WEBVTT 00:00:11.249 --> 00:00:15.909 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:16.129 --> 00:00:16.829 My name is Wes. 00:00:17.029 --> 00:00:17.789 And my name is Brent. 00:00:18.009 --> 00:00:21.989 Hello, gentlemen. Well, we are back from our trip. And, well, 00:00:22.049 --> 00:00:25.589 as soon as we landed, we each got heads down on our own projects. 00:00:25.829 --> 00:00:29.329 Today, we're back to compare progress and catch you all up on what we've been 00:00:29.329 --> 00:00:33.209 up to. Then we'll round out the show with some great boos, picks, and a lot more. 00:00:33.349 --> 00:00:36.569 So before we get into that, let's say time-appropriate greetings to our virtual 00:00:36.569 --> 00:00:38.689 lug. Hello, Mumble Room. Hello, hello. 00:00:39.249 --> 00:00:41.729 Hello. Hey, Chris, and hello, Brent. 00:00:42.249 --> 00:00:45.089 Hello. We have a few up there in the quiet listening. Shout out to you, 00:00:45.089 --> 00:00:48.529 too. We're starting a little late today, so it's nice to have a crew in there. 00:00:49.009 --> 00:00:53.129 Also, good morning to our friends over at Defined Networking. 00:00:53.229 --> 00:00:55.329 Go check out Manage Nebula. 00:00:55.949 --> 00:01:01.069 Defined Networking is a decentralized VPN company built on top of the open source Nebula platform. 00:01:01.269 --> 00:01:04.369 And what I love about this is there's no big tech dependency, 00:01:04.649 --> 00:01:07.909 no control plane that might go down, and it is built for speed, 00:01:08.049 --> 00:01:10.129 simplicity, and very serious security. 00:01:10.289 --> 00:01:13.989 They started back in 2017 for Slack, and they had to hit the ground running 00:01:13.989 --> 00:01:17.689 for a global enterprise that had to protect the world's largest company's data. 00:01:17.889 --> 00:01:23.889 It's really robust. 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Just wanted to shout it out. 00:01:57.449 --> 00:01:59.829 Defined.net slash unplugged. 00:02:03.468 --> 00:02:06.208 Well, we really have been building, boys. We have been building. 00:02:06.328 --> 00:02:07.068 Brentley's been building. 00:02:07.228 --> 00:02:10.408 Wes has been building. But I think we should start with Brent because he's been 00:02:10.408 --> 00:02:13.268 getting me a little warmed up, if you know what I mean. 00:02:13.608 --> 00:02:15.328 I know what you like. I know what you like. 00:02:15.448 --> 00:02:16.788 So what have you been up to, B-Rent? 00:02:18.048 --> 00:02:21.148 Well, over the last couple of months, you've been complaining on air, 00:02:21.308 --> 00:02:25.288 on the show, about how I broke your diesel heater and it stopped working. 00:02:25.588 --> 00:02:25.988 Wow. 00:02:26.168 --> 00:02:30.648 It's been, what, two years you've been using that to heat your home? 00:02:31.765 --> 00:02:35.685 And you've loved this thing, right? You've been even convincing me to get my own in the van. 00:02:36.285 --> 00:02:41.065 I did not pull the trigger on one, but I did a ton of research because I think I agree with you. 00:02:41.205 --> 00:02:47.665 These little Chinese diesel heaters, which are really clones of a really good 00:02:47.665 --> 00:02:51.145 Webasto heater, which is, I think it's German and it's excellent, 00:02:51.345 --> 00:02:53.465 excellent build. It's been around forever. 00:02:53.725 --> 00:02:55.665 But the beauty of it is its simplicity. 00:02:56.185 --> 00:02:59.665 They just kind of trickle through fuel. They're very easy to understand. 00:02:59.665 --> 00:03:03.105 Anybody can take them apart and build them again. 00:03:03.385 --> 00:03:06.785 Well, I shouldn't say anybody because it takes away the credit from what I did this week. 00:03:07.265 --> 00:03:09.505 But if you're willing to do the work and the research. 00:03:09.705 --> 00:03:09.945 Mm-hmm. 00:03:10.045 --> 00:03:10.245 Yeah. 00:03:10.385 --> 00:03:13.625 They're also relatively inexpensive to get. So. 00:03:13.905 --> 00:03:18.925 Yeah. They're plentiful, but they're very proprietary by nature in a weird way 00:03:18.925 --> 00:03:23.485 because they're all scamming each other's protocols and communication methods, 00:03:23.665 --> 00:03:25.545 but they don't document any of it. 00:03:25.545 --> 00:03:29.725 And so it's a proprietary way in like the old school sense. 00:03:29.925 --> 00:03:32.645 They're all doing the same thing. They haven't taken advantage of the proper, 00:03:32.645 --> 00:03:35.505 just share the foundation, sort of open sense. But in practice, 00:03:35.705 --> 00:03:37.845 for practicality, it kind of ends up being the same. 00:03:37.985 --> 00:03:42.005 Yeah. And for controls and things like that, they can like modify one of the 00:03:42.005 --> 00:03:43.805 common standard protocols. 00:03:44.525 --> 00:03:48.405 So that's really a tricky thing for somebody who wants to have as much open 00:03:48.405 --> 00:03:52.145 source and control over something as possible. It's bugged me for two years. 00:03:52.305 --> 00:03:57.865 Yeah. And in this particular area of reverse engineering these really nice Webasto 00:03:57.865 --> 00:03:59.845 heaters, it's just a race to the bottom, right? 00:03:59.905 --> 00:04:04.265 So in our research to see, well, how can we possibly, because Chris wants this 00:04:04.265 --> 00:04:07.645 for everything in his life, how can we possibly connect the diesel heater to 00:04:07.645 --> 00:04:09.685 Home Assistant so that you can automate... 00:04:10.794 --> 00:04:15.834 the heating of the whole front side of your home, how do we do that with this 00:04:15.834 --> 00:04:18.194 particular heater? And the answer wasn't that obvious. 00:04:18.294 --> 00:04:21.054 As I've come to say now is like, how do we put some more open source in this? 00:04:21.174 --> 00:04:22.554 This thing needs a little more open source. 00:04:22.554 --> 00:04:23.414 Open source injection. 00:04:23.934 --> 00:04:24.774 Open source and automation. 00:04:25.114 --> 00:04:27.214 Yeah. Put some open source in it and call it good. 00:04:27.354 --> 00:04:31.774 So we've been thinking about how to do that for months. And I think this week, 00:04:31.974 --> 00:04:37.154 since I'm here in studio and near the farm, it was the time to finally put it 00:04:37.154 --> 00:04:41.534 in action. And I was afraid the weather would be too nice, but it turns out it snowed. 00:04:41.634 --> 00:04:45.234 So it was just perfect to have the incentive to get this heater back up and running. 00:04:45.394 --> 00:04:48.814 I assume you locked him in the milkshed and said that he gets heat when he fixed the heater? 00:04:49.034 --> 00:04:51.414 Yeah, exactly. And let me tell you, is that not a motivator? 00:04:51.494 --> 00:04:52.074 Yeah, it is. 00:04:52.154 --> 00:04:52.834 It gets a guy to hustle. 00:04:53.014 --> 00:04:57.254 The issue was the heater completely stopped working and you couldn't use it at all. 00:04:57.374 --> 00:05:01.654 You had a little trick weeks ago of kind of flooding the thing so that it would 00:05:01.654 --> 00:05:04.634 clean itself and then run for a bit. I think you got a couple of weeks out of that. 00:05:05.434 --> 00:05:07.594 and then and then it just gave up. 00:05:07.594 --> 00:05:11.114 So inevitably they have just parts that will expire 00:05:11.114 --> 00:05:14.014 because the way the thing works it carbs up and 00:05:14.014 --> 00:05:16.814 it has a screen in there that atomizes the fuel and when that fuel 00:05:16.814 --> 00:05:22.514 burns it leaves residue behind and just by using the thing it inevitably will 00:05:22.514 --> 00:05:25.914 fail just the design of it and so especially when they're a hundred dollars 00:05:25.914 --> 00:05:28.814 right they're not really making these things to last but like brent was saying 00:05:28.814 --> 00:05:31.274 if you're willing to service on the thing you can open it up you can replace 00:05:31.274 --> 00:05:36.434 these little parts there's kits for 15 online and then it's right back to new again. 00:05:36.434 --> 00:05:40.534 Yeah and they're actually extremely serviceable you can service them in place 00:05:40.534 --> 00:05:42.554 with a couple small little tools. 00:05:42.554 --> 00:05:43.354 That come. 00:05:43.354 --> 00:05:44.934 With these rebuild kits. 00:05:44.934 --> 00:05:48.614 It's kind of incredible so i mean the funny thing right is that brent took that 00:05:48.614 --> 00:05:52.794 on and he had the actual diesel heater probably fixed within two hours once 00:05:52.794 --> 00:05:56.514 he started working on it it was simple mechanical really really so it was great 00:05:56.514 --> 00:05:59.934 because oh like after two weeks of this thing being busted we've got heat again 00:05:59.934 --> 00:06:01.874 and so brent looks at me and he says, 00:06:02.629 --> 00:06:03.869 All right, well, let's take it apart again now. 00:06:05.449 --> 00:06:07.209 Well, you can't stop there. Come on. 00:06:07.309 --> 00:06:09.969 So you got it working, and your first instinct is to just rip it apart? 00:06:10.149 --> 00:06:12.729 And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. It's like, no, 00:06:12.769 --> 00:06:14.729 no, I think we can do this. Just take a couple hours. 00:06:15.589 --> 00:06:17.089 It always starts with that, doesn't it? 00:06:17.089 --> 00:06:18.149 So which day was this? 00:06:19.629 --> 00:06:20.829 A couple days ago. 00:06:21.789 --> 00:06:24.289 We were working on it until after the show was supposed to start. 00:06:24.829 --> 00:06:27.609 Yeah. Let's say we were inspired. 00:06:27.929 --> 00:06:28.009 Yeah. 00:06:28.769 --> 00:06:32.849 So the diesel heater is great. We got it back up and running as it was, 00:06:32.849 --> 00:06:35.669 but I mean, being Chris's dear 00:06:35.669 --> 00:06:39.529 friend, I can't just let him suffer with a simple on-off diesel heater. 00:06:39.969 --> 00:06:41.609 No. We got to put some open source in it. 00:06:41.729 --> 00:06:43.829 Exactly. We wanted to get this thing connected home assistant. 00:06:43.829 --> 00:06:46.749 It was an opportunity since we were down and dirty with the diesel heater to 00:06:46.749 --> 00:06:48.129 just make a couple of modifications. 00:06:50.049 --> 00:06:52.929 Luckily, we are not the only ones in the world who want to do this. 00:06:53.089 --> 00:06:58.069 So there are many projects, people reverse engineering the protocols for these 00:06:58.069 --> 00:07:02.829 diesel heaters, seeing how they can modify them to try to connect them using 00:07:02.829 --> 00:07:06.729 ESP32s, which is PJ's dear favorite computer. 00:07:07.169 --> 00:07:12.889 And that led to us being inspired by how we can do this and pushing the envelope a, 00:07:14.672 --> 00:07:16.272 tools we had in our toolbox. 00:07:16.272 --> 00:07:19.552 Thankfully we still to this day had 00:07:19.552 --> 00:07:23.552 a few leftover uh node mcu esp32s 00:07:23.552 --> 00:07:26.572 and a couple of different parts and we found a board that 00:07:26.572 --> 00:07:30.112 you can slot the esp32 in and 00:07:30.112 --> 00:07:32.972 then all of the gpios are exposed as 00:07:32.972 --> 00:07:36.632 just a screw-in wire so you can just you don't have to solder everything and 00:07:36.632 --> 00:07:42.072 that sounds great it makes for troubleshooting and um really learning much faster 00:07:42.072 --> 00:07:44.612 because you're just oh i can connect to white here real quick okay i'll connect 00:07:44.612 --> 00:07:49.672 to this gpio and so we had some of that stuff ready to go kind of we were positioned 00:07:49.672 --> 00:07:52.092 for this project really waiting to happen. 00:07:52.092 --> 00:07:57.552 Then the decision was well how do we get this to happen because we've got these 00:07:57.552 --> 00:08:02.212 projects some of them are written in python most of them are using esp home. 00:08:02.212 --> 00:08:03.572 Yep yep uh. 00:08:03.572 --> 00:08:06.352 But they're not all doing what we want to 00:08:06.352 --> 00:08:11.232 and the hardest part is that these chinese diesel heaters they all have different 00:08:11.232 --> 00:08:16.672 control boards they all have different ecus which control all the logic of you 00:08:16.672 --> 00:08:20.312 know the actual burning of the heater and safety protocols and all that there's 00:08:20.312 --> 00:08:24.272 different like permutations of how those two are connected so some have one 00:08:24.272 --> 00:08:26.252 board but the other control etc so so. 00:08:26.252 --> 00:08:28.592 You can't just flash some generic image. 00:08:28.592 --> 00:08:31.372 It kind of needs to be a pretty good match but there are a couple of 00:08:31.372 --> 00:08:34.272 universal truths yes there are power buttons that we 00:08:34.272 --> 00:08:37.112 know we could short and there is this 00:08:37.112 --> 00:08:39.952 ur protocol that they're likely using but maybe 00:08:39.952 --> 00:08:43.012 slightly modified and maybe they're using a different baud rate 00:08:43.012 --> 00:08:46.052 than the standard bar like there's certain things we can know that are common 00:08:46.052 --> 00:08:50.432 and so we knew at the end of the day we could at least short the power buttons 00:08:50.432 --> 00:08:56.472 but we what we really want is engine data fan speed data chamber temperature 00:08:56.472 --> 00:09:01.492 data it can get all of that the thing's constantly aware of all of that and we wanted to extract it. 00:09:01.492 --> 00:09:06.252 So sort of like a two-pronged mission, you want better control from Home Assistant. 00:09:06.452 --> 00:09:08.232 And then you also want to pull as much info as you can. 00:09:09.253 --> 00:09:14.213 So we settled on using a couple of projects to get started after reading way too much. 00:09:14.833 --> 00:09:21.913 One of them is Pablo Vitaso's ESPHome-Cinbasto, which is, you know, a Chinese webasto. 00:09:22.473 --> 00:09:27.473 That had most of the components we wanted, including how to short the on-off 00:09:27.473 --> 00:09:32.013 button if we couldn't possibly get it working with the serial protocol that's 00:09:32.013 --> 00:09:33.553 built into some of these Chinese heaters. 00:09:33.733 --> 00:09:38.313 And that's the dream, right? Use the data protocol to both control the heater 00:09:38.313 --> 00:09:43.313 and get all of the data from the heater, including whether it's on or not and all the safety. 00:09:43.533 --> 00:09:46.773 So that's the dream, but we had to work our way towards that. 00:09:47.213 --> 00:09:54.073 Luckily, there was a bunch of work by Ray Jones who did some deconstructing 00:09:54.073 --> 00:10:00.613 of the protocol, basically hacking it and learning how this UART protocol on 00:10:00.613 --> 00:10:01.813 these Chinese heaters works. 00:10:01.813 --> 00:10:06.153 not all of it is there however including how to turn it on and off from this 00:10:06.153 --> 00:10:09.853 protocol but you can get a bunch of information and some people have gotten 00:10:09.853 --> 00:10:11.953 this protocol to work with, 00:10:12.553 --> 00:10:19.013 ESPHome and these ESP32s so that was a fabulous place for us to start the trouble is, 00:10:20.340 --> 00:10:26.400 Well, we're just still ESP beginners and, you know, it's not just plug and play. 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:29.160 So Chris, you had a brilliant idea to bring in a little bit of help. 00:10:29.500 --> 00:10:31.740 Yeah, because, you know, again, like you're saying, we don't really know what 00:10:31.740 --> 00:10:37.620 we're doing. So I thought to myself, if we could establish basic communications 00:10:37.620 --> 00:10:40.200 with the thing, then, you know, over USB, 00:10:40.560 --> 00:10:43.180 then we could at least see if the GPIO ports are turning on and off. 00:10:43.280 --> 00:10:45.100 Maybe we get an idea if the voltage is working. 00:10:45.560 --> 00:10:48.440 You've got a debugging loop you can make some progress on. 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:54.800 Yeah, and so we got it flashed using ESPHome web connected to my laptop over 00:10:54.800 --> 00:10:56.720 USB, which is super simple now. 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:00.960 As long as you have Chrome and your user is in like the dial-out group, 00:11:01.020 --> 00:11:04.920 I think it is, then you pretty much have everything you need to flash these 00:11:04.920 --> 00:11:06.880 devices just from a Chromium-based web browser. 00:11:07.100 --> 00:11:11.440 So I went to the ESPHome site, and I got the basic ESPHome image flashed on 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:16.380 this thing and got it booting with some Wi-Fi, basic Wi-Fi credentials and whatnot. 00:11:16.380 --> 00:11:21.320 And once it was running ESPHome, and it was still connected to my laptop, 00:11:21.700 --> 00:11:26.260 I decided to open up OpenCode, which again is just a fantastic app, 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:30.660 and took advantage of the Hunter Alpha model, which is available right now, 00:11:30.740 --> 00:11:32.420 which is like a 1 million context model. 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:36.220 And maybe it's DeepSeq 4, and I don't know. 00:11:36.500 --> 00:11:40.320 We don't know. It's a masked model out there for a review. They train on the 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:43.000 data. They're kind of, you know, workshopping it before the public release. 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:46.520 And not something I would use for private information, but when you're just 00:11:46.520 --> 00:11:48.520 hacking on an ESP board, perfs. 00:11:48.520 --> 00:11:50.980 Especially stuff you probably would open source or whatever anyway. 00:11:51.180 --> 00:11:57.060 Yeah. And so it immediately, immediately locked into what we were doing. 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:01.020 And it started communicating and controlling the ESP32 system. 00:12:02.044 --> 00:12:04.984 Instantly and from that we 00:12:04.984 --> 00:12:07.964 were able to just derive all kinds 00:12:07.964 --> 00:12:10.744 of information like we realized that the baud rate wasn't 00:12:10.744 --> 00:12:14.144 what we expected the communications protocol wasn't we expected we discovered 00:12:14.144 --> 00:12:18.104 a voltage issue because there was a bug in the upstream project like it just 00:12:18.104 --> 00:12:21.804 started opening up all of these problems that we could just start working through 00:12:21.804 --> 00:12:28.524 bit by bit and it would it would uh it would rebuild custom esp home and esp 00:12:28.524 --> 00:12:30.924 troubleshooting firmware Like at one point, 00:12:31.124 --> 00:12:34.204 it built a signal analyzer firmware for us, 00:12:34.524 --> 00:12:39.704 reflashed the ESP device with a signal analyzer so we could start monitoring 00:12:39.704 --> 00:12:42.284 like the voltage and the other information, not just the voltage, 00:12:42.424 --> 00:12:47.744 but the data stream from the diesel heater in real time. 00:12:48.084 --> 00:12:51.104 And then it realized, well, we were getting so much data, it was overloading 00:12:51.104 --> 00:12:55.444 the memory on the ESP home. So then it created a more efficient version of a 00:12:55.444 --> 00:12:59.324 loop and it's out there and sampled the data and it started it started giving 00:12:59.324 --> 00:13:01.444 us so much like direction. 00:13:02.264 --> 00:13:06.384 It was really it was really interesting way because you're sitting there in open code. 00:13:06.644 --> 00:13:11.064 It's talking to an LLM that is then sending commands back down to command line 00:13:11.064 --> 00:13:13.224 tools that are working with the ESP. 00:13:13.644 --> 00:13:18.064 And then it's rebuilding firmware, compiling that to C++ and flashing it. 00:13:18.064 --> 00:13:22.424 And then as we went on, because the context window on this thing is so freaking 00:13:22.424 --> 00:13:25.404 huge, it was remembering, oh, this is a major breakthrough. 00:13:25.544 --> 00:13:29.304 I'll update their agents MD or, hey, if we enable this on the command line, 00:13:29.404 --> 00:13:33.004 we also and even though we would forget, it would remember, I also need to make 00:13:33.004 --> 00:13:37.344 sure it's working in the MQTT layer and it would keep catching stuff that we would forget. 00:13:38.603 --> 00:13:46.683 And we used this for hours, 12 hours maybe, and we got to 21% of the context window. 00:13:46.803 --> 00:13:51.983 So it was so useful. It was bonkers because it took the little bit of knowledge 00:13:51.983 --> 00:13:54.263 we had and extended it away further. 00:13:54.463 --> 00:13:58.103 And we got to a point where this thing was originally we had the upstream image 00:13:58.103 --> 00:14:01.583 wasn't fully functional. It was a bit broken. It had the voltages reversed. 00:14:01.923 --> 00:14:04.983 Instead of not sending voltage, it was sending. 00:14:05.123 --> 00:14:08.663 Instead of not, it was, et cetera. It had it backwards. it fixed 00:14:08.663 --> 00:14:11.783 that but additionally the ability to swap between the different images super 00:14:11.783 --> 00:14:14.883 quick and then figure out where the mistake was 00:14:14.883 --> 00:14:19.583 patch the upstream project recompile 00:14:19.583 --> 00:14:22.563 the image and reflash it it's really helpful 00:14:22.563 --> 00:14:25.363 was it was bonkers the progress we started 00:14:25.363 --> 00:14:28.283 making once we got there because we went from just guessing and guessing 00:14:28.283 --> 00:14:31.883 and guessing to actually being able to work 00:14:31.883 --> 00:14:35.063 with the thing and then it would develop like test 00:14:35.063 --> 00:14:37.743 sequences and it would say okay are you ready 00:14:37.743 --> 00:14:40.863 i'm gonna and then it would it would get your multimeter out we get the multimeter 00:14:40.863 --> 00:14:45.123 out and it would run through test sequences and test sequences and then we realized 00:14:45.123 --> 00:14:49.263 we could do it even more efficient because we kept thinking you know we are 00:14:49.263 --> 00:14:52.743 the slow point here we have to like we have to go get the multimeter and we're 00:14:52.743 --> 00:14:56.523 holding it here and then we're telling the machine what the readings are you're. 00:14:56.523 --> 00:14:57.183 Being its hands. 00:14:57.183 --> 00:15:01.183 And so one of the nice breakthroughs we had was we could actually get the machine 00:15:01.183 --> 00:15:03.763 to read its own voltage levels you want to talk about that a little bit i. 00:15:03.763 --> 00:15:04.903 Was it was such a. 00:15:04.903 --> 00:15:09.543 Bonkers realization esp32 pros they know all this already but yes. 00:15:09.543 --> 00:15:13.603 We are learning thank you for your patience with us uh it was late last night 00:15:13.603 --> 00:15:18.423 and i'm holding this volt meter on these esp pins so that we could try to interpret 00:15:18.423 --> 00:15:22.143 you know how much voltage is on the pins and relay that back to the machine 00:15:22.143 --> 00:15:25.303 who's helping us you know fix all the problems and, 00:15:26.394 --> 00:15:28.994 And I was like, Chris, my hand is getting sore. And he's like, 00:15:29.094 --> 00:15:33.134 I'm tired of like having to give it input the whole time because it was really 00:15:33.134 --> 00:15:35.334 slowing down the feedback loop. 00:15:35.634 --> 00:15:38.694 It was doing great when it was rebuilding ESP to get it working. 00:15:38.814 --> 00:15:42.734 But then when we had to provide it voltage values, everything just slowed to a crawl. 00:15:44.114 --> 00:15:48.094 So it turns out, I don't know how you found this, Chris, but thank you. 00:15:48.234 --> 00:15:51.494 It turns out you can just use the ESP to tell you the voltage. 00:15:51.734 --> 00:15:54.874 So you just do a little jumper to a different pin. And then all of a sudden, 00:15:55.054 --> 00:16:01.534 OpenCode had the ability to modify its software and then do the testing by itself 00:16:01.534 --> 00:16:03.414 and cut out the human completely. 00:16:03.594 --> 00:16:07.414 So the feedback loop was very fast and it was able to work through some of the 00:16:07.414 --> 00:16:09.034 bugs extremely quickly. 00:16:09.274 --> 00:16:11.154 I think Graham's going to be real proud of you boys. 00:16:11.994 --> 00:16:15.554 And Chris and I were just looking at each other with these massive grins, 00:16:15.554 --> 00:16:17.854 just thinking, this is fabulous. 00:16:17.854 --> 00:16:23.234 And it's exactly, Wes, what we saw Graham doing last episode when he described 00:16:23.234 --> 00:16:29.714 that he had a bunch of hardware that he was reverse engineering with microcontrollers to get them, 00:16:29.914 --> 00:16:36.014 like, to make that connection between artificial intelligence helping you with actual real hardware. 00:16:36.134 --> 00:16:40.854 And we accidentally ran into building the same type of machine, 00:16:40.854 --> 00:16:44.614 let's call it, through this diesel heater. It was really, really fun. 00:16:44.614 --> 00:16:49.194 And the reason why it was great to get this voltage information back automatically 00:16:49.194 --> 00:16:53.214 is because the way you can tell if the heater has been triggered or if it's 00:16:53.214 --> 00:16:56.534 shutting down is by reading the voltage levels on one of the pins. 00:16:56.754 --> 00:17:01.514 And so once it could read the voltage level itself, it was able to determine 00:17:01.514 --> 00:17:03.294 if what it had tried had worked or not. 00:17:03.474 --> 00:17:08.574 So the loop of like, try this, does it work? Nope. It would just start speeding up. Yeah. 00:17:09.702 --> 00:17:10.642 You guys had a lunch? 00:17:10.882 --> 00:17:13.982 Well, it was tough. It was like 10.30 last night. We're like, 00:17:14.082 --> 00:17:17.102 we got to pause because we got to go to bed because we got a show to do tomorrow. 00:17:17.262 --> 00:17:18.862 The humans need to rest. It was ready to keep going. 00:17:20.922 --> 00:17:26.402 Another thing it helped with is that we were trying to trigger the heater to 00:17:26.402 --> 00:17:30.242 turn on and off just by shorting one of the micro buttons. 00:17:30.682 --> 00:17:35.122 So it's a little micro switch, and that's what you push your thumb on the controller 00:17:35.122 --> 00:17:38.182 to turn this thing on and off. But we wanted to do that programmatically. 00:17:38.922 --> 00:17:43.822 and so the advice in many of these projects was to use a transistor and i had 00:17:43.822 --> 00:17:48.642 never used a transistor before we on the show have used relays uh turns out 00:17:48.642 --> 00:17:53.302 it's just a itty bitty little relay kind of ish west um yeah. 00:17:53.302 --> 00:17:55.442 Just with more uh quantum physics helping you out. 00:17:55.442 --> 00:18:01.242 Exactly yeah it's more sophisticated yeah i could see jeff now just like i know i know you're. 00:18:01.242 --> 00:18:04.222 Catching up you're getting from like the 1910s to you know yeah. 00:18:04.222 --> 00:18:08.242 Well the thing is i would have never 1960s i would have never tried this without 00:18:08.242 --> 00:18:11.542 like a helping hand so one of the helping hands was these projects having done 00:18:11.542 --> 00:18:16.022 it before and providing a little bit of guidance but the other one was working through, 00:18:16.622 --> 00:18:21.802 my mistakes of implementing the wiring because uh the computer can't do the 00:18:21.802 --> 00:18:25.262 wiring so i had to do the wiring unfortunately but i was learning much doing 00:18:25.262 --> 00:18:28.642 it but you got to water it correctly so that. 00:18:28.642 --> 00:18:30.222 Does help wiring it correctly does help. 00:18:30.222 --> 00:18:37.342 So i was like hey computer um help me diagnose if i did the transistor properly. 00:18:37.342 --> 00:18:42.722 I'm just going to do another jumper to another pin and you tell me if it's firing 00:18:42.722 --> 00:18:44.422 properly by reading more voltage. 00:18:44.642 --> 00:18:49.642 So we had the ESP, you know, give some feedback again to make sure the human 00:18:49.642 --> 00:18:52.442 put the transistor in the right place and the little wires in the right place. 00:18:52.502 --> 00:18:52.962 It's useful. 00:18:53.122 --> 00:18:57.702 And it turned out then it could also know if it pushed the physical button for us. 00:18:57.762 --> 00:19:01.222 So it just made tons of progress and brought us, 00:19:02.294 --> 00:19:06.054 Learning about ESPs in ways that I don't think we would have ran into had we 00:19:06.054 --> 00:19:10.614 just been sitting there like we did a couple of months ago, just tinkering on the ESPs. 00:19:10.774 --> 00:19:14.954 It's such a it's such a fun project because it's a little bit it's like real 00:19:14.954 --> 00:19:21.854 baby electrical stuff and it's a little bit building and it's a little bit of this ESP coding stuff. 00:19:22.983 --> 00:19:26.943 And that in itself is such an educational, rewarding experience that even if 00:19:26.943 --> 00:19:29.743 it didn't work with Home Assistant afterwards, and even if I wasn't automating 00:19:29.743 --> 00:19:32.003 this thing now, it's like I would still do this. 00:19:32.223 --> 00:19:32.363 Yeah. 00:19:32.663 --> 00:19:36.003 You know, it's a lot of fun because you take something that was this total proprietary 00:19:36.003 --> 00:19:41.883 black box, you physically wire into it, and then you begin controlling it with an open source stack. 00:19:42.083 --> 00:19:47.243 It felt like a superpower. It really does. Finally regaining control over what 00:19:47.243 --> 00:19:51.223 was otherwise just a black box that you had an on-off button, and that's about it. 00:19:51.223 --> 00:19:55.343 And it stands out to me like any time in like software development or projects 00:19:55.343 --> 00:19:58.843 that you can have like a short feedback loop where you can try stuff and get 00:19:58.843 --> 00:20:02.963 actual feedback on did that work or not really helps. And it sounds like that's 00:20:02.963 --> 00:20:04.443 exactly what you guys got for yourselves. 00:20:04.623 --> 00:20:07.363 And we just learn more about the device itself. You learn more about how the 00:20:07.363 --> 00:20:10.183 device operates, more about its safety features, which I actually was walked 00:20:10.183 --> 00:20:11.903 away fairly impressed with after this. 00:20:12.123 --> 00:20:15.723 And its simplicity and its design, which is just before it was literally a black 00:20:15.723 --> 00:20:17.043 box. It's really something. 00:20:17.283 --> 00:20:20.203 And the superpowers to be able to kind of work through it and iterate. 00:20:20.203 --> 00:20:23.903 age you know we went from something that initially we thought this is too far 00:20:23.903 --> 00:20:27.803 from the upstream projects we're not going to get this to before we left like 00:20:27.803 --> 00:20:30.743 it was working it was firing up the heater now we just need to get the data 00:20:30.743 --> 00:20:32.243 and stuff like that and sort it out but yeah. 00:20:32.243 --> 00:20:34.323 I was gonna ask what is the where did you leave it exactly. 00:20:34.323 --> 00:20:35.823 Yeah we. 00:20:35.823 --> 00:20:37.463 Just before the show like literally. 00:20:37.463 --> 00:20:43.443 Yeah well probably before the show had started yeah we were running late it was worth it yeah uh. 00:20:43.443 --> 00:20:49.903 Or you tell us audience, was it worth it? We had the ESP, well basically open 00:20:49.903 --> 00:20:51.943 code, was turning the heater on and off. 00:20:52.063 --> 00:20:52.183 Yeah. 00:20:52.523 --> 00:20:56.503 So the ESP was able to turn the heater on and off, transistor worked as expected, 00:20:56.983 --> 00:21:00.903 so that was shorting the little physical button to turn the heater on and turn 00:21:00.903 --> 00:21:06.523 it off with the appropriate amount of push button delay, because as humans we're slow, 00:21:06.643 --> 00:21:10.143 so you push the button for one second and it turns it on, you push it for three 00:21:10.143 --> 00:21:12.203 seconds and it turns it off, it was handling all of that. 00:21:13.682 --> 00:21:16.902 Basic button pushing, check, right? That's completed. 00:21:16.902 --> 00:21:19.382 And that works for anything. Your furnace, fan. 00:21:19.822 --> 00:21:22.242 Think of everywhere there's a microswitch, which is everywhere. 00:21:22.422 --> 00:21:24.302 Anywhere there's, yeah, like all those buttons you have to press, 00:21:24.382 --> 00:21:28.922 you now can remote control. Crazy. You know, a water kettle, like it's crazy. 00:21:29.042 --> 00:21:29.882 Everything. It's so bonkers. 00:21:29.882 --> 00:21:32.942 It's such an unlock at the basic level. It's really exciting. 00:21:33.062 --> 00:21:36.302 Especially when you consider the diagnosis part of it. 00:21:36.622 --> 00:21:41.782 If you can also use an ESP to diagnose electronics, then this takes it to a whole other. 00:21:42.002 --> 00:21:43.562 Yeah, your whole test bench is upgraded. 00:21:43.682 --> 00:21:45.522 Mm-hmm. So we got to the- You know. 00:21:45.582 --> 00:21:49.322 What's funny is not how we expected this to go. No. Did not expect it to go this direction. 00:21:49.482 --> 00:21:49.602 No. 00:21:49.822 --> 00:21:50.102 It was just. 00:21:50.102 --> 00:21:53.102 Totally- You started off very analog, right? Just torn apart regular diesel heater. 00:21:53.222 --> 00:21:55.842 With a, yeah, and a VU meter and some wires, and yeah. VU meter. 00:21:55.842 --> 00:21:57.742 It started very analog. Very dirty. 00:21:57.902 --> 00:21:59.022 It's a multimeter, Chris. 00:21:59.022 --> 00:22:00.142 Yeah, how much diesel did you spell? 00:22:00.282 --> 00:22:02.302 It's a VU meter, and you know it. That's what we call it around here, 00:22:02.422 --> 00:22:03.382 and we're sticking with it. 00:22:03.782 --> 00:22:08.602 Soundboard guy. So we're in the state where it can be turned on and off, which is fabulous. 00:22:08.902 --> 00:22:12.442 I mean, if, Chris, you could live with just that, I think you'd be happy. 00:22:12.642 --> 00:22:12.762 Yep. 00:22:12.762 --> 00:22:15.022 But, you know, we've got to push it a little bit. 00:22:15.222 --> 00:22:16.102 We'll get the data. 00:22:16.222 --> 00:22:20.642 We want this UART protocol to be able to be read in Home Assistant as well. 00:22:20.942 --> 00:22:25.122 There seems to be a little bit more reverse engineering work to do there, 00:22:25.142 --> 00:22:28.962 but OpenCode is sitting there waiting for us when we get back from recording 00:22:28.962 --> 00:22:31.582 the show so that we can continue that reverse engineering. 00:22:31.582 --> 00:22:34.502 It's like a 21% context or 24%, something like that. So, yeah, 00:22:34.622 --> 00:22:35.602 we're good to go for a while. 00:22:36.422 --> 00:22:37.422 Jeff had a question. 00:22:37.542 --> 00:22:37.662 Yeah. 00:22:39.029 --> 00:22:42.069 Uh, well, it turns out it's not answered yet because you're not finished. 00:22:42.729 --> 00:22:44.649 Oh, I think we're, yeah, go ahead. 00:22:44.889 --> 00:22:48.629 Okay. I was wondering, uh, where, where do you finish? 00:22:48.729 --> 00:22:53.009 Like what, what, what, what do you think you end up using as a base on the ESP? 00:22:53.129 --> 00:22:57.529 Are you going to try to integrate this into ESP home or something else? 00:22:57.709 --> 00:23:01.049 You know, what, what's the connection point between the ESP and home assistant? 00:23:01.309 --> 00:23:02.409 How's that going to work? What do you think? 00:23:02.689 --> 00:23:06.649 Yeah. My goal is, is once we kind of get it basically operational to do like 00:23:06.649 --> 00:23:09.189 an ESP home takeover, I'm hoping, you know, that I'll be able to, 00:23:09.289 --> 00:23:12.549 it'll show up in my ESP home dashboard and then I'll just do a takeover and 00:23:12.549 --> 00:23:15.769 control it from there and just do updates as I do them. 00:23:16.449 --> 00:23:19.229 And then, of course, it'll show up, all those will just show up as inputs, 00:23:19.449 --> 00:23:23.649 sensor data and controls to Home Assistant, which is really going to be the big deal. 00:23:24.149 --> 00:23:28.609 You know, I'm in bed and it's cold, hit a button and the heater turns on. I'm going to love that. 00:23:29.129 --> 00:23:32.369 And also it'll be interesting to get, once you have this, I'll have usage data. 00:23:32.369 --> 00:23:36.529 So I'll know how long it runs and those things and maybe even what gear it ran 00:23:36.529 --> 00:23:38.289 in for how long, which is important with these things. 00:23:38.429 --> 00:23:43.369 I was just thinking the exact same thing as we drove from the farm to the studio 00:23:43.369 --> 00:23:47.509 past when the show was supposed to have started because we were playing with this. 00:23:48.329 --> 00:23:51.949 All these ideas of what we could be recording, like you said, 00:23:52.169 --> 00:23:56.049 like hours of service. That's not a piece of data you have currently, but that's trivial. 00:23:56.469 --> 00:23:57.689 It has it. It just doesn't share it. 00:23:57.869 --> 00:23:58.269 Yeah. 00:23:58.549 --> 00:23:59.269 Until now. 00:23:59.569 --> 00:24:02.969 It's so trivial to get in, right? Right. So your maintenance cycle, 00:24:03.069 --> 00:24:05.169 you won't have to wait till it breaks next time. 00:24:05.309 --> 00:24:09.509 You'll kind of have an idea of when you should invite Brent over to rebuild it. 00:24:09.609 --> 00:24:13.229 We really need our society to get to a point where everything is like this. 00:24:13.329 --> 00:24:16.309 And you don't have to use it as a consumer, but it's there if you want to, 00:24:16.369 --> 00:24:20.229 because you put a little open source in it and it just gets so much more useful. 00:24:20.929 --> 00:24:23.849 And honestly, I'm going to maintain the thing better if I have this data, too. 00:24:24.329 --> 00:24:27.849 So that was pretty neat. I have no idea what you've been working on this week, 00:24:27.929 --> 00:24:29.769 Wes. Why don't you regale us with your tails? 00:24:31.194 --> 00:24:33.714 Well, yeah, actually, you're to blame with this. 00:24:33.934 --> 00:24:34.414 Oh, God. 00:24:34.594 --> 00:24:37.834 You know, we have a setup behind the scenes so we can kind of track what the 00:24:37.834 --> 00:24:40.154 rest of us are looking at and share links that we were following. 00:24:40.334 --> 00:24:44.614 You know, most, some, anyway, don't make it to the show, but some of them become segments. 00:24:44.874 --> 00:24:49.314 And this one did. Now, I've been using Firefox primarily. 00:24:49.994 --> 00:24:50.454 A while now. 00:24:50.614 --> 00:24:51.534 Yeah, a long time. 00:24:51.674 --> 00:24:52.314 Before it was cool. 00:24:53.334 --> 00:25:00.894 It's always been cool. but i saw you tag that chrome was working on like a sort 00:25:00.894 --> 00:25:03.854 of native mcp server for itself i. 00:25:03.854 --> 00:25:04.834 Think they've shipped it too. 00:25:04.834 --> 00:25:08.614 They have oh really yeah so that's what i got up to okay. 00:25:08.614 --> 00:25:14.774 So a native mpc npc npc no uh an mcp model context protocol in other words a 00:25:14.774 --> 00:25:17.314 way to remotely connect and communicate with chrome. 00:25:17.314 --> 00:25:20.734 Yeah and you know there's already these things like there's selenium and like 00:25:20.734 --> 00:25:25.034 the newer version of web driver bitty stuff and puppeteer so there's lots of 00:25:25.034 --> 00:25:27.214 ways to like connect to and drive browsers but. 00:25:27.214 --> 00:25:28.814 This is a vendor blessed method really. 00:25:28.814 --> 00:25:31.434 Uh yeah and the other part we should kind of 00:25:31.434 --> 00:25:34.274 like differentiate on is what you're trying to do so i've also 00:25:34.274 --> 00:25:37.914 played with some stuff like just this morning brent was looking at agent 00:25:37.914 --> 00:25:41.534 browser protocol deterministic browser automation uh 00:25:41.534 --> 00:25:44.494 this is another agent in the space uh we had previously 00:25:44.494 --> 00:25:48.174 kind of looked at camo fox which is kind of another player and these are more 00:25:48.174 --> 00:25:52.794 projects in like give your agent its own browser often headless like for its 00:25:52.794 --> 00:25:57.294 own automation use where at least right now i mean you could do either of these 00:25:57.294 --> 00:26:03.074 but what i was interested in is like bringing the agent into your existing current browser. 00:26:03.902 --> 00:26:07.262 Because then I guess it has your credentials, it has your user session information. 00:26:07.462 --> 00:26:09.822 Yeah, and I don't need to do maybe everything, but like there might be some 00:26:09.822 --> 00:26:12.402 stuff I want to automate or some page or just even be able to, 00:26:12.462 --> 00:26:14.562 you know, take a look, double check things. 00:26:14.982 --> 00:26:18.582 I mean, I'll tell you, I don't know if this is a use case you would use, 00:26:18.662 --> 00:26:23.042 but I could see a valid use case being you want to automate some job searches or something like that. 00:26:23.382 --> 00:26:23.662 Totally. 00:26:23.802 --> 00:26:25.442 And you're trying to just create a list of possible job searches. 00:26:25.562 --> 00:26:28.622 I could see that as a very valid use case for this that isn't necessarily abuse. 00:26:28.662 --> 00:26:30.762 And it's just something you're personally doing. You're not doing it at scale. 00:26:30.962 --> 00:26:34.282 Well, and like, yeah, exactly. Right. You could talk about, like, 00:26:34.562 --> 00:26:38.002 scraping at scale and all kinds of stuff that have their own issues, but... 00:26:39.356 --> 00:26:43.956 What you were doing in the last segment, it's kind of like letting a lot of 00:26:43.956 --> 00:26:45.756 these LLMs sort of be your hands, right? 00:26:45.836 --> 00:26:50.176 Like now the agent is the interface and you're still doing the same stuff you would do. 00:26:50.356 --> 00:26:53.456 It's just kind of executing the individual steps and you give it a higher level. 00:26:53.656 --> 00:26:53.876 You've delegated. 00:26:54.216 --> 00:26:59.116 And what is like one of the primary interfaces that we use for like almost all of our tasks every day? 00:26:59.276 --> 00:26:59.776 The web browser. 00:26:59.916 --> 00:27:02.816 That's right. And so to me, it's sort of like extending that where now I can 00:27:02.816 --> 00:27:08.216 talk to the web browser and get tasks done that I would do manually myself anyway. 00:27:08.336 --> 00:27:09.396 Okay. Sounds fair. 00:27:09.876 --> 00:27:14.736 So as an experiment, I often place, pick up grocery orders for myself. 00:27:14.876 --> 00:27:18.436 You know, I go out, I take a dog walk, and it's pretty easy if I've placed an 00:27:18.436 --> 00:27:21.216 order, I can just pick that up on the way back home, then bring it out to the car. 00:27:21.336 --> 00:27:23.776 Works well. And not as many fees as delivery. 00:27:25.276 --> 00:27:29.656 But while the vendor website isn't horrible, it's still kind of a pain to do. 00:27:29.856 --> 00:27:30.396 I can imagine. 00:27:30.536 --> 00:27:34.476 I was looking, they have an API. I just hadn't had time with the trip and all 00:27:34.476 --> 00:27:35.976 that to really look into doing that. 00:27:36.456 --> 00:27:37.956 Your grocery store has an API? 00:27:37.956 --> 00:27:41.896 They do, actually. So props there. Yeah, props. That's nice. 00:27:42.036 --> 00:27:42.996 So that did seem feasible. 00:27:43.276 --> 00:27:45.556 You couldn't place the order, but you could at least build a cart, 00:27:45.716 --> 00:27:48.156 which is probably more than good enough, right? That's the hard part. 00:27:48.776 --> 00:27:53.296 So I thought, you know, Brent and I like this Love Crunch granola. 00:27:53.356 --> 00:27:53.776 Yeah, we do. 00:27:53.936 --> 00:27:57.756 So I've already logged into a Chrome browser here, the latest version, 00:27:57.816 --> 00:27:59.456 which is already in the Upstream Nix packages. 00:27:59.996 --> 00:28:02.816 Yeah. And you could already do this. you 00:28:02.816 --> 00:28:06.236 do need like a little sidecar that's in npm that 00:28:06.236 --> 00:28:10.196 you run that kind of connects and translates mcp so you can drive it with any 00:28:10.196 --> 00:28:16.636 standard ai agent that can do mcp and connects to like the chrome remote debugging 00:28:16.636 --> 00:28:20.716 protocol okay what's new in the current version is that's made much more seamless 00:28:20.716 --> 00:28:25.716 now you turn on remote debugging in chrome and then when you start up, 00:28:26.468 --> 00:28:30.048 If you're using OpenCode, say, and you define in your config the MCP server 00:28:30.048 --> 00:28:34.388 you want to run, when it starts, it can automatically request from Chrome permission, 00:28:34.388 --> 00:28:37.708 and it just pops up a box and you hit OK, and then it's connected. 00:28:39.308 --> 00:28:42.728 And really, if you haven't messed with MCP, it's really just a standard protocol 00:28:42.728 --> 00:28:49.368 that is emitting standardized JSON back and forth that can be done over standard I.O. or over HTTP. 00:28:50.128 --> 00:28:53.568 It's just a way to send requests, and agents can use it to talk to a variety of servers. 00:28:53.588 --> 00:28:56.868 And which method is Chrome using? http i guess. 00:28:56.868 --> 00:29:01.368 Uh no in this case it's a standard io it is using http i believe then to do 00:29:01.368 --> 00:29:04.388 the remote debugging so you could probably do it either way interesting but 00:29:04.388 --> 00:29:07.508 in this case it was easy enough to just run it right from npm did. 00:29:07.508 --> 00:29:09.728 You uh task it to do something interesting or. 00:29:09.728 --> 00:29:12.468 Yeah so i've got it building me a cart here so i thought like. 00:29:12.468 --> 00:29:14.208 Oh you actually had to go through and do the shopping. 00:29:14.208 --> 00:29:17.808 Yeah so i have a started cart and i thought maybe i could see if it would add 00:29:17.808 --> 00:29:19.808 me some granola right here live for us oh. 00:29:19.808 --> 00:29:20.788 Yeah get some granola in there. 00:29:20.788 --> 00:29:21.628 Yeah especially. 00:29:21.628 --> 00:29:22.428 In case Brent visits. 00:29:22.428 --> 00:29:27.828 He loves that so I told it to um to search we'll see if it can manage that it's 00:29:27.828 --> 00:29:31.008 supposed to go search for the granola and so do you see chrome. 00:29:31.008 --> 00:29:33.908 Actually oh so you see it you see chrome actually doing it on the. 00:29:33.908 --> 00:29:36.248 Screen it's the real live oh my god. 00:29:36.248 --> 00:29:40.068 That's so crazy to watch it's typing it out right now in the search box, 00:29:41.509 --> 00:29:45.949 That is, of course, no suggestions came back. It did a perfect search, love crunch canola. 00:29:46.209 --> 00:29:49.669 But no, the search didn't return anything, but that's on the... 00:29:49.669 --> 00:29:51.629 Now it's continuing to the search page, though. 00:29:52.029 --> 00:29:55.969 So it's continuing. It realizes it didn't get results, and it's continuing to troubleshoot. 00:29:56.009 --> 00:30:01.069 Yeah, it's able to take snapshots, which give it sort of like text and what's on the page. 00:30:01.309 --> 00:30:02.069 Like actual pictures? 00:30:02.329 --> 00:30:05.169 Well, so that's like one version. And then, yes, it can take a screenshot. 00:30:05.469 --> 00:30:09.949 So it's getting a version that it can process, some sort of text version it can process. 00:30:09.949 --> 00:30:12.609 Yeah, from the Chrome DevTools sort of setup. 00:30:12.809 --> 00:30:14.889 And then if it needs to, it takes a screenshot. Wow. 00:30:15.169 --> 00:30:17.049 And then from that, it can find stuff to click. 00:30:17.229 --> 00:30:21.809 Does that just litter your file system with screenshots? That's the future West Browse. 00:30:21.849 --> 00:30:22.629 Yeah, that's a good question. 00:30:23.729 --> 00:30:25.449 Security breach. Security breach. 00:30:25.509 --> 00:30:33.149 I am using another testing-free model, Healer Alpha, because it's like a multimodal 00:30:33.149 --> 00:30:36.289 model that includes vision. So it's good at processing the screenshot. 00:30:36.469 --> 00:30:39.529 Oh, interesting. Okay. Right, I guess that would be a thing you'd need. 00:30:39.529 --> 00:30:42.849 Yeah, okay. Added successfully, cart now shows three items, and the Lovecrunch 00:30:42.849 --> 00:30:45.289 shows quantity controls with one in cart. 00:30:45.869 --> 00:30:51.869 And then I could ask it, take me back to the cart and show me my total. 00:30:52.029 --> 00:30:56.049 And now it's going to just connect to the browser and go back to the cart, shopping cart. 00:30:57.349 --> 00:31:00.149 That's pretty fun. I mean, you could definitely see that would be very useful 00:31:00.149 --> 00:31:02.149 also for testing, web testing. 00:31:02.329 --> 00:31:06.989 Oh, sure. Yeah. It's kind of like a puppeteer or a playwright on steroids. 00:31:07.149 --> 00:31:10.669 But now that they've built more of this into Chrome, you're going to see a lot 00:31:10.669 --> 00:31:12.929 of tools standardized around that, I would think. 00:31:13.009 --> 00:31:16.689 So I was curious, like, am I limited to Chrome? I think it might be slightly 00:31:16.689 --> 00:31:19.769 more well built out. But there is another option for Firefox. 00:31:20.009 --> 00:31:20.329 Oh, there is. 00:31:20.489 --> 00:31:26.849 Firefox DevTools MCP, MIT license. Now, I don't think right now this one lets 00:31:26.849 --> 00:31:30.149 you connect to a running instance, or at least that wasn't in their docs. 00:31:30.169 --> 00:31:31.149 You might be able to make it work. 00:31:31.449 --> 00:31:36.009 So right now you can point it at your existing profile, but it launches its own Firefox instance. 00:31:36.269 --> 00:31:39.169 Okay. And it's not upstream from Mozilla. 00:31:39.309 --> 00:31:39.589 Correct. 00:31:39.729 --> 00:31:39.949 Uh-huh. 00:31:40.669 --> 00:31:45.409 But the one I did end up trying, and it didn't quite have, like, 00:31:45.489 --> 00:31:48.529 I think right now it can do stuff with different tabs, but it couldn't make 00:31:48.529 --> 00:31:51.209 or close tabs, which the Chrome one can do. 00:31:51.449 --> 00:31:53.609 But something called LittleFox MCP. 00:31:54.429 --> 00:31:57.749 This one's kind of interesting. So it's, you actually just, I just cloned it 00:31:57.749 --> 00:31:59.909 down and built it locally with NPM. 00:32:00.349 --> 00:32:06.009 And then you set up some sort of Firefox native messaging, a little JSON file 00:32:06.009 --> 00:32:08.149 you copy to your Firefox configuration. 00:32:08.669 --> 00:32:13.269 And then you can, it has an extension that you load as a temporary extension 00:32:13.269 --> 00:32:15.449 in the about debugging area of Firefox. 00:32:15.789 --> 00:32:19.649 And then that's an extension running in Firefox that exposes Firefox's debugging 00:32:19.649 --> 00:32:23.909 capabilities as an MCP server directly. And then you can just connect to it. 00:32:24.667 --> 00:32:28.327 And that actually worked great. I think it was maybe not quite yet as fully 00:32:28.327 --> 00:32:32.567 capable as the Chrome version, but it did also, it was able to take pretty clever advantage. 00:32:32.747 --> 00:32:37.047 It has an inject JavaScript feature. So then the LLM can write its own JavaScript 00:32:37.047 --> 00:32:40.507 that gets run in the context of the page, which you can do a lot with. 00:32:41.107 --> 00:32:43.467 Whoa. Yeah, you could. Huh. 00:32:43.647 --> 00:32:47.947 So it isn't quite as like native and upstream quite as the Chrome version, 00:32:48.147 --> 00:32:50.327 but Firefox isn't totally left behind. 00:32:50.567 --> 00:32:53.367 This is going to be huge for testing. And I hope, you know, these options to 00:32:53.367 --> 00:32:56.927 Firefox, at least you got some options. It's not so bad. That little fox is adorable. 00:32:57.267 --> 00:33:01.007 And, you know, even if you don't want to have, like, it works great with LLMs 00:33:01.007 --> 00:33:03.547 driving it, but even if you don't want to, MCP is a totally standard protocol 00:33:03.547 --> 00:33:07.307 that you can call from regular scripts or CLIs as well. 00:33:07.907 --> 00:33:11.167 Well, that's fun. Thanks for digging into that, Wes. I was very curious about that. 00:33:11.267 --> 00:33:13.207 And, yeah, it's really easy. You don't even need any flags anymore. 00:33:13.367 --> 00:33:17.227 You can just get the latest Chrome and then go into their debugging config, 00:33:17.787 --> 00:33:19.007 remote debugging and turn that on. 00:33:19.707 --> 00:33:24.967 All right. I have a question. I want to ask the audience, what is the most underpowered 00:33:24.967 --> 00:33:27.267 hardware that you're using for something right now? 00:33:27.707 --> 00:33:31.047 And it doesn't have to be this exact moment, but something that was way underpowered 00:33:31.047 --> 00:33:35.007 for the job, but you kept on using it for longer than you should have or something like that. 00:33:35.507 --> 00:33:39.707 Boost in, tell us. It shows a very audience supported at the moment, 00:33:39.727 --> 00:33:41.567 and that could be a great excuse to support us with a boost. 00:33:41.807 --> 00:33:45.847 Your most underpowered hardware you used for the job, boost in and let us know 00:33:45.847 --> 00:33:48.827 because I have a sense it's going to be a great conversation. 00:33:52.027 --> 00:33:56.127 Well, you can help the show reach lucky 13 years old by becoming a member or 00:33:56.127 --> 00:34:00.687 sending a boost, linuxunplugged.com slash membership or support the whole network at jupyter.party. 00:34:00.767 --> 00:34:04.627 You get access to an ad-free version of the show, which that may be of interest 00:34:04.627 --> 00:34:07.907 to you, or you get the bootleg version, which is a lot more show, 00:34:08.067 --> 00:34:09.707 more beginning and after. 00:34:09.947 --> 00:34:13.387 The show keeps on going, did you even know? So you get access to either one 00:34:13.387 --> 00:34:17.567 of those if you become a Jupyter Party member or a Linux Unplugged core contributor. 00:34:17.747 --> 00:34:20.367 You can also support each production. If there was something you liked or you 00:34:20.367 --> 00:34:22.787 want to contribute a little additional value, You can boost in. 00:34:23.227 --> 00:34:26.727 Fountain is making it very, very easy these days. And there's a plethora of 00:34:26.727 --> 00:34:29.407 options over at newpodcastapps.com. 00:34:29.567 --> 00:34:34.547 And the direct audience support will help us get to 13 years of the Unplugged program. 00:34:37.918 --> 00:34:41.418 Well, while I was taking apart your diesel heater and then putting it back together 00:34:41.418 --> 00:34:45.018 again and taking it apart again, you were working on a migration. 00:34:45.298 --> 00:34:49.698 Yeah, a bit of an urgent migration, you might say. So just a quick, quick recap. 00:34:50.118 --> 00:34:55.038 I have been using my custom Hypervibe distribution for about seven months, 00:34:55.038 --> 00:34:59.378 and it now expands across three systems. It's a multi-host Hypervibe, 00:34:59.458 --> 00:35:01.218 and it's worked well for me. 00:35:01.298 --> 00:35:03.558 Some sort of, almost like a Zerg base, it sounds like. 00:35:03.558 --> 00:35:08.278 Yeah. And like a Zerg base, it has a tendency to grow and grow. 00:35:08.618 --> 00:35:11.838 And affect. Maybe it's the user. I'm not quite sure. 00:35:12.038 --> 00:35:16.758 But it had drifted over time, and I started incorporating more server-in-server 00:35:16.758 --> 00:35:23.138 stuff because my B-Link was one of my more robust systems, and it had an AMD, a GPU of types. 00:35:23.378 --> 00:35:28.778 And so I just kept doing more stuff, like local LMs and databases and all kinds 00:35:28.778 --> 00:35:32.418 of little services. And it just was getting way, way out of scope. 00:35:33.138 --> 00:35:36.338 And that's fine. You know, I could deal with it. Didn't really, 00:35:36.438 --> 00:35:40.038 Hypervibe kind of drifted from its purpose as a desktop and had become sort 00:35:40.038 --> 00:35:43.778 of this local desktop server conglomerate. 00:35:44.098 --> 00:35:46.658 I was going to leave it like that for longer than I really should, 00:35:46.858 --> 00:35:48.658 but fate had forced my hand. 00:35:48.958 --> 00:35:49.018 Oh. 00:35:49.338 --> 00:35:54.758 Right before, well, okay, about three months ago, I started having file system issues. 00:35:55.478 --> 00:36:02.298 there was a block on my mvme that butterfs determined was bad but yet the disk 00:36:02.298 --> 00:36:06.678 had not marked bad yet so there was maybe a bit of aggressive precaution on 00:36:06.678 --> 00:36:11.718 butterfs's part and the mvme's firmware had not yet decided i'm going to declare this section bad, 00:36:12.538 --> 00:36:16.338 but it doesn't matter if because or butterfs decided it was that it was and 00:36:16.338 --> 00:36:20.498 so the way around it was to mirror the file system so that way i and then it 00:36:20.498 --> 00:36:24.638 would actually mark that sector bad in the mirroring process. 00:36:24.878 --> 00:36:25.858 And then read from the other... 00:36:27.433 --> 00:36:31.373 This is like another disk, physical solid-state disk? 00:36:31.553 --> 00:36:34.593 So I got an MVME in there, and then I put another, which is one terabyte. 00:36:34.913 --> 00:36:38.573 And then on the bottom, you can install a 2.5 SSD. 00:36:38.953 --> 00:36:42.873 And so I put a 2.5 one terabyte that I had laying around, which at this point 00:36:42.873 --> 00:36:46.753 is precious. So I'd actually had plans for other things. But this way it goes. 00:36:47.613 --> 00:36:52.393 Mirrored it, and I got myself through the holidays to basically right before 00:36:52.393 --> 00:36:53.973 our trip to scale in Planet Nix. 00:36:54.913 --> 00:36:57.833 And I was doing some updates to make sure everything was stable before I left. 00:36:58.613 --> 00:37:01.073 And I started getting read-only file system errors again. 00:37:02.073 --> 00:37:05.433 And the only way to clear it is to reboot. And then just, if you aggressively 00:37:05.433 --> 00:37:08.573 use the system, you know, update packages and really use the hell out of the 00:37:08.573 --> 00:37:12.493 thing, it marks the file system read-only. And then you got to reboot again. 00:37:13.553 --> 00:37:19.113 So you have like a time basically ticking down to when you can't use your system anymore. 00:37:19.113 --> 00:37:20.353 A window of max usage. 00:37:20.513 --> 00:37:20.873 Wow. 00:37:21.153 --> 00:37:22.233 So while we were on the trip. 00:37:22.253 --> 00:37:25.393 That's a good stress test, really. You know, if you can make a system robust 00:37:25.393 --> 00:37:27.933 enough for that, then you'll probably work in any situation. 00:37:28.153 --> 00:37:31.293 So while we were on the trip, I did the right thing and I left it alone and 00:37:31.293 --> 00:37:34.033 just logged out of the desktop, didn't run any desktop apps, 00:37:34.213 --> 00:37:36.673 minimal usage. So the server stuff would still work. 00:37:36.873 --> 00:37:39.033 Wait, but didn't we do some upgrades while we were on? 00:37:39.153 --> 00:37:41.953 Yeah, then we went and did some upgrades because I needed some stuff to work. 00:37:42.033 --> 00:37:43.133 And then it flipped into read-only. 00:37:43.313 --> 00:37:46.633 I was going to say, there was at least one Airbnb night where we were just upgrading open class. 00:37:46.893 --> 00:37:50.493 Yeah, and it forced my system into read-only mode. And then I had to reboot 00:37:50.493 --> 00:37:52.613 this thing remotely when I wasn't sure what state it was in. 00:37:52.613 --> 00:37:53.273 Danger zone. 00:37:54.513 --> 00:37:59.713 Oh, so I had to fix this when I got back. So that was one of my priorities is 00:37:59.713 --> 00:38:02.313 to get working on migrating off this thing. 00:38:03.013 --> 00:38:07.613 And the problem was is this is one of these things like I actually wanted to 00:38:07.613 --> 00:38:12.013 do the right way and not like the sarcastic right way, but the real right way. 00:38:12.213 --> 00:38:14.933 And so I wanted to set up a new host. 00:38:15.893 --> 00:38:21.833 Take all these all these server side services I'd set up, migrate them to the new host and. 00:38:23.084 --> 00:38:27.644 And then start with a fresh, sort of divorce the configurations from Hypervibe 00:38:27.644 --> 00:38:32.344 and start with a new configuration that removes all the desktop and the Wayland 00:38:32.344 --> 00:38:35.224 and all of the desktop applications and is fresh. 00:38:35.404 --> 00:38:37.904 It's like open heart surgery performing over there. 00:38:38.044 --> 00:38:41.604 And so that took a little bit to just kind of, you know. 00:38:41.604 --> 00:38:45.264 I'm thinking it's more like, you know, that Voyager episode where B'Elanna Torres 00:38:45.264 --> 00:38:47.224 is infected with an alien parasite. 00:38:47.364 --> 00:38:47.544 Mm-hmm. 00:38:48.004 --> 00:38:49.064 Sounds kind of more like that. 00:38:49.164 --> 00:38:49.764 Yeah, I think you're right. 00:38:49.944 --> 00:38:52.624 It was. It was like that. And then extracting that took, you know. 00:38:52.624 --> 00:38:56.484 They've kind of grown codependent on things. They're sharing some of the same base infrastructure. 00:38:56.844 --> 00:39:00.064 And much like the doctor, I performed a miracle and saved the day. 00:39:00.364 --> 00:39:04.484 And I'm very proud of it. So I did. I actually, I took the time. 00:39:04.904 --> 00:39:08.584 I started, I think, was it Thursday, Brent? I don't remember now. I think it was Thursday. 00:39:08.944 --> 00:39:14.404 I started at 9 a.m. and I finished at 1130 p.m. And I don't even think I stopped 00:39:14.404 --> 00:39:16.304 for lunch or dinner or anything like that. 00:39:17.104 --> 00:39:20.964 Food was brought to me and I just worked that whole window of time, 00:39:21.504 --> 00:39:25.344 created the new separate configuration a different git repo for it got a clean 00:39:25.344 --> 00:39:29.204 good solid base went through it and tidied up the configuration because there'd 00:39:29.204 --> 00:39:32.764 been a lot of duplicate and drift over time made it really tight you. 00:39:32.764 --> 00:39:34.504 Mean your existing one or the new one. 00:39:34.504 --> 00:39:37.584 Well the new one was based it was forked from the okay i wasn't sure. 00:39:37.584 --> 00:39:38.264 Yeah so you like. 00:39:38.264 --> 00:39:41.804 Then i had to go back afterwards and clean that one up too so that. 00:39:41.804 --> 00:39:43.464 Was that your method was do a fork. 00:39:43.464 --> 00:39:45.064 And then remove. 00:39:45.064 --> 00:39:47.324 The other the complimentary hands from each one. 00:39:47.324 --> 00:39:52.364 Basically yes exactly okay that took a while there's a lot of little edge cases 00:39:52.364 --> 00:39:58.124 and small stuff my own my own fault letting it go this long but it was i was 00:39:58.124 --> 00:40:03.284 using the uh the sync set the think sentry mq970 i think it was a leader yeah 00:40:03.284 --> 00:40:05.444 920 thank you which already. 00:40:05.444 --> 00:40:06.644 We had nicks on and. 00:40:06.644 --> 00:40:08.224 Like a test setup yeah that. 00:40:08.224 --> 00:40:09.644 Uh came from a listener i think right. 00:40:09.644 --> 00:40:13.504 It did ah thank you oh my gosh came in as the kids would say clutch, 00:40:14.414 --> 00:40:19.774 So I got that all working. And then it was really a matter of migrating the data over, 00:40:20.094 --> 00:40:25.594 figuring all that stuff up and then going through and changing paths and fixing 00:40:25.594 --> 00:40:30.274 all that little stuff and trying to stabilize it out and then get the services 00:40:30.274 --> 00:40:33.114 working the way they should again and connecting to the right things. 00:40:33.114 --> 00:40:36.494 um but while i'm 00:40:36.494 --> 00:40:40.114 doing sort of the last phase of the data migration just 00:40:40.114 --> 00:40:43.174 copying like the files and the services 00:40:43.174 --> 00:40:48.374 and just getting all that over the disk on the b-link starts flipping in a read 00:40:48.374 --> 00:40:53.194 only mode on me and keeps interrupting the migration and i'm like come on i'm 00:40:53.194 --> 00:40:57.974 barely i'm like i'm like these are the last 10 of the migration i'm so close 00:40:57.974 --> 00:41:00.494 and it's fighting me the entire time. 00:41:00.734 --> 00:41:03.854 And I'm like doing everything I can. I'm like booting it into minimal mode with 00:41:03.854 --> 00:41:06.314 no graphical environment, just SSH going. 00:41:06.454 --> 00:41:09.734 And I'm trying to do like an SCP to get the last few files off this thing. 00:41:09.874 --> 00:41:13.794 And it made it, the last two hours take so long. 00:41:14.734 --> 00:41:15.674 But when I was done, 00:41:17.648 --> 00:41:21.868 I got it all working on the new, well, the new to me, Lenovo, 00:41:22.508 --> 00:41:24.588 working really great with a good, tight configuration. 00:41:25.808 --> 00:41:30.088 And when I stopped harassing the machine that I was migrating from and stabilized, 00:41:30.428 --> 00:41:35.088 I went back through, cleaned up all the configs, so it's just a Hypervibe-focused desktop again. 00:41:35.088 --> 00:41:35.768 That must have been nice. 00:41:35.788 --> 00:41:36.248 Oh, it is nice. 00:41:36.248 --> 00:41:38.808 You probably dropped so much from your next store. 00:41:38.808 --> 00:41:42.628 It does feel a little bit faster. Now it's dedicated again, and all that stuff's 00:41:42.628 --> 00:41:46.148 on its own isolated, dedicated hardware, which we have KVM set up for so I can 00:41:46.148 --> 00:41:47.868 fire up a few VMs. It's not going 00:41:47.868 --> 00:41:51.908 to be the final server home of all my stuff, but it's a good stopgap. 00:41:52.888 --> 00:41:57.368 And, you know, now if my desktop does fail on me and goes into permanent read-only 00:41:57.368 --> 00:42:01.088 mode, I don't lose all the server-side stuff when I go to nuke and pave and 00:42:01.088 --> 00:42:04.008 then stand it back up again. Like, all of that's been isolated out. 00:42:04.248 --> 00:42:07.768 But the timing of it, like, it couldn't have been crazier because I had that 00:42:07.768 --> 00:42:11.568 trip, and I didn't want to disrupt before I left, and I could tell it was going 00:42:11.568 --> 00:42:15.548 downhill. And then as I'm working on just, you know, it was a it was a fast 00:42:15.548 --> 00:42:16.888 copy, you know, it's a gigabit network. 00:42:17.028 --> 00:42:19.968 So it's not like it's slow, but like even just getting to the point of reading 00:42:19.968 --> 00:42:21.608 the file system was pushing it. 00:42:22.068 --> 00:42:24.208 So that's rough. Yeah. 00:42:24.508 --> 00:42:25.428 So it was time to move. 00:42:25.868 --> 00:42:29.348 Just in time. I couldn't believe how down to the wire that that became. 00:42:29.688 --> 00:42:32.768 How do you feel about data integrity of your clone? 00:42:33.128 --> 00:42:39.068 Good. I'm very happy with the process because it gave me a chance to recover. 00:42:39.068 --> 00:42:43.788 I have been using Restic to back up to an R2 storage bucket. 00:42:44.068 --> 00:42:45.528 And then so it gave me a chance to do some of that. 00:42:46.208 --> 00:42:50.888 And I found a bunch of like legacy config stuff that was from versions of projects 00:42:50.888 --> 00:42:55.908 that start with one name and then changed or upgraded or have a new image on whatever. 00:42:56.828 --> 00:43:00.048 Like it gave me a chance to go through and find all that stuff that had kind of drifted. 00:43:00.688 --> 00:43:04.628 So at the end of it, it was totally worth it. But always I sore. 00:43:04.828 --> 00:43:06.828 You know, because when you sit there at the computer like that hunched over 00:43:06.828 --> 00:43:08.488 for 12 hours, just like fever hacking. 00:43:09.657 --> 00:43:12.677 You end up like with a sore, at least I do. I ended up with like a sore back and all of that. 00:43:12.797 --> 00:43:16.297 It's especially rough because you sort of like get back to where you were before. 00:43:16.677 --> 00:43:19.737 In a better way, ready to build again, but just, you know. 00:43:19.997 --> 00:43:22.397 Yeah. Yeah, there is that aspect to it. It's. 00:43:23.137 --> 00:43:24.417 It must be done, right? 00:43:24.417 --> 00:43:29.417 It must be done. Yeah. And that Lenovo was the perfect machine for what I'm doing. 00:43:30.357 --> 00:43:33.417 It does have that PCI expansion slot. And so I am pondering, 00:43:33.557 --> 00:43:36.717 could I like drop an external GPU if I could get my hands on one? 00:43:37.797 --> 00:43:41.617 and now I still need to replace my Odroid with something else and I'm thinking 00:43:41.617 --> 00:43:42.957 maybe another ThinkCenter. 00:43:43.217 --> 00:43:46.597 All you need is another disk, Chris. That machine is fantastic. 00:43:47.537 --> 00:43:54.777 Yeah I am running a little baby Olama model on it and when it works it really pushes all the cores. 00:43:55.777 --> 00:43:59.097 There's no room. It's really pushing it. 00:43:59.177 --> 00:44:03.157 Although So you just refurb that to Brantley and then you get the new one leader. 00:44:03.297 --> 00:44:06.897 I have to be honest with you it 00:44:06.897 --> 00:44:09.797 really this hardware the ThinkCenter what is it the 9 00:44:09.797 --> 00:44:12.537 it's the M920Q thank you 00:44:12.537 --> 00:44:15.617 and it's got I think the best thing about it it's got 00:44:15.617 --> 00:44:23.057 32 gigs of RAM and it has two separate disks it has an NVMe for the system and 00:44:23.057 --> 00:44:29.757 a SATA it's kind of like my B-Link did it has a SATA for the VM images and the 00:44:29.757 --> 00:44:34.117 language models and what not and that's on a compressed BcacheFS file system, 00:44:34.757 --> 00:44:36.417 So it's really snappy and great. 00:44:37.057 --> 00:44:42.097 And it will load, but with 32 gigs of RAM and an i5 8500T, 00:44:43.452 --> 00:44:46.332 It really pushes the limits of what this thing can do. 00:44:46.512 --> 00:44:50.932 But I have to say, you would not know sitting right next to it. 00:44:51.012 --> 00:44:53.372 It doesn't make a bunch of noise. It's totally silent still. 00:44:53.872 --> 00:44:58.692 While I was tinkering with all these electronics and soldering various things 00:44:58.692 --> 00:45:03.172 to Chris's diesel heater, it was right there on the table next to me. 00:45:03.412 --> 00:45:08.712 And it was virtually silent. Like you were pushing that thing like crazy and you would never know it. 00:45:08.812 --> 00:45:15.312 And it was like a foot in front of my ear holes. So it, I think, really impressed me. 00:45:15.752 --> 00:45:19.452 Now, for the listeners that are sick of the AI stuff, I put this just in this 00:45:19.452 --> 00:45:20.652 section. I'll mention it really quick. 00:45:20.812 --> 00:45:23.932 One of the things I've been taking advantage of is an ACP. 00:45:24.602 --> 00:45:27.822 and open code so i can control open code remotely 00:45:27.822 --> 00:45:30.782 and so part of the migration when i had to step away i was literally doing 00:45:30.782 --> 00:45:33.742 through telegram and having to execute bits and 00:45:33.742 --> 00:45:36.402 to check like the scripts to make sure all the paths were updated and when 00:45:36.402 --> 00:45:39.382 we were doing stuff i could just keep working and then i came back for 00:45:39.382 --> 00:45:42.082 a bit and it was not so i could step out go take care of something with 00:45:42.082 --> 00:45:45.322 the kids come back sit back down and i never stopped the migration 00:45:45.322 --> 00:45:48.342 process ever like so the like total 00:45:48.342 --> 00:45:51.582 of two hours i was probably away from the screen i was still working on it and 00:45:51.582 --> 00:45:54.502 and being able to do this where i am delegating to 00:45:54.502 --> 00:45:58.302 a machine this and delegating to a machine and then it's just a matter of coming 00:45:58.302 --> 00:46:02.102 back and checking the work and making sure it all finished and it it really 00:46:02.102 --> 00:46:05.262 made it sort of like a con something i could continually do throughout throughout 00:46:05.262 --> 00:46:08.442 the entire day so that was really neat too and i just thought i'd mention that 00:46:08.442 --> 00:46:13.562 because why not let you step away let me step away and keep the process going which was and. 00:46:13.562 --> 00:46:16.262 Maybe means you could you know on a day you knew you'd be busy you might have 00:46:16.262 --> 00:46:20.002 a little more gumption to take on that task because you know like it can kind 00:46:20.002 --> 00:46:22.322 of run while you're off taking care of necessary things. 00:46:22.322 --> 00:46:25.662 Yeah we had brent at the farm you know you got to keep an eye on him kids are 00:46:25.662 --> 00:46:29.482 running around chasing brent usually usually chasing brent yeah it's. 00:46:29.482 --> 00:46:30.222 All the other way around. 00:46:30.222 --> 00:46:36.102 Yeah but it's pretty it was it was pretty neat to at the end of it be like it's 00:46:36.102 --> 00:46:39.522 totally done you know like a lot of times you do these kinds of projects and 00:46:39.522 --> 00:46:44.462 there's a few things that hang out there for a week or two but kind of doing 00:46:44.462 --> 00:46:47.282 that loop of okay check these paths check these files and doing all that it 00:46:47.282 --> 00:46:49.782 was when i was done at the end of the, at the marathon, 00:46:50.062 --> 00:46:52.542 it was totally done. Job finished. 00:46:52.962 --> 00:46:55.862 Oh, Chris, don't you know nothing around here is totally done? 00:46:56.042 --> 00:46:57.062 Yeah, I probably shouldn't say that. 00:46:58.434 --> 00:47:03.514 Well, we should mention that LinuxFest Northwest is just 40 days away. Just 40 days. 00:47:04.654 --> 00:47:09.874 Bellingham Technical College, the beautiful Pacific Northwest that time of year. April 24th to the 26th. 00:47:10.774 --> 00:47:12.694 So soon. So, so soon. 00:47:12.794 --> 00:47:14.074 We need to talk about our live show. 00:47:14.414 --> 00:47:18.274 Oh, yeah. We're doing a talk. Collective talk. It's not a talk. We're talking. 00:47:18.514 --> 00:47:19.614 Is that the plan? Is that what we're doing? 00:47:19.774 --> 00:47:21.974 Mm-hmm. We signed up. 00:47:22.574 --> 00:47:26.994 Yeah. So here's the thing. We got to decide if we want to do it in a room again 00:47:26.994 --> 00:47:29.674 or a booth. And I kind of vote booth, but then we have a booth. 00:47:31.454 --> 00:47:36.214 But, you know what I mean? But the thing is, is like the room thing hasn't been a great vibe. 00:47:36.754 --> 00:47:40.774 The trick with the room is all of a sudden we have to like filter in there and 00:47:40.774 --> 00:47:44.774 stand up our entire infrastructure, which is hard to do before a talk. 00:47:45.254 --> 00:47:48.114 They're not designed for people at computers. They're designed for people standing 00:47:48.114 --> 00:47:51.694 and doing a presentation. So when we're sitting, nobody can see us and we can't see them. 00:47:51.814 --> 00:47:55.334 But what they do have is loudspeakers. So we'd have to figure out. 00:47:55.614 --> 00:47:55.714 Yeah, and screens. 00:47:56.054 --> 00:47:57.154 That's also true. 00:47:57.154 --> 00:48:01.014 But if we got a booth at the TV screen and we brought a speaker we might be 00:48:01.014 --> 00:48:01.934 able to I don't know well you. 00:48:01.934 --> 00:48:03.074 Should ask the audience what. 00:48:03.074 --> 00:48:04.354 Do they want are you. 00:48:04.354 --> 00:48:07.634 Joining us LinuxFest Northwest just north of Seattle. 00:48:08.034 --> 00:48:10.834 And if so what do you want and if you've been to one what have you preferred 00:48:10.834 --> 00:48:12.054 at the booth or in the room. 00:48:12.814 --> 00:48:13.694 We're not doing both. 00:48:13.694 --> 00:48:18.054 No either one although it's one or the other although I also think it'd be really 00:48:18.054 --> 00:48:21.754 awesome if the weather was great to do it outside just saying wow. 00:48:22.414 --> 00:48:23.414 You're getting ambitious. 00:48:23.414 --> 00:48:27.174 Right just hook up use jupes for power I think that'd be pretty great Anyways, 00:48:27.354 --> 00:48:31.894 LinuxFest Northwest, if you want more details, it is LinuxFestNorthwest.org. 00:48:32.134 --> 00:48:35.054 We hope to see you. We'll be there with our bells on. 00:48:40.684 --> 00:48:43.504 Oh wow while we were busy working a bunch of boosts came 00:48:43.504 --> 00:48:46.624 in including a baller boost here from spooky set 00:48:46.624 --> 00:48:58.624 com two boosts came in for a total of 60 663 sets thank you for the readback 00:48:58.624 --> 00:49:03.324 of scale and planet nix last week sounded like a great time for you guys here's 00:49:03.324 --> 00:49:05.744 some value for your time there Thank you. 00:49:06.464 --> 00:49:12.384 We appreciate that. You know, it's a burden, but somebody has to do it. 00:49:12.464 --> 00:49:17.184 No, they're both actually a bit of a burden, I guess, but also we really enjoy it a lot. 00:49:18.084 --> 00:49:20.524 So we appreciate that. Also, Wes, get yourself ready. 00:49:21.444 --> 00:49:23.784 Grab your map because it is time. 00:49:23.844 --> 00:49:24.944 It's a zip code? 00:49:25.104 --> 00:49:29.684 I know. It's been a minute. There you go, buddy. There you go. 00:49:30.364 --> 00:49:32.984 Okay. So we got two seven... 00:49:34.784 --> 00:49:36.524 We've got to add an ESP to that thing. 00:49:37.404 --> 00:49:42.564 27330. That looks to be Sanford, North Carolina in Lee County. 00:49:42.884 --> 00:49:45.924 Hello, North Carolina. Thank you for boosting in. 00:49:45.984 --> 00:49:48.524 Tell me if I got that right. I feel rusty. It's been a minute. 00:49:49.284 --> 00:49:51.844 Also, I don't think there was any math in this zip code boost. 00:49:51.884 --> 00:49:52.544 It's so nice. 00:49:52.864 --> 00:49:53.944 It does make it easier. 00:49:54.224 --> 00:49:58.424 I love math. Something about show math. It's a whole other type of math. 00:49:58.664 --> 00:50:03.164 It is. It is. Outdoor Geek comes in with 50,000 SATs. 00:50:06.055 --> 00:50:11.055 Thank you for your coverage of scale in Planet Nix. Guys, thank you for recognizing the work there. 00:50:11.175 --> 00:50:15.695 I don't mean to sound weird about it, but it is a ton of ebbing work, 00:50:15.795 --> 00:50:18.715 and you have to schedule your life and travel, and it's hard on the body. 00:50:18.795 --> 00:50:21.435 It's hard on the family. So thank you very much, Outdoor Geek, 50,000 sats. 00:50:21.715 --> 00:50:23.955 And thank you, Spooky, for that as well. 00:50:24.735 --> 00:50:28.915 Turd Ferguson boosts in with 22,222 sats. 00:50:31.875 --> 00:50:35.755 Sending a McDuck-sized value for your coverage of Planet Nix and scale. 00:50:36.155 --> 00:50:38.375 Thanks for going for those of us who can't. 00:50:40.855 --> 00:50:44.715 Thank you, turd. Again, thank you. We appreciate that very, very much. 00:50:45.395 --> 00:50:49.955 Also, it was wonderful to see all of you who did make it. Seeing our own listeners 00:50:49.955 --> 00:50:51.535 at events like that is always our favorite. 00:50:51.615 --> 00:50:55.615 Names and faces. Names and faces. And it changes it for us. It probably changes 00:50:55.615 --> 00:50:58.035 it for them, too, in a weird way, but for us in a better way. 00:50:59.115 --> 00:51:03.295 Well, Morak boosted in 2,385 Zadoshis. 00:51:04.915 --> 00:51:07.015 long time listener first time 00:51:07.015 --> 00:51:11.375 booster love the show wish i could give more but thank you for what you do. 00:51:11.375 --> 00:51:16.615 Hey first time booster thank you thank you welcome aboard appreciate you very 00:51:16.615 --> 00:51:23.195 much gene bean is here with 4444 sats yeah that was two rows of duckos, 00:51:28.368 --> 00:51:32.088 Okay, guys, who was that extra person on the show for LUP657? 00:51:32.968 --> 00:51:35.948 Although apparently I didn't boost last episode enough, I thought about it several 00:51:35.948 --> 00:51:37.508 times. So here's a little bit extra. 00:51:37.628 --> 00:51:38.408 Oh, sweet. 00:51:38.868 --> 00:51:44.488 So we introduced producer Jason in the pre-pre-show, I believe. 00:51:44.668 --> 00:51:45.328 Classic us. 00:51:45.668 --> 00:51:47.088 Otherwise known as the members feed. 00:51:47.288 --> 00:51:53.068 Yeah. And so that was our bad. I think maybe the best way to get familiar would 00:51:53.068 --> 00:51:54.668 be to check out an old brunch with Brent. 00:51:54.928 --> 00:51:58.168 We do have a brunch with Brent. And if you look up Brunch with Brent, 00:51:58.348 --> 00:52:02.948 that's brunch.show, you can look for the dear old Jason Spizak, 00:52:03.048 --> 00:52:05.608 who we did a split episode. There's two episodes there. 00:52:06.268 --> 00:52:12.048 And Jason is a dear friend of the show and a dear friend of mine and also happens 00:52:12.048 --> 00:52:15.608 to be a professional voice actor, if you didn't notice. 00:52:15.908 --> 00:52:17.608 And part of the fun for us, right, is when we're down there, 00:52:17.688 --> 00:52:21.648 we get to see friends that we don't get to see otherwise. And he was in the 00:52:21.648 --> 00:52:22.648 area and was able to stay with us. 00:52:22.648 --> 00:52:26.928 I also might have been talking to him on the phone on the drive to the show 00:52:26.928 --> 00:52:30.728 today and got a tease that he might join us for LinuxFest Northwest. 00:52:31.088 --> 00:52:31.628 Oh, that'd be great. 00:52:31.848 --> 00:52:32.568 That'd be awesome. 00:52:32.708 --> 00:52:37.308 So we might have some live boost sounds for our live show at LinuxFest. 00:52:37.488 --> 00:52:43.408 Yeah, so we, I guess in our minds, we had checked that box and I apologize about that. 00:52:44.128 --> 00:52:47.128 And it's something we try to be better about. But when we're live and there's 00:52:47.128 --> 00:52:49.948 a lot going on, I think it was a little bit easier for us to lose track. 00:52:50.368 --> 00:52:53.828 Thank you, Gene. I'm glad you asked. and it's good to hear from you. Missed you. 00:52:54.288 --> 00:52:56.808 Magnolia Mayhem's here with a row of ducks. 00:52:58.215 --> 00:53:01.375 I may not be sitting on a pile big enough to send a million sats, 00:53:01.495 --> 00:53:03.275 but I hope this helps you recover from the trip. 00:53:03.415 --> 00:53:06.955 A row of ducks to celebrate the first eggs from our new ducks on the farm. 00:53:08.075 --> 00:53:08.695 That's sweet. 00:53:09.055 --> 00:53:12.095 I saw him in the chat room while we were talking about the ESP32 saying, 00:53:12.115 --> 00:53:13.895 I've got to do something like this for a chicken coop. 00:53:14.195 --> 00:53:16.535 I think that'd be really cool. Thank you for the row of ducks. 00:53:16.695 --> 00:53:18.475 Appreciate it. Thank you, everybody who boosted the show. 00:53:18.815 --> 00:53:22.455 We really do appreciate you. 2,000 sats is the cutoff to get it read on air. 00:53:22.855 --> 00:53:25.695 And, of course, thank you to those of you who stream sats just as you listen. 00:53:25.695 --> 00:53:31.375 And collectively, all of you stacked 36,532 SATs stream it. So it's a pretty 00:53:31.375 --> 00:53:32.275 good boost for this week. 00:53:33.095 --> 00:53:39.835 Really, thank you very much. That brings us to a grand total of 178,568 SATs. 00:53:44.317 --> 00:53:47.117 Not too bad. Thank you, everybody who supports the show. We really, 00:53:47.217 --> 00:53:50.097 really do appreciate it. Of course, shout out to our members as well. 00:53:52.897 --> 00:53:56.757 All right, we have a trifecta of picks to leave you with. And the first one, 00:53:56.757 --> 00:54:00.717 I feel bad. I should have mentioned this a while ago. 00:54:00.917 --> 00:54:03.137 I've been using this app a lot. 00:54:03.657 --> 00:54:06.837 And when you need it, you really need it. Do you know what I'm talking about? One of those? 00:54:07.117 --> 00:54:07.997 Well, I have an admission. 00:54:08.337 --> 00:54:08.777 What's that? 00:54:08.897 --> 00:54:11.857 I really needed it about two years ago and installed it on my system. 00:54:11.857 --> 00:54:14.197 And it's still installed. I forgot to tell you guys about it. 00:54:14.197 --> 00:54:14.337 What? 00:54:14.617 --> 00:54:15.317 Two years? 00:54:16.257 --> 00:54:17.797 What else is he hoarding? 00:54:17.877 --> 00:54:19.957 I'm like two months, and I'm feeling bad here. 00:54:20.237 --> 00:54:22.977 You didn't even have the van there, so where are you hiding all this stuff? 00:54:23.197 --> 00:54:31.097 Unbelievable. So Lossless Cut is a simple, super fast tool to trim and cut video without any loss. 00:54:31.677 --> 00:54:35.957 You want to cut a segment out. You want to cut audio out. You have GoPro footage, 00:54:36.077 --> 00:54:40.997 camera footage, a YouTube clip, a movie. whatever FFMPEG can read, 00:54:41.257 --> 00:54:45.277 it can cut without making any re-encode. 00:54:45.457 --> 00:54:49.917 So not only is it super fast, but you lose zero quality. So that's why it's called lossless cut. 00:54:50.357 --> 00:54:53.777 I also think it has the ability for times when you might have like keyframe 00:54:53.777 --> 00:54:56.637 issues where you might not be able to make a clean lossless cut, 00:54:56.797 --> 00:55:00.577 the ability to just re-encode to like interpolate between those parts. 00:55:00.877 --> 00:55:04.997 I'd say it's even a little more powerful than AvidMux, which is also really great in this category. 00:55:05.717 --> 00:55:09.397 For those of you that maybe you want to cut commercials out of TV shows that 00:55:09.397 --> 00:55:13.537 you've recorded with a DVR or you want to remove an audio or video track and 00:55:13.537 --> 00:55:15.977 discard the other either or it'll do that. 00:55:16.097 --> 00:55:18.757 Or you want to add music without having to re-encode the video or you want to 00:55:18.757 --> 00:55:20.957 add subtitles without having to re-encode the video. 00:55:21.697 --> 00:55:28.837 It will do that. It can read chapters. It can change format of an H.264 TV recording 00:55:28.837 --> 00:55:31.477 to TS or to MP4, whatever it is you might need. 00:55:32.117 --> 00:55:36.257 If you recorded something on the wrong orientation and you need to fix the rotation 00:55:36.257 --> 00:55:39.897 of the video, it can do that without re-encoding. I mean, the list goes on and on. 00:55:40.417 --> 00:55:43.637 It's a great application and GPL2 licensed. 00:55:44.726 --> 00:55:49.326 Now, our next pick, this is not a silver bullet for this problem, 00:55:49.346 --> 00:55:54.946 but you'll hear us talk about local LLMs and local AI from time to time. 00:55:55.306 --> 00:56:01.066 And there is an app on the web that lets you test your system to see what models you could likely run. 00:56:01.486 --> 00:56:05.026 And it's called CanIRun.ai. 00:56:05.926 --> 00:56:11.266 CanIRun.ai. And it's a quick WebGPL test to see which models would most likely 00:56:11.266 --> 00:56:12.706 operate on your hardware. 00:56:14.309 --> 00:56:17.609 And it ranks them for you and tells you what kind of tokens you could expect. 00:56:18.029 --> 00:56:22.849 And if you go to the tier list, it tells you, oh, this machine does better than 00:56:22.849 --> 00:56:23.949 my workstation upstairs. 00:56:24.269 --> 00:56:26.909 All of the models are in the F tier on this station. 00:56:27.849 --> 00:56:31.269 Yeah, so it's able to use WebGPU to detect your graphics card. 00:56:31.489 --> 00:56:33.889 And then from that, it just kind of knows what's going on. And then, 00:56:33.969 --> 00:56:37.589 of course, there's a dropdown here so you can specify if you want to override it, which is great. 00:56:37.769 --> 00:56:41.309 Yeah, but the idea is, now this isn't, like I said, this isn't accounting for 00:56:41.309 --> 00:56:49.149 everything because simply they can't do that with WebGPU and WebGL. 00:56:49.389 --> 00:56:49.789 WebGupu. 00:56:49.889 --> 00:56:52.709 Goopu. They can't really get all of the features and functions, 00:56:52.709 --> 00:56:56.029 but they can tell you this model that supports tools that you can run locally, 00:56:56.029 --> 00:56:58.709 you can expect about this token output at this speed. 00:56:59.149 --> 00:57:02.609 So you get a rough idea if it's even worth it or not. And what I like about 00:57:02.609 --> 00:57:04.909 the tier list is it really puts it in perspective. 00:57:05.289 --> 00:57:08.269 You get S, A, B, C, D, and F tiers. 00:57:09.089 --> 00:57:10.689 And for me, I'm all in the F tier. 00:57:11.289 --> 00:57:11.729 Yeah. 00:57:12.049 --> 00:57:13.009 Oh, I don't even really. 00:57:13.029 --> 00:57:17.309 Or you can see, you know, oh, I can only ever even get to see on models I don't even want to run. 00:57:17.629 --> 00:57:18.569 Yeah. Yeah. 00:57:19.189 --> 00:57:19.629 But. 00:57:19.989 --> 00:57:20.449 Good to know. 00:57:20.609 --> 00:57:21.629 Someday it'll change. 00:57:21.869 --> 00:57:25.609 Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Can I run dot a I. 00:57:25.929 --> 00:57:29.489 And on this same line, if you hate web apps and you want something with more 00:57:29.489 --> 00:57:31.629 detail and more insight into your system. 00:57:32.889 --> 00:57:37.369 LLM fit hundreds of models and providers. One command to find what runs on your 00:57:37.369 --> 00:57:43.449 hardware. a terminal TUI that finds the right-sized LM model for your system's RAM, CPU, GPU. 00:57:43.689 --> 00:57:47.229 It detects your hardware, scores each model across quality, speed, 00:57:47.389 --> 00:57:52.949 fit, and context dimensions, and tells you which ones actually run on your machine. 00:57:54.449 --> 00:57:56.069 And has a flake. 00:57:56.169 --> 00:57:57.449 Okay, okay. 00:57:57.869 --> 00:57:58.689 MIT licensed. 00:57:59.109 --> 00:58:02.649 So I can just run this, and then it'll go tell me info? 00:58:02.849 --> 00:58:05.249 Yeah, and it's a really nice TUI as well. 00:58:06.600 --> 00:58:10.200 And you can search, so it has a search field, so if you know which model you're 00:58:10.200 --> 00:58:12.320 looking for and you just want to go right to that, you can put it in there. 00:58:12.500 --> 00:58:14.540 Written in Rust, a little Python in there. 00:58:14.620 --> 00:58:20.300 The other thing that's really fun is it gives you just a handle on how many 00:58:20.300 --> 00:58:23.740 open source LLMs there are. 00:58:23.840 --> 00:58:27.240 I think in my head there's four. Oh, no. 00:58:27.900 --> 00:58:29.460 Have you ever even been to Hugging Face? 00:58:29.680 --> 00:58:34.560 Yeah, Hugging Face does put it in perspective. But seeing it broken down by 00:58:34.560 --> 00:58:39.420 what my machine could possibly run still, there's so many options for various different jobs. 00:58:40.220 --> 00:58:44.980 It's way broader than I really appreciated. So anyways, you know, 00:58:45.100 --> 00:58:46.480 web app, TUI, whichever you want. 00:58:46.640 --> 00:58:49.560 I think the TUI is a little better. LLM fit. Did you get a chance to try it? 00:58:49.980 --> 00:58:51.600 I think I'm building it right now. 00:58:51.740 --> 00:58:54.280 Oh, you have to build the rest stuff, I imagine. 00:58:54.860 --> 00:58:55.800 But I'm happy to. 00:58:56.000 --> 00:58:59.680 Yeah, yeah. So there you go. We'll have the links in the show notes for all 00:58:59.680 --> 00:59:02.300 of that. Big shout out to the lossless cut project. 00:59:02.920 --> 00:59:08.160 They have really been handy because we deal with large, large recordings and 00:59:08.160 --> 00:59:11.240 we don't want to have to re encode them. That would just make them look more like garbage. 00:59:11.420 --> 00:59:14.040 So the lossless cut project has been fantastic. 00:59:14.240 --> 00:59:18.740 Links at Linux unplugged.com slash six, five, eight. 00:59:19.780 --> 00:59:23.280 Whoa, that's really close to the big seven. Oh, that's really close. 00:59:23.460 --> 00:59:23.800 We're not ready. 00:59:24.180 --> 00:59:29.640 We are not ready. Also, just a reminder, we'd like you to boost in with the 00:59:29.640 --> 00:59:33.060 most underpowered hardware you're using for any particular job. 00:59:33.260 --> 00:59:36.800 Could be a web machine, or maybe it's something in the wall. 00:59:37.060 --> 00:59:40.980 Maybe it's something running actually critical workloads. Fake NAS. 00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:45.260 Oh, fake NAS. You know, that kind of thing. I just think that'd be fascinating 00:59:45.260 --> 00:59:48.200 to see what people are getting out of older hardware these days, 00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:51.120 especially with the prices of things. So do let us know. 00:59:54.926 --> 00:59:57.806 We are back into the groove, and I promise we'll try to be, you know, 00:59:57.866 --> 01:00:01.686 we will be on time next week. So make it a Linux Tuesday on a Sunday. 01:00:01.906 --> 01:00:06.186 Join us Sunday, 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 p.m. Eastern, over at jblive.tv. 01:00:06.826 --> 01:00:12.066 And Wes Payne, before they go, we should let them know there is extra data they could get. 01:00:12.366 --> 01:00:15.566 Oh, yeah. Some of it's even magical structured data. 01:00:15.626 --> 01:00:15.886 JSON. 01:00:16.266 --> 01:00:17.466 Yeah, computers love it. 01:00:17.566 --> 01:00:17.686 JSON. 01:00:17.986 --> 01:00:19.226 Uh-huh, chapter information. 01:00:19.466 --> 01:00:19.686 That's right. 01:00:19.806 --> 01:00:23.606 Yeah, the precise time codes for you to jump right to the content that you want. 01:00:24.186 --> 01:00:28.046 or if you want the entire show as text, we have that too. 01:00:28.266 --> 01:00:33.686 Yep. It's available in our feed. You can get it from there or just get a podcasting 2.0 app. 01:00:33.906 --> 01:00:38.066 Don't forget about our Matrix Room, a huge community going 24-7 and that mumble 01:00:38.066 --> 01:00:41.266 room live during the show before and after as well. 01:00:41.466 --> 01:00:44.646 Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of Your Unplugged Program 01:00:44.646 --> 01:00:46.846 and we'll see you right back here next Sunday. 01:01:28.319 --> 01:01:30.019 All right. Did you get it working, Wes? 01:01:30.199 --> 01:01:36.319 I did. Like a madman. I probably have NixLD enabled, which would do it for me, 01:01:36.359 --> 01:01:37.619 but I disabled it for my talk. 01:01:38.359 --> 01:01:41.119 And I could have made a custom plate for it, but I decided to just YOLO, 01:01:41.219 --> 01:01:44.679 and I told OpenCode to use PatchElf to fix it, because it's a Rust binary, 01:01:44.719 --> 01:01:48.079 so it really only needed the dynamic linker part updated to use the Nix one 01:01:48.079 --> 01:01:49.579 and not the standard place for it. 01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:54.539 And in about 10 seconds, it was done. It's working? It's working, yeah. 01:01:54.859 --> 01:01:55.899 It looks great, doesn't it? 01:01:55.939 --> 01:01:56.759 Yeah, it really does look great. 01:01:56.759 --> 01:02:00.839 It's a good UI. It's a good little TUI. And what does it say the best candidate 01:02:00.839 --> 01:02:03.279 for your ThinkPad T480 is there? 01:02:03.359 --> 01:02:07.819 That would be the Microsoft Fi tiny mixture of experts instruct. 01:02:08.659 --> 01:02:13.819 But I would get 140 tokens per second. 01:02:13.879 --> 01:02:15.279 All right. Oh, well, there you go. 01:02:15.419 --> 01:02:17.559 I do think actually they have, I don't know if it's all of them, 01:02:17.619 --> 01:02:21.859 but they have some Fi models that are like trained from, I think like fully 01:02:21.859 --> 01:02:26.039 licensed stuff or as well as like a bunch of kind of curated synthetic data. 01:02:26.139 --> 01:02:26.619 That's cool. 01:02:26.799 --> 01:02:28.579 Yeah. So there's some progress on that front, too. 01:02:28.759 --> 01:02:29.479 The ethical model.