing. It's can Linux users function on BSD. 00:04:13.804 --> 00:04:16.064 One fresh B install, four levels 00:04:16.064 --> 00:04:20.524 to climb, and hopefully your Linux muscle memory only gets you so far. 00:04:20.724 --> 00:04:23.284 This is what I have so far, and this is all subject to change, 00:04:23.304 --> 00:04:24.624 and I'd love the audience's input. 00:04:24.924 --> 00:04:28.424 I think we should have four levels to achieve. Level one is can you just get 00:04:28.424 --> 00:04:31.124 a usable system. Level two is can you get a daily driver? 00:04:31.504 --> 00:04:36.564 Level three is a power user. So can you do things like update packages, 00:04:36.824 --> 00:04:39.564 update the OS, set up SSH, restart and stop services? 00:04:39.784 --> 00:04:42.724 And then level four, and I think this is maybe where we have some debate. 00:04:43.404 --> 00:04:47.224 I was going to say get jails or containers working, but I think Wes and Brent 00:04:47.224 --> 00:04:49.864 think level four should be something more challenging. 00:04:50.484 --> 00:04:54.364 And then we have a scoring system. But that's the rough outline that we'll get into more. 00:04:54.484 --> 00:04:59.924 But let's settle this level four stuff. stuff so i i i guess i proposed level 00:04:59.924 --> 00:05:03.944 four is you get a jail going but you guys think that's probably more level three stuff. 00:05:03.944 --> 00:05:08.564 Yeah i mean it's just you know that'd be like saying it's not maybe it's not 00:05:08.564 --> 00:05:12.464 quite exactly the same but like if should level four for a bsd user on linux 00:05:12.464 --> 00:05:16.224 be running a docker container yeah that's. 00:05:16.224 --> 00:05:17.004 A good way to put it. 00:05:17.004 --> 00:05:22.564 Now what level four should be maybe it's like linux compatibility or getting 00:05:22.564 --> 00:05:25.744 full like docker on bs i don't know it should it feels like there should be 00:05:25.744 --> 00:05:28.184 a proper impressive stretch to it. 00:05:28.184 --> 00:05:31.124 Hmm you have any suggestions for a level four stretch brent. 00:05:31.977 --> 00:05:38.337 Uh, I have two. One would be, how long can you daily drive this thing? 00:05:38.437 --> 00:05:41.197 You know, you got it running, you got some of your applications on there. 00:05:41.357 --> 00:05:42.317 Can you make it a full week? 00:05:42.617 --> 00:05:46.237 Yeah. Are you using this as a desktop for a full week? Or is this like, 00:05:46.437 --> 00:05:49.537 you know, can you even use it as a server for a full week if that's your way to go? 00:05:50.257 --> 00:05:52.817 I have another twist though that might be interesting if you're, 00:05:52.917 --> 00:05:55.377 if you're up for it. You want more suggestions? Yeah. Yeah. 00:05:56.257 --> 00:06:00.237 What I want to know, like, what is the craziest place some of our audience members 00:06:00.237 --> 00:06:03.557 can run this BSD that they want to run for a week? 00:06:03.697 --> 00:06:07.797 Do you have some crazy device or like, are you running a, I don't know, 00:06:08.017 --> 00:06:11.917 phone network on your farm and there's some BSD components to it? 00:06:11.997 --> 00:06:16.597 Or so not something you're currently running, but like during the challenge, 00:06:16.597 --> 00:06:21.957 what is the craziest thing you're willing to do for this BSD challenge? Bonus points. 00:06:22.757 --> 00:06:24.397 Okay. Okay. 00:06:25.077 --> 00:06:29.277 See this is why we need the audience's help because uh clearly we're too nix 00:06:29.277 --> 00:06:32.797 os brained over here to really even be able to formulate a bsd challenge at this point. 00:06:32.797 --> 00:06:33.317 Isn't there a. 00:06:33.317 --> 00:06:38.757 Bsd yeah level four i mean i like the idea i like that as an idea for level 00:06:38.757 --> 00:06:40.897 four but we need to have a few other things level four because i don't know 00:06:40.897 --> 00:06:43.457 if i have any cool crazy hardware to put it on right now. 00:06:43.457 --> 00:06:44.397 Way better work at it. 00:06:44.397 --> 00:06:50.837 But i want to get all the points so level four is official beastie whisper and i want to get something. 00:06:50.837 --> 00:06:56.377 Fancy with like zfs like boot set boot environment set up so you. 00:06:56.377 --> 00:06:57.037 Get like you. 00:06:57.037 --> 00:06:59.597 Know rollbacks and stuff that might be too easy too though. 00:06:59.597 --> 00:07:03.877 Intro okay well please do boost in or go to the contact page and send us your 00:07:03.877 --> 00:07:08.137 suggestions for the bsd challenge we what we our idea would be is to kick it 00:07:08.137 --> 00:07:13.037 off in 665 officially or 664 depending what you guys tell us, 00:07:13.577 --> 00:07:17.117 and then have the conclusion in 666, right? 00:07:17.337 --> 00:07:21.217 I think that could be fun. So that's the idea. Let us know what you think for the BSD challenge. 00:07:24.310 --> 00:07:29.590 Well, as you're listening to this here podcast, Linux 7.0 should be landing. 00:07:30.030 --> 00:07:33.110 It is expected to release later today as we're recording. 00:07:33.410 --> 00:07:36.890 And even though Linus always says the major version numbers don't really mean 00:07:36.890 --> 00:07:41.550 much other than he doesn't like to get much beyond .19, there's always a bunch 00:07:41.550 --> 00:07:45.190 that ends up in these .0 releases every time. 00:07:45.270 --> 00:07:46.310 Funny how that works, huh? 00:07:46.370 --> 00:07:52.010 Yeah. So we thought we'd go through some of our favorite things in here. Surprise, surprise. 00:07:52.190 --> 00:07:55.650 Some of them are going to be file system related. but not all of them. 00:07:55.910 --> 00:07:59.290 Wes, I know you've been talking about for a little bit, the scheduler changes, 00:07:59.290 --> 00:08:01.410 some nice performance improvements there. 00:08:02.150 --> 00:08:03.530 Yeah. Which ones are you thinking of? 00:08:03.730 --> 00:08:05.510 Well, I don't know. You're the one that's been talking about them, 00:08:05.530 --> 00:08:08.550 but I think the one that I recall you mentioned is the time slice extension, 00:08:08.690 --> 00:08:12.090 although I don't really understand much about it, but I guess that sounds interesting. 00:08:12.510 --> 00:08:15.950 Notably less micro stutter and better desktop responsiveness with that one they 00:08:15.950 --> 00:08:19.410 have on there. And I remember you going on about scheduler changes recently. I just don't know. 00:08:19.550 --> 00:08:23.290 Oh yeah. I mean, there's been a lot in general, how much of that made it into 7.0. 00:08:23.430 --> 00:08:26.790 I mean, there is a lot of stuff. Some of that is coming also in 7.1, 00:08:26.850 --> 00:08:28.610 because there's always excitement around that. 00:08:28.790 --> 00:08:31.650 But yeah, one in particular is the Time Slice extension. And it, 00:08:32.501 --> 00:08:35.761 It's notable because, A, scheduling is hard. 00:08:35.881 --> 00:08:38.601 You know what I mean? Like, it's probably one of the hardest things that the 00:08:38.601 --> 00:08:43.181 kernel actually has to do in order to do it right, especially because just about 00:08:43.181 --> 00:08:44.341 everyone uses the Linux kernel. 00:08:44.341 --> 00:08:49.061 So, how do you get the right scheduling between a monster AI inference server 00:08:49.061 --> 00:08:52.441 or a Postgres database server and, you know, MyPixel? 00:08:52.661 --> 00:08:57.961 But this one has also been in the Time Slice extension, has been in development 00:08:57.961 --> 00:09:01.341 for, like, 10 years at this point, And it finally got merged, 00:09:01.761 --> 00:09:05.201 which is exciting just for the story of like open source kernel development. 00:09:05.201 --> 00:09:07.961 Something taking that long and finally make it in is always a big deal. 00:09:08.341 --> 00:09:12.341 Yeah, exactly. But it should help. Like there are times where you're in what 00:09:12.341 --> 00:09:15.821 are called critical sections as a process where you really don't want to be interrupted. 00:09:16.001 --> 00:09:17.861 You know, maybe you're doing something with the disk or, you know, 00:09:17.961 --> 00:09:19.981 some sort of critical part of your application. 00:09:20.601 --> 00:09:24.921 And this is trying to help so that like user space processes can sort of request 00:09:24.921 --> 00:09:29.101 a time slice where they won't get preempted without some of the full performance 00:09:29.101 --> 00:09:31.781 overheads of like actually fully blocking preemption, 00:09:32.021 --> 00:09:34.541 where the kernel might still need to do something ultimately to maintain, 00:09:34.541 --> 00:09:39.001 you know, acceptable latency elsewhere, but to try to provide more information 00:09:39.001 --> 00:09:43.501 and more mechanisms to allow user space processes to better actually share the 00:09:43.501 --> 00:09:45.641 available resources and meet their own deadlines. 00:09:45.861 --> 00:09:48.561 And so that's where the name time slicing comes from, is you can kind of, 00:09:48.761 --> 00:09:52.381 as I guess as a resource heavy application, you could say, hey, 00:09:52.501 --> 00:09:55.841 I'm going to need some time coming up soon, make it available for me. 00:09:56.321 --> 00:09:57.341 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 00:09:57.758 --> 00:10:01.478 I mean, it gets more detailed than that, right? Because there's stuff called 00:10:01.478 --> 00:10:04.678 restartable sequences and all 00:10:04.678 --> 00:10:07.818 of the heuristics that kind of go into like fully optimizing this stuff. 00:10:08.158 --> 00:10:11.558 There's also been more work, which got some drama over, 00:10:11.838 --> 00:10:14.358 which we talked about, I think in a previous members episode, 00:10:14.518 --> 00:10:20.158 maybe around Postgres having benchmarks that were like 50% slower on some instances 00:10:20.158 --> 00:10:24.098 that also had to do with some changes happening to preemption in the kernel. 00:10:24.098 --> 00:10:28.518 And that's where right the whole thing that we have a actual preemptible thing 00:10:28.518 --> 00:10:32.798 where tasks do get interrupted and we aren't just running one application anymore 00:10:32.798 --> 00:10:35.558 it's still having consequences 30 years later. 00:10:35.558 --> 00:10:38.518 Well here's the thing i've learned watching these kernel releases 00:10:38.518 --> 00:10:41.438 and it's very much so true with the 7.0 release 00:10:41.438 --> 00:10:44.678 you could kind of plan your next laptop or 00:10:44.678 --> 00:10:47.838 workstation upgrade around these so 00:10:47.838 --> 00:10:51.238 what's in 7.0 are a bunch 00:10:51.238 --> 00:10:54.698 of new drivers and what what 00:10:54.698 --> 00:10:58.738 gets called i guess the kernel developers call foundational drivers for the 00:10:58.738 --> 00:11:05.178 next gen cpu and gpus that are landing in the next amd in the intel and qualcomm 00:11:05.178 --> 00:11:10.098 platforms and a few others and so the nice thing is is that because these these 00:11:10.098 --> 00:11:13.858 types of kernels take a little bit to get out except for ubuntu is going to ship it pretty soon. 00:11:14.778 --> 00:11:18.758 It means brand new laptops and desktops are probably going to work out of the 00:11:18.758 --> 00:11:22.978 box with Linux 7.0 with everything functional day one. 00:11:23.098 --> 00:11:25.838 And you're going to be able to get these new platforms like an AMD Zen 6, 00:11:25.858 --> 00:11:28.038 which I am particularly looking forward to. 00:11:28.478 --> 00:11:31.538 And it's just going to work with 7.0. And what I mean by you could watch this 00:11:31.538 --> 00:11:34.978 and kind of plan your hardware releases is you can see, okay, 00:11:35.058 --> 00:11:36.638 this is landing now in 7.0. 00:11:37.178 --> 00:11:43.998 And so if I want to get an AMD Zen 6 system and I use XYZ distro then i just 00:11:43.998 --> 00:11:47.318 wait till xyz distro gets 7-0 and that's my window of time to upgrade to that 00:11:47.318 --> 00:11:51.278 new hardware you know and that that will just ensure it's a smooth process and it's, 00:11:52.657 --> 00:11:58.057 It's so much new hardware coming to Linux with new capabilities across x86, 00:11:58.457 --> 00:12:00.677 ARM64, RISC-V, and even Power. 00:12:02.157 --> 00:12:05.957 Like, this is a massive CPU architecture release, Linux 7.0. 00:12:06.257 --> 00:12:12.517 Yeah, there's SpaceMitK3, which is the first of the RVA23 profile specifications 00:12:12.517 --> 00:12:15.177 of actual RISC-V hardware being supported in the kernel, 00:12:15.257 --> 00:12:21.817 which I think also includes maybe some acceleration for some sorts of AI-type tasks. 00:12:21.817 --> 00:12:27.597 So maybe, I mean, it's still early days, but maybe, yeah, I think it's 8AI Accelerator Core. 00:12:27.737 --> 00:12:30.497 So what you can really do with it, how you get your hands on it, 00:12:30.537 --> 00:12:35.317 I don't know, but it's at least starting to look slightly less like only sort 00:12:35.317 --> 00:12:37.257 of developer machine enablement. 00:12:38.819 --> 00:12:42.179 Okay. Is there anything else we need to cover? I mean, I know there's a lot 00:12:42.179 --> 00:12:45.779 in this, and Feronix and Linux Newbies has done a great job, 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.879 or kernel Newbies, has done a great job of rounding a lot of this up, 00:12:48.939 --> 00:12:53.099 but file system area is pretty big this release, and I think we should probably get to that. 00:12:53.099 --> 00:12:56.599 What, you're going to skip over the AI agent key support? Come on, the copilot key. 00:12:57.579 --> 00:12:57.939 What? 00:12:58.879 --> 00:12:59.239 Yeah. 00:12:59.739 --> 00:13:02.739 No, this did not make my list of features. Tell me about this. 00:13:02.739 --> 00:13:08.919 There's the co-pilot key, but beyond that, Linux 7.0 adds three additional standardized 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:12.359 HID key codes for contextual AI interactions. 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:18.779 Action on selection, contextual insertion, and contextual query. 00:13:19.219 --> 00:13:19.379 What? 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:21.339 Chris, why is your face doing that? 00:13:21.539 --> 00:13:25.899 I don't even understand what this means. I literally don't. Brent, 00:13:26.059 --> 00:13:29.959 do you have a guess of what this means? I'm sure Wes knows, but... 00:13:29.959 --> 00:13:33.919 Sounds like maybe some buzzwords got into the mailing list here. 00:13:34.059 --> 00:13:38.419 I mean, is it like something for deploying? Is it to enable agents to deploy 00:13:38.419 --> 00:13:40.859 and identify systems on cloud infrastructure? 00:13:41.579 --> 00:13:43.419 Like, that's the only place I could go with this. 00:13:43.439 --> 00:13:46.379 I think it's for interactions, right? So that now you have, you could have something 00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:50.939 where it's like, select something and click a button, and you could have a universal, 00:13:50.939 --> 00:13:54.779 like, HID-level way to ask an assistant for help. 00:13:54.899 --> 00:13:57.899 Or we could remap it, whatever, because it's Linux, right? But like on Windows, 00:13:57.959 --> 00:14:01.919 you might have a copilot key, and then google got this more sort of fine-brained 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:05.679 stuff so you can have like i want to ask the ai a question or i want the ai 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:08.199 to insert or edit text here. 00:14:08.199 --> 00:14:08.699 Or yeah. 00:14:08.699 --> 00:14:09.059 That kind of. 00:14:09.059 --> 00:14:11.299 The word key is used for so many things these days. 00:14:11.299 --> 00:14:16.119 But like so you can have keyboard you could have like a keyboard key but this 00:14:16.119 --> 00:14:19.139 could probably also work if you were building one of those tubes that's constantly 00:14:19.139 --> 00:14:23.199 trying to sell you stuff probably work for that too you know i have a little 00:14:23.199 --> 00:14:26.619 button on there i can see that okay yeah that's true all right all right this 00:14:26.619 --> 00:14:29.679 is it's interesting the stuff that makes it at the kernel level okay now can 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:31.259 we talk about file systems okay, 00:14:32.793 --> 00:14:33.333 So, Brent. 00:14:33.953 --> 00:14:34.313 Yes? 00:14:35.093 --> 00:14:37.273 I bet you would think if we were going to talk about file systems, 00:14:37.413 --> 00:14:40.673 you would assume we were going to talk about BcacheFS or ButterFS. 00:14:40.913 --> 00:14:44.513 But it turns out some of our traditional favorites got some nice updates as well. 00:14:44.833 --> 00:14:46.873 So the old is the modern now? 00:14:48.093 --> 00:14:52.053 Well, I mean, if you're using the older file system, quote unquote older, 00:14:52.273 --> 00:14:54.893 you still get good stuff, right? 00:14:54.953 --> 00:14:58.833 I think everybody knows XFS is one of our favorites. 00:14:58.893 --> 00:14:59.873 It's one of your darlings. 00:14:59.873 --> 00:15:03.233 But now one of Wes's predictions has come true. 00:15:03.493 --> 00:15:07.753 Yeah, it looks like ext4 is getting faster concurrent I.O. 00:15:07.833 --> 00:15:13.113 Rights, and there's a new standardized generic I.O. error reporting layer across file systems. 00:15:15.053 --> 00:15:22.593 And, well, that means that container creation is 40% faster thanks to OpenTree 00:15:22.593 --> 00:15:25.793 namespace improvements. Wes, how do you feel about this? 00:15:26.593 --> 00:15:29.933 I am pro. So you wouldn't be surprised by that, though. 00:15:30.153 --> 00:15:32.653 But yeah, we talked a little bit about it in the past. There's been a bunch 00:15:32.653 --> 00:15:38.933 of improvements tied to NOLFS being in this kernel and the OpenTree namespace 00:15:38.933 --> 00:15:42.893 stuff that means sort of the mount namespace handling, 00:15:43.173 --> 00:15:45.933 which is very important if you want to isolate a container or be able to pick 00:15:45.933 --> 00:15:47.753 and choose what mounts a container sees. 00:15:48.093 --> 00:15:52.193 All of that stuff can be a lot more sane without having to copy every single 00:15:52.193 --> 00:15:56.833 mount on the system and then just to remove 80% of those to get the actual mount 00:15:56.833 --> 00:15:57.773 tree that you really want. 00:15:57.833 --> 00:16:01.473 And so when you tie that into improved stuff like, you know, 00:16:02.233 --> 00:16:05.373 concurrent direct IO writes to multiple files, and there's often lots of tiny 00:16:05.373 --> 00:16:08.713 files involved with containers, you can see how some of these performance wins 00:16:08.713 --> 00:16:09.653 really start stacking together. 00:16:10.495 --> 00:16:11.335 That is good to see. 00:16:11.915 --> 00:16:14.575 I'm curious, what did you base your prediction on then? 00:16:15.215 --> 00:16:20.355 Oh, no. This was the prediction, Brent. And this is the one that made my list, 00:16:20.595 --> 00:16:23.755 is XFS has gained autonomous self-healing. 00:16:23.955 --> 00:16:24.355 No way. 00:16:24.355 --> 00:16:28.315 Real-time air monitoring plus automatic background repairs. This, 00:16:28.435 --> 00:16:31.635 I think, was one of your predictions, if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Payne. 00:16:31.995 --> 00:16:37.195 I mean, you know, there's a lot of excitement around a lot of the file systems that we talk about. 00:16:37.515 --> 00:16:42.055 But you shouldn't sleep on XFS, right? They've been adding like sneaky copy 00:16:42.055 --> 00:16:46.935 on write style features. They've been adding more like dynamic stuff at runtime, 00:16:47.455 --> 00:16:52.355 more monitoring, and now more live information about file system health events. 00:16:52.475 --> 00:16:55.735 And then that means you actually have the possibility to act on those and try 00:16:55.735 --> 00:17:00.255 to self-repair immediately instead of, you know, a month later when you notice and you run that FSCK. 00:17:00.655 --> 00:17:05.495 Yeah, the patch set is interesting. It's done by creating an anonymous file 00:17:05.495 --> 00:17:07.795 that can be read for events by user space programs. 00:17:07.795 --> 00:17:12.415 Events are captured by hooking various parts of XFS and IOMAP so that metadata 00:17:12.415 --> 00:17:16.695 health failures, file IO errors, and major changes in file system states like 00:17:16.695 --> 00:17:17.715 unmount, shutdown, etc. 00:17:18.055 --> 00:17:21.395 Can be observed by user space programs. When an event occurs, 00:17:21.495 --> 00:17:25.335 the hook functions queue an event object to each event for later processing. 00:17:25.515 --> 00:17:28.615 A program must have the ability to read it, yada, yada, yada, going on. 00:17:28.935 --> 00:17:31.295 In user space, we created a new, this is the part that is interesting, 00:17:31.415 --> 00:17:33.375 in user space, we created a new daemon program. 00:17:34.808 --> 00:17:39.308 It will read objects and initiate repairs automatically. This daemon is managed 00:17:39.308 --> 00:17:44.128 entirely by system D and will not block unmounting of the file system unless 00:17:44.128 --> 00:17:47.288 repairs are ongoing, which is interesting. 00:17:47.428 --> 00:17:48.988 So you can unmount it unless it's in the middle of a repair. 00:17:49.088 --> 00:17:50.208 It'll stop you from unmounting it. 00:17:50.748 --> 00:17:56.288 The daemons are auto started by a service that uses fan O notify. 00:17:56.868 --> 00:17:57.648 Yeah, F-A notify. 00:17:58.008 --> 00:17:58.988 Thank you. F-A notify. 00:17:58.988 --> 00:18:02.068 Yeah and that's what's so cool about this is it's not just 00:18:02.068 --> 00:18:06.408 the file system level kernel level functionality that like hey we have this 00:18:06.408 --> 00:18:10.308 new framework it'll be great once someone takes advantage of it no this is like 00:18:10.308 --> 00:18:14.588 actually also shipping a user space thing that can take immediate advantage 00:18:14.588 --> 00:18:17.908 of it i mean you know you got to get it shipped and packaged and available and 00:18:17.908 --> 00:18:21.308 configured in distros downstream and all of that but that'll happen. 00:18:21.308 --> 00:18:26.608 You will have to have system d as well Another noteworthy XFS change is a performance 00:18:26.608 --> 00:18:28.168 improvement for parent pointers. 00:18:28.548 --> 00:18:32.628 They're used for storing backlinks in a file extended attribute for a parent 00:18:32.628 --> 00:18:36.368 and directory in its file name. And I guess in some cases... 00:18:37.507 --> 00:18:41.907 Wait in times had increased by 56% in some scenarios, and now those times are 00:18:41.907 --> 00:18:46.607 down to 8% for writes and 19% for deletion. 00:18:47.347 --> 00:18:51.027 So, not bad. Yeah, it's kind of that boring level of optimization where you 00:18:51.027 --> 00:18:54.467 probably don't even know what the, why do we have these parent pointers and all of that? 00:18:54.547 --> 00:18:59.407 But, you know, file systems end up being a giant set of arrows pointing at different things, right? 00:18:59.407 --> 00:19:03.007 Unless you want to copy everything all of the time, you need ways, 00:19:03.107 --> 00:19:06.387 like if you're dealing with extended attributes, you need ways to know details 00:19:06.387 --> 00:19:09.767 about the parent directory, where you're at in the file system, 00:19:09.887 --> 00:19:11.127 the permissions that are there. 00:19:11.547 --> 00:19:15.367 And if you have to go try to search some data structure every time you want 00:19:15.367 --> 00:19:17.267 to do that, you're going to have a bad time. 00:19:17.387 --> 00:19:21.867 And so parent pointers help you go have back references, have links, 00:19:22.027 --> 00:19:25.707 have pointers, as the name implies, to be able to traverse around on the file 00:19:25.707 --> 00:19:27.407 system and get from here to there. 00:19:27.407 --> 00:19:32.327 And you know there's extra cost to those both size and then sometimes how they're 00:19:32.327 --> 00:19:35.447 implemented has performance and so the faster you can resolve all those sort 00:19:35.447 --> 00:19:38.827 of metadata relations in the file system the faster the whole thing will be. 00:19:38.827 --> 00:19:42.627 So there's a few other items on our on our shared list i have one other big 00:19:42.627 --> 00:19:46.967 one on my personal list we have some memory management changes anything in particular 00:19:46.967 --> 00:19:53.787 you want to touch on before we get to the big news regarding the horns if you know what i mean. 00:19:53.787 --> 00:19:57.527 Yeah uh there's some cool iou ring stuff going on i. 00:19:57.527 --> 00:19:59.287 Was hoping you would cover that okay good. 00:19:59.287 --> 00:20:02.907 Yeah iou ring security task level 00:20:02.907 --> 00:20:07.427 restrictions and there's a functionality called sec comp in the kernel that 00:20:07.427 --> 00:20:11.427 we use a lot for various sandbox and gets used in containers sec comp bbf is 00:20:11.427 --> 00:20:16.147 a thing it's a type of policy you can apply to filter the available system calls 00:20:16.147 --> 00:20:17.767 that can happen so you can say 00:20:17.767 --> 00:20:21.187 like hey this program doesn't need to use a bunch of these system calls. 00:20:21.287 --> 00:20:23.787 It only needs to read files and talk to the network in this way or whatever. 00:20:24.227 --> 00:20:26.707 So you can set up set comp to then secure a program. 00:20:27.815 --> 00:20:32.975 SecComp filters work on these system calls, but they don't see IOU ring. 00:20:33.195 --> 00:20:37.215 At least they didn't before kernel 7. And this is because IOU ring is this whole 00:20:37.215 --> 00:20:41.875 sort of asynchronous ring that's meant to help have this section of memory that 00:20:41.875 --> 00:20:45.235 both user space and the kernel can talk to and then share there without having 00:20:45.235 --> 00:20:48.995 to have constantly switching between user space and kernel space, 00:20:49.115 --> 00:20:52.195 which can be an expensive operation like when you do a system call. 00:20:52.355 --> 00:20:55.695 But the problem is now you've created this whole other way to effectively make 00:20:55.695 --> 00:20:59.595 at least a subset of system calls, which is using IOU ring to do it. 00:21:00.055 --> 00:21:04.215 And sec comp previously had no visibility. So you could do all this nice security 00:21:04.215 --> 00:21:07.295 work to filter the available system calls for an application with sec comp, 00:21:07.455 --> 00:21:12.655 only to then have IOU ring be a big gaping hole in that because it was effectively out of base. 00:21:13.472 --> 00:21:17.872 So essentially now, you know, the limitations basically were containers and 00:21:17.872 --> 00:21:20.592 systemd that do apply these filters essentially couldn't. 00:21:20.772 --> 00:21:26.772 So they've added classic BPF filters or CBPF, which that's a whole other thing here. 00:21:26.852 --> 00:21:32.072 But yes, we have CBPF and eBPF in the kernel for these IOU ring operations and 00:21:32.072 --> 00:21:33.872 their task level restrictions. 00:21:33.872 --> 00:21:38.592 They persist across fork. BPF filters can also examine sort of the arguments 00:21:38.592 --> 00:21:42.912 that are going into the filtering operation, which means they're strictly more 00:21:42.912 --> 00:21:45.552 capable than SecComp in that regard. 00:21:45.972 --> 00:21:50.772 And you might wonder why CPPF, why classic BPF Berkeley packet filter and not 00:21:50.772 --> 00:21:53.492 extended Berkeley packet filter with eBPF. 00:21:53.772 --> 00:21:58.472 That's actually because in containers, often eBPF for security reasons gets disabled. 00:21:58.652 --> 00:22:01.972 So they needed some kind of way to do this with a bytecode, flexible bytecode 00:22:01.972 --> 00:22:06.052 format that could work both in containers and with IOUring's model. 00:22:06.592 --> 00:22:08.712 And thus, this patch set was born. 00:22:08.932 --> 00:22:12.152 Wow, that feels like a pretty serious amount of constraints. 00:22:12.332 --> 00:22:13.112 That's very impressive. 00:22:13.472 --> 00:22:17.612 And as usual, it was Jens Expo, who does just incredible work in file system 00:22:17.612 --> 00:22:20.852 performance and security work and IOUring in particular. 00:22:21.352 --> 00:22:25.892 So yeah, a very impressive change. And while it might be stuff you and I aren't 00:22:25.892 --> 00:22:31.412 using day-to-day all of the time, the folks doing really performance and latency 00:22:31.412 --> 00:22:34.932 sensitive work on linux and security work definitely will care. 00:22:34.932 --> 00:22:39.932 Yeah and of course the biggest news of the 7.0 release is the tux logo is now 00:22:39.932 --> 00:22:44.912 customizable via a new k config option forgot that that's bearing the lead sorry about that everybody. 00:22:44.912 --> 00:22:47.432 Oh yeah that's actually going to be most of our episode next week we'll be. 00:22:47.432 --> 00:22:51.652 Playing with that and getting the jupiter rocket on there another big deal for 00:22:51.652 --> 00:22:55.612 7.0 is the rust experiment is over. 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:03.400 It is official. Rust is now considered part of the Linux kernel and has moved 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:05.280 to a new stage of recognition. 00:23:05.600 --> 00:23:09.340 The experiment is done, i.e. Rust is here to stay. 00:23:09.780 --> 00:23:13.300 Miguel Ojeda said, the experiment is done. Rust is here to stay. 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.320 I hope this signals commitment from the kernel to companies and other entities 00:23:17.320 --> 00:23:19.660 to invest more into it, e.g. 00:23:19.780 --> 00:23:24.580 Into giving time to their kernel developers to train themselves in Rust. 00:23:24.780 --> 00:23:28.700 Thanks to the many kernel maintainers that gave this project the support and 00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:31.440 patience throughout these years, and to the many other developers, 00:23:31.700 --> 00:23:35.760 whether in the kernel or in other projects, that have made this possible. 00:23:35.860 --> 00:23:41.100 I had a long list of 173 names in the credits for the original poll that merged 00:23:41.100 --> 00:23:42.880 the support into the kernel. 00:23:43.100 --> 00:23:47.460 And now such a list would be way longer, so I'm not even going to try to compose 00:23:47.460 --> 00:23:49.800 one. But again, thanks a lot, everybody. 00:23:51.020 --> 00:23:53.960 Wow how long have we been following that this. 00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:54.900 Has been a journey. 00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:59.060 Somehow i don't think this is really going to be the end of the drama but it 00:23:59.060 --> 00:24:03.960 is at least a very notable moment in that conversation right it's it's it's a turning point. 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:06.460 Will uh will they pull it out in a couple months or what. 00:24:06.460 --> 00:24:08.760 Yeah no. 00:24:08.760 --> 00:24:09.780 We're moving to zig yeah. 00:24:09.780 --> 00:24:14.540 Yeah right it's moments like this that you just reflect all this and go gosh 00:24:14.540 --> 00:24:17.140 this has been a real journey you know this has been something we've watched 00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:18.940 for years, and it's finally landed. 00:24:19.100 --> 00:24:22.980 How long did we spend, like, will they, won't they? Is Rust the right fit? 00:24:23.260 --> 00:24:25.100 How do you get agreement? What? 00:24:27.024 --> 00:24:31.124 I think every time we do a segment like this, you just have to stop and marvel 00:24:31.124 --> 00:24:36.764 at everything the kernel is doing, all of the complexity that goes into the 00:24:36.764 --> 00:24:39.264 kernel, how much it changes even on a daily basis. 00:24:39.584 --> 00:24:43.164 And yet we get to just run it on whatever device we want to. 00:24:43.284 --> 00:24:46.724 And it works quite beautifully for the most part. Like it's astonishing. 00:24:47.124 --> 00:24:51.824 I think it's important to be reminded of that and to thank everyone for all 00:24:51.824 --> 00:24:56.104 the crazy amount of work that they put into it that we get to take advantage of. So thank you. 00:24:56.104 --> 00:24:59.024 Maybe a few less systems will be supported, though. 00:24:59.524 --> 00:25:04.884 Linux 7.1, the next version, is the end of the beginning. 00:25:05.004 --> 00:25:08.044 The beginning of the end, I guess, for i486 support. 00:25:08.244 --> 00:25:12.244 And this has, I guess, been in the works for a while. But Linux 7.1 is expected 00:25:12.244 --> 00:25:16.404 to start the removal of Intel i486 CPU support from the upstream Linux kernel. 00:25:17.244 --> 00:25:21.264 Linus Torvalds has reportedly said that there is, quote, zero reason to keep 00:25:21.264 --> 00:25:24.184 i486 support since almost nobody is still using it. 00:25:24.504 --> 00:25:24.764 Ooh. 00:25:25.444 --> 00:25:28.384 Uh-huh. And no modern Linux distribution ships with support. 00:25:28.624 --> 00:25:33.504 They say users who rely on 486 hardware are pointed towards using the existing 00:25:33.504 --> 00:25:36.124 LTS kernels that remain, for now. 00:25:37.004 --> 00:25:41.404 This is the first step, and it's a patch that removes the config option in the 00:25:41.404 --> 00:25:46.804 kernel for the 486 build. So the kernel will no longer build a 486 image. 00:25:47.004 --> 00:25:50.724 And then the steps further down the road will be full code removal, 00:25:50.744 --> 00:25:55.384 which will likely come in following kernel series, assuming there's no major objections. 00:25:55.764 --> 00:25:59.464 You know, it's really kind of a salt in the wound because in 7.0, 00:25:59.644 --> 00:26:02.904 they dropped the last remaining parallel port Ethernet driver. 00:26:03.404 --> 00:26:07.764 So what's happening here? Yeah. And we got to make room for Wi-Fi 8 and 800 00:26:07.764 --> 00:26:09.144 gigabit networking, I guess. 00:26:09.344 --> 00:26:13.264 I will admit, the first thing that popped into my head when I saw this story 00:26:13.264 --> 00:26:15.924 was, should I fire up a 486 machine just one last time? 00:26:15.924 --> 00:26:21.724 Yeah, I was thinking like, oh, stay tuned. You'll see a 486 challenge in Linux 00:26:21.724 --> 00:26:23.544 Unplugged in any time now. 00:26:24.104 --> 00:26:25.004 I mean... 00:26:25.004 --> 00:26:27.744 Level 4 BSD. Is he getting it to work on 486? 00:26:27.864 --> 00:26:28.584 Watch it, E-Bag. 00:26:32.926 --> 00:26:35.986 Thank you to our members. Thank you very much for making this possible. 00:26:36.286 --> 00:26:39.186 We don't have a sponsor for this segment, but we're still here. 00:26:39.746 --> 00:26:40.986 Linuxunplugged.com slash membership. 00:26:41.226 --> 00:26:43.526 And if you want to support the whole network, it's jupyter.party. 00:26:43.686 --> 00:26:46.806 You get two options for the Unplugged program. You get the ad-free version still 00:26:46.806 --> 00:26:50.106 produced by Editor Drew, or you get the bootleg clocking in at about an hour 00:26:50.106 --> 00:26:52.326 12 right now with lots of extra content. 00:26:52.706 --> 00:26:55.646 Stuff we really should put in the show, but we want to make something great 00:26:55.646 --> 00:26:57.266 for our members too, so that's the bootleg feed. 00:26:57.666 --> 00:27:01.126 Both available with the direct membership or the jupyter.party membership. 00:27:01.126 --> 00:27:04.926 And of course a boost will directly support each episode the splits are set 00:27:04.926 --> 00:27:09.006 up automatically go to myself editor drew and the developer of the podcast app 00:27:09.006 --> 00:27:12.166 and you can support each episode with a boost and send a message on the show 00:27:12.166 --> 00:27:16.226 as well and that's one of our favorite moments so we appreciate that thank you 00:27:16.226 --> 00:27:17.386 members and thank you boosters. 00:27:20.766 --> 00:27:25.526 Well with some recent workflow changes on my end i've been using git more now 00:27:25.526 --> 00:27:30.386 than i ever have It seems almost every folder on my system now has a little 00:27:30.386 --> 00:27:31.646 Git repository hidden in it. 00:27:32.166 --> 00:27:36.466 Chris, you recently leaned into Git as well this year. This is like your year of Git. 00:27:37.126 --> 00:27:41.246 And, well, Wes, you've been using it forever, and you showed us the way. Thank you. 00:27:42.126 --> 00:27:47.506 But we got us thinking, like, can we do Git in a different way? 00:27:47.506 --> 00:27:50.346 Because GitHub has certainly been ubiquitous. 00:27:51.086 --> 00:27:52.166 But can we do better? 00:27:52.766 --> 00:27:55.946 Yeah. I feel it creeping into more and more of my workflow, too. 00:27:55.946 --> 00:27:59.146 You know at first it was like oh this is great for sharing projects with 00:27:59.146 --> 00:28:02.086 the audience and that it is good for but then 00:28:02.086 --> 00:28:04.726 it's like well I'm already all set up and I'm authorized and I've 00:28:04.726 --> 00:28:08.506 got the command line tools and every app has a built-in so next thing you know 00:28:08.506 --> 00:28:13.066 I've got like 15 repositories and I'm checking stuff in every day and now I'm 00:28:13.066 --> 00:28:16.246 starting to look at making gists and I'm starting to put those up on get having 00:28:16.246 --> 00:28:19.686 just go home using an action and all these things I'm using more and more of 00:28:19.686 --> 00:28:22.286 github and yeah I thought. 00:28:23.565 --> 00:28:26.045 I got to tap the brakes here a little bit. And we've been talking about this 00:28:26.045 --> 00:28:31.865 offline for about a year, if we should build our own GitLab or something like that. 00:28:32.385 --> 00:28:36.425 And so for me, this week, it came to a head when I was creating yet another 00:28:36.425 --> 00:28:39.165 gist. And I don't have like big requirements here. 00:28:39.685 --> 00:28:43.425 I want like kind of like a prompt library. I want a command library, 00:28:44.005 --> 00:28:46.785 you know, useful Nix OS commands or useful commands for a router, 00:28:46.965 --> 00:28:48.225 whatever it might be that I'm working on. 00:28:48.545 --> 00:28:52.125 I want to just have like a library of these kinds of things I can go to and share with people. 00:28:52.645 --> 00:28:58.625 And GIST is a lazy way to do it on GitHub, but there's got to be other things in other ways. 00:28:58.745 --> 00:29:02.765 So I looked into OpenGIST, which is a self-hosted pastebin powered by Git. 00:29:03.265 --> 00:29:07.845 And as you would expect, you can just run it as a Docker container or whatever 00:29:07.845 --> 00:29:10.205 on your machine. And OpenGIST is pretty great. 00:29:10.405 --> 00:29:12.645 It's a AGPL 3.0 licensed. 00:29:12.985 --> 00:29:17.525 It is mostly written in Go and a little bit of TypeScript. 00:29:17.785 --> 00:29:22.665 And the interface is really nice and simple. and it's pretty, pretty good. 00:29:24.155 --> 00:29:29.655 Didn't quite solve my needs, especially because I think I don't need just gist. 00:29:29.775 --> 00:29:32.535 I think I might need actions and might as well. 00:29:32.715 --> 00:29:38.155 That was going to be my first question for you was, like, I think you have been using a lot of them. 00:29:38.295 --> 00:29:41.935 And maybe it's useful to frame sort of the capabilities because there's, 00:29:42.075 --> 00:29:44.535 you know, we're talking about a lot of different technologies, right? 00:29:44.615 --> 00:29:50.635 There's Git itself, the Merkle tree directed acyclic graph that like stores 00:29:50.635 --> 00:29:53.955 all of the wonderful details. That's totally open source. Then there's like 00:29:53.955 --> 00:29:57.415 GitHub as a proprietary service and UI and interface. 00:29:57.795 --> 00:30:01.735 And then there's like the sub features, right? So like GISTs on GitHub are sort 00:30:01.735 --> 00:30:07.295 of like a pastebin snippet, but with GIST support or with Git support under the hood. 00:30:07.455 --> 00:30:11.055 And that's where I think OpenGIST is very interesting because it is like, 00:30:11.215 --> 00:30:13.235 there's a lot of pastebin things, right? 00:30:13.255 --> 00:30:16.895 We already run several, I think, between various people as part of the network, 00:30:16.895 --> 00:30:22.275 but not a lot of them also have Git under the hood, which is a pretty big upgrade. 00:30:22.575 --> 00:30:26.115 It is only really directly targeting that one use case of like, 00:30:26.255 --> 00:30:27.795 I want a get back to paste bin. 00:30:28.375 --> 00:30:30.875 It's a little narrow for what I, I, I, this is where I started. 00:30:30.995 --> 00:30:34.555 I might want something more broad than this. I'm not sure. 00:30:34.995 --> 00:30:37.775 I'm not, I guess what I'm trying to decide is do I want to go all in or do I 00:30:37.775 --> 00:30:39.875 want to have several tools I string together? You know what I mean? 00:30:40.415 --> 00:30:43.355 Yeah, I do. Cause you kind of already, right? There's, that's where it's like. 00:30:44.069 --> 00:30:49.469 Not everyone is on GitHub, but it has a social networking effect to it. 00:30:49.529 --> 00:30:50.349 And there's that aspect. 00:30:50.689 --> 00:30:53.109 And then there's just the question of like, what are you doing? 00:30:54.169 --> 00:30:56.709 There's different activities that you do in Git. There's stuff that's totally 00:30:56.709 --> 00:31:00.749 private, that's part of your own mesh network and backend infrastructure. 00:31:01.229 --> 00:31:04.629 There's stuff that's a mix where it is your stuff, but you want to have it available 00:31:04.629 --> 00:31:07.009 and shared with the audience or us. 00:31:07.209 --> 00:31:09.129 Oh yeah, you too. Yeah, exactly. 00:31:09.589 --> 00:31:13.169 And so maybe to that extent, it does make sense to have multiple tools. 00:31:13.169 --> 00:31:18.629 But then you also don't want to make even more crazy, complicated setups when 00:31:18.629 --> 00:31:22.049 the whole point was just to be able to like easily share or easily have, 00:31:22.069 --> 00:31:24.749 you know, backups and change control and change management. 00:31:25.609 --> 00:31:30.889 So this is kind of my I guess you could say I'm at a bit of a fork in the road 00:31:30.889 --> 00:31:33.689 in a way. It's like I could I feel like I could. Yeah. You like that? 00:31:34.049 --> 00:31:34.189 Yeah. 00:31:35.049 --> 00:31:38.709 I feel like I could pause here and kind of. 00:31:39.849 --> 00:31:42.889 Take some guidance. And I know you've been playing with a self-hosted setup, 00:31:42.969 --> 00:31:47.149 but I'm not quite clear on what you've been working on and how far you've taken it. 00:31:47.249 --> 00:31:49.989 So I'm curious to know what you've been building, Wes. 00:31:50.469 --> 00:31:52.389 Brent, I'm curious to know if you've looked into this at all. 00:31:52.449 --> 00:31:54.449 And obviously I want to know what the audience is hosting. So, 00:31:54.509 --> 00:31:55.289 Brent, I'll start with you. 00:31:55.549 --> 00:32:00.409 Have you looked into any kind of self-hosted Git, Lab, 4GEO? 00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:02.540 Type solutions at all. 00:32:02.540 --> 00:32:10.640 When we started with the website project to rebuild jupiterbroadcasting.com 00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:15.960 using the community and using you know best practices which meant i had to learn git, 00:32:16.600 --> 00:32:20.820 as you'll remember i was like for a couple weeks there just like deep diving 00:32:20.820 --> 00:32:24.860 into how git works on the back end how best to use it because i felt like i 00:32:24.860 --> 00:32:28.300 hadn't necessarily had the experience before yeah. 00:32:28.300 --> 00:32:29.640 That was one of my favorite weeks ever. 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.540 Now it's just a daily tool things seem to happen. 00:32:33.020 --> 00:32:38.640 And back then, I remember thinking, well, given my deep lean to privacy and 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:45.020 hesitation around trusting Microsoft, certainly I looked into what can I self-host myself. 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:51.580 And these days, I am not putting any of my personal stuff on GitHub, 00:32:51.580 --> 00:32:55.740 mostly because I don't trust myself to not throw keys in there and stuff at this point. 00:32:56.120 --> 00:33:00.020 So I have looked into alternatives forge 00:33:00.020 --> 00:33:03.320 joe and at the time get t and those options 00:33:03.320 --> 00:33:06.940 it felt at that point a little too 00:33:06.940 --> 00:33:11.000 powerful for what i was looking for which is just a little bit of hosting of 00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:14.660 some code but these days i think 00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:18.420 i need to revisit that i determined back then that i probably didn't 00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:21.520 need it but given workflow changes recently 00:33:21.520 --> 00:33:24.320 and using it daily and how that might 00:33:24.320 --> 00:33:29.520 solve some problems for me i haven't been looking actively at changing it but 00:33:29.520 --> 00:33:34.680 i've been thinking actively about the implications of using github on the daily 00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:41.240 yeah and so i'm looking forward to hearing what wes can implement for us really 00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:43.600 is what it comes down to i'm. 00:33:43.600 --> 00:33:46.600 On the i'm on the same path it's like well i'm only using it for this well i'm 00:33:46.600 --> 00:33:49.700 only using it for this well now i'm only i'm only using it for these three or four things. 00:33:49.700 --> 00:33:50.340 On github. 00:33:50.340 --> 00:33:54.200 In particular and some of my systems like my servers i just use Git locally, 00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:56.820 it's fine because I have a different backup strategy for that, 00:33:56.940 --> 00:33:59.940 but more and more of my projects have been drifting to GitHub. 00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:03.640 Alright, so what have you been cooking on in the background there, Mr. Payne? 00:34:04.496 --> 00:34:07.916 Yeah, well, it started, I mean, I've done multiple, I've had a lot of stuff 00:34:07.916 --> 00:34:11.136 in Git, and I've used, you know, GitLab and various things. 00:34:11.276 --> 00:34:15.556 And there's a bunch of simple, you know, backend options for this simple web 00:34:15.556 --> 00:34:17.836 UIs just on top of Git or that kind of thing. 00:34:17.916 --> 00:34:21.536 But for me, it got more serious, because I had been mirroring stuff to GitHub, 00:34:21.656 --> 00:34:25.996 and they, you know, and I had my own backups of a bunch of my repos. 00:34:25.996 --> 00:34:29.096 Sure yeah you know they added more easier private 00:34:29.096 --> 00:34:31.896 repo support without having to pay a few years ago so 00:34:31.896 --> 00:34:34.676 that was one thing but when we 00:34:34.676 --> 00:34:37.676 started playing more with open claw like that project is just such 00:34:37.676 --> 00:34:41.156 a mess especially just as fast as it moves and things change i was like there's 00:34:41.156 --> 00:34:45.316 no way not only do i need to have this running on nix os but i it just all needs 00:34:45.316 --> 00:34:49.836 to be in git or i'm going to drive myself insane but i didn't want all of that 00:34:49.836 --> 00:34:54.276 to be public because it was going to be like an agent doing stuff and I was 00:34:54.276 --> 00:34:57.116 going to want to be like reviewing its changes and that kind of stuff. 00:34:57.276 --> 00:35:01.416 I wanted something that had the features of a forge, you know, 00:35:01.536 --> 00:35:06.836 not just code, but like actually something where I could do PRs and go review 00:35:06.836 --> 00:35:11.116 code and maybe in a way that had a structured API. And so I started looking into Forge. 00:35:11.276 --> 00:35:14.596 I like all of those things. Yeah, you're right. Something where you could have 00:35:14.596 --> 00:35:15.996 pull requests because why not? 00:35:16.096 --> 00:35:20.016 I mean, if you're going to lean into a workflow to manage your infrastructure, might as well. 00:35:20.196 --> 00:35:23.516 And something that has an API means that you can integrate it with agent workflow. 00:35:24.669 --> 00:35:27.969 Uh so how are you running it and how far have you gotten with it. 00:35:27.969 --> 00:35:30.849 Yeah so i've been running for a little while the bare for 00:35:30.849 --> 00:35:33.809 joe stuff's been working great it has really nice nix os support 00:35:33.809 --> 00:35:37.309 so like the abbreviated history is there's 00:35:37.309 --> 00:35:40.889 like a really simple tool called gogs uh gogs that 00:35:40.889 --> 00:35:44.049 is super small tiny like just a clean little ui and 00:35:44.049 --> 00:35:46.949 then at some point like 10 years ago that got 00:35:46.949 --> 00:35:49.789 forked into getia um or get t however you're 00:35:49.789 --> 00:35:52.669 supposed to say that and then there's been drama there with like 00:35:52.669 --> 00:35:55.389 the company and the people behind it and so 00:35:55.389 --> 00:35:59.669 that eventually led to a soft fork of for joe um which is also the thing that 00:35:59.669 --> 00:36:04.349 is powering and developed by the codeberg folks and then at some point that 00:36:04.349 --> 00:36:08.749 soft fork became a hard folk hard fork so there's a lot of sort of vague compatibility 00:36:08.749 --> 00:36:13.929 um but all kind of going in their own direction i see um but what's neat about it is it is, 00:36:14.689 --> 00:36:19.889 it really is kind of just like as close to an open source github in a box as i think you could want. 00:36:20.009 --> 00:36:23.549 If you go with something like GitHub or GitLab, it's very enterprise-y. 00:36:23.969 --> 00:36:27.609 And Forgeo felt kind of just right for HomeLab, self-hosted, 00:36:27.769 --> 00:36:32.269 maybe a bit of actual infrastructure, it could scale up. 00:36:32.489 --> 00:36:35.909 I mean, it sounds like the Fedora team is moving from, or some of Fedora at 00:36:35.909 --> 00:36:40.169 least, is moving from Azure, their own Forge, to Forgeo. 00:36:40.269 --> 00:36:43.149 So it can scale up to pretty reasonable-sized organizations, 00:36:43.149 --> 00:36:48.849 but it's also still just a Go binary that can use SQLite, or it can scale up 00:36:48.849 --> 00:36:52.469 to like being deployed like I'm doing it with Postgres and a NixOS module because 00:36:52.469 --> 00:36:54.109 it has great NixOS support built in too. 00:36:55.087 --> 00:36:58.467 I mean, the interface, as you're speaking, I'm kind of going through it, 00:36:58.647 --> 00:37:03.507 it looks like you're looking at a GitHub project when you go to somebody with 00:37:03.507 --> 00:37:04.947 a proper readme and all of that. 00:37:05.607 --> 00:37:09.427 Yeah, and if you're used to using GitHub, you'll have no problems adapting. 00:37:10.087 --> 00:37:15.387 It doesn't have everything. Like, in particular, it does not have guests or snippets. 00:37:15.487 --> 00:37:18.767 I think there's a PR that's in progress, but I don't think it's merged yet. 00:37:19.087 --> 00:37:20.307 So, you don't get everything. 00:37:20.527 --> 00:37:23.587 Well, OpenGist is simple enough that I can still see running that as a side 00:37:23.587 --> 00:37:25.927 service. The big one for me would be actions. 00:37:26.807 --> 00:37:31.427 Yes, and so it does have actions, and I've been working on setting that up actually 00:37:31.427 --> 00:37:33.707 somewhat just this week. So I finally got it going. 00:37:33.987 --> 00:37:38.147 What's cool is you have, they're like, they're not necessarily GitHub compatible, 00:37:38.187 --> 00:37:42.647 but they are very GitHub familiar. So they are similar into the actions format, 00:37:42.847 --> 00:37:46.167 similar YAML files, and they have a similar runner concept. 00:37:46.427 --> 00:37:48.027 So I guess... 00:37:48.899 --> 00:37:54.659 So Action is, it's like a reusable piece of code that runs on the Forgeo server, 00:37:54.939 --> 00:37:57.179 or Forgeo, or however you say it, or on GitHub, right? 00:37:57.379 --> 00:38:01.359 So could you, do I have that right? Like, can we explain what an Action is real 00:38:01.359 --> 00:38:02.199 quick before we get too far? 00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:06.979 And so this is connects to sort of the CI, CD, continuous integration, continuous delivery. 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:11.379 And GitLab probably like gets some credit for being one of the first forges 00:38:11.379 --> 00:38:14.759 that really built this in with their own GitLab CI stuff. 00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:19.099 And the idea is there's just a lot of automation. If you want the code to be 00:38:19.099 --> 00:38:23.459 the source of truth, then it makes sense to drive stuff as events off the code. 00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:26.779 And so if you want to push, then, you know, maybe you're pushing to a new PR 00:38:26.779 --> 00:38:30.359 and you want it to go run the tests for you automatically and let you know if they pass. 00:38:30.359 --> 00:38:34.039 Or maybe you have a lot of contributors of different levels or different knowledge, 00:38:34.059 --> 00:38:37.259 and you want to have, you know, run some linting and formatting checks to make 00:38:37.259 --> 00:38:39.939 sure that random PRs meet the standards of the project. 00:38:40.099 --> 00:38:43.859 And that can scale all the way to, you've merged your PR, and now you build 00:38:43.859 --> 00:38:46.559 your official package, and you push it to, or your container, 00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:50.759 and you push it to the registry, or you release it as like a release or a tag. 00:38:51.139 --> 00:38:54.079 Or that can all go all the way to trigger the deployment code, right? 00:38:54.139 --> 00:38:56.819 And so this is how a lot of the community website, Brent, you 00:38:56.819 --> 00:39:00.039 were talking about our great community powered website and it uses 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:02.879 actions right so it'll go when we have our 00:39:02.879 --> 00:39:05.579 scraper run it pulls it goes and scrapes and if it finds 00:39:05.579 --> 00:39:09.839 new episodes it makes a pr with that and the pr can kick off actions to go build 00:39:09.839 --> 00:39:13.379 the site and make sure it builds properly and on on some of them it can even 00:39:13.379 --> 00:39:16.839 go spin up a whole preview website that you can go look at so you can really 00:39:16.839 --> 00:39:21.359 scale it from just run like a basic linter on your code all the way up to like 00:39:21.359 --> 00:39:24.299 go do stateful deploys, depending on what you want to do. 00:39:24.439 --> 00:39:28.519 But that's the little hook is basically you have some kind of way to trigger 00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:32.099 it, be that a push or a code change or some action in the repo, 00:39:32.279 --> 00:39:34.259 or a manual trigger or web hook. 00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:39.579 And it is an automation that is instantiated with the state from your repo, 00:39:39.579 --> 00:39:42.579 so that it already has the code and it can do stuff with it. 00:39:42.975 --> 00:39:46.995 And I have like a basic one that I've been using a couple of things that I haven't, 00:39:46.995 --> 00:39:50.335 I really haven't explored it much, but I've been finding it very useful in that 00:39:50.335 --> 00:39:55.735 I have a couple of projects that I'm downstream of and I pull them and I build 00:39:55.735 --> 00:39:57.695 packages for them using a GitHub action. 00:39:57.915 --> 00:40:01.815 So then when I update my local system, it just pulls from my repository instead 00:40:01.815 --> 00:40:05.075 of the upstream one, which has like all this other, all these other dependencies 00:40:05.075 --> 00:40:06.835 and crap that it auto installs that I don't need. 00:40:07.015 --> 00:40:09.475 But it just helps with, you know, just small things like that. 00:40:09.555 --> 00:40:11.935 So I have a package ready for me to go when I do an update and it runs like 00:40:11.935 --> 00:40:13.935 twice a day. That's kind of what I'm looking for. 00:40:14.275 --> 00:40:18.235 Exactly. And you can go, right, like, I have one that abuses it like a cron 00:40:18.235 --> 00:40:22.375 job to go scrape bookmarks I do and ping a Slack channel. 00:40:22.835 --> 00:40:26.595 But yeah, you can also have it where, like, this is super useful for Nix packages 00:40:26.595 --> 00:40:30.075 where you can have it automatically go check and see if there's been a new released 00:40:30.075 --> 00:40:35.255 version upstream and go make a PR that automatically does the update and updates all the pins for you. 00:40:35.435 --> 00:40:38.155 So yeah, I was looking for something like that, especially because I've been 00:40:38.155 --> 00:40:39.235 playing more with setting up. 00:40:39.795 --> 00:40:43.955 Well, there's a lot of ways to do it, but some kind of Nix build host or a Nix cache. 00:40:44.415 --> 00:40:47.715 If you combine those things, then you could have a Nix cache that your systems 00:40:47.715 --> 00:40:52.235 are on, and maybe you have a powerful system, and you can register on that system 00:40:52.235 --> 00:40:54.875 a runner for your CI system. 00:40:54.875 --> 00:40:58.395 So it can run on whatever's running the Forgeo instance, but it can also run 00:40:58.395 --> 00:41:01.675 on whatever other system that has access over the network to be able to dispatch it. 00:41:01.695 --> 00:41:04.895 Cool. Is that just like a container or something, or an agent you run on another machine? 00:41:05.075 --> 00:41:10.095 Exactly, yes. You can have it run native if you want. So that's kind of neat 00:41:10.095 --> 00:41:12.655 because for some Nix stuff, like Nix can be the sandbox. 00:41:12.835 --> 00:41:15.915 They don't necessarily need a whole build container. But for other stuff, 00:41:16.055 --> 00:41:20.015 you might want it to have an Ubuntu base or a Nix OS base or use your own custom 00:41:20.015 --> 00:41:21.435 container. So it can do both. 00:41:21.675 --> 00:41:25.095 And so you can do that on the host that's running the forge or you can do that 00:41:25.095 --> 00:41:26.555 on some other networked host. 00:41:26.735 --> 00:41:29.195 And so you can set up a workflow, which is what I've been working on. 00:41:29.275 --> 00:41:30.195 It doesn't totally work yet. 00:41:30.295 --> 00:41:33.235 This hopefully will be finished somewhat soon, but I got distracted by other 00:41:33.235 --> 00:41:36.275 projects, as you guys well know. but the idea would be, 00:41:37.057 --> 00:41:40.977 There are some stuff like some of my VPSs that it's like, I just don't really 00:41:40.977 --> 00:41:44.357 need to be building them on there. It works. It's fine. It's just not particularly fast. 00:41:44.517 --> 00:41:49.557 And I make all the changes in code anyway. So why not go have something that 00:41:49.557 --> 00:41:54.317 spins up, tests it, I can add more tests over time. If all that works, then go push it. 00:41:54.677 --> 00:41:58.817 And then either the CI can trigger it automatically, or if I want to do it myself, 00:41:59.077 --> 00:42:03.457 or tell a bot or whatever, then on the next rebuild, not only has it already 00:42:03.457 --> 00:42:06.157 been validated, but then it can just go pull the build files. 00:42:07.737 --> 00:42:11.357 So, this topic, I think, is coming up more and more. 00:42:11.577 --> 00:42:17.717 And I think one of the reasons it's growing is because there is a discomfort 00:42:17.717 --> 00:42:21.397 with this dichotomy of forces that are at play with GitHub. 00:42:22.197 --> 00:42:25.197 And there is this network effect that github benefits 00:42:25.197 --> 00:42:28.797 from that is extremely strong and you see it in community you 00:42:28.797 --> 00:42:31.957 see it in tool adoption etc etc etc right and 00:42:31.957 --> 00:42:36.257 then on the other side of that there's this equally strong force if not becoming 00:42:36.257 --> 00:42:40.997 stronger of in shitification and it's always it goes this way with all of these 00:42:40.997 --> 00:42:45.377 commercial platforms they you know they always kind of start at the really good 00:42:45.377 --> 00:42:49.037 end of the spectrum and then over time due to corporate strategy taxes, 00:42:49.337 --> 00:42:51.697 they tend to bend towards inshittification. 00:42:51.877 --> 00:42:56.937 And I think there's a lot of people concerned that GitHub is going that direction. 00:42:57.017 --> 00:42:59.937 And you mentioned there was drama in the past with 4G0, 00:43:00.769 --> 00:43:03.189 Do you feel like that stuff is settled? So like if I'm moving, 00:43:03.389 --> 00:43:08.369 like if I'm packing my bags, is this somewhere I can move into long term, do you think, Wes? 00:43:09.029 --> 00:43:14.369 Yeah, I think so. I would say you should think about like which pieces you're 00:43:14.369 --> 00:43:15.689 trying to replace and for what. 00:43:15.829 --> 00:43:20.289 So like right now, I'm just using it as like a private backend forge for my 00:43:20.289 --> 00:43:22.949 own stuff on my own private infrastructure and mesh. 00:43:23.209 --> 00:43:27.389 But there are some things like you could obviously expose it publicly with a 00:43:27.389 --> 00:43:29.229 proxy or a port or whatever you want to do. 00:43:29.229 --> 00:43:32.969 And they're working on some kinds of federation uh 00:43:32.969 --> 00:43:36.109 they even have some nlnet sponsorship on this i think to like be 00:43:36.109 --> 00:43:39.149 able to federate for joe instances so that's you 00:43:39.149 --> 00:43:42.209 know that's something that's coming and you can do custom actions 00:43:42.209 --> 00:43:45.369 but they have some there's like a forge uh for joe 00:43:45.369 --> 00:43:48.389 sync or something where you can at least do one-way sync 00:43:48.389 --> 00:43:51.209 so like you can do your primary development in your private forge 00:43:51.209 --> 00:43:54.169 but then push to github as sort 00:43:54.169 --> 00:43:57.709 of a secondary thing whether you want to share that more publicly or as a sort 00:43:57.709 --> 00:44:00.429 of cheap backup because that was one of the things is like there are some things 00:44:00.429 --> 00:44:04.349 i might keep on github because it's primarily dominated about sharing or the 00:44:04.349 --> 00:44:07.549 social thing but there's a lot of stuff where it's like i want it on there for 00:44:07.549 --> 00:44:12.009 easy access or for reference but like i could do all the primary stuff locally 00:44:12.009 --> 00:44:13.009 and then just sync it later. 00:44:13.009 --> 00:44:16.849 That sounds like quite a nice workflow actually yeah. 00:44:16.849 --> 00:44:20.269 I don't have it all ironed out to be clear but uh it seems like a lot of other 00:44:20.269 --> 00:44:23.129 people which is where i'm pulling a lot of this from is just there's been a 00:44:23.129 --> 00:44:25.709 lot of folks experimenting with these types of workflows. 00:44:25.929 --> 00:44:30.029 And it seems like there's between Codeberg itself and Private Forgeo and the 00:44:30.029 --> 00:44:32.309 possible Federation, there's just a lot cooking there right now. 00:44:33.111 --> 00:44:37.811 Brent, on that topic of it seems like we're entering this, where we're bending 00:44:37.811 --> 00:44:42.171 more and more towards incentivification, there was an article that the Software 00:44:42.171 --> 00:44:46.731 Conservancy published, and they start with something that I thought maybe we 00:44:46.731 --> 00:44:47.951 probably could have opened with, 00:44:48.251 --> 00:44:50.491 you know, if I were to plan this a little better. 00:44:50.651 --> 00:44:54.031 But moving off of GitHub for some people, it's not an easy task. 00:44:54.171 --> 00:44:55.651 Like there's some people in the chat room, like PJ, he's like, 00:44:55.691 --> 00:44:58.191 oh, not really, wouldn't be hard for me to move. I'm not using it at all. 00:44:58.351 --> 00:44:59.831 That is easy. But other people. 00:45:00.031 --> 00:45:00.911 Are deeply entrenched. 00:45:01.271 --> 00:45:04.871 That is a deeper problem. And the Conservancy is trying to make a pitch here. 00:45:05.291 --> 00:45:08.231 Yeah, I would call this almost a call to action this day here. 00:45:08.471 --> 00:45:15.371 Since June 2022, we've been encouraging and helping FOSS developers to give up on GitHub. 00:45:16.151 --> 00:45:19.971 We realize, though, this is not an easy task. GitHub is ubiquitous, 00:45:20.091 --> 00:45:23.951 though through their effective marketing, GitHub has convinced free and open 00:45:23.951 --> 00:45:29.731 source software developers that GitHub is the best and even the only place for FOSS development. 00:45:29.731 --> 00:45:37.271 However, as a proprietary trade secret tool, GitHub itself is the very opposite of FOSS. 00:45:37.531 --> 00:45:41.691 By contrast, Git was designed specifically to replace a proprietary tool, 00:45:41.831 --> 00:45:48.751 BitKeeper, and to make FOSS development distributed using FOSS tools and without a centralized site. 00:45:49.031 --> 00:45:54.291 GitHub has distorted Git, creating add-ons and features that turn a distributed, 00:45:54.551 --> 00:45:59.431 egalitarian, and FOSS system into a centralized proprietary site. 00:45:59.731 --> 00:46:05.491 And all those add-on features are controlled by a single for-profit company, Microsoft. 00:46:05.971 --> 00:46:10.851 By staying on GitHub, established FOSS communities bring newcomers to this proprietary 00:46:10.851 --> 00:46:16.591 platform, expanding GitHub's reach and limiting the imaginations of the next 00:46:16.591 --> 00:46:18.911 generation of FOSS developers. 00:46:20.817 --> 00:46:26.517 They give other reasons here in this article for why a lot of the anti-GitHub 00:46:26.517 --> 00:46:29.637 community wants to stay away from Microsoft. 00:46:29.757 --> 00:46:36.377 And there's one in particular that I think our audience would really feel hits home. 00:46:37.137 --> 00:46:40.277 And I wonder if this hit for you both as well. 00:46:40.457 --> 00:46:45.417 They say Microsoft has escalated the incorporation of its for-profit Copilot 00:46:45.417 --> 00:46:49.977 product. The Copilot banner now incorporates many different proprietary so-called 00:46:49.977 --> 00:46:51.717 artificial intelligence products. 00:46:52.017 --> 00:46:56.657 However, the first Copilot product was designed to automatically generate code 00:46:56.657 --> 00:47:01.337 interactively for developers, and that feature is still pushed on GitHub users. 00:47:01.617 --> 00:47:06.097 Copilot AI model was trained, according to GitHub's own statements, 00:47:06.777 --> 00:47:11.477 exclusively with projects that were hosted on GitHub, including many licensed 00:47:11.477 --> 00:47:13.317 under copy left licenses. 00:47:14.077 --> 00:47:18.397 Microsoft even admits that there was one document that they encountered and 00:47:18.397 --> 00:47:25.117 ignored a whopping 700,000 different times during training, and that was the 00:47:25.117 --> 00:47:27.617 GNU General Public License. 00:47:28.077 --> 00:47:33.017 Most of these projects are not in the public domain. They are licensed under FOSS licenses. 00:47:33.017 --> 00:47:37.617 These licenses have requirements, including proper author attribution, 00:47:37.877 --> 00:47:42.997 and in cases of copyleft licenses, they sometimes require the works based on 00:47:42.997 --> 00:47:48.057 it, or then incorporate that software to be licensed under the exact same copyleft 00:47:48.057 --> 00:47:49.817 license as the prior work. 00:47:49.917 --> 00:47:56.117 Microsoft and GitHub have been ignoring these license requirements for quite a few years now. 00:47:56.117 --> 00:48:01.797 Their only defense of these actions was a still-unretracted statement by their 00:48:01.797 --> 00:48:07.917 former CEO in which he falsely claims that unsettled law on this topic is actually quite settled. 00:48:08.677 --> 00:48:13.037 In addition to the legal issues, the ethical implications of GitHub's choice 00:48:13.037 --> 00:48:19.017 to use copyleft code in the service of creating proprietary software is a grave 00:48:19.017 --> 00:48:20.997 one. So the debate here is. 00:48:22.333 --> 00:48:29.633 Is it okay to use over 700,000 open source projects to fund their, 00:48:29.633 --> 00:48:32.413 well, business model at this point? 00:48:32.653 --> 00:48:37.593 And this is something when Microsoft first bought GitHub, many of us imagined 00:48:37.593 --> 00:48:44.333 the dark ways that that could go negatively against open source ethos. 00:48:44.533 --> 00:48:48.673 And at the time, we didn't really have answers. But I think you could argue 00:48:48.673 --> 00:48:51.093 this is one of the reasons that we were hesitant back then. 00:48:51.533 --> 00:48:55.593 I think maybe an interesting way to frame this, a model to use, 00:48:55.693 --> 00:49:03.553 would be if they were properly doing attribution, would that solve the majority of the problem? 00:49:03.733 --> 00:49:07.873 Is the issue not that they're using code that's open source and copyleft, 00:49:07.913 --> 00:49:11.653 but the issue is that when they generate that code, if it's close to the exact 00:49:11.653 --> 00:49:13.593 original code, they're not attributing it? 00:49:13.733 --> 00:49:16.453 I don't want to get nuanced into like, well, if it's changed by 25%, 00:49:16.453 --> 00:49:20.233 but I just wonder if that is the problem. If it's just simply, 00:49:20.233 --> 00:49:21.873 is the core issue attribution? 00:49:22.013 --> 00:49:28.513 I think the argument would be the issue is the licensing of the product that they're using. 00:49:30.536 --> 00:49:31.856 All of this code into. 00:49:32.276 --> 00:49:35.956 Well, but that doesn't make sense, right? Because if you post a free software 00:49:35.956 --> 00:49:41.656 code on Stack Exchange, it doesn't matter if the Stack Exchange backend is running on Windows or not. 00:49:41.996 --> 00:49:45.476 I think Brent means what gets output from, not runs Copilot. 00:49:45.696 --> 00:49:47.276 Okay. All right. What do you think, Wes? 00:49:47.476 --> 00:49:50.496 I mean, there's certainly like license fights to be had for sure, 00:49:50.536 --> 00:49:53.356 but there is that whole uncomfortable question of like, well, 00:49:53.416 --> 00:49:56.896 how much learning and what counts as learning do we allow, right? 00:49:56.996 --> 00:50:01.616 Because just about every single person who's ever contributed to copyleft went 00:50:01.616 --> 00:50:04.216 on to contribute to other differently licensed projects. 00:50:04.516 --> 00:50:09.056 That's just how it works, right? And so we can argue if the scale of this matters, 00:50:09.056 --> 00:50:14.396 we can argue if LLMs count as learning when we're doing the statistical modeling with them or not. 00:50:14.496 --> 00:50:17.796 But I think for us, right, there's one thing on the giant scale, 00:50:17.876 --> 00:50:24.116 but as individual users, the VEM training on my open source or public code was 00:50:24.116 --> 00:50:25.956 not Not the thing that I cared about necessarily. 00:50:26.356 --> 00:50:30.236 I think for me, it'd be more about control and knowing when that was happening. 00:50:30.556 --> 00:50:35.536 And where GitHub in particular is in an awkward spot is like there's the stuff in public. 00:50:35.756 --> 00:50:38.496 And I think at this point, you just sort of have to accept that if you put something 00:50:38.496 --> 00:50:43.636 on the available internet, it will be ingested for purposes unknown and uncontrollable to you. 00:50:44.076 --> 00:50:48.336 But then for people like me who are not paying GitHub, but still have some stuff 00:50:48.336 --> 00:50:50.796 that's private on there, that's where it gets murkier for me. 00:50:50.876 --> 00:50:54.556 Because like if I'm a company that has like an actual contract with them, 00:50:54.716 --> 00:50:55.696 that's a whole other thing. 00:50:55.836 --> 00:51:00.776 That has its own sort of risk and uncertainty that's quantifiable by lawyers I employ and all that. 00:51:00.896 --> 00:51:04.956 But for me, without that and with no lawyers to deploy, it's sort of like, 00:51:05.016 --> 00:51:08.536 well, I want to have better boundaries of what do I consider I'm just sending 00:51:08.536 --> 00:51:10.216 off into the ether in the commons? 00:51:10.356 --> 00:51:12.636 What do I think is actually private and under my control? 00:51:12.916 --> 00:51:14.876 So that's the framework I'm currently using. 00:51:15.856 --> 00:51:20.816 So would like a user toggle satisfy you? You know, if you could go and say like 00:51:20.816 --> 00:51:24.056 a checkbox, because maybe they have this, I don't know, they just don't train on my data. 00:51:25.585 --> 00:51:29.925 Does that solve that problem? I mean, these don't seem like particularly unsolvable problems. 00:51:30.065 --> 00:51:32.685 Well, no, so for that, I think that's the trust thing, right? 00:51:32.685 --> 00:51:33.825 That would go to the contract. 00:51:34.085 --> 00:51:36.605 Because I don't have any audits. I don't have any enforcement mechanisms there. 00:51:36.625 --> 00:51:37.445 Oh, so for me. 00:51:37.565 --> 00:51:42.005 That's where I, if I don't want them to train on it, I don't want it on their platform. 00:51:42.205 --> 00:51:44.305 Yeah, that I agree with. Yeah, that's... 00:51:44.305 --> 00:51:47.745 I mean, I'm totally down for them adding that. I think that might help, right? 00:51:47.825 --> 00:51:52.125 They're giving people more control or at least the illusion or some level of 00:51:52.125 --> 00:51:56.025 control to have more say in that, I think would be helpful and would be an act 00:51:56.025 --> 00:51:59.445 of good faith what it actually does in terms of real consequences and how it 00:51:59.445 --> 00:52:00.945 changes things. I don't know. 00:52:01.165 --> 00:52:04.285 I agree. And I think the best solution is to just move off the platform. 00:52:04.285 --> 00:52:08.405 If this is a concern of yours and for private stuff, I think that does make 00:52:08.405 --> 00:52:10.785 sense for stuff that I was going to share publicly with the audience. 00:52:10.905 --> 00:52:14.505 Anyways, I don't really care if they train on it. It's just not really been my complaint. 00:52:14.725 --> 00:52:15.825 I also find that the, 00:52:17.059 --> 00:52:21.859 The co-pilot on the GitHub site has not actually been that annoying to me. 00:52:21.999 --> 00:52:24.059 I don't actually edit that much code on there or anything, but it's not like 00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:27.279 it's constantly injected in when I go look at GitHub or use it. 00:52:27.399 --> 00:52:31.859 I'm sorry. People are editing code directly on the GitHub.com website. 00:52:32.439 --> 00:52:32.999 Oh, yeah. 00:52:33.239 --> 00:52:34.399 They deserve to be annoying. 00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:35.559 They have a whole editor. 00:52:36.039 --> 00:52:39.359 I guess I've seen that, but I didn't think anybody actually used it. 00:52:39.539 --> 00:52:40.819 That just seems crazy to me. 00:52:41.639 --> 00:52:46.459 So what I was going to say is I find the copilot being built into VS Code but 00:52:46.459 --> 00:52:48.779 still requiring a login to be way more 00:52:48.779 --> 00:52:51.119 annoying than anything that they're injecting over on the GitHub side. 00:52:51.259 --> 00:52:54.059 True, true. Yeah, there's a lot of strategy taxes around GitHub that I find very annoying. 00:52:54.319 --> 00:52:58.579 I will just as a quick aside, maybe I should leave it, but I'll just say. 00:52:58.579 --> 00:53:03.439 I just think if you were to go back in time 13 years ago and play this segment 00:53:03.439 --> 00:53:08.979 back for us back then, where we're sitting here and we're preening about intellectual 00:53:08.979 --> 00:53:12.539 property and protecting our licenses and our copyrights. 00:53:12.619 --> 00:53:16.819 I just think it's so funny coming from a community that used to be about breaking 00:53:16.819 --> 00:53:23.239 the Tivos and used to be about sharing, you know, sharing things. 00:53:23.239 --> 00:53:27.099 I don't want to say pirating music and TV and movies, but a lot of people in 00:53:27.099 --> 00:53:31.399 this community engage in those activities and have since the days of Napster 00:53:31.399 --> 00:53:33.399 and have no qualms about it. 00:53:33.899 --> 00:53:36.879 But then this topic comes up and all of a sudden now this is where they've decided 00:53:36.879 --> 00:53:41.339 this is the hill they're going to die on after a decade plus of stealing music, TV shows and movies. 00:53:41.499 --> 00:53:44.619 I just find it ironic, especially from a community that in the past has been 00:53:44.619 --> 00:53:49.639 sort of anti-copyright, anti-licenses that prevent them from hacking things, 00:53:50.139 --> 00:53:53.039 you know, proprietary blobs and things like that. And now all of a sudden, 00:53:54.045 --> 00:53:56.405 We're like the people that are like pro-proprietary information. 00:53:56.405 --> 00:53:57.485 I just think it's pretty ironic. 00:53:58.365 --> 00:54:01.325 But people have the right to, you know, do it, choose whatever they want. 00:54:01.385 --> 00:54:05.325 And I think that's why some solutions around self-hosting your own GitHub alternative 00:54:05.325 --> 00:54:10.185 are viable. And I think it sounds like for me, for Geo, if I can figure out how to say it. 00:54:10.765 --> 00:54:14.625 Could be about- For Geo. I guess it's Esperanto for Forge. So there you go. 00:54:14.845 --> 00:54:15.005 Okay. 00:54:15.065 --> 00:54:18.145 And yeah, I do think there are some arguments to be made around the scale and 00:54:18.145 --> 00:54:23.105 the like, I think a lot of the uncomfortableness is from the asymmetry of scale 00:54:23.105 --> 00:54:25.285 and resources and this feeling of like, 00:54:25.405 --> 00:54:30.005 I am doing this stuff and I wanted to benefit humanity and the commons or other 00:54:30.005 --> 00:54:34.565 people or whatever, but I didn't necessarily want to have that be underwriting 00:54:34.565 --> 00:54:38.145 your entire business model without you giving back. And so there's totally legitimate 00:54:38.145 --> 00:54:38.985 things there, but you're right. 00:54:39.245 --> 00:54:43.145 We should also probably strive to make sure that we can find consistent frameworks 00:54:43.145 --> 00:54:46.825 to evaluate this stuff because it's changing fast and we want to figure out 00:54:46.825 --> 00:54:47.725 how to think about it well. 00:54:47.725 --> 00:54:50.205 I agree. I don't think we should lose sight though, that even though they, 00:54:50.345 --> 00:54:52.305 if they have indexed and they've rolled over and all of this, 00:54:52.425 --> 00:54:56.905 that information has been made available to all of us extremely reasonably. 00:54:57.125 --> 00:55:00.365 And we have access to it through a lot of free tools now that are making all 00:55:00.365 --> 00:55:03.025 of us faster builders and we're building more things. 00:55:03.665 --> 00:55:07.685 So if your effort was towards making humanity better and making more information 00:55:07.685 --> 00:55:10.285 freely available to the people, that has been achieved. 00:55:10.385 --> 00:55:14.425 And now more people are accessing and utilizing it, maybe not directly through 00:55:14.425 --> 00:55:16.265 you and the way you want them to consume it. 00:55:16.365 --> 00:55:20.185 But it is happening at a much larger scale than it was even six months ago. 00:55:20.265 --> 00:55:24.105 And the amount of free software that is being produced and published on platforms 00:55:24.105 --> 00:55:27.305 like GitHub is growing exponentially like a hockey stick right now. 00:55:27.745 --> 00:55:31.945 And so in a way, it has made that information more accessible to people. 00:55:31.945 --> 00:55:34.945 And so if at the core of what you're trying to do when you create something 00:55:34.945 --> 00:55:39.645 as free software is improve the information and access to humanity that is being 00:55:39.645 --> 00:55:42.565 achieved, you may not like the means in which it's being achieved. 00:55:43.494 --> 00:55:47.734 But you can't deny it's happening. Just not justifying it. I'm just trying to 00:55:47.734 --> 00:55:49.214 say there's two sides to all of this. 00:55:49.414 --> 00:55:52.514 And people should have their options to opt out and not participate. 00:55:52.814 --> 00:55:54.614 And I'd like to hear what the audience suggests. 00:55:55.274 --> 00:55:58.394 If there's something better than we've come up with, please let us know. 00:55:58.534 --> 00:56:01.854 Because I think this is going to become a bigger and bigger deal as people make 00:56:01.854 --> 00:56:04.374 their decisions here. Because this ain't slowing down, right? 00:56:04.554 --> 00:56:06.934 That bend is continuing. 00:56:07.254 --> 00:56:09.534 And the corporate strategy won't slow down. 00:56:14.934 --> 00:56:19.594 We have an extra special baller booster here, our dear, lovable, 00:56:19.934 --> 00:56:23.034 squishy PJ, Producer Jeff. 00:56:28.654 --> 00:56:33.994 Producer Jeff sent in 22,222 Satoshis. 00:56:34.814 --> 00:56:39.674 Says, I am a forgetful booster. Pin your tabs, Brent. 00:56:40.214 --> 00:56:42.694 Yeah, Brantley, how come you won't ever pin your tabs over there? 00:56:42.694 --> 00:56:46.394 You know what? We just want you to gosh darn pin your tabs. Oh, yeah. All right? 00:56:54.372 --> 00:56:59.272 Oh, I meant to tell you earlier, I pinned my first tab in years this week. 00:56:59.272 --> 00:57:00.252 What? What? What? 00:57:00.332 --> 00:57:00.932 I did. 00:57:01.112 --> 00:57:02.832 What was it? Are you willing to share? 00:57:03.032 --> 00:57:06.072 The song really got me inspired to change my ways. 00:57:06.232 --> 00:57:11.652 And I pinned an OpenCode web UI tab because I figured that would be useful. 00:57:12.452 --> 00:57:15.592 I have many, many questions. Maybe we'll get into that at some point in the future. 00:57:16.072 --> 00:57:17.672 Huh. Okay. All right. 00:57:17.672 --> 00:57:20.332 He's going to make us radically rethink our relationship with pinned tabs. 00:57:20.472 --> 00:57:21.732 I don't know if I'm ready for it. 00:57:21.912 --> 00:57:26.292 I don't. Oh, geez. I got to have lunch first, I think. Speaking of lunch, 00:57:26.432 --> 00:57:29.752 Derivation Dengus came in with 21,633 sats. 00:57:32.192 --> 00:57:35.232 I'm loving these AI episodes, especially the practical AI tips. 00:57:35.372 --> 00:57:38.752 I've been pretty extensive on my NixOS home lab, so I've been trying to build 00:57:38.752 --> 00:57:41.932 systems that agents can safely take on some of the maintenance for. 00:57:42.252 --> 00:57:45.372 And, you know, things like that. There's still a lot of work to do and a lot 00:57:45.372 --> 00:57:48.492 to work out, but these episodes always give me good ideas. Keep them coming. 00:57:48.992 --> 00:57:53.032 We did get a good amount of feedback. We did. On the emails, 00:57:53.432 --> 00:57:58.592 it was almost 50-50 split with one extra email coming in to the don't talk about 00:57:58.592 --> 00:58:00.812 it so much side on the AI stuff. 00:58:00.952 --> 00:58:03.712 So it was good feedback, and we're still reviewing it all. 00:58:03.932 --> 00:58:06.752 Please do keep telling us your opinions on it. If you're catching this after 00:58:06.752 --> 00:58:07.572 the fact, we still want to know. 00:58:08.612 --> 00:58:11.892 Yeah, and I like how Dingus here points out, too, I think, something that is 00:58:11.892 --> 00:58:14.992 relevant to our last topic, which is whatever you think about how they were 00:58:14.992 --> 00:58:18.592 made, they're here now, and you can use these tools to improve your own open 00:58:18.592 --> 00:58:23.252 source work, your own home lab, and or easier escape from proprietary services. 00:58:23.712 --> 00:58:26.972 Nothing like an LLM script to help you do your Google takeout, that kind of thing. 00:58:27.312 --> 00:58:27.792 There you go. 00:58:28.012 --> 00:58:31.012 That has been my entire week. I will just divulge. 00:58:31.712 --> 00:58:40.252 Ooh, I didn't even know that. Well, our dear Magnolia Mayhem comes in with 2,345 SATs. 00:58:42.583 --> 00:58:44.643 Two males in a row. Nice. 00:58:45.303 --> 00:58:49.943 And a Knicks Book Machine giveaway follow-up. I love this. 00:58:50.143 --> 00:58:53.063 I finally got my wife to sit down and use it. 00:58:53.223 --> 00:58:55.843 There wasn't that much information that I could glean from the experience, 00:58:55.843 --> 00:58:59.383 but that's mostly because there wasn't anything that she ran into. 00:58:59.643 --> 00:59:02.783 Wow. I gave her the prompt of, imagine you're someone who needs a job, 00:59:02.863 --> 00:59:05.603 and this just got set down in front of you as a laptop. 00:59:05.803 --> 00:59:06.683 Gave her the prompt. 00:59:07.203 --> 00:59:10.943 She immediately just went to Indeed.com. I can't even say she was impressed, 00:59:11.123 --> 00:59:16.143 because to her, it was just a computer, which I think is maybe the best response I could have gotten. 00:59:16.323 --> 00:59:20.043 From her perspective, Linux is my i3 desktop. She didn't even know she was on Linux. 00:59:20.303 --> 00:59:23.443 Best report I could give, up next, grandma. 00:59:23.743 --> 00:59:24.043 Oh! 00:59:24.343 --> 00:59:25.223 Oh, yeah. 00:59:25.643 --> 00:59:29.323 Let us know how that goes. Interesting. You know, that is probably the best 00:59:29.323 --> 00:59:30.823 report possible, I suppose. 00:59:31.963 --> 00:59:34.003 Thank you, Mr. Mayhem. Appreciate that. 00:59:34.923 --> 00:59:39.703 Well, we have a couple boosts here from Elray. El Rey 741, 00:59:42.475 --> 00:59:46.715 While I can appreciate other listeners' sentiments, and initially for a little 00:59:46.715 --> 00:59:50.995 while I agreed, that there was too much AI conversation in Linux Unplugged, 00:59:51.975 --> 00:59:56.275 but then I reflected on it a while back, and I have really appreciated the pragmatic 00:59:56.275 --> 00:59:59.975 and fun approach JBS has taken to the AI topic. 01:00:00.215 --> 01:00:03.035 For a while, you've used it in the background and not brought it up much, 01:00:03.035 --> 01:00:06.535 because I'm assuming it wasn't as applicable to the wider audience, 01:00:06.915 --> 01:00:09.115 for example, the song generation that we do. 01:00:09.835 --> 01:00:14.135 But as you found things had greater impact to your day life, 01:00:14.295 --> 01:00:17.415 you've brought more intentional topics to us, the audience. 01:00:17.815 --> 01:00:18.875 Oh, thank you. I think that's fair. 01:00:19.015 --> 01:00:23.435 I also wanted to throw out there that I've loved the members bootleg feed update 01:00:23.435 --> 01:00:25.075 having the video enclosure. 01:00:25.495 --> 01:00:29.075 Life has been crazy busy, so being able to see the amazing studio, 01:00:29.355 --> 01:00:33.875 your facial reactions, and friendly faces has been awesome when I get some downtime. 01:00:35.355 --> 01:00:37.915 It's so nice to hear from LRA, too. Hope you're doing well. 01:00:37.915 --> 01:00:38.535 Yeah, me too. 01:00:38.615 --> 01:00:38.835 Agree? 01:00:39.775 --> 01:00:41.015 And thank you for the feedback. 01:00:41.435 --> 01:00:45.115 FYI, since you've chatted with Fountain a lot in the past, when rotating to 01:00:45.115 --> 01:00:47.795 landscape mode, oh, this is a bug report, I think. 01:00:47.975 --> 01:00:51.335 When rotating to landscape mode using the video version in full screen, 01:00:51.955 --> 01:00:54.575 the Fountain logo cuts off part of Chris's head. 01:00:54.915 --> 01:00:57.795 So when you go to the third person shot, since Chris is on top, 01:00:58.195 --> 01:01:00.835 not a big deal, but you know, Chris's face. 01:01:00.975 --> 01:01:04.575 Yeah, I do like to be on top and that is something I'll talk to them about. 01:01:04.695 --> 01:01:05.875 You got to have that wide screen. 01:01:06.035 --> 01:01:10.295 I mean, it's just a 16 by nine video. Thank you. It's good to hear from you, sir. 01:01:11.495 --> 01:01:16.435 User 266 is here with 4,709 sats. Woo-hoo! 01:01:18.031 --> 01:01:20.131 Long-time listener, first-time booster. 01:01:20.931 --> 01:01:21.291 Nice. 01:01:24.191 --> 01:01:27.731 That's great. Maybe my last, since I'm switching away from Fountain, 01:01:27.891 --> 01:01:30.951 though. Too many bugs for me. Some people hit them, man, you know? 01:01:32.351 --> 01:01:36.391 It's really gotten very, very good, but in terms of some of the other apps, 01:01:36.431 --> 01:01:37.611 they still have like a decade on them. 01:01:38.211 --> 01:01:41.771 But he says, all the talk about AI has been okay with me, but not whole episodes. 01:01:41.771 --> 01:01:44.971 There's so much more going on in the FOSS world. Well, that is, there is a lot. 01:01:45.371 --> 01:01:48.351 True. It doesn't get as much coverage as it should, So that's one of the things 01:01:48.351 --> 01:01:49.931 we try to take on as we can. 01:01:50.051 --> 01:01:53.791 And feel free to boost or email in too if there's something we have missed in 01:01:53.791 --> 01:01:55.131 the FOSS world that's exciting. 01:01:55.391 --> 01:01:56.131 It says greetings from Italy. 01:01:56.131 --> 01:01:56.611 Because we don't see it all. 01:01:57.411 --> 01:02:00.111 Greetings from Italy to you too, or at least back from us. 01:02:01.151 --> 01:02:02.451 Italy meetup, let's go. 01:02:02.591 --> 01:02:04.831 Let's go. All right, I like that. 01:02:05.251 --> 01:02:09.091 All right, well Ensign Nix comes in with 2,048 sats. 01:02:12.691 --> 01:02:16.131 I'm not a fan of AI, but I acknowledge that it's a useful tool. 01:02:16.131 --> 01:02:20.311 The thing I dislike the most is that it's been placed on too high of a pedestal 01:02:20.311 --> 01:02:25.811 by the big tech companies and advertised as the answer to all of humanity's problems. 01:02:26.031 --> 01:02:30.251 And as a result, now I can't buy memory or a hard drive without breaking the bank. 01:02:30.411 --> 01:02:34.411 I actually want the AI bubble to burst so we can shape its future instead of 01:02:34.411 --> 01:02:36.691 greedy corporations who only care about profit. 01:02:37.331 --> 01:02:38.091 I will say. 01:02:38.091 --> 01:02:39.751 That's a fun, refreshing take. I like it. 01:02:39.951 --> 01:02:40.271 I agree. 01:02:41.471 --> 01:02:45.971 It's a nuance in that you can't blame the tech for the way the corporations 01:02:45.971 --> 01:02:50.871 around it decide to make purchases even before they have the money to pay for it all. 01:02:51.471 --> 01:02:54.611 But it is the silly part of the curve, for sure. 01:02:54.811 --> 01:02:58.151 I think what Chris is trying to say is, it's not the tech, it's the people. 01:02:58.711 --> 01:03:00.811 Yeah, it often is, though. It often is. 01:03:01.291 --> 01:03:04.211 And boost in and we'll send you the studio address and you can send your RAM here. 01:03:05.391 --> 01:03:07.331 We need it. Oh, man. 01:03:07.331 --> 01:03:12.571 Adversaries 17 boosted in 4,220 satoshis, 01:03:15.028 --> 01:03:19.508 Well, I think you guys are balancing AI and non-AI topics very well indeed. 01:03:19.788 --> 01:03:23.468 I can definitely tell there's a lot of work put in each week to keep topics 01:03:23.468 --> 01:03:27.148 fresh and highlight the lesser hyped things. Please keep it up. 01:03:27.548 --> 01:03:28.208 Oh, thank you, sir. 01:03:28.628 --> 01:03:29.188 Thank you. 01:03:31.028 --> 01:03:37.208 I like the adversaries. NK of comes in with five, you think I got that right, 5,000 sets. 01:03:38.848 --> 01:03:42.188 Another one, I like the AI coverage, but I know it's not everyone's cup of tea. 01:03:42.408 --> 01:03:45.648 Could chapters help those wanting to skip the subject? I think the current ratio 01:03:45.648 --> 01:03:49.748 between AI and not is good. So keep up the good work. Thank you. 01:03:50.168 --> 01:03:54.508 Do we have chapters in our feed that people can use? 01:03:54.848 --> 01:03:55.728 We do have chapters. 01:03:56.028 --> 01:04:00.008 It does bring up, you know, that could perhaps, and I'm failing at this all 01:04:00.008 --> 01:04:04.788 the time, but kind of like with Nick's, perhaps then if we do think consciously 01:04:04.788 --> 01:04:06.088 about keeping, you know, 01:04:06.688 --> 01:04:11.268 not an absolute ban or anything, but just keep, don't inject AI into every chapter when we don't need to. 01:04:11.408 --> 01:04:14.508 It did take a drinking challenge to get us to behave a little bit. 01:04:14.808 --> 01:04:15.328 Yeah. 01:04:16.928 --> 01:04:17.648 Hopefully it doesn't get that bad. 01:04:17.648 --> 01:04:18.508 So hopefully we can avoid that. 01:04:22.948 --> 01:04:28.108 Well, Kiwi Bitcoin Guide comes in with 4,567 cents. 01:04:31.043 --> 01:04:34.563 I enjoy the AI subject matter and the way you cover it. I'm fairly new to the 01:04:34.563 --> 01:04:37.623 Linux and FOSS world, and now I have to weave AI into it all, 01:04:37.703 --> 01:04:40.243 so I appreciate the way you bring it into the Linux ecosystem. 01:04:40.523 --> 01:04:44.183 Give examples of practical use cases and also potential hooks to be aware of. 01:04:44.623 --> 01:04:47.783 AI seems to be here to stay, and everyone needs to understand how to use it, 01:04:47.963 --> 01:04:50.303 so keep the content coming. That's my vote. 01:04:50.463 --> 01:04:50.923 Thank you. 01:04:51.283 --> 01:04:51.563 Thank you. 01:04:51.643 --> 01:04:55.163 Yeah, that has, so, I mean, I do really appreciate all the positive feedback, 01:04:55.303 --> 01:04:57.463 because it does sort of balance out some of the negative feedback. 01:04:57.883 --> 01:05:01.643 I think the takeaway is when we talk about it, talk about it in a practical 01:05:01.643 --> 01:05:05.083 useful context that uh you know and i think that's what something we've been 01:05:05.083 --> 01:05:07.143 good at with with an open source focus. 01:05:07.143 --> 01:05:12.083 The way i've been approaching that tool is like what can i do with it you know 01:05:12.083 --> 01:05:14.503 the the technology is really just 01:05:14.503 --> 01:05:19.283 the means to doing something bigger and greater and i think that helps me. 01:05:19.283 --> 01:05:20.963 I think to buy a. 01:05:20.963 --> 01:05:22.363 More positive relationship with it. 01:05:22.363 --> 01:05:25.543 Like you were mentioning one of the models you were you were leaning into this 01:05:25.543 --> 01:05:29.253 past week uh is an open source one and um and. 01:05:29.253 --> 01:05:30.473 They're quite capable these days. 01:05:30.473 --> 01:05:32.173 Yeah that's been really fun to explore too. 01:05:33.413 --> 01:05:37.433 Well turd ferguson boosted in 10 000 satoshis, 01:05:40.309 --> 01:05:46.929 As someone a bit more seasoned than you boys, I've been appreciating the light but practical AI talk. 01:05:47.109 --> 01:05:51.409 I don't know about you, but I have been noticing a slowly but growing trend 01:05:51.409 --> 01:05:56.469 of people reluctantly accepting and then really beginning to embrace this technology. 01:05:56.669 --> 01:06:00.829 This reminds me of a meme I saw on social media. 01:06:01.129 --> 01:06:06.289 Somebody screenshotted their blog headlines, you know, just like the RSS feed 01:06:06.289 --> 01:06:12.229 of their headlines. and a year ago it was why I will never use AI or Vibe code. 01:06:12.769 --> 01:06:18.309 And then like six months later it was some of the things I'm finding it kind of useful for. 01:06:18.709 --> 01:06:24.509 And then three months after that his blog post was I don't write a line of code 01:06:24.509 --> 01:06:25.669 anymore. This is incredible. 01:06:27.429 --> 01:06:30.589 And it is funny how you see people start on a journey. It's like when you find 01:06:30.589 --> 01:06:34.969 something that's useful for it, it begins to crack that kind of assumption that 01:06:34.969 --> 01:06:37.529 you've made about it I think I think there is something to that. 01:06:38.049 --> 01:06:41.709 It's also just wild because everything changes so fast between the capabilities. 01:06:41.709 --> 01:06:42.589 How you can use. 01:06:42.589 --> 01:06:45.809 Them and how easy or hard they are to use and all of that too which does not 01:06:45.809 --> 01:06:48.349 always jive well with our human level speed. 01:06:48.349 --> 01:06:53.069 And like many people have pointed out there's a lot of noise out there too you 01:06:53.069 --> 01:06:55.269 know a lot of noise it's very confusing all of that too, 01:06:57.213 --> 01:07:01.913 Thank you, Turd. Appreciate that. Forward Humor comes in with 4,444 stats. 01:07:03.233 --> 01:07:06.293 Hey, guys. I just wanted to say thank you for all the variety in the show, 01:07:06.393 --> 01:07:08.253 including the AI and tech news. 01:07:08.473 --> 01:07:11.673 I always appreciate a show that entertains me and keeps me up to date. 01:07:11.813 --> 01:07:13.733 Not enough time in the day to stay current on my own. 01:07:13.893 --> 01:07:16.393 The show continues to dive deep on interesting and helpful topics. 01:07:16.513 --> 01:07:18.653 Keep up the good work. Wow, Forward Humor, thank you. 01:07:19.433 --> 01:07:23.073 We did not pay these people. We did not pay them to say that. 01:07:23.173 --> 01:07:23.533 They're paying us for some reason. 01:07:23.533 --> 01:07:27.813 They're paying us, and we didn't know. Thank you, guys. Appreciate that. 01:07:29.353 --> 01:07:31.313 Tomato comes in with a row of ducks. 01:07:32.273 --> 01:07:33.493 I think it's tomato. 01:07:34.793 --> 01:07:36.833 Hey, you say potato, I'll say. 01:07:38.973 --> 01:07:44.813 I'm simultaneously sick to death of hearing about AI and enjoying Love's AI coverage. 01:07:45.073 --> 01:07:45.273 Wow. 01:07:45.433 --> 01:07:48.873 You are all on a very, very short list of exceptions because you strike a good 01:07:48.873 --> 01:07:52.773 balance, both in terms of the amount of coverage, but also being neither cheerleaders 01:07:52.773 --> 01:07:53.913 nor thought-free haters. 01:07:54.413 --> 01:07:57.913 I'm pretty much aligned with Brent, and like he clearly is, I'm enjoying hearing 01:07:57.913 --> 01:07:59.413 Chris and Wes's AI adventures. 01:08:00.273 --> 01:08:04.093 I just watch from a small distance and keep my detective shield up. 01:08:04.093 --> 01:08:05.593 He lets us burn the tokens on the agents. 01:08:06.853 --> 01:08:07.933 Then I can be more efficient. 01:08:07.973 --> 01:08:10.173 You're watching from your hardware hacking lab, buddy. 01:08:10.693 --> 01:08:12.473 Yeah, it's more of a bug lab at this point. 01:08:14.753 --> 01:08:18.093 SpookySatCom came in with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 satoshis. 01:08:22.722 --> 01:08:28.262 For someone who isn't completely sold on the overall value of all the AI development, 01:08:28.582 --> 01:08:32.682 I do find value in your approach to covering the use cases for it. 01:08:32.842 --> 01:08:34.402 So keep up that great work. 01:08:35.162 --> 01:08:38.602 Wow. Thank you. All right. That's great, Spooky. Appreciate that. 01:08:38.762 --> 01:08:40.462 That's a good amount of signal there. 01:08:40.842 --> 01:08:43.702 And, of course, you're always welcome to counterbalance or add your own. 01:08:43.902 --> 01:08:48.462 It's going to be a topic of consideration for a while as we find that balance. 01:08:48.662 --> 01:08:51.922 Thank you, everybody, who streams stats as well. 15 of you collectively stacked. 01:08:53.542 --> 01:08:58.482 24,874 sats. When you combine that with our boosters, that brings this episode 01:08:58.482 --> 01:09:00.802 to a humble but very appreciative and thankful, 01:09:02.842 --> 01:09:06.922 124,185 sats. Now, this is a value-for-value show, which means we put it out 01:09:06.922 --> 01:09:10.942 there for free, and if you got value from it, you can send it back with a membership or a boost. 01:09:11.442 --> 01:09:14.582 Fountain FM does make it easy. They make a lot of easy ways, 01:09:14.642 --> 01:09:17.862 including self-hosted or fiat channels or whatever it might be to boost. 01:09:18.042 --> 01:09:21.542 But then there is a galaxy of options when you go to AlbiHub, 01:09:21.542 --> 01:09:25.302 from self-hosted to apps on your phone and whatnot to participate including 01:09:25.302 --> 01:09:26.802 just boosting from the podcast index. 01:09:27.322 --> 01:09:31.242 Go check it out. And thank you everybody who supports with a boost or a membership. 01:09:31.462 --> 01:09:33.902 Keeps the show going. Coming on Lucky 13. 01:09:34.402 --> 01:09:37.402 How about that boys? That's crazy. So crazy. Wow. 01:09:39.699 --> 01:09:42.639 All right, to make up for last week following the rules and only having one 01:09:42.639 --> 01:09:45.179 pick, we are really breaking the rules. 01:09:45.519 --> 01:09:46.719 It's a blowout. 01:09:46.879 --> 01:09:51.799 It's a pick blowout this week, and both Wes and I came across SSH Route, 01:09:52.059 --> 01:09:56.399 a network-aware SSH router that routes connections to different IPs or ports, 01:09:56.519 --> 01:10:01.579 keys, jump hosts, etc., based on your active VPN or network. 01:10:01.759 --> 01:10:06.939 So if you're moving between networks or VPNs, this is for you. 01:10:06.939 --> 01:10:10.539 It detects your active network or VPN, automatically selects the right host, 01:10:10.639 --> 01:10:12.899 the right port, the right identity file, the right jump host, 01:10:12.999 --> 01:10:18.979 et cetera, for each connection without you having to touch your .ssh slash config like an animal. 01:10:19.159 --> 01:10:22.559 You make a few definitions in there, and you're good to go. 01:10:23.039 --> 01:10:27.199 Every connection SSH route detects which network you're on, if it's your office 01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:31.999 LAN, a wire guard peer, a mesh network, and then it resolves the correct SSH 01:10:31.999 --> 01:10:36.619 parameters before handing off to the real SSH binary. Pretty cool. 01:10:36.939 --> 01:10:37.519 That is slick. 01:10:37.519 --> 01:10:41.339 I think this one confused some folks who saw it after it was getting promoted 01:10:41.339 --> 01:10:44.839 on Reddit and a few other places, just because it might be a tool that you hope 01:10:44.839 --> 01:10:46.439 you don't need, you know? 01:10:46.539 --> 01:10:50.679 Like in a sense of, if you have a sane universe and really well-architected 01:10:50.679 --> 01:10:55.879 networks and like super modern tools and really coherent thought about infrastructure, 01:10:56.019 --> 01:10:57.399 then maybe you don't need something like this. 01:10:57.499 --> 01:11:01.719 But for the rest of us who do have all of that mess, maybe it's helpful. 01:11:02.199 --> 01:11:05.919 And you get, like, the main part is you can keep all of this stuff declarative, 01:11:06.079 --> 01:11:09.619 keep it in a yaml file something tells me that would make it pretty easy to 01:11:09.619 --> 01:11:12.699 wrap into a nix os config if you needed to that kind of thing. 01:11:12.699 --> 01:11:17.499 Interesting yeah you know wherever i go i can just ssh into my machines no problem 01:11:17.499 --> 01:11:22.679 i don't need it but uh i figured somebody out there might now uh tell me about 01:11:22.679 --> 01:11:29.559 render cv i have a feeling this could be useful for people out there that hate creating resumes oh. 01:11:29.559 --> 01:11:31.799 That's me actually i hate creating. 01:11:31.799 --> 01:11:32.279 Yeah well. 01:11:32.279 --> 01:11:33.459 Computers and resumes really. 01:11:33.459 --> 01:11:35.559 Well yeah Who doesn't hate creating resumes? 01:11:36.491 --> 01:11:41.571 I have been actively looking for work. So if anybody has something that seems 01:11:41.571 --> 01:11:43.811 interesting for a Brent, I'm all ears. 01:11:44.371 --> 01:11:48.991 But that said, this week, I was like, I should probably update that old resume of mine. 01:11:49.251 --> 01:11:53.211 And I did not want to do it the same way I've done it in the past. 01:11:53.471 --> 01:11:57.111 I wanted to do it programmatically because, come on, I wanted to put that thing 01:11:57.111 --> 01:11:58.731 in Git and keep track of it. 01:11:58.811 --> 01:12:02.331 Different branches for a different job. I'm like, come on. 01:12:03.051 --> 01:12:07.051 I'm a better me than I was in the past. And I found there are many, 01:12:07.131 --> 01:12:10.291 many, many, many options for this, which is a good thing. 01:12:10.351 --> 01:12:15.211 But the one I ultimately settled on way too late at night was RenderCV. 01:12:16.091 --> 01:12:20.231 This is basically a resume builder. It says for academics and engineers. 01:12:20.431 --> 01:12:23.831 I don't know if I fit into either of those. But you can basically version control 01:12:23.831 --> 01:12:26.491 your CV, which is quite obvious and super useful. 01:12:26.771 --> 01:12:30.031 It is a JSON. I think it might be JSON. 01:12:30.531 --> 01:12:33.631 So it's relatively easy to edit. 01:12:33.631 --> 01:12:39.671 But the thing I loved the most about it is that it's really quite handy to use 01:12:39.671 --> 01:12:45.891 with your favorite AI companion because it's just a heck of a lot of text similar to an XOS. 01:12:46.471 --> 01:12:48.931 You just treat your resume like your infrastructure. 01:12:49.591 --> 01:12:53.731 Right. The source file, it's a YAML file. And so if you've got something that 01:12:53.731 --> 01:12:56.271 can work with a YAML file, that's all you need. 01:12:56.471 --> 01:12:59.251 Is it YAML? See, I didn't even need to care. It's just text. 01:13:00.111 --> 01:13:03.431 You're technically still right because YAML is a superset of JSON, it turns out. 01:13:03.631 --> 01:13:04.391 Wes. Damn it. 01:13:04.691 --> 01:13:07.671 Thanks Wes. At least someone loves me. That is the worst. 01:13:07.671 --> 01:13:08.771 Well, actually of the episode. 01:13:08.951 --> 01:13:12.731 What I really loved about this approach is, 01:13:12.871 --> 01:13:17.131 of course I mentioned I could track different resumes and different branches 01:13:17.131 --> 01:13:19.571 and keep track of them over time, 01:13:19.691 --> 01:13:25.631 which is what quite obviously useful, but also I can just have a variety of 01:13:25.631 --> 01:13:30.251 different versions that I'm working on concurrently and interface with it the 01:13:30.251 --> 01:13:33.771 way I interfaced with it was basically using my favorite AI tool. 01:13:34.091 --> 01:13:35.511 And that meant that I could, 01:13:37.424 --> 01:13:42.384 I have it check my silly ways of trying to promote myself, 01:13:42.624 --> 01:13:46.764 which I am very bad at and just be like, hey, give me some kind of objective 01:13:46.764 --> 01:13:52.584 way of talking about myself because I feel this entire process is very uncomfortable for me. 01:13:52.764 --> 01:13:56.564 And so it turned it into more of like an infrastructure project than it did 01:13:56.564 --> 01:14:01.864 me just talking about myself, which was a good way to break into like. 01:14:01.904 --> 01:14:05.984 Okay, let's get this done. Like I, like you, cannot conceive of a way to like 01:14:05.984 --> 01:14:09.204 talk about myself in the structure of a Word document in paragraphs. 01:14:09.544 --> 01:14:09.724 Right. 01:14:09.964 --> 01:14:14.524 But for some reason, a structured YAML document that's just like, 01:14:14.704 --> 01:14:16.604 that does make sense because it's just attributes. 01:14:16.904 --> 01:14:21.204 That to me, I could work with, ironically. And it looks like what it produces 01:14:21.204 --> 01:14:23.264 is a pretty good, clean looking resume. 01:14:23.424 --> 01:14:27.604 Oh, yeah. I was really impressed. I was super impressed. So I would highly recommend it. 01:14:27.704 --> 01:14:30.544 You don't necessarily have to use this particular tool. There's a bunch of them 01:14:30.544 --> 01:14:31.624 out there that do different things. 01:14:32.704 --> 01:14:41.564 But if you haven't leaned into this way of taking care of your resume i highly highly recommend cv. 01:14:41.564 --> 01:14:45.424 And it seems like a great way like you say where you could iterate on it over 01:14:45.424 --> 01:14:49.084 time and you could keep those iterations and get if you'd like. 01:14:49.084 --> 01:14:50.924 If you don't you're doing it wrong. 01:14:50.924 --> 01:14:55.324 It really also comes down to me having just been lazy and i said go find everything 01:14:55.324 --> 01:14:58.544 you can about me on the internet and like compile a cv for me because there's 01:14:58.544 --> 01:15:01.744 information out there right And it did really well. 01:15:01.964 --> 01:15:06.444 I was super impressed. I said, like, make sure you grab some, you know, GitHub. 01:15:08.803 --> 01:15:13.523 Stats because this particular application i was looking at was pretty like git 01:15:13.523 --> 01:15:18.423 heavy and i was like go go pull some insights from github go like you know so 01:15:18.423 --> 01:15:23.603 very impressed i'm sure you can ask your favorite ai buddy to do the same thing for you. 01:15:23.603 --> 01:15:26.283 I have nerdy thoughts on this yeah just because i took a 01:15:26.283 --> 01:15:29.003 look because actually i've been working on my own sort of version of 01:15:29.003 --> 01:15:32.163 this before even seeing the render cv existed so i 01:15:32.163 --> 01:15:35.123 really approve of your find here because i i took a look 01:15:35.123 --> 01:15:38.003 into the code and the spirit is great because 01:15:38.003 --> 01:15:40.703 it's purely this like data oriented pipeline as you 01:15:40.703 --> 01:15:45.623 noticed right you put in yaml and then you get out pdf or it can do markdown 01:15:45.623 --> 01:15:50.983 and it can do html and under the hood it uses types and i think it can do latex 01:15:50.983 --> 01:15:56.543 as well but types is a modern rust based really nice type setting and layout 01:15:56.543 --> 01:15:59.083 engine so that's why the pdfs look so nice as they do. 01:15:59.773 --> 01:16:03.533 Plus, it uses Pydantic, which is a great Python. There's a lot of Python under 01:16:03.533 --> 01:16:07.213 the hood. And Pydantic is a great validation and schema library for Python. 01:16:07.453 --> 01:16:13.413 And as a result, they export a JSON schema, which then can be applied to the YAML config. 01:16:13.653 --> 01:16:17.913 And that tells editors or AI helpers what the schema and the keys are. 01:16:17.993 --> 01:16:21.693 So if you open it in VS Code, you can get sort of an autocomplete or a helper 01:16:21.693 --> 01:16:24.913 to show you what's allowed in this field and what are the valid keys and stuff. 01:16:25.473 --> 01:16:30.973 And then on the backside, and this is something I'm looking at copying or implementing 01:16:30.973 --> 01:16:34.553 my own version of or running at render CV stuff on the side or whatever, 01:16:34.793 --> 01:16:40.313 they have a whole set of tools used to parse the resulting PDF and essentially 01:16:40.313 --> 01:16:44.993 a test to make sure that it can parse out all the details it expects and sort 01:16:44.993 --> 01:16:47.113 of get it back to a YAML-y state, 01:16:47.273 --> 01:16:51.353 which helps if you're going to submit to these automatic systems that look at 01:16:51.353 --> 01:16:54.353 your PDF and do that in their own sort of HR backend system. 01:16:54.353 --> 01:16:55.493 You want to make sure that your 01:16:55.493 --> 01:17:00.093 PDF isn't going to be opaque to those and render CV has that all baked in. 01:17:00.333 --> 01:17:05.893 So super professional grade. You don't have to like pick the nerdy fun data 01:17:05.893 --> 01:17:09.433 and get route and then feel like you're losing out to the people who have the 01:17:09.433 --> 01:17:13.713 word resumes because that's what everyone else set up to support. So I really like that. 01:17:13.713 --> 01:17:18.673 And I enjoyed how I could treat it almost like building my next config where 01:17:18.673 --> 01:17:23.093 everything gets, you know, during build time, it tells me if I made any mistakes, 01:17:23.253 --> 01:17:27.253 which I made plenty of, and I got all that fixed up. 01:17:27.413 --> 01:17:30.473 So instead of, you know, exporting a PDF, checking it and be like, 01:17:30.633 --> 01:17:33.213 oh, that didn't work or didn't get formatted the way I wanted, 01:17:33.333 --> 01:17:37.613 all of that got checked, let's call it at build time when it was doing the exports 01:17:37.613 --> 01:17:39.393 instead of wasting all my time. 01:17:39.873 --> 01:17:43.133 You know what you could do? Stretch goal. See if your helper can help. 01:17:43.133 --> 01:17:45.833 You could turn it into a totally Nixified build. 01:17:46.013 --> 01:17:49.093 So you did Nix build and you got out a PDF on the other side. 01:17:49.273 --> 01:17:53.153 And you could have the resume stuff that's in YAML be in Nix if you wanted. 01:17:53.433 --> 01:17:53.813 Incredible. 01:17:54.273 --> 01:17:55.073 Stay tuned next week. 01:17:55.413 --> 01:18:02.373 All right. So the last one, it has been a very, very long time since we have done a hardware pick. 01:18:04.581 --> 01:18:07.981 But you often hear us referring to these ESP devices. We're loving these things. 01:18:08.061 --> 01:18:09.581 We talk about them more and more on the show. 01:18:09.741 --> 01:18:13.101 And it's a great way to take a lot of your Linux hackery knowledge and apply 01:18:13.101 --> 01:18:13.961 it to physical hardware. 01:18:14.601 --> 01:18:17.881 But it can be intimidating to start physical hardware projects, 01:18:17.941 --> 01:18:20.681 especially when you don't know anything about where to start. 01:18:21.261 --> 01:18:25.801 This past week, the Open Home Foundation had their State of the Open Home presentation. 01:18:26.321 --> 01:18:30.281 And along with that, they announced the ESP Home Starter Kit. 01:18:30.281 --> 01:18:34.361 It's an official ESPM Home Starter Kit, and they call it the easiest way to 01:18:34.361 --> 01:18:36.121 start building your own smart devices. 01:18:36.341 --> 01:18:39.381 No soldering, no breadboards, no coding experience needed. 01:18:39.621 --> 01:18:43.561 Plug-in modules. They have a visual YAML editor, and you're up and running. 01:18:43.701 --> 01:18:48.581 It integrates with Home Assistant or standalone right away. $39.99. 01:18:49.321 --> 01:18:53.721 The majority of the profit supports the Open Home Foundation and funds future 01:18:53.721 --> 01:18:58.601 ESP Home and Home Assistant and other Open Home Foundation projects. 01:18:58.601 --> 01:18:59.661 This looks fun. 01:18:59.661 --> 01:19:00.521 Yeah, it does. 01:19:00.661 --> 01:19:06.381 It's a really neat bit of kit. It's, it, it also just has a really cool visual appeal to it. 01:19:06.621 --> 01:19:12.141 And it includes in the box, you get enough to actually build something useful with it. 01:19:12.441 --> 01:19:15.661 You get a motion sensor, you get a temperature and humidity sensor. 01:19:15.661 --> 01:19:22.321 You get a 10 X RGB LED board to play around with, with a buzzer module. 01:19:22.641 --> 01:19:23.161 Huh? What's that? 01:19:23.541 --> 01:19:24.361 And a physical button. 01:19:25.685 --> 01:19:29.005 So, I mean, obviously you could use this to control lights, monitor bedroom 01:19:29.005 --> 01:19:32.265 temperature and humidity. You could trigger automations with the physical button module. 01:19:32.485 --> 01:19:35.625 You get audible notifications with the RGB. 01:19:36.165 --> 01:19:42.505 And it's really easy to get started. And everything just plugs in together. Just all connects. 01:19:43.585 --> 01:19:47.165 And it comes in cool little cases and whatnot, too. And it's $40. 01:19:47.985 --> 01:19:53.565 It is expected to ship mid-May. I've put my hat in because the pre-sales just 01:19:53.565 --> 01:19:55.465 went immediately since it was on the live stream. 01:19:55.685 --> 01:19:59.265 So did you get a sense, like, is this going to be a one-off or hopefully something 01:19:59.265 --> 01:20:03.265 that turns into like an ecosystem that keeps getting developed in future models and versions? 01:20:03.565 --> 01:20:08.065 I would bet if it's successful that the latter. So the way that I've noticed, 01:20:08.185 --> 01:20:10.985 they kind of dip their toes in with these kinds of things and they sell it through 01:20:10.985 --> 01:20:13.785 a third party and they kind of see how it goes. 01:20:13.805 --> 01:20:17.825 And if there's a strong response, I would not be surprised if the foundation 01:20:17.825 --> 01:20:19.685 started doing more starter kits like this. 01:20:20.245 --> 01:20:23.585 Home assistant has gotten to the point that if you if you 01:20:23.585 --> 01:20:26.685 utilize all of their features it's just as easy to get 01:20:26.685 --> 01:20:29.965 something working with home assistant as it would be with home kit or any 01:20:29.965 --> 01:20:33.125 other i mean even to the point of on your phone it'll slide 01:20:33.125 --> 01:20:35.825 up and say a new device is detected would you like to add it to home assistant 01:20:35.825 --> 01:20:38.685 you just hit a button and it just adds it i mean it's gotten really good so 01:20:38.685 --> 01:20:42.585 easy and this this is going to work like that and i just i think it's going 01:20:42.585 --> 01:20:47.125 to be really exciting because it's also a really you know two three hour saturday 01:20:47.125 --> 01:20:50.845 project could be a really fun thing and a great learning experience too. 01:20:50.965 --> 01:20:55.525 So it is called the ESP Home Starter Kit and it's currently being sold by Apollo 01:20:55.525 --> 01:20:59.865 Automation and I'll put a link to it in the show notes, of course, 01:21:00.105 --> 01:21:04.045 which you can find those show notes at linuxunplugged.com slash 666. 01:21:05.286 --> 01:21:11.386 No, we definitely want your input on how to shape and do this BSD challenge 01:21:11.386 --> 01:21:14.446 because our hope would be that you participate along with us. 01:21:14.806 --> 01:21:21.086 And we want to kick it off in episode 665 and conclude in episode 666. 01:21:21.846 --> 01:21:25.126 So we've got a couple of weeks to set the ground rules. 01:21:25.206 --> 01:21:29.026 So please go to the contact page or boost in your thoughts on a BSD challenge 01:21:29.026 --> 01:21:32.326 and what you would like to accomplish, what you'd like to see us accomplish. 01:21:32.326 --> 01:21:38.166 Any thoughts on the scoring a level four challenge anything like that please 01:21:38.166 --> 01:21:41.766 help us out we'd love to see that and don't forget linux fest northwest also 01:21:41.766 --> 01:21:45.466 just around the corner 13 days scary. 01:21:45.466 --> 01:21:48.726 Yeah how's the audio stack on freebsd because uh you know yeah. 01:21:48.726 --> 01:21:50.426 We're gonna end up running oh my god. 01:21:51.206 --> 01:21:52.666 That's whatever you're done. 01:21:52.666 --> 01:21:58.086 No no we gotta do the math on that we better do the math on that I hope we dodged that one. 01:21:59.886 --> 01:22:00.666 We're doing it live. 01:22:00.866 --> 01:22:01.786 People. We're doing it live. 01:22:02.886 --> 01:22:05.846 Speaking of live, we'd love it if you joined us live. We do it on a Sunday, 01:22:06.186 --> 01:22:09.706 a Tuesday on a Sunday at 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 p.m. Eastern. 01:22:13.434 --> 01:22:18.034 Yeah, that's over at jblive.tv, or if you're on the go, just tune in jblive.fm 01:22:18.034 --> 01:22:19.714 in your browser or whatever you want. 01:22:20.134 --> 01:22:22.354 VLC on Android? Great for that. 01:22:22.514 --> 01:22:27.554 Great for that. Wes Pano, there are extra levels of detail around the show. 01:22:27.574 --> 01:22:29.094 It's not just an audio podcast. 01:22:29.154 --> 01:22:31.374 You could say there's different types of metadata, even. 01:22:32.014 --> 01:22:38.674 Yeah, that's right. We have lovingly crafted Editor Drew Blast titles in JSON 01:22:38.674 --> 01:22:42.914 format, hosted on the cloud for easy access, dynamic updates. 01:22:43.314 --> 01:22:47.134 Jump right to the content you want, skip the AI section, go right to the stupid 01:22:47.134 --> 01:22:49.754 AI section, whatever you like. We don't care. We don't judge. 01:22:49.754 --> 01:22:50.274 We don't care. 01:22:50.654 --> 01:22:52.674 Just download the MP3 file and we're all good. 01:22:52.974 --> 01:22:53.694 No, I'm kidding. 01:22:54.454 --> 01:22:59.334 But we also then take the wonderful stems that Editor Drew produces and we run 01:22:59.334 --> 01:23:04.714 that through some wizardry to produce diarized transcripts that, you know, 01:23:04.834 --> 01:23:08.834 aren't maybe 100% perfect but are pretty darn good and at least help you furthermore 01:23:08.834 --> 01:23:11.414 find out exactly what we said or jump to the content you want. 01:23:11.514 --> 01:23:15.554 I hope the best transcripts in the business because we feed the thing individualized 01:23:15.554 --> 01:23:17.874 stems of each of our tracks so there's no crosstalk. 01:23:18.154 --> 01:23:22.514 It's as clean and crisp as it can get because we care about that kind of thing. 01:23:22.514 --> 01:23:26.514 Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Your Unplugged Program. 01:23:26.774 --> 01:23:29.734 You're welcome to join our virtual lug in Mumble next week. 01:23:29.834 --> 01:23:33.454 And, of course, as we do the BSD Challenge, links to everything we talked about 01:23:33.454 --> 01:23:37.514 today, our contact page, our Mumble info, our matrix info, our membership, all of it. 01:23:38.374 --> 01:23:39.354 LinuxUnplugged.com and a bunch 01:23:39.354 --> 01:23:42.994 of great shows over at jupiterbroadcasting.com. Okay, that's it for us. 01:23:43.074 --> 01:23:46.314 Thank you so much for joining us. And we'll see you right back here next Linux 01:23:46.314 --> 01:23:49.754 Tuesday. And you know when that actually is. That's on a Sunday.