WEBVTT 00:00:11.255 --> 00:00:15.855 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:16.055 --> 00:00:16.675 My name is Wes. 00:00:16.895 --> 00:00:17.675 And my name is Brent. 00:00:18.075 --> 00:00:19.415 Hello, gentlemen. Coming up 00:00:19.415 --> 00:00:23.755 on the show this week, open source had a typical week filled with drama. 00:00:24.295 --> 00:00:27.535 Flathub tightened the gates, Gnome Circle put AI Slop on notice, 00:00:27.555 --> 00:00:29.735 and R-Sync somehow became a battleground. 00:00:29.915 --> 00:00:32.915 We'll round it all up and then give you our take, and then we'll round it out 00:00:32.915 --> 00:00:36.515 with some very nice boosts, some very positive picks, and a lot more. 00:00:36.515 --> 00:00:40.815 So before we get any further, let's say time-appropriate greetings to our sole 00:00:40.815 --> 00:00:43.695 virtual lug contributor this week. Hello, Otterbrain. 00:00:45.335 --> 00:00:47.575 Hello. We also have some folks up there in the quiet listening. 00:00:48.235 --> 00:00:52.315 It's nice to have some folks in the live chat, too. Nice to have you on board for the show today. 00:00:52.895 --> 00:00:56.335 And thank you for being there. We have details about our Mumble Room up on our 00:00:56.335 --> 00:00:57.415 website if you want to join that. 00:00:57.795 --> 00:01:01.395 Also, good morning to our friends over at Defined Networking. 00:01:01.395 --> 00:01:05.755 Go meet Manage Nebula at Define.net slash unplugged and try it out for free 00:01:05.755 --> 00:01:07.895 on 100 hosts, no credit card required. 00:01:08.075 --> 00:01:12.075 It's decentralized. It's built on the Nebula platform that we love. 00:01:12.215 --> 00:01:14.595 There's no big tech login sitting in the middle. 00:01:14.795 --> 00:01:19.135 There's no black box relay deciding how your network works. 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I have it throughout my infrastructure now and I love it. 00:01:49.175 --> 00:01:52.215 Go try it, defined.net slash unplugged. 00:01:54.232 --> 00:01:57.692 It has been a spicy week in open-source AI land. 00:01:57.972 --> 00:02:01.952 Flathub tightened the rules, Gnome Circle put AI slop on notice, 00:02:02.752 --> 00:02:09.632 and rsync-saha became the battleground for whether AI-assisted code is genius or a garbage fire. 00:02:09.872 --> 00:02:13.912 And that's the weird part because while some projects are slamming the brakes, 00:02:14.092 --> 00:02:17.572 others are using these tools to find real bugs, land real fixes, 00:02:17.852 --> 00:02:20.852 and make maintainers just a little bit more dangerous. 00:02:21.712 --> 00:02:23.872 So let's start with rsync. 00:02:24.492 --> 00:02:27.232 Let's start with R-Sync indeed, because I think this was the one that put it 00:02:27.232 --> 00:02:29.752 over the top for us this week. We said we want to talk about this. 00:02:29.812 --> 00:02:31.132 I think we have something to add here. 00:02:31.932 --> 00:02:36.412 Everybody knows the R-Sync project. I think it's an example of one of these beloved tools. 00:02:37.192 --> 00:02:42.072 And this is an example of AI-assisted coding coming to the tool that you use. 00:02:42.952 --> 00:02:48.652 And the headline is that the original creator of R-Sync came back after 18 years 00:02:48.652 --> 00:02:52.032 earlier this year and started triaging. 00:02:52.032 --> 00:02:56.472 I think technically 2024, but they hadn't done much work until this year. 00:02:56.572 --> 00:02:57.732 They really started picking things up. 00:02:58.052 --> 00:03:00.932 Right. Like April and March is really when the patches started coming in. 00:03:02.752 --> 00:03:07.112 And they did so with Claude's assistant, identifying several security vulnerabilities, 00:03:07.112 --> 00:03:11.952 but also in the process of these major rewrites of the syscall layer, 00:03:12.612 --> 00:03:15.472 seemed to introduce several regressions. 00:03:15.632 --> 00:03:20.612 And there has been a massive backlash to regressions being introduced to rsync, 00:03:21.312 --> 00:03:23.112 and accusations of AI slop. 00:03:23.492 --> 00:03:28.312 The R-Sing founder has lost touch with reality. I mean, I think this thing really 00:03:28.312 --> 00:03:31.232 kicked off with a post on Mastodon that... 00:03:32.829 --> 00:03:37.609 Posted by they always Jeremiah Fletheaven. How do you suppose you say that last 00:03:37.609 --> 00:03:40.389 one? I'm sure a field haven. Thank you. I cannot read it from here. 00:03:40.889 --> 00:03:44.509 Jeremiah wrote. So my systems recently updated to our sink 3.4.3. 00:03:44.709 --> 00:03:47.669 And as soon as that happened, my backup system, which does incremental backups 00:03:47.669 --> 00:03:52.069 using multiple dash compare destination equals arguments, started to fail on 00:03:52.069 --> 00:03:56.669 anything but a full backup reverting to our sink 3.4.1. 00:03:56.829 --> 00:04:00.569 And now it works. So I go look at the source in GitHub to see what might have 00:04:00.569 --> 00:04:03.449 changed, because there doesn't seem to be anything relevant in the changelog. 00:04:03.689 --> 00:04:09.949 Since 3.4.1, 36 commits by Tridge and Claude. Oh, for F's sake. 00:04:10.229 --> 00:04:12.009 And that was on May 28th. 00:04:12.629 --> 00:04:17.029 And so since then, a firestorm of criticism have kicked off. 00:04:17.309 --> 00:04:21.589 And poll requests against the projects, people saying they're going to fork rsync. 00:04:21.869 --> 00:04:25.989 Yeah, we have seen at least a few sort of forks or alternatives pop up already. 00:04:25.989 --> 00:04:30.709 So let's break down what's really going on here, because I think the headline 00:04:30.709 --> 00:04:35.349 noise is distracting from probably the pattern that is actually just there in the commits. 00:04:35.869 --> 00:04:40.869 And Wes did a deep dive. We put some stuff together, and I think the story is 00:04:40.869 --> 00:04:43.629 a lot more understandable than it's currently being interpreted online. 00:04:43.809 --> 00:04:45.689 And I think this is maybe where we can add some value. 00:04:45.909 --> 00:04:50.229 So Tridge is the original creator of R-Sync, took about an 18-year hiatus, 00:04:51.109 --> 00:04:55.409 seems to have recently discovered AI-assisted tools, and begun going through 00:04:55.409 --> 00:04:58.289 the code base, triaging bugs and 00:04:58.289 --> 00:05:00.929 security issues that may have potentially been there for quite a while. 00:05:01.969 --> 00:05:08.749 And it looks like when you go through them, there was maybe a total of 77 issues that were worked on. 00:05:09.769 --> 00:05:17.029 And of those 77 issues, we've seen some PRs come in, maybe a total of nine regressions out of the 77. 00:05:17.389 --> 00:05:20.029 Yeah, something like that. I mean, these are all like a static snapshot of when 00:05:20.029 --> 00:05:21.309 I was kind of looking at the data. 00:05:21.449 --> 00:05:24.489 Of course. That gives you an idea of the volume, right? We're looking at maybe 00:05:24.489 --> 00:05:27.669 77 PRs that were worked on and maybe nine regression issues. 00:05:28.840 --> 00:05:31.600 Yeah, and it's, so it's like, you know, he started maintaining things. 00:05:31.900 --> 00:05:33.240 Interestingly, Trich is also, 00:05:33.700 --> 00:05:37.860 I guess, was involved in reverse engineering BitKeeper back in the day. 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:45.000 That ended up being why Linux needed to start using Git, if we remember that story from long ago. 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:47.740 So a long history in open source and being involved with things. 00:05:48.320 --> 00:05:52.560 And so it takes over in 2024, doesn't really touch things much, 00:05:52.780 --> 00:05:56.740 does do some small things here and there, starts picking up in 2025, 2026. 00:05:57.700 --> 00:06:01.020 but is just doing work by hand. And actually, a lot of the stuff, 00:06:01.400 --> 00:06:05.260 like secure relative open, which is involved, which is like a real implementation 00:06:05.260 --> 00:06:10.060 of doing open in a better way inside the code base, which is involved with some of the breakage. 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:15.640 Some of this, a lot of the actual like fixes and redesigns happen before any 00:06:15.640 --> 00:06:16.980 of the clod commits show up. 00:06:17.340 --> 00:06:20.520 Sort of like over a 22-month period kind of slow pecking at it. 00:06:20.540 --> 00:06:23.520 I mean, that doesn't surprise me. He's clearly a very talented developer and 00:06:23.520 --> 00:06:25.080 has been for many, many, many years. 00:06:25.400 --> 00:06:26.320 And then... 00:06:27.182 --> 00:06:33.302 More recently, we see this big uptake in velocity in the codebase and a lot 00:06:33.302 --> 00:06:34.982 of commits co-authored by Claude. 00:06:35.182 --> 00:06:38.402 And then when you look at it, a lot of it is kind of applying the patterns that 00:06:38.402 --> 00:06:42.022 he had seemingly found by himself in the era before, or at least before we start 00:06:42.022 --> 00:06:43.202 seeing the co-authored commits, 00:06:43.862 --> 00:06:48.002 and then using Claude to go apply that across the codebase, as well as do a 00:06:48.002 --> 00:06:52.042 bunch of sort of like other tests and docs and just sort of like that kind of fix. 00:06:52.162 --> 00:06:55.762 So if you look at the commits so far, it's not like Claude is doing a big structural 00:06:55.762 --> 00:06:56.762 rewrite of the codebase. 00:06:56.762 --> 00:06:57.202 From scratch. 00:06:57.522 --> 00:07:01.722 It's sort of applying some patterns, doing security fixes, responding to CVEs. 00:07:01.822 --> 00:07:05.822 Because there's also like six CVEs that have kind of come up in our sync through 00:07:05.822 --> 00:07:08.442 this time. And that's been some of the work that's been happening as well. 00:07:08.802 --> 00:07:12.022 Yeah, I have to imagine they're probably getting more of those. Right. 00:07:12.282 --> 00:07:16.202 And that's where, like, there's a few, like, one story could be, 00:07:16.322 --> 00:07:22.042 oh, gosh, you know, maintainer starts using AI. The project's going to slop. 00:07:22.382 --> 00:07:25.862 You know, we can't, what's happening? Just that whole thing. 00:07:25.862 --> 00:07:28.762 it can also be partly that like here's a person 00:07:28.762 --> 00:07:31.462 who hasn't maintained this code base for most of its 00:07:31.462 --> 00:07:34.822 existence he's created it and used it maintained 00:07:34.822 --> 00:07:38.002 it for the first part and then handed it off to the the main 00:07:38.002 --> 00:07:40.842 maintainer for most of that time uh who's now 00:07:40.842 --> 00:07:44.762 getting more involved and wanting to do more releases and sort of the both the 00:07:44.762 --> 00:07:48.782 development speed and the release cadence here is picking up and then i think 00:07:48.782 --> 00:07:52.582 there's probably some very reasonable questions you can ask about like is that 00:07:52.582 --> 00:07:55.722 being communicated what are the expectations of the users right there's like 00:07:55.722 --> 00:08:00.342 a lot of sort of regular open source project maintainership and maintenance questions that apply. 00:08:00.582 --> 00:08:04.822 And then on the other side of all that, there's also the question from the CVEs. 00:08:04.922 --> 00:08:08.522 One of the forks is sort of a minimal implementation of R-Sync's protocol in Go. 00:08:09.282 --> 00:08:13.822 And the point from that author is some of this is even just like, 00:08:14.122 --> 00:08:17.642 it brings up this issue of like, should we even be depending on R-Sync and C 00:08:17.642 --> 00:08:21.302 in this era when we know that like these six CVEs that kind of brought up a 00:08:21.302 --> 00:08:25.102 lot of these, some of these issues wouldn't even have occurred in a language like Go or Rust. 00:08:26.931 --> 00:08:27.291 Okay. 00:08:27.491 --> 00:08:31.831 So there's a lot of things you could miss if you just focus on the clod co-committed part. 00:08:32.691 --> 00:08:36.391 Okay. So he finds the bugs themselves with a code audit. Then he designs a fix 00:08:36.391 --> 00:08:38.791 that he implements using clod code. 00:08:39.071 --> 00:08:45.531 And he tags everything and transparently discloses every commit that was used with clod code. 00:08:45.671 --> 00:08:48.351 As far as we know. I mean, you know, we can't really tell. 00:08:48.591 --> 00:08:48.771 I suppose, yeah. 00:08:48.771 --> 00:08:53.471 But it seems like the intention is to be transparent. At least he has opted into using that. 00:08:54.991 --> 00:08:59.851 And so we did get, I mean, there were security fixes that happened here, 00:08:59.951 --> 00:09:01.971 but we also got regressions introduced at the same time. 00:09:02.191 --> 00:09:04.171 Yeah. And that's pretty normal. 00:09:04.411 --> 00:09:06.851 That's a pretty standard thing to happen in software development. 00:09:07.071 --> 00:09:10.851 And it's totally fair to be like, this regression caused me issues and pain 00:09:10.851 --> 00:09:15.531 and it's upset and you can have broken trust around, I expected you to have 00:09:15.531 --> 00:09:17.411 better QA before the ship. Those are all fine. 00:09:17.491 --> 00:09:20.331 Well, some of these things are like, it broke on Darwin, right? 00:09:20.451 --> 00:09:22.611 A specific thing broke on Mac OS. 00:09:22.951 --> 00:09:26.271 There is also, it's worth trying to look into, like, what is the actual breakage 00:09:26.271 --> 00:09:29.671 and how widespread and is it an edge case or is it a major thing that you should have had better? 00:09:29.671 --> 00:09:32.651 Well, and then there's the fact that a lot of distros gate the releases, 00:09:32.651 --> 00:09:37.291 so it's not like everybody is just running off of upstream R-sync point releases either. 00:09:37.551 --> 00:09:40.511 So the actual distribution of this, you've got to be pretty close to the faucet 00:09:40.511 --> 00:09:41.611 for this to even impact you. 00:09:42.051 --> 00:09:46.351 Right. And you also then need to not have a way that you can roll back easily. 00:09:46.551 --> 00:09:49.651 Right. So, I mean, these are some, I think, of the ground rules to understand 00:09:49.651 --> 00:09:52.571 with this issue. Now, did the regressions actually get introduced? 00:09:52.831 --> 00:09:55.691 Yes, but I would argue that when you're looking at the type of work that was 00:09:55.691 --> 00:10:02.071 being done, you're essentially raising the walls on what were lower standards 00:10:02.071 --> 00:10:05.131 18 years ago for syscall securities and things like that. 00:10:05.291 --> 00:10:09.911 You're improving the internal security of rsync, and that's always going to 00:10:09.911 --> 00:10:13.931 cause breakage, even if you're hand-coding that, especially for that type of 00:10:13.931 --> 00:10:16.131 stuff and an 18-year-old project like that. 00:10:17.173 --> 00:10:19.993 So I think it's really unfortunate that they've really turned on Tridge because 00:10:19.993 --> 00:10:23.213 I think it's really great to see that he's back and that he's contributing again. 00:10:23.453 --> 00:10:26.353 It does seem to be addressing the regressions as well. I do think there's maybe 00:10:26.353 --> 00:10:33.073 a question there of I don't know if I've seen any sort of particular response to all of this. 00:10:33.393 --> 00:10:35.773 And we can ask if that's owed or not. That's a separate question. 00:10:36.133 --> 00:10:41.753 But I think there are maybe questions of what could you do differently if you 00:10:41.753 --> 00:10:44.173 are going to be doing more maintenance, more active changes, 00:10:44.393 --> 00:10:45.933 changing how the project is maintained. 00:10:46.073 --> 00:10:49.093 Let's talk about that for a second. Because I think one of the things I noticed 00:10:49.093 --> 00:10:52.713 is just a lot of dropping of code, just a lot of code, a lot of changes all 00:10:52.713 --> 00:10:54.633 at once across a broad variety of things. 00:10:55.133 --> 00:10:58.573 And for a project that has been quite stable, it's kind of faded into background 00:10:58.573 --> 00:11:02.533 infrastructure. You don't really, besides maybe you filed an issue for some 00:11:02.533 --> 00:11:05.613 weird little case for your particular system or an improvement or a dock update. 00:11:05.833 --> 00:11:08.333 You don't really think of R-Sync as something that's constantly changing or 00:11:08.333 --> 00:11:09.253 you're pulling down lots of new. 00:11:09.593 --> 00:11:12.793 Well, for example, Debian stable ships R-Sync from 2022. 00:11:15.287 --> 00:11:19.107 So a lot of people that are using Debian-based distributions are on a massively 00:11:19.107 --> 00:11:23.187 older version. So they're never going to see this. So that is true. 00:11:25.367 --> 00:11:29.667 That's just the reality of it. I think, and the irony of somebody forks it, 00:11:29.707 --> 00:11:30.567 they're going to vibe code it, too. 00:11:31.067 --> 00:11:34.887 That's the other question is, so like one of the forks, I think I have a link 00:11:34.887 --> 00:11:39.367 in here, is basically just a fork of the project before the first sort of obviously 00:11:39.367 --> 00:11:41.627 co-authored with Claude commit. 00:11:41.627 --> 00:11:41.947 Yeah. 00:11:43.387 --> 00:11:46.567 And that's fine, but we kind of functionally already have that in anywhere that 00:11:46.567 --> 00:11:48.907 has a fork of the repo already, right? 00:11:49.307 --> 00:11:52.847 You're just rolling back the head pointer effectively. And that's fine, whatever. 00:11:53.047 --> 00:11:56.227 You get that with stable distributions kind of already. And there are some discussions 00:11:56.227 --> 00:11:59.087 in like the WMA list of, aren't they going to need to do anything about this? 00:11:59.167 --> 00:12:00.707 And I guess we'll see where that goes. 00:12:01.167 --> 00:12:05.487 When we get to the comments of the Zig creator about Zig's policy on AI, 00:12:05.947 --> 00:12:08.207 I think it's going to underscore a point that I want to make. 00:12:08.307 --> 00:12:11.227 But the reality I think we're about to face, 00:12:11.227 --> 00:12:13.047 And I don't know if we're there yet because I'm no developer, 00:12:13.047 --> 00:12:17.227 but it feels like we're getting pretty damn close is we're about to cross a 00:12:17.227 --> 00:12:22.007 threshold or we have already crossed a threshold where the average one shot 00:12:22.007 --> 00:12:25.867 LLM basic project code is going to be better than a beginner developer. 00:12:27.029 --> 00:12:29.869 And it's going to be a better product than an amateur. And I don't know if it's 00:12:29.869 --> 00:12:33.129 there yet, but it will be because these things just keep improving. 00:12:33.489 --> 00:12:37.049 And they're improving at a pace that is very impressive because they can just keep training. 00:12:37.249 --> 00:12:43.189 And some of these shops like Anthropic and OpenAI are very, very intent on making 00:12:43.189 --> 00:12:44.729 it great at software development. 00:12:45.189 --> 00:12:48.509 And they're very focused as part of their business revenue strategy on their 00:12:48.509 --> 00:12:51.609 Cloud Code and Codex projects, respectively. 00:12:52.069 --> 00:12:56.289 And I think we are entering this era of either it's about to be there or it 00:12:56.289 --> 00:12:58.929 is there where it's going to generate better code than a lot of amateurs. 00:12:59.609 --> 00:13:04.129 And when we get there, we're just going to discover all of these issues that 00:13:04.129 --> 00:13:08.989 we have never discovered before. And it's going to happen every single week for multiple projects. 00:13:09.389 --> 00:13:14.109 And people cannot get the pitchforks out and go after developer for using AI to try to fix this. 00:13:14.469 --> 00:13:16.369 Because next year, these things are going to be even better. 00:13:16.489 --> 00:13:18.449 And the year after that, they're going to be even better programmers. 00:13:18.449 --> 00:13:24.109 and it does seem conceivable at some point they will exceed most proficient 00:13:24.109 --> 00:13:26.449 developers to some capacity. 00:13:26.769 --> 00:13:30.589 I don't know when and how, but it seems possible. And when it does, 00:13:30.809 --> 00:13:35.309 it's likely going to find even more issues in our code. And this problem only accelerates. 00:13:35.469 --> 00:13:40.189 I think the other part, the implication of that is, okay, maybe at the start, 00:13:40.409 --> 00:13:44.929 the co-authored was maybe a hint at, oh, the quality might not be great unless 00:13:44.929 --> 00:13:46.769 there was real editing and review here. 00:13:46.769 --> 00:13:51.169 but that becomes much less of an actual reliable signal it was never a great 00:13:51.169 --> 00:13:55.069 signal if I'm honest but it becomes even less of a useful signal down the line 00:13:55.069 --> 00:13:58.509 what I was going to say before is just the real test of a fork is not can you 00:13:58.509 --> 00:14:02.209 freeze the code base it's can you actually continue to maintain it and offer 00:14:02.209 --> 00:14:04.449 real things and have your own stability and yeah, 00:14:05.620 --> 00:14:08.760 So that's where like a frozen fork of our sink is not that interesting to me 00:14:08.760 --> 00:14:11.740 necessarily. If it can actually be maintained, okay, maybe there's something there. 00:14:11.980 --> 00:14:16.200 A go one or a version in non-C language, that starts a more legitimate conversation 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:17.540 for totally structural reasons. 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:20.460 I mean, are we just not talking about the fact that there are six CVEs here 00:14:20.460 --> 00:14:24.020 that are being addressed? Like those are real bugs. And if you just fork off 00:14:24.020 --> 00:14:25.260 of that, you're going to have these six CVEs. 00:14:25.260 --> 00:14:29.440 You have to go keep up with all the, yeah. And there's going to be more CVEs found to your point. 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:32.280 Like we have to fix this stuff. And it's, yeah, it's going to get worse. 00:14:32.280 --> 00:14:35.600 And the pitchforks really should just be put down and people should just get 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.560 to work and have some empathy for these developers who are going to have to 00:14:38.560 --> 00:14:39.340 go through this transition. 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:44.700 Now, Flathub is taking a no LLM policy, and it's somewhere more in a middle ground here. 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:49.860 They say we have updated Flathub's LLM policy to explicitly disallow AI usage 00:14:49.860 --> 00:14:53.660 for both the submission process and applications being submitted. 00:14:53.660 --> 00:14:57.500 The number of, they'll go on to say later, the number of unpleasant interactions 00:14:57.500 --> 00:15:01.700 that I have had with entitled submitters acting as if they were bestowing their 00:15:01.700 --> 00:15:06.000 brilliant software upon us idiots who are rejecting it went through the roof 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:07.940 in the last month. I'm tired. 00:15:08.460 --> 00:15:12.680 As always, we will not be applying this retroactively. So any vibe coded apps 00:15:12.680 --> 00:15:14.600 which were already published will remain available. 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:18.640 So Flathub is introducing a no LLM policy here. 00:15:19.640 --> 00:15:23.020 And when you go to the GitHub, you can kind of see the language of the policy 00:15:23.020 --> 00:15:26.980 and the changes they've made. And there's a question and an answer, sort of as a follow-up. 00:15:27.020 --> 00:15:31.100 The question goes, so does this mean any application developed with AI tools, 00:15:31.220 --> 00:15:34.160 even things like Editor Autocomplete, are not allowed to be submitted? 00:15:34.520 --> 00:15:38.680 And the individual from Latub responds, unlikely to be considered a blocker 00:15:38.680 --> 00:15:41.700 unless you literally tabbed your entire way through Autocomplete. 00:15:43.520 --> 00:15:47.920 So we have a new Flathub policy here that's not super rigid, 00:15:47.920 --> 00:15:51.580 but it is pretty intense. No LLM-generated applications. 00:15:51.860 --> 00:15:56.360 I think no LLM-generated descriptions is fair enough for a publishing platform like Flathub. 00:15:56.460 --> 00:15:57.020 Sure, reasonable, yeah. 00:15:57.220 --> 00:15:59.000 So I think that I can agree with them on. 00:15:59.540 --> 00:16:04.240 I do think all of these face the same essential problem of if it's a good description, 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:09.400 is it disqualified because it has an MDash and you associate that with LLMs, 00:16:09.400 --> 00:16:11.300 even if it's correct grammar and reads well? 00:16:11.460 --> 00:16:13.240 I know, I miss losing the MDash. 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:17.100 Does it matter if it was generated and then I edited it and I totally approved 00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:19.460 the entire thing? I said, yes, this sounds like what I would have written, 00:16:19.640 --> 00:16:20.980 except with slightly better grammar. 00:16:21.180 --> 00:16:21.520 Mm hmm. 00:16:22.531 --> 00:16:24.611 None of the hard questions are addressed by this whatsoever, 00:16:24.611 --> 00:16:28.251 in my view, which seems like a worse wording of what they had before. 00:16:28.511 --> 00:16:31.911 And probably in practice, a lot of it will be fine, right? I think it's stern 00:16:31.911 --> 00:16:35.891 language that will probably be somewhat lightly enforced and is probably meant 00:16:35.891 --> 00:16:37.951 to attack the worst cases of, like, 00:16:38.131 --> 00:16:42.211 just slop that is trying to throw it over the wall and is not being cared for 00:16:42.211 --> 00:16:44.311 or maintained or really represented by a human or, you know, 00:16:44.311 --> 00:16:48.191 anything like any of those other things that you might want in terms of a maintainer 00:16:48.191 --> 00:16:49.511 relationship with a platform. 00:16:49.711 --> 00:16:50.091 Yeah. 00:16:50.311 --> 00:16:50.991 And that I understand. 00:16:50.991 --> 00:16:54.311 Yeah, when you worst case it, like, I totally agree. Like, something that's 00:16:54.311 --> 00:16:57.491 just, like, generating slop up onto somebody's GitHub, they're not even reviewing 00:16:57.491 --> 00:17:01.471 it, and then they're just auto-submitting that to Flathub and generate, like, I can get that. 00:17:01.751 --> 00:17:04.231 And I could see they could just get inundated with that, too, 00:17:04.451 --> 00:17:07.151 right? Especially because you could just almost automate the entire process. 00:17:07.331 --> 00:17:09.671 But at least when I first tried it, too, it seems like it sort of then also 00:17:09.671 --> 00:17:15.211 privileges proprietary software, because you don't know. You're not even trying to audit that. 00:17:16.111 --> 00:17:19.791 That's a really good point. That's a really good point. How does this strike 00:17:19.791 --> 00:17:20.871 you, this decision, Brent? 00:17:21.551 --> 00:17:24.551 It's a rough one i can try to see it from a couple different 00:17:24.551 --> 00:17:27.571 perspectives right like some people might now feel quite 00:17:27.571 --> 00:17:30.591 empowered to be able to create software 00:17:30.591 --> 00:17:33.311 they could never create before and let's say you create some niche piece of 00:17:33.311 --> 00:17:36.251 software you're like wow i've always wanted this now i can actually make it 00:17:36.251 --> 00:17:39.351 and i know there's a tiny niche of other people who would love 00:17:39.351 --> 00:17:42.251 to use this as well how do i distribute it flat hub 00:17:42.251 --> 00:17:44.891 sounds amazing uh but i could see it 00:17:44.891 --> 00:17:47.751 from the developers perspectives and the maintainers as well as like 00:17:47.751 --> 00:17:50.811 well how many of these one-off pieces 00:17:50.811 --> 00:17:55.271 of software do we accept and who you know the whole chain of trust goes into 00:17:55.271 --> 00:18:01.211 question as well and these are i don't know it's gonna it's gonna be a long 00:18:01.211 --> 00:18:05.471 time of asking these questions and projects making these kind of decisions just 00:18:05.471 --> 00:18:09.711 to try to tread some water i i imagine i. 00:18:09.711 --> 00:18:15.371 I wonder too where if the line gets fuzzy if say you submit like we're gonna 00:18:15.371 --> 00:18:18.891 have a pick today that that just rides entirely on top of. 00:18:18.891 --> 00:18:19.291 Pipewire. 00:18:19.491 --> 00:18:22.751 I mean, it's a front end of Pipewire. The developer's done some work, 00:18:22.791 --> 00:18:26.211 but the lift is being done by Pipewire. And... 00:18:27.309 --> 00:18:32.109 It could be that the features it's using in Pipewire have been AI-assisted in development. 00:18:32.629 --> 00:18:40.229 And so what if you submit an app to Flathub that is not itself AI-generated, 00:18:40.229 --> 00:18:46.009 but depends entirely on AI-generated code elsewhere in the ecosystem and elsewhere in the stack? 00:18:46.589 --> 00:18:49.009 I guess that's allowed? 00:18:51.049 --> 00:18:52.989 These are hard questions. I don't know. 00:18:52.989 --> 00:18:58.609 It's, yeah. And here's where I get a little concerned, just it is what it is, 00:18:58.729 --> 00:19:01.249 but the Linux desktop isn't known 00:19:01.249 --> 00:19:06.369 for its incredibly rich, bespoke desktop application ecosystem, right? 00:19:06.849 --> 00:19:10.149 And we've been getting there, but this is going to tap the brakes on it. 00:19:10.529 --> 00:19:15.589 And it is what it is. I'm not making a moral decision here, but the reality will be... 00:19:16.565 --> 00:19:22.285 It won't be but a year before Microsoft and Apple and Google and Amazon and 00:19:22.285 --> 00:19:27.245 Samsung and all the others in their various app store platforms are going to 00:19:27.245 --> 00:19:32.285 spotlight applications that have been vibe coded using their tooling. 00:19:32.505 --> 00:19:39.725 Right. If somebody shows up at WWDC using a AI assisted generated app from Xcode 00:19:39.725 --> 00:19:42.765 and it's a good app, Apple is going to spotlight that. Right. 00:19:42.825 --> 00:19:46.485 If somebody uses Copilot to create something and it goes into the Microsoft 00:19:46.485 --> 00:19:50.685 store and it sells, they're going to put it up on a banner and et cetera. 00:19:50.885 --> 00:19:54.965 All these platforms will do that that offer these tools and they're going to 00:19:54.965 --> 00:19:59.785 embrace it as an avenue for people to bring software over and they're going 00:19:59.785 --> 00:20:02.105 to spotlight it while we shun it. 00:20:02.105 --> 00:20:06.205 And then the irony is, is we're the ones that are application ecosystem poor. 00:20:07.065 --> 00:20:11.265 And probably one of the best shots we have, and we've already seen it, 00:20:11.545 --> 00:20:16.745 they've got Creative Cloud working on Linux, is using AI-assisted tooling to 00:20:16.745 --> 00:20:20.385 port over and get things working on Linux that never ran before. 00:20:20.625 --> 00:20:25.425 I mean, that's how we got Photoshop recently, the current version of Photoshop working. 00:20:25.645 --> 00:20:28.585 There's also, I think, like Brent was totally on point, like exactly kind of 00:20:28.585 --> 00:20:33.365 the apps Brent was describing there. are the apps we tend to find and highlight on the show. 00:20:33.545 --> 00:20:36.825 And there's always great little tiny things. That's like kind of what I go to. 00:20:37.065 --> 00:20:39.805 I mean, yes, FlatHub can get you Spotify, you know, or whatever those two. 00:20:39.965 --> 00:20:44.065 But that's what I like about it. That's why we kind of use it to try to find interesting new apps. 00:20:44.205 --> 00:20:49.225 And a lot of those apps are more about executing the particular idea than they 00:20:49.225 --> 00:20:50.845 are about beautiful GTK code. 00:20:50.965 --> 00:20:55.605 Well, and that's just it. Because we don't shame an amateur developer with one 00:20:55.605 --> 00:20:59.085 of their first projects is open source code and they put it out there and it's 00:20:59.085 --> 00:21:00.925 garbage filled with security issues. 00:21:01.225 --> 00:21:04.865 You know, as a community, we'll mentor them. We'll work with them if it's a 00:21:04.865 --> 00:21:07.005 project that's useful and people will contribute patches. 00:21:08.917 --> 00:21:12.877 But we're not willing to do it in this case, even if it's something that's useful. 00:21:13.197 --> 00:21:16.157 Like, well, OK, if it's slop, make it better. 00:21:16.997 --> 00:21:22.157 Shut up and make it better. Like, that's the solution here, because we have 00:21:22.157 --> 00:21:23.997 more tools than we've ever had before. 00:21:24.337 --> 00:21:27.897 That, to me, seems to be the solution. But don't do it in Zig. 00:21:29.317 --> 00:21:38.577 Zig has a no AI policy. And the Zig creator was on the JetBrains podcast recently. 00:21:38.917 --> 00:21:40.757 And I think his name is Andrew, right? The creator of Zig? 00:21:40.857 --> 00:21:41.377 I believe so. 00:21:41.997 --> 00:21:46.237 And he is, Zig's kind of known. Yeah, Andrew Kelly. Zig's kind of known for 00:21:46.237 --> 00:21:49.197 having a no LLM, no AI policy. 00:21:49.797 --> 00:21:52.957 And so the interviewer from JetBrains asked him, you know, why is. 00:21:53.157 --> 00:21:57.277 And just to be clear, that's for the Zig, like maintaining the Zig language 00:21:57.277 --> 00:22:00.217 itself. Not using it to make projects, whatever. That's all fine. 00:22:00.297 --> 00:22:02.917 Yeah, they have no control over that. But if you want to contribute to the Zig 00:22:02.917 --> 00:22:07.817 code base for Zig itself, they have a hard no LLM, no AI policy. 00:22:07.817 --> 00:22:11.377 and they will reject it out of hand, even if it's like a critical security fix. 00:22:11.557 --> 00:22:16.717 If they smell a whiff of LLM, they'll reject it out of hand. 00:22:16.837 --> 00:22:21.537 And so Andrew was on the JetBrains podcast and he was asked why Zig is denying 00:22:21.537 --> 00:22:23.797 all LLM-generated code. So I thought we'd take a listen. 00:22:24.057 --> 00:22:29.637 The first reason is just that those kinds of contributions are invariably garbage. 00:22:30.557 --> 00:22:35.837 People are sending us contributions that have no value whatsoever. 00:22:35.837 --> 00:22:41.517 However, not only that, they have negative value because they take review time 00:22:41.517 --> 00:22:43.857 away from the team, which is very limited. 00:22:44.177 --> 00:22:51.077 We have over 200 pull requests sitting open right now, and those are all waiting for review. 00:22:51.277 --> 00:22:54.537 And we try to be on top of it as much as possible. 00:22:55.837 --> 00:22:58.997 When you have a small number of people in the dev team and you have a large 00:22:58.997 --> 00:23:04.237 number of contributors, this is always the problem is this bottleneck of review time. 00:23:04.417 --> 00:23:09.177 So, when we get these slop contributions, they take our review time and then 00:23:09.177 --> 00:23:13.237 after a few reviews, we realize they have no clue what they're doing. 00:23:13.597 --> 00:23:18.737 They're just pasting what we say back to the chat and then laundering the chat 00:23:18.737 --> 00:23:21.337 back to pretend that they're not using chat but we can still tell. 00:23:22.057 --> 00:23:25.537 And then at some point, we realize this is never going to be a good quality 00:23:25.537 --> 00:23:27.017 because they have no idea what they're doing. 00:23:27.257 --> 00:23:30.877 And so now we wasted everybody's time. All those other people who are waiting 00:23:30.877 --> 00:23:35.377 patiently, they didn't get a review and the code never gets merged. It's worthless. 00:23:35.657 --> 00:23:39.557 We like to call it contributor poker. So, 00:23:40.784 --> 00:23:46.464 The main point of doing code reviews and having contributions, 00:23:46.464 --> 00:23:50.404 instead of just doing all the work ourselves, is mentorship. 00:23:50.804 --> 00:23:57.284 The whole point is that a contributor can become a core team member eventually, 00:23:57.284 --> 00:23:59.744 or they can become a more valuable contributor. 00:24:00.044 --> 00:24:04.124 Okay, I'm pausing here because I want you to remember that he says one of the 00:24:04.124 --> 00:24:08.524 core focuses of Zig is to be a platform people can learn to develop on. 00:24:08.524 --> 00:24:14.244 It can be a starting language they can learn to develop and become a ZIG contributor over time. 00:24:14.884 --> 00:24:19.164 A core team member, eventually, or they can become a more valuable contributor. 00:24:20.064 --> 00:24:25.264 And this will help the project because we'll have more people who can contribute to ZIG skillfully. 00:24:25.644 --> 00:24:28.964 And it will help their resume because they can be a better systems programmer 00:24:28.964 --> 00:24:35.444 and they can take those skills elsewhere. The idea of contributor poker is that we have limited time. 00:24:35.664 --> 00:24:40.804 So, we want to notice, okay, who can we invest our time in to help them become 00:24:40.804 --> 00:24:43.304 better programmers, better contributors for the project? 00:24:43.684 --> 00:24:50.304 And who is maybe a drive-by contributor? They're going to send something, 00:24:50.384 --> 00:24:51.124 they're going to go away. 00:24:51.484 --> 00:24:53.824 Less valuable to invest in them. 00:24:54.284 --> 00:24:57.124 And so, people who are using AI, they're always in the second category. 00:24:57.484 --> 00:25:00.184 It's not worth it to invest in them. They're not learning anything. 00:25:00.464 --> 00:25:03.104 They're going to join the core team later. Not a chance. 00:25:03.404 --> 00:25:07.664 For us, this policy just makes sense because. 00:25:08.781 --> 00:25:12.461 The Zig project, it's also an education project. That's part of our mission 00:25:12.461 --> 00:25:16.081 statement, is we're providing guidance and education to students. 00:25:16.621 --> 00:25:19.621 And so we're all trying to learn, we're all trying to get better at programming. 00:25:20.141 --> 00:25:25.581 And so people who are sending AI pull requests, these people are not helping this goal. 00:25:26.241 --> 00:25:29.761 And in fact, I think that they're detracting from this goal. 00:25:30.161 --> 00:25:36.721 So for our project, I think that the strict no AI policy, it's an appropriate policy. 00:25:36.941 --> 00:25:41.161 You know, If I tried to say, oh, only good AI PRs can come in, 00:25:41.241 --> 00:25:45.161 now I have to be the judge of that, whereas if it's none whatsoever, 00:25:45.181 --> 00:25:47.601 then it's a very easy policy to enforce. 00:25:49.685 --> 00:25:51.245 That does not add up, I don't think. 00:25:51.785 --> 00:25:52.345 I agree. 00:25:52.505 --> 00:25:55.945 You're already in the judge of what's AI or not. You're just changing from what's 00:25:55.945 --> 00:25:59.525 good, which is already the metric you wanted to be using, to now you're an expert 00:25:59.525 --> 00:26:00.825 on hunting for AI smells. 00:26:01.285 --> 00:26:04.105 And then you just turn the folks, like now it's just a test of, 00:26:04.245 --> 00:26:07.945 can I write good zig or not, and then just not tell you I used AI to help me 00:26:07.945 --> 00:26:09.445 with looking up the stuff in the docs. 00:26:09.445 --> 00:26:12.145 Right, you turn it into a game of not getting detected. 00:26:12.245 --> 00:26:14.265 Yes. And you punish the honest people. 00:26:16.245 --> 00:26:19.065 Well, and what he said right there, too, was that they want to be appealing 00:26:19.065 --> 00:26:20.325 to people that are learning to code. 00:26:20.465 --> 00:26:22.885 Well, people that are learning to code, they're going to be the most inclined 00:26:22.885 --> 00:26:24.245 to use some of this assisted tooling. 00:26:24.405 --> 00:26:24.665 100%. 00:26:25.525 --> 00:26:29.245 So there's a bit of a dichotomy there. So the other thing that's a bit of a 00:26:29.245 --> 00:26:33.445 dichotomy for them, a chicken and the eggs, or maybe a catch-22 would be the better analogy. 00:26:34.165 --> 00:26:35.665 Zig is MIT licensed. 00:26:36.645 --> 00:26:41.645 So that means it's totally legitimate for the big tech industry to use Zig to train AI. 00:26:42.025 --> 00:26:45.965 And so Andrew was asked how he feels about big tech being able to train on Zig 00:26:45.965 --> 00:26:48.565 since he has such an anti-LLM AI policy. 00:26:48.565 --> 00:26:52.765 Ironic, isn't it? Personally, I have no issue with this. 00:26:53.565 --> 00:26:59.665 I really firmly believe in the no strings attached gift that Zig is to the world. 00:26:59.845 --> 00:27:04.305 You know, if someone wants to use Zig for AI training, great, I don't care. 00:27:05.325 --> 00:27:09.625 That's fine. The fact that these companies are doing things that I don't like, 00:27:09.785 --> 00:27:12.805 I don't like that they're doing it, but it doesn't bother me that they're using 00:27:12.805 --> 00:27:15.205 zig i think that the more that zig 00:27:15.205 --> 00:27:19.485 is being used it just shows that zig is valuable that's the way i see it. 00:27:19.485 --> 00:27:22.465 Okay now that seems to be a pretty balanced 00:27:22.465 --> 00:27:25.885 take i like that take and you know it's probably the best one you have you can 00:27:25.885 --> 00:27:30.965 have when you have that licensing but uh there's a i think maybe the biggest 00:27:30.965 --> 00:27:34.825 tell in this last question because this seems to be a common thread that i've 00:27:34.825 --> 00:27:41.285 come across a lot andrew was asked if he has tried any ai assisted or vibe coding tools i. 00:27:41.285 --> 00:27:48.685 I i love computers and I love learning about what people are doing with them. And there's a. 00:27:49.758 --> 00:27:54.658 A sense of mystery and magic that you can get from reading someone's explanation 00:27:54.658 --> 00:27:56.378 of a project that they did that 00:27:56.378 --> 00:27:59.558 took them a very long time and they had to learn lessons and they had to, 00:28:00.078 --> 00:28:05.118 increase their skill as a programmer and as a user of computers in order to accomplish this goal. 00:28:05.358 --> 00:28:09.238 And when you read a blog post like this, it's brilliant. 00:28:09.658 --> 00:28:14.258 It captures the imagination, it makes you think about what you could do yourself, 00:28:14.258 --> 00:28:17.638 it teaches you something, it connects you to them emotionally. 00:28:18.118 --> 00:28:22.778 But I mean, on the other hand, we're seeing people say, oh, I tried this version 00:28:22.778 --> 00:28:28.658 of Cloud or that version of OpenAI and it works surprisingly well. 00:28:28.778 --> 00:28:34.198 I'm always hearing people say that AI code works surprisingly well. 00:28:34.378 --> 00:28:37.998 But to me, this is not the bar that I want to hold software to. 00:28:38.338 --> 00:28:42.258 The bar that I want to hold software to is uncompromising perfection. 00:28:42.738 --> 00:28:47.178 You know, I don't want to be surprised by the absence of a bug. 00:28:47.338 --> 00:28:50.858 That's a horrible quality bar to believe in. 00:28:51.298 --> 00:28:57.138 So, I mean, it's just so many people saying, I don't know, I tried coding this app and it kind of works. 00:28:57.738 --> 00:29:01.778 Okay. You know, it's just so uninspiring. 00:29:02.098 --> 00:29:08.178 But have you tried Vype coding yourself? I did a call, I did a private call 00:29:08.178 --> 00:29:14.198 with Richard Feldman, a friend of mine, and he showed me how to use Vibe Coding 00:29:14.198 --> 00:29:16.498 with Zed and I tried it out. 00:29:17.998 --> 00:29:23.678 And I thought that, I think that the technology is fundamentally interesting. 00:29:24.038 --> 00:29:28.358 What really turns me off is the fact that it's centrally controlled by four 00:29:28.358 --> 00:29:33.998 companies and they have total control over what it's doing. 00:29:34.278 --> 00:29:37.778 They have total control over the models. I mean, it's. 00:29:39.309 --> 00:29:46.069 I'm not going to go from using my own computer and my own electricity to do 00:29:46.069 --> 00:29:53.709 my code in order to use closed source programming on someone else's computer through the network. 00:29:53.869 --> 00:29:56.309 This is that I have to pay for monthly. 00:29:56.509 --> 00:29:58.969 I mean, some people are paying $300 a month for this. 00:30:00.609 --> 00:30:04.289 To me, this is an insane proposition. 00:30:04.489 --> 00:30:08.969 I would never want to give up what I have in order to get, 00:30:11.329 --> 00:30:12.629 the results of gen ai. 00:30:12.629 --> 00:30:13.889 So a. 00:30:13.889 --> 00:30:14.949 Lot to react to in there. 00:30:14.949 --> 00:30:18.709 Yeah i thought so too um you know he wants software to be immaculate you know 00:30:18.709 --> 00:30:23.269 the the absence of well i don't think it has a bug should not be the bar but 00:30:23.269 --> 00:30:27.589 i think that's just sort of a straw man argument because the reality is most 00:30:27.589 --> 00:30:28.509 software development is oh 00:30:28.509 --> 00:30:30.969 my god it built and it's running i can't believe it's doing the thing so. 00:30:30.969 --> 00:30:34.109 This is actually i think this part i do like the most is i think the, 00:30:35.807 --> 00:30:38.587 something like a core language or like the core of 00:30:38.587 --> 00:30:41.267 a database you want to strive for well and it's just the 00:30:41.267 --> 00:30:44.127 area where writing the code was not the hardest 00:30:44.127 --> 00:30:49.527 part it's almost all design and thought work versus building out the next crud 00:30:49.527 --> 00:30:52.667 layer for your business or building a desktop app which a lot of it is like 00:30:52.667 --> 00:30:56.387 you just have to write mechanical code yeah yeah and so i'm not saying the lms 00:30:56.387 --> 00:30:58.927 wouldn't also be useful for what he's doing i'm not that's not my point i'm 00:30:58.927 --> 00:31:00.207 more just saying there's different 00:31:00.207 --> 00:31:03.147 you would the advantages and how you would use them are different, 00:31:03.667 --> 00:31:06.607 And so that is, I think, the strongest part, and the rest of it kind of falls out. 00:31:06.627 --> 00:31:08.627 So what was it you reacted to in there? What struck you in there? 00:31:10.027 --> 00:31:13.347 Kind of like the rest of it, I guess. That part, I can kind of understand why 00:31:13.347 --> 00:31:15.207 maybe you want to very carefully craft. 00:31:15.327 --> 00:31:17.347 Yeah, from their project. 00:31:17.347 --> 00:31:19.907 He mentions review, but it's like the whole thing here is review, right? 00:31:20.247 --> 00:31:20.387 Yeah. 00:31:20.487 --> 00:31:24.507 That's the question here, is to what extent do we have to and how closely and 00:31:24.507 --> 00:31:26.707 what guardrails do we put on this code? 00:31:27.347 --> 00:31:31.547 And so whether or not it is, because before we just didn't have any other way. 00:31:31.647 --> 00:31:35.647 It was either humans wrote it or it didn't happen. And now we have this new way. 00:31:35.867 --> 00:31:39.307 And so I think in the sense that that is essentially an argument for a very 00:31:39.307 --> 00:31:44.427 high standard of review in the core of this thing, that's totally reasonable, right? 00:31:44.507 --> 00:31:49.827 And it could be that all of the things that he's calling AI written don't meet 00:31:49.827 --> 00:31:51.007 that. And then that's totally fine. 00:31:51.147 --> 00:31:54.307 And that doesn't surprise me, right? Because he has a really high bar, 00:31:54.507 --> 00:31:58.767 probably does take someone with some taste to be able to craft something that 00:31:58.767 --> 00:32:01.667 really meets it in a way that maybe LLMs aren't great at right now. 00:32:01.667 --> 00:32:03.287 That seems totally plausible. 00:32:03.587 --> 00:32:07.787 It just seems like that maybe is what we could be talking about versus like 00:32:07.787 --> 00:32:10.907 maybe there's a lot of stuff where like for one of our picks last night, 00:32:11.087 --> 00:32:16.527 I left a vibe coding session building a flake for it because I can audit it at the end. 00:32:16.647 --> 00:32:19.727 I don't need to be involved. I know how to read Nix. I can all test it and build it myself. 00:32:19.867 --> 00:32:21.087 It's not particularly complicated. 00:32:21.227 --> 00:32:21.367 Right. 00:32:22.354 --> 00:32:25.354 But maybe I wouldn't want to do that for something that was going to be the 00:32:25.354 --> 00:32:26.714 core of the business I was trying to build. 00:32:26.954 --> 00:32:30.734 Right, right. Yeah, for sure. Brent, also what struck me is there's a common 00:32:30.734 --> 00:32:34.874 thread generally when people have a negative opinion towards the tooling. 00:32:35.894 --> 00:32:42.154 Also, just the glaring hole of, I mean, as a critique of proprietary platforms, hell yeah. 00:32:42.554 --> 00:32:43.034 Yeah, yeah. 00:32:43.114 --> 00:32:46.514 The big tech. Where is the mention of any of the open weight models? 00:32:46.754 --> 00:32:46.914 Yeah. 00:32:47.294 --> 00:32:50.194 And also, the reality is, is that it's a competitive marketplace. 00:32:50.194 --> 00:32:53.414 So if, you know, Anthropic does something weird, you switch over. 00:32:53.554 --> 00:32:55.314 If OpenAI does something weird, you switch over. 00:32:55.954 --> 00:33:00.014 And then there is a touch of irony that he's on the JetBrains podcast because 00:33:00.014 --> 00:33:03.814 you could make the same argument about commercial IDEs versus open source IDEs. 00:33:04.234 --> 00:33:05.354 So there's a touch of irony there. 00:33:05.514 --> 00:33:08.714 I mean, for there was a while where, like, you couldn't really be a professional 00:33:08.714 --> 00:33:10.874 Java developer without having a JetBrains license. 00:33:11.214 --> 00:33:14.194 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I think it's a little ironic. 00:33:14.334 --> 00:33:16.674 So, Brent, I don't know if you pick up on this comment thread, 00:33:16.734 --> 00:33:19.774 but a lot of times it seems like the people that are pretty down on the tooling, 00:33:21.140 --> 00:33:25.380 They seem to go through a process of trying it, and if they give it an honest 00:33:25.380 --> 00:33:28.000 try, maybe they evolve it a little bit, then it starts solving a problem for 00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:31.340 them, then they advance the tooling, and then they seem to get kind of more 00:33:31.340 --> 00:33:32.120 and more impressed by it. 00:33:32.840 --> 00:33:36.860 But he kind of took perhaps the worst introduction route, it sounds, possible. 00:33:37.040 --> 00:33:41.600 He got like on a Zoom call with a buddy who showed him how to do it through the Zed editor. 00:33:42.740 --> 00:33:47.320 And this is the creator of Zig. Like he showed him like the Fisher-Price version 00:33:47.320 --> 00:33:48.860 of the tooling. What are your thoughts on that? 00:33:48.860 --> 00:33:51.780 Well uh i understand the hesitation 00:33:51.780 --> 00:33:55.040 from a lot of folks but to understand like a fundamentally new 00:33:55.040 --> 00:33:58.260 technology like this you have to spend time with it and you 00:33:58.260 --> 00:34:01.020 have to make mistakes with it you have 00:34:01.020 --> 00:34:04.100 to like there's this iteration of how you think about 00:34:04.100 --> 00:34:07.040 the tooling that just takes time 00:34:07.040 --> 00:34:11.920 you can't get that in one zoom call of a buddy showing you how it works on his 00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:18.300 computer right and i think you both would agree that our way of using these 00:34:18.300 --> 00:34:24.320 tools for each of our workflows is like evolving every single week and only 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:26.520 through that do you get the perspectives, 00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:31.860 of what it's even capable of and the nuance of where it's good and where it's 00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:39.880 not good and the current status even of the landscape and so the common thread 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:42.400 you're you're mentioning is that that we so often see, 00:34:43.969 --> 00:34:47.289 criticisms of the technology and like 00:34:47.289 --> 00:34:50.829 really strong opinions from people who haven't really 00:34:50.829 --> 00:34:53.849 spent the time to try to understand the technology and 00:34:53.849 --> 00:34:57.629 to use it fundamentally in their work and so 00:34:57.629 --> 00:35:03.209 it i don't know in i don't want to say invalidates but it it kind of takes away 00:35:03.209 --> 00:35:11.609 from the argument slightly because uh there's a chance to understand the landscape 00:35:11.609 --> 00:35:16.429 better and to have a more intelligible discussion about where it might be useful and not. 00:35:16.429 --> 00:35:19.549 I would say the other thing that's sort of kind of a combo with that that can 00:35:19.549 --> 00:35:22.549 be tricky is if your impression is from six to nine months ago. 00:35:22.549 --> 00:35:23.409 It unfortunately. 00:35:23.409 --> 00:35:27.509 Might be out of date now and that sucks because it's really hard to stay current. 00:35:27.509 --> 00:35:31.649 There's also maybe a output sort of selection effect too if like a lot of what 00:35:31.649 --> 00:35:35.769 you see is what people post in prs to your project that could be from who knows 00:35:35.769 --> 00:35:37.449 what setup or sophistication. 00:35:37.449 --> 00:35:37.969 Of Mm-hmm. 00:35:38.329 --> 00:35:38.729 LLM? 00:35:39.129 --> 00:35:42.289 Yeah. In fact, to kind of make a point, let's shift ahead a little bit here, 00:35:42.309 --> 00:35:47.909 because I think this shows you this really bifurcation of the part of the community 00:35:47.909 --> 00:35:52.149 that's really digging in and a part of the community that seems to be really accelerating. 00:35:52.569 --> 00:35:58.869 And before we get there, I just want to say, as from like a macro market whatever perspective, 00:35:59.129 --> 00:36:03.409 it is sort of fascinating to like let Zig, you know, rock its freak flag and 00:36:03.409 --> 00:36:07.609 not take any AI or LLM-assisted coding. and let's see where that goes. 00:36:08.129 --> 00:36:11.409 That could be really fun and interesting to watch over time and maybe become 00:36:11.409 --> 00:36:12.809 something really unique and bespoke. 00:36:13.009 --> 00:36:15.509 It's already a nice, kind of neat language in place. 00:36:15.649 --> 00:36:17.469 So like, I don't, you know, whatever, whatever they want to do, 00:36:17.549 --> 00:36:20.229 that's their decision. So I just wanted to make that point clear. 00:36:20.309 --> 00:36:23.649 It's just, it is really useful to reflect on for a conversation of where this 00:36:23.649 --> 00:36:24.269 is going because it's- Yeah. 00:36:24.289 --> 00:36:27.389 That's our, we want to comment on the general mood, not necessarily any of their, 00:36:27.749 --> 00:36:29.469 yeah, have ownership of your project. 00:36:29.589 --> 00:36:32.809 They encapsulate what's going on with a lot of communities and projects right now. 00:36:33.169 --> 00:36:38.669 Now, FWUPDI on the other end here had an audit done by Mythos and apparently 00:36:38.669 --> 00:36:41.069 spotted a number of issues, 12, 00:36:41.873 --> 00:36:45.673 And 12 issues were reported, but two were dismissed as not bugs, 00:36:45.713 --> 00:36:49.453 and eight were ranked as low severity, and two were considered moderate. 00:36:49.953 --> 00:36:54.313 But they went through and started cleaning things up, and so we now have FWEPD 00:36:54.313 --> 00:36:59.393 2.1.4, which brings many fixes for the bugs that were spotted by the LLMs. 00:36:59.713 --> 00:37:03.813 Also includes firmware update support for the ARC Pro B65 and B70s. 00:37:03.833 --> 00:37:05.273 As usual, getting good work done over there. 00:37:05.273 --> 00:37:05.433 Yeah. 00:37:05.673 --> 00:37:10.053 I did think it was kind of interesting here. Hughes says he was surprised over 00:37:10.053 --> 00:37:12.153 Mythos finding so many issues in the code base. 00:37:12.233 --> 00:37:15.273 Because it kind of sounds like it didn't find that much in one sense when you hear that list. 00:37:15.433 --> 00:37:18.133 I think the standards for FWEPTA are probably pretty high, right? 00:37:18.133 --> 00:37:20.493 It's like a newer code base. It's been very actively maintained. 00:37:20.613 --> 00:37:22.633 He's an experienced professional developer. 00:37:22.873 --> 00:37:24.653 So it may be interesting there. 00:37:24.833 --> 00:37:32.073 Then we've also been seeing a stack, I guess is being put, of Linux networking fixes coming in. 00:37:32.493 --> 00:37:36.853 And the pull requests seem to be using AI assistants. Linux networking maintainers 00:37:36.853 --> 00:37:41.513 have seen a larger fix pull request than typical this late in the cycle. 00:37:41.813 --> 00:37:45.473 Many fixes spurred by AI and LM coding agents, Michael Arbel writes. 00:37:46.153 --> 00:37:49.093 Cloud Code and ChatGPT Codex are contributing to the increased patch flow, 00:37:49.173 --> 00:37:52.053 helping developers find and submit more fixes across the networking stack. 00:37:52.353 --> 00:37:55.713 The upside, of course, is much faster bug discovery, especially in something 00:37:55.713 --> 00:37:58.033 that can be remote listening, and more code cleanup. 00:37:58.113 --> 00:38:01.433 But the downside is there is more maintainer load and churn, 00:38:01.713 --> 00:38:04.113 especially late in the Linux 7.1 cycle. 00:38:05.113 --> 00:38:07.353 And we do know that they don't love late cycle changes. 00:38:07.853 --> 00:38:13.713 Right. And then GitHub Copilot of all of them and CloudCode helped with numerous 00:38:13.713 --> 00:38:17.013 graphics and Wi-Fi Linux driver issues in just the last week. 00:38:17.193 --> 00:38:21.533 GitHub Copilot and CloudCode helped generate and co-author other large batches 00:38:21.533 --> 00:38:24.433 of Linux kernel fixes during the 7.1 RC5 cycle. 00:38:24.433 --> 00:38:29.453 AI-assisted fixes touched a wide spread of kernel areas, including the Intel 00:38:29.453 --> 00:38:34.693 Z, Raspberry Pi Video, AMD Display Code, SMB, NetFilter, SysFS, 00:38:34.933 --> 00:38:37.013 IO Ring, Bluetooth, and more. 00:38:38.089 --> 00:38:41.469 The kernel is also using disclosure norms like assisted by AI tags, 00:38:41.609 --> 00:38:45.389 making it easier to track where AI has helped while keeping the human batch process visible. 00:38:45.609 --> 00:38:47.609 Yeah, that's going to be interesting to watch over time. 00:38:47.869 --> 00:38:50.729 Yeah. So the humans are still involved. They can see which ones are committed 00:38:50.729 --> 00:38:52.389 by AI and they're accepting them. 00:38:52.769 --> 00:38:57.349 And we're seeing a high velocity of fixes in Wi-Fi drivers and in graphics drivers. 00:38:58.249 --> 00:39:03.829 In the networking stack in general, there's also been file system fixes that have landed recently. 00:39:03.829 --> 00:39:06.689 See, this is kind of touching on what I was trying to get at is there's like 00:39:06.689 --> 00:39:08.729 different kinds of structures of code, right? 00:39:08.809 --> 00:39:12.449 And abstraction and like how general or how widely used they are. 00:39:12.569 --> 00:39:16.349 And so it'll be interesting to watch where you see more or less sort of first 00:39:16.349 --> 00:39:18.849 use as LMs progress and as more folks use them. 00:39:18.949 --> 00:39:23.329 And it makes total sense, I think, in that model that drivers and existing drivers 00:39:23.329 --> 00:39:25.929 would be in one area that makes total that would be a good fit. 00:39:25.929 --> 00:39:30.529 But to Brent's point earlier in my comment, like, I would bet sats that none 00:39:30.529 --> 00:39:34.389 of these are being developed using Zed or ChatGPT in the web, 00:39:35.129 --> 00:39:37.849 right? They're using actual tools with harnesses that they're, 00:39:37.909 --> 00:39:39.049 you know, running on their machines. 00:39:39.349 --> 00:39:43.029 So we should go take a look and maybe pull in some of these. I'd be curious to see. 00:39:43.129 --> 00:39:45.889 They're running cloud code. You know, they're using cloud code and they're using codex. 00:39:46.109 --> 00:39:46.549 This one's copilot. 00:39:46.729 --> 00:39:47.729 Yeah, okay, and copilot. 00:39:48.089 --> 00:39:48.869 Surprisingly. 00:39:48.869 --> 00:39:52.849 The other thing that comes to mind for me is like, are people forking the Linux 00:39:52.849 --> 00:39:57.489 kernel then to not have any AI code in their kernel? Are we seeing that? 00:39:57.669 --> 00:40:03.829 Good question. I also wonder, I bet you, right, because I know like Greg has his own cool customs. 00:40:03.969 --> 00:40:08.189 I bet there's going to be a lot of sort of bespoke kernel things that get spun 00:40:08.189 --> 00:40:09.549 up as well because that's their style. 00:40:09.549 --> 00:40:14.609 And then lastly, QMU is considering shifting away from their previous blanket 00:40:14.609 --> 00:40:19.229 ban on AI-generated contributions and opening the door for AI-assisted for lower-risked 00:40:19.229 --> 00:40:21.509 parts of the project. So this is another interesting approach. 00:40:21.869 --> 00:40:25.949 You know, certain stuff will let you do AI-assisted coding on, but not for everything. 00:40:26.109 --> 00:40:29.489 The proposed policy would allow AI help for tests, documentation, 00:40:30.069 --> 00:40:32.229 mechanical changes, and small bug fixes. 00:40:33.193 --> 00:40:37.033 Contributors would need to disclose that they're using AI usage with the AI-assisted 00:40:37.033 --> 00:40:41.073 tag and giving QMU a way to accept the productivity boost while keeping the 00:40:41.073 --> 00:40:42.473 review and accountability intact. 00:40:43.613 --> 00:40:47.593 So this is maybe a way to dip the toe in to see if this is useful for the project 00:40:47.593 --> 00:40:49.093 without getting completely swamped 00:40:49.093 --> 00:40:51.933 all over the place. Seems kind of like maybe the balanced tag here. 00:40:52.293 --> 00:40:55.013 And areas you're comfortable with and maybe, you know, you have really good 00:40:55.013 --> 00:40:57.873 tests on and you'll know you'll catch regressions and it's easy to review, 00:40:58.013 --> 00:40:58.813 you know, things like that. 00:40:58.813 --> 00:41:02.173 And kind of signal to the community, we're being careful, we're willing to evaluate 00:41:02.173 --> 00:41:05.073 this policy, we're going to change it from time to time, which I think is also 00:41:05.073 --> 00:41:06.953 probably pretty reasonable because it's moving so fast. 00:41:07.073 --> 00:41:10.333 Right, exactly. And you should keep evaluating as you see different results 00:41:10.333 --> 00:41:12.633 with how it goes or doesn't work with your project. 00:41:13.733 --> 00:41:18.633 All right, so we'd like you to boost in. How do you feel about AI-assisted code 00:41:18.633 --> 00:41:23.033 in the open source projects or distribution that you're using, 00:41:23.033 --> 00:41:24.873 you depend on, you know, your favorite applications? 00:41:25.373 --> 00:41:29.273 If you discovered it was being contributed to by AI and AI-assisted coding, 00:41:29.553 --> 00:41:31.033 what's your reaction to that? 00:41:31.593 --> 00:41:33.933 Boost in, let us know. We'd like to get your take on it. 00:41:34.193 --> 00:41:40.013 Quick unscientific survey. We got anti-gravity, we got CLOD, and we got Codex. 00:41:40.133 --> 00:41:40.353 In the kernel? 00:41:40.833 --> 00:41:44.633 Yep, those are just the most recent things today from the searching for commits with assisted by. 00:41:44.633 --> 00:41:47.113 Just today? Wow. Oh, just recently. I see. 00:41:47.353 --> 00:41:47.733 Yeah, this week. 00:41:47.793 --> 00:41:51.573 Anti-gravity, huh? Look at Google Go. You wouldn't think it, would you? 00:41:54.207 --> 00:41:57.447 Hey, I want to take a second and thank my friends over at Connect and Internet. 00:41:57.667 --> 00:42:01.347 Use the promo code Jupiter35 to take $35 off your entire order. 00:42:01.547 --> 00:42:05.287 They're not a sponsor, but I've been working with them recently to get a discount 00:42:05.287 --> 00:42:09.707 for you guys because they've become my new go-to cellular internet provider. 00:42:09.887 --> 00:42:14.067 Because what they do is they're an MBNO on all four major carriers. 00:42:14.467 --> 00:42:18.707 Then they give you hardware that has antennae and modems for all four major 00:42:18.707 --> 00:42:20.407 carriers, which is awesome. 00:42:20.407 --> 00:42:21.527 How did you not have this earlier? 00:42:21.667 --> 00:42:24.187 And how do I not have it? I had to build it, and then somebody else came along 00:42:24.187 --> 00:42:25.127 and said, we'll make a product out of it. 00:42:25.227 --> 00:42:27.867 And then on top of that, they're load balancing and figuring out which one's 00:42:27.867 --> 00:42:32.347 giving you the best data or isn't capping you or something like that and moving you around. 00:42:32.727 --> 00:42:36.987 They do offer truly unlimited data plans with priority data as well if you want 00:42:36.987 --> 00:42:40.387 to pay for it, which it's within my price budget considering the things I paid for. 00:42:41.546 --> 00:42:44.806 But I think the thing that's even cooler and maybe kind of what I'm going to 00:42:44.806 --> 00:42:50.246 be doing going forward is they now offer a backup internet plan. It's just $39 a month. 00:42:50.386 --> 00:42:53.286 They give you a slick router that auto monitors your connection. 00:42:53.286 --> 00:42:55.846 I think it's using OpenWRT under the hood like mine is. 00:42:56.286 --> 00:42:59.786 And when your main internet goes down, it instantly connects to one of the four 00:42:59.786 --> 00:43:01.886 major wireless carriers who has the best signal in your area. 00:43:02.086 --> 00:43:05.246 And then it detects when your main internet connection comes back up and switches 00:43:05.246 --> 00:43:06.686 back to your main internet connection automatically. 00:43:07.206 --> 00:43:09.626 They call it the Fortress. No, I'm using the Fortress router. 00:43:09.626 --> 00:43:11.886 Or do they call theirs the, well, they have a cool name for it. 00:43:11.966 --> 00:43:14.686 I don't know. But mine's the Fortress Router. So they all have these great names. 00:43:14.786 --> 00:43:16.526 See, that just seems like a clear business expense. 00:43:16.786 --> 00:43:20.766 My Fortress Router, though, is big. You wouldn't want to bring this thing, 00:43:20.826 --> 00:43:22.046 like, on your mobile setup. 00:43:22.246 --> 00:43:27.226 This one's for, like, on the homestead, permanent internet, seven antennas coming 00:43:27.226 --> 00:43:30.526 off of this thing, massive POE-powered box. 00:43:30.526 --> 00:43:31.306 Piece of infrastructure. 00:43:31.646 --> 00:43:36.326 So go to connectinternet.com. We'll put a link in the show notes and use the promo code Jupiter35. 00:43:37.166 --> 00:43:40.926 and I can tell you that $39 backup internet plan is a crazy good value. 00:43:41.286 --> 00:43:48.486 I mean, back in the day, you had to pay for a full LTE data line to do this all the time. 00:43:48.766 --> 00:43:51.946 And you're just sitting there not using it when it's crazy. So this backup is 00:43:51.946 --> 00:43:53.206 a great idea for 40 bucks a month. 00:43:53.666 --> 00:43:56.546 So go check it out, connectedinternet.com, promo code Jupyter35. 00:43:56.646 --> 00:43:59.846 It's nice to have a spot to plug them because they've been awesome to work with 00:43:59.846 --> 00:44:01.406 and they're going to hook you guys up. 00:44:04.808 --> 00:44:09.188 Well, a couple of pieces of feedback this week. Zag Attack has one for us. 00:44:09.368 --> 00:44:13.448 With the Bitwarden situation, I do not like that the costs went up $10. 00:44:14.088 --> 00:44:17.568 Since I already have a Proton account, I'm probably looking at migrating to 00:44:17.568 --> 00:44:18.908 them for password management. 00:44:19.328 --> 00:44:24.988 Passwords and 2FA keys are something I consider too important to just have on my self-hosting setup. 00:44:25.388 --> 00:44:29.648 I want to have one copy that I control and another that is on infrastructure 00:44:29.648 --> 00:44:32.488 that is managed and maintained 24-7. 00:44:33.128 --> 00:44:37.388 We'll also continue keeping a local copy in key pass like I do now. 00:44:38.828 --> 00:44:40.328 Defense and depth. I like that. 00:44:40.588 --> 00:44:46.848 Yeah. I realized where I really took a turn and just went all in on Bitwarden was pass keys. 00:44:47.188 --> 00:44:49.968 When pass keys came along, a guy just got sucked in. 00:44:51.128 --> 00:44:55.328 And I did not put my two factors in there, though. So that at least I don't have to migrate. 00:44:56.588 --> 00:45:00.768 Anonymous wrote in. He says, what about this banger swap? Sup, everyone. 00:45:00.948 --> 00:45:05.928 I'm building my own Arch-based Hyperland distro called Hyperspace OS. OS, OS, OS. 00:45:06.508 --> 00:45:10.168 My school teacher likes the name. I like it, too. And I'm trying to figure out 00:45:10.168 --> 00:45:13.648 a simple way to update the system configs, mostly Hyperland comps, 00:45:13.648 --> 00:45:15.408 so people can get updates way more easy. 00:45:16.048 --> 00:45:19.908 Do you guys have any suggestions for a good update method for a small project 00:45:19.908 --> 00:45:23.948 like this? By the way, I'm 12 and I'm still learning, so can you get some advice 00:45:23.948 --> 00:45:27.408 for how I should approach it in a good way and not nuke my PC? 00:45:27.928 --> 00:45:28.448 P.S. 00:45:28.468 --> 00:45:32.408 I wanted to make this because I saw ML4W Hyperland configs and they're pretty 00:45:32.408 --> 00:45:34.908 bangers, so now I want to start building my own. Yes! 00:45:36.068 --> 00:45:36.508 Excellent. 00:45:36.848 --> 00:45:42.128 Love this. I mean, is this a good opportunity to learn a little Git and then 00:45:42.128 --> 00:45:48.668 perhaps everybody that is running Hyperspace OS has a little scheduled job that 00:45:48.668 --> 00:45:49.848 does a little Git checkout? 00:45:50.388 --> 00:45:51.828 You could totally do something like that, yeah. 00:45:51.828 --> 00:45:54.408 And if something goes wrong, it's pretty easy to roll back, and then you have 00:45:54.408 --> 00:45:55.448 them do a little other update. 00:45:55.668 --> 00:46:00.108 Git gets you all of the version control stuff, so you can keep multiple copies and, yeah, roll back. 00:46:00.308 --> 00:46:00.548 Yeah. 00:46:00.608 --> 00:46:04.228 I'm so proud of you. It's just so touching. Yeah. You're just, 00:46:04.368 --> 00:46:06.108 now you're spreading Git. It's so nice. 00:46:06.408 --> 00:46:08.168 Yeah, he did mention Merkle trees, though. 00:46:08.348 --> 00:46:11.088 Well, you'd need something in Hyperspace OS that's checking in, 00:46:11.308 --> 00:46:15.028 or some sort of little updater script for them that goes and pulls the latest, 00:46:15.068 --> 00:46:18.588 you know, checkout and all that and brings it down. But I think it'd be totally possible. 00:46:19.128 --> 00:46:21.908 That sounds like a really great project. Keep us posted on that. 00:46:22.428 --> 00:46:25.388 We'd love to hear how it's going. And very impressive work. 00:46:26.008 --> 00:46:28.448 You're already off to a great start. 00:46:29.728 --> 00:46:33.168 And let's get to the boost. We had some support for this episode. 00:46:33.228 --> 00:46:36.908 And we're going to start out with a live boost. It's coming in right now, West Payne. 00:46:36.968 --> 00:46:39.668 Boop-a-da-boop-boop-boop-boop-a-da-boop. Coming in from the one, 00:46:39.788 --> 00:46:45.028 the only, our podcast with 500,000 sacks. 00:46:55.688 --> 00:46:58.928 A giant on-topic boost? That's unheard of. 00:46:59.368 --> 00:47:05.728 Wow! Shoah has needed the support recently, so thank you, Rpodcast. Hello, JB. 00:47:06.088 --> 00:47:09.588 This is a long overdue boost to thank you all for helping me finally get over 00:47:09.588 --> 00:47:13.188 the hump and use of AI practically to make my dev life better. Oh, good. 00:47:13.988 --> 00:47:18.388 Through Open Router and Claude Opus, I was able to migrate a very complex Nix 00:47:18.388 --> 00:47:23.068 config from Wimpy's GitHub to my System76 machines. That is a complex one. 00:47:23.208 --> 00:47:23.708 Yeah, it is. 00:47:23.728 --> 00:47:28.408 I've seen that. Yeah, very well done. See, now he's got it on the OG Thaleo, 00:47:28.568 --> 00:47:31.188 the new Thaleo Mira, and a Darter Pro Lab. 00:47:31.888 --> 00:47:37.048 Now I have Hermes installed and I would really enjoy a future livestream tutorial 00:47:37.048 --> 00:47:40.108 on how Chris sets up his agents to do the magic they do. Thanks again. 00:47:40.928 --> 00:47:41.788 Do you have a month? 00:47:42.128 --> 00:47:42.888 That's a fun idea. 00:47:42.888 --> 00:47:48.408 That's not a bad idea at all. Jeez, I have been doing so much recently that 00:47:48.408 --> 00:47:54.188 I'm kind of at a stabilization point, but it was two weeks of, I call it my B-plot. 00:47:54.268 --> 00:47:57.568 of the day where I have like a zelge session with like open 00:47:57.568 --> 00:48:00.248 code going and I just everywhere I go I 00:48:00.248 --> 00:48:02.788 just sort of pull it up and I just keep moving the agent forward and then when 00:48:02.788 --> 00:48:05.848 they start introducing slash goal like it just unlocked the whole new level 00:48:05.848 --> 00:48:10.028 of like I just walk away for a while and I come back and I move it forward but 00:48:10.028 --> 00:48:15.228 just yesterday I was I was doing another jam sesh I should have I should stream 00:48:15.228 --> 00:48:18.848 it get a little music going totally but how would you know it's happening. 00:48:18.848 --> 00:48:24.608 Yeah we'd have to have a signal throw it up on a live in the app at least. 00:48:24.608 --> 00:48:28.728 I'm going to give it some thought i i do think that i i do think now i should 00:48:28.728 --> 00:48:32.408 have been capturing that i think a lot of times when i'm in the fever build 00:48:32.408 --> 00:48:37.088 phase i probably lose so much content on the floor just plowing through it and 00:48:37.088 --> 00:48:38.028 i look back at what i built i 00:48:38.028 --> 00:48:41.468 go wow i don't even know how i had the time and energy to do that it is it. 00:48:41.468 --> 00:48:42.408 Is a fever dream state. 00:48:42.408 --> 00:48:42.928 That is that. 00:48:42.928 --> 00:48:43.888 Is for for real. 00:48:43.888 --> 00:48:46.968 It's um it's unbelievable what i feel but thank you very much our podcast thank 00:48:46.968 --> 00:48:51.108 you thank you very much uh really do appreciate it and I'm going to give some 00:48:51.108 --> 00:48:53.028 thought to that keep you updated. 00:48:53.628 --> 00:48:58.248 A Dude Dry and Stuff boosts in with 27,368. 00:48:58.248 --> 00:48:58.928 Cents Oh! 00:49:05.405 --> 00:49:11.285 I tried for a while to think of what would constitute a Brent boost, as in B-R-E-N-T. 00:49:11.725 --> 00:49:14.705 Brentley won't pin his tabs. So, ended up with this. 00:49:14.705 --> 00:49:16.245 Hold on. There we go. 00:49:20.505 --> 00:49:22.785 Yeah. Yeah, I love that. 00:49:23.125 --> 00:49:26.045 I tried for a while to think of what would constitute a Brent boost, 00:49:26.205 --> 00:49:28.485 so ended up with this T9 dialing approach. 00:49:28.585 --> 00:49:31.945 So, I guess that's how we get the 27368. Okay. 00:49:32.245 --> 00:49:35.025 Wanted to boost in and say, yes, I do appreciate the RHEL coverage. 00:49:35.025 --> 00:49:38.745 It's both something that heavily influences my future career and current learning, 00:49:38.745 --> 00:49:41.925 but I did not have enough time to sift through myself. 00:49:42.645 --> 00:49:45.805 Well, that's great. That's kind of what we're going for, I guess. Exactly. 00:49:46.485 --> 00:49:49.965 Lastly, I've been self-hosting Vault Warden through Docker Compose on a $12 00:49:49.965 --> 00:49:52.965 VPS for the last year and a half. It's been a great experience. 00:49:53.425 --> 00:49:56.585 So thank you for the feedback on REL because we were just kicking ourselves 00:49:56.585 --> 00:50:01.765 about an hour ago for doing it because it just really was seemingly a stinker. 00:50:02.445 --> 00:50:09.385 Okay, so 27368 in T9 translates to Brent. 00:50:09.805 --> 00:50:12.125 You looked at it. You verified it. Look at you. 00:50:12.225 --> 00:50:12.945 I did. That's good. 00:50:13.025 --> 00:50:14.045 That's your version of the map. 00:50:14.365 --> 00:50:17.505 So a Brent boost, 27, yeah, except for it needs a sound effect if it is, 00:50:17.565 --> 00:50:21.365 because come on, 27368 is a Brent boost. How about that? 00:50:21.685 --> 00:50:25.785 Well, obviously it's Brent won't pin his tabs. That's the sound one, right? 00:50:26.185 --> 00:50:27.785 And you have to open a new tab every time. 00:50:28.065 --> 00:50:28.425 Yeah. 00:50:30.705 --> 00:50:37.945 I love it. Well, we got another boost here from the facial hair, 5,000 sets. 00:50:39.904 --> 00:50:44.764 I'm back with more freshly mined sats and another report of an area where Linux 00:50:44.764 --> 00:50:46.464 and open source are doing great. 00:50:46.724 --> 00:50:52.504 This time is worship centers. I have changed two churches and a mosque over to Linux recently. 00:50:52.724 --> 00:50:56.624 They wanted a system that is stable and won't update in the middle of a service. 00:50:56.864 --> 00:51:01.264 Many of these centers also can't afford hardware upgrades or struggling with 00:51:01.264 --> 00:51:04.444 Windows 11 dropping support for older mixers. 00:51:04.944 --> 00:51:07.464 Yeah. It does seem... 00:51:07.464 --> 00:51:10.024 It does seem, almost seems something sort of wrong about, like, 00:51:10.164 --> 00:51:13.364 bilking churches out of subscription money for a basic operating system. 00:51:13.724 --> 00:51:17.284 Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. You know, they just need Linux and maybe a little OBS 00:51:17.284 --> 00:51:19.224 if they want to do a stream or something like that. 00:51:19.744 --> 00:51:21.904 And if they could bring some tracks in, that's awesome. 00:51:22.424 --> 00:51:23.264 They saw the light. 00:51:23.764 --> 00:51:26.464 Keep it going, Hare. We like to see people getting migrated. 00:51:27.424 --> 00:51:29.844 Landlocked also came in with, if you have a story out there, 00:51:30.124 --> 00:51:32.624 do boost it in. Landlocked came in with 5,000 sats. 00:51:33.704 --> 00:51:36.884 And he's boosting from the Indy 5,000 with 5,000 sats. 00:51:38.164 --> 00:51:42.464 does that just make us jealous or what I don't know but do you like my sound effect race. 00:51:42.464 --> 00:51:43.064 Car boost, 00:51:45.684 --> 00:51:46.384 you got that. 00:51:48.824 --> 00:51:51.624 That's what it would be like if we were there doing the show that's what it would sound like. 00:51:52.644 --> 00:51:55.304 Tomato boosts in with 9,998. 00:51:55.304 --> 00:51:55.864 Cents woo, 00:51:58.382 --> 00:51:59.262 Mr. Tamato. 00:51:59.662 --> 00:52:05.502 I did appreciate the Red Hat coverage, though it left me feeling down. Their fault, not yours. 00:52:06.242 --> 00:52:08.282 And apparently uninspired to boost. 00:52:08.602 --> 00:52:11.382 You know, I was wondering, I kind of, I was telling the boys before the show, 00:52:11.462 --> 00:52:16.002 I kind of got a meh feeling watching the keynote too. It just sort of left me feeling a little down. 00:52:16.162 --> 00:52:16.562 Wow. 00:52:16.962 --> 00:52:20.282 I don't know why that was. It's nothing unusual about it. 00:52:20.422 --> 00:52:23.942 Well, we didn't get into the sort of like fog and laser treatment because we 00:52:23.942 --> 00:52:24.702 weren't there in person. 00:52:24.702 --> 00:52:28.742 Also, it's the, you know, the enterprise corporate AI stuff is the thing that 00:52:28.742 --> 00:52:32.562 appeals maybe the least to us right now. And that's what a lot of it was. 00:52:33.162 --> 00:52:37.502 The Mado goes on with, I use key pass and sync thing, and it works great for my needs. 00:52:37.722 --> 00:52:41.282 Love the Gnome Commander pick, by the way. It's a nice little bit of nostalgia 00:52:41.282 --> 00:52:45.982 remembering when Gnome initially shipped Midnight Commander as their file manager. 00:52:46.422 --> 00:52:50.022 Good callback. Good callback. I agree. Thanks, Tomato. Appreciate you. 00:52:50.022 --> 00:52:54.922 Your inner child boosts in with two thousand and two satoshis. 00:52:56.815 --> 00:53:01.735 Does 95% of this boost go to advertisement at the beginning of the show, Progressive? 00:53:01.995 --> 00:53:04.175 Oh, you got Progressive? I got Smokey the Bear. 00:53:04.415 --> 00:53:05.575 Yeah, the Smokey the Bear was great. 00:53:05.815 --> 00:53:06.795 I love the Smokey the Bear. 00:53:07.955 --> 00:53:12.395 I miss the YouTube live, even though I'm subscribed and belled. 00:53:12.495 --> 00:53:13.615 I don't know what that's about. 00:53:13.835 --> 00:53:18.475 I'd love for you guys to open with your sweet, sweet music like Twib does, 00:53:18.635 --> 00:53:23.075 and then say a quick ad to pay the bills. Then come back after that. 00:53:23.075 --> 00:53:28.195 We are uh so we because we don't have people actively buying the slots in the 00:53:28.195 --> 00:53:32.855 show right now we were experimenting with dynamic ads i say we're i'm still kind of on the fence on it 00:53:33.275 --> 00:53:36.275 we were able to work with a company that let us say no to a lot of categories 00:53:36.275 --> 00:53:40.095 which has been great block stuff and all of that we'll see because we're just 00:53:40.095 --> 00:53:44.795 hoping you know it's getting tight so we're just trying we'll try it out but 00:53:44.795 --> 00:53:49.195 uh when i get smoky the bear i like it i've not heard a progressive ad yet i'd 00:53:49.195 --> 00:53:52.695 say i only get an ad one out of two or three plays too it's interesting when 00:53:52.695 --> 00:53:54.995 it decides to play in the whole thing is. 00:53:55.075 --> 00:53:59.295 I think in theory we could change the insertion points. So like we could put 00:53:59.295 --> 00:54:04.275 it in, but then maybe we'd have to time it out per show and stuff, which would be doable. 00:54:04.995 --> 00:54:08.055 Or it's like it changes it for all of them or something. It's like, 00:54:08.135 --> 00:54:09.915 yes, you can change it, but then I think it might. 00:54:10.555 --> 00:54:13.915 But if we just had a place to bake it in, we could. Don't know. 00:54:14.675 --> 00:54:15.435 It's new to us. 00:54:15.515 --> 00:54:16.275 Yeah, it is new to us. 00:54:16.575 --> 00:54:19.415 Well, if it makes you feel better, they continue here. Feel free to put in as 00:54:19.415 --> 00:54:22.295 many ads as you need to pay JB's bills. 00:54:22.495 --> 00:54:25.495 All right five more, 00:54:27.535 --> 00:54:32.355 you wish Browns and Wing comes in with one two three four five sats, 00:54:36.830 --> 00:54:40.070 You said not to boost passwords here, but here's my luggage combo. 00:54:40.190 --> 00:54:43.210 Yeah, well, come on. We all use that. I also swap from OC. 00:54:44.410 --> 00:54:45.110 Open claw. 00:54:45.290 --> 00:54:49.690 Thank you, to Hermes. Way better. I'm running a dual 3090 with Llama CBP on 00:54:49.690 --> 00:54:51.650 NixOS. It is my first Nix box. 00:54:51.810 --> 00:54:54.170 I'm going to update the NVIDIA drivers. 00:54:54.510 --> 00:54:54.990 Yeah, it will. 00:54:55.090 --> 00:54:55.590 Yeah, it'll do it. 00:54:56.030 --> 00:55:01.230 Quint 3.6 27 billion parameter Q8 with Q8 cache is very good. 00:55:01.630 --> 00:55:04.890 I'm fully local setup with Search XNG. Yeah. 00:55:05.070 --> 00:55:06.110 Yeah. Yeah. 00:55:06.110 --> 00:55:10.630 As my primary search. And I'm using this for my memory. And they link us to that. 00:55:10.810 --> 00:55:12.750 I'm setting up mine for my wife's 00:55:12.750 --> 00:55:17.250 work. She does endless paperwork as data entry. Hermes is crushing it. 00:55:17.770 --> 00:55:22.830 Wow. Zero dependency sub-millisecond AI memory system for Hermes agents and everyone else. 00:55:23.170 --> 00:55:26.490 Nice. I know I tell you boys this all the time, but I think memory systems are 00:55:26.490 --> 00:55:29.310 going to be one of the very interesting development areas for agents. 00:55:29.530 --> 00:55:29.750 For sure. 00:55:29.950 --> 00:55:32.570 The better they are, the more they understand you, the less mistakes they make, 00:55:32.730 --> 00:55:36.430 the less tokens they're burning, all of it. So it's, I think, 00:55:36.430 --> 00:55:37.730 an interesting area of development. 00:55:38.350 --> 00:55:40.870 All right. Well, I really like hearing about different memory systems. 00:55:41.150 --> 00:55:42.370 Yeah. Keep those code boosted in. 00:55:42.370 --> 00:55:43.970 Sounds like an awesome implementation, too. 00:55:44.390 --> 00:55:48.250 Thanks, Bronzman. Exception boosts in with Robodux. 00:55:49.510 --> 00:55:54.030 Switched from OnePass to Bitwarden in 2023, syncing between six devices. 00:55:54.690 --> 00:56:00.410 Happy but hesitating to suggest it at work, as we already have a self-hosted SysPass behind a VPN. 00:56:00.650 --> 00:56:01.750 Hmm. Hmm. 00:56:02.030 --> 00:56:05.090 Yeah, I suppose that makes it even more additionally complicated. 00:56:05.210 --> 00:56:08.270 Question. Yeah, it does. It does. It does. 00:56:08.450 --> 00:56:09.290 Thanks for the report. 00:56:09.670 --> 00:56:14.570 Yeah. That is... BitCryptic comes in with 16,384. 00:56:16.803 --> 00:56:19.903 Sorry, Brantley. Hoping you guys might find our proposal of interest and maybe 00:56:19.903 --> 00:56:21.743 something you could share with fellow listeners. 00:56:22.263 --> 00:56:27.603 And it's MDF Markdown First, inspired by your recent discussion around agentic impact on web services. 00:56:27.963 --> 00:56:33.603 A proposal for the agent-readable web. The web was built for human eyes. 00:56:33.743 --> 00:56:36.963 AI agents are paying an enormous tax for that. We think there's a better way, 00:56:36.983 --> 00:56:38.123 and we've written the proposal. 00:56:39.903 --> 00:56:43.143 They request your HTML page. They receive a document full of navigation menus, 00:56:43.243 --> 00:56:47.603 JavaScript bundles. That's true. Cookie banners, all a bunch of crap they don't need. the HTML tax. 00:56:48.763 --> 00:56:52.603 The reference implementation is complete and live. MDF server is a self-hostable 00:56:52.603 --> 00:56:55.323 Docker image, deployable. There's a demo site. 00:56:56.823 --> 00:57:00.183 So what is it? They generate essentially a markdown version of your site? 00:57:00.203 --> 00:57:02.123 Is that what they're doing here? And then serving that up to the agent? 00:57:02.723 --> 00:57:06.223 Or asking that folks do. I think it might be more of like a spec or an idea 00:57:06.223 --> 00:57:10.743 for how to make a web that's more generated at being agent friendly. 00:57:10.943 --> 00:57:11.823 I like it. I mean, it looks... 00:57:11.823 --> 00:57:13.183 There's a lot in here. So I'm just... 00:57:13.183 --> 00:57:13.583 We'll take a look at it. 00:57:13.623 --> 00:57:13.943 We'll take a look at it. 00:57:13.943 --> 00:57:17.123 I mean, it might be more efficient to serve, really, when you think about it. 00:57:17.383 --> 00:57:20.783 Oh, yeah. For both ends. All right, Bradley, why don't you take the next one? 00:57:21.203 --> 00:57:23.703 Well, Bobby Pin boosted in 5,000 sats. 00:57:26.700 --> 00:57:30.740 I still sync around a key pass file like a caveman. If y'all have any better 00:57:30.740 --> 00:57:32.400 self-hosted solutions, I'm all ears. 00:57:33.100 --> 00:57:33.340 Okay. 00:57:33.680 --> 00:57:36.100 Hey, I'm not setting shade at key pass. 00:57:36.300 --> 00:57:38.020 Hey, I'm in that cave with you. 00:57:38.220 --> 00:57:41.820 The issue is it really breaks down for me on I'm adding something on mobile 00:57:41.820 --> 00:57:45.500 and then I go to desktop or vice versa. That's really got to be first class experience. 00:57:46.560 --> 00:57:49.080 Geononymous comes in with 4,018 sets. 00:57:51.400 --> 00:57:57.040 No message, just value. So I'll take Retro Gear 2. Retro Gear comes in with 5,151 sats. 00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:02.140 Jens, it's been a while. Bitwarden, self-host, been amazing for a couple of 00:58:02.140 --> 00:58:05.920 years. Linux router, just moved to NixOS as my router from OpenSense. Yes. 00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:12.200 Using Tectitium for DHCP and DNS on the same box. Just started playing out with Hermes. Wow. 00:58:12.380 --> 00:58:12.820 Nice. 00:58:13.300 --> 00:58:16.200 Have been using OpenCode for a couple of months. What a time we live in. 00:58:16.380 --> 00:58:19.620 Oh, unpowered system still running Pentium 2. Whoa. 00:58:20.380 --> 00:58:22.740 Pentium 2, 266 megahertz. 00:58:23.240 --> 00:58:25.260 Well, I guess the boost name is Retro Gear. 00:58:25.660 --> 00:58:28.720 That's true. With Windows 2003 server for my retro gaming PC, 00:58:29.040 --> 00:58:30.840 having a good old LAN with my mates. 00:58:31.100 --> 00:58:31.940 That is wonderful. 00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:32.620 Cheers from Australia. 00:58:33.160 --> 00:58:34.560 Thank you for the boost. 00:58:34.760 --> 00:58:35.060 Love that. 00:58:35.060 --> 00:58:35.340 Impressive. 00:58:35.340 --> 00:58:37.660 That is so dense. True. 00:58:37.820 --> 00:58:38.720 There's a lot going on. 00:58:38.740 --> 00:58:41.580 And I don't think he AI'd that. I think he wrote it like that. 00:58:41.640 --> 00:58:45.480 I think he did his own summarization there. A true hero among men. 00:58:46.680 --> 00:58:51.300 Woo. True Grits boosts in with 12,345 sets. 00:58:54.973 --> 00:58:57.853 I haven't really heard anything about the Bitwarden switch-up situation. 00:58:58.073 --> 00:59:00.933 I'll have to look into it, besides the CLI issue recently. 00:59:01.293 --> 00:59:05.493 I'm sticking with them for now. However, if I do bail, I'll probably switch 00:59:05.493 --> 00:59:07.593 to ProtonPass, since I already pay for them. 00:59:07.693 --> 00:59:08.533 Another ProtonPass. 00:59:08.673 --> 00:59:10.133 Might give KeyPass another go. 00:59:10.273 --> 00:59:10.513 Uh-huh. 00:59:10.833 --> 00:59:13.993 I think the Red Hat coverage issue is mostly a result of people's AI burn-out. 00:59:14.293 --> 00:59:17.073 People, including myself, are just tired of hearing about it constantly. 00:59:17.353 --> 00:59:20.133 Not saying you guys shouldn't cover it. You do a decent job, 00:59:20.173 --> 00:59:21.833 and then it's kind of cut off from there, unfortunately. 00:59:22.133 --> 00:59:26.633 Thank you, True Grits. Yeah, we try to walk that line. it's 00:59:26.633 --> 00:59:29.473 you know it's a it's it sucks that it's such 00:59:29.473 --> 00:59:34.073 a relevant topic for so long now because if you think about it it's been it's 00:59:34.073 --> 00:59:39.593 been the number one conversation in in tech since chat gpt launched and we actively 00:59:39.593 --> 00:59:43.833 fight against it getting on every week because it's just it's what everybody's 00:59:43.833 --> 00:59:46.773 and it's where all the financing is and everything it's just, 00:59:47.573 --> 00:59:52.053 it's uh like i know that long term it's going to make make more linux users 00:59:52.053 --> 00:59:54.653 and more free software users, but the ride there is an obnoxious one. 00:59:54.653 --> 00:59:57.713 It's going to be rough. We got to hang in there. 00:59:59.873 --> 01:00:03.753 Greg the lawyer is hanging in there with 10,302 sats. 01:00:07.004 --> 01:00:12.504 Great last episode, I had already looked into Hermes. You convinced me to make the switch, though. 01:00:12.824 --> 01:00:13.144 Nice. 01:00:13.324 --> 01:00:17.744 Really is a much nicer experience than the lobster. I'm spending much less time 01:00:17.744 --> 01:00:19.324 maintaining and more time doing. 01:00:19.924 --> 01:00:25.284 I set it loose documenting my home lab, and it's found things I didn't know were actually broken. 01:00:25.484 --> 01:00:26.524 They're very good at that. 01:00:26.764 --> 01:00:31.144 It also offers to set up regular cron jobs where that makes sense instead of 01:00:31.144 --> 01:00:32.604 burning tokens by default. 01:00:32.824 --> 01:00:36.624 I'm looking forward to trying it with some local models for basic tasks next. 01:00:37.004 --> 01:00:41.664 One of the things I've done recently is my agent data checks in on Home Assistant, 01:00:41.684 --> 01:00:47.044 and it generates me a report of all the devices that have less than 10% battery life. 01:00:47.084 --> 01:00:48.364 Oh, good idea. I love that. 01:00:48.504 --> 01:00:52.684 But the next step that it took me one day before I realized I need this is I 01:00:52.684 --> 01:00:58.004 have data do a quick attempt at figuring out what type of battery that device needs. 01:00:58.084 --> 01:01:00.784 So when I get the report, I know what kind of batteries. 01:01:01.344 --> 01:01:03.664 And I don't have to because what I always do with these sensors is like it's 01:01:03.664 --> 01:01:05.824 been a year. So I have to go open it up and be like, OK, what type of battery 01:01:05.824 --> 01:01:08.824 does this one take? because there's like three different lithium types these things take. 01:01:09.364 --> 01:01:12.044 And it's just so handy. Just that little bit of extra information, 01:01:12.044 --> 01:01:13.904 just go right on there. Okay, I got that one. I got that one. 01:01:13.944 --> 01:01:15.044 Oh, I need to order that one. Okay. 01:01:15.524 --> 01:01:16.704 You're just the tech for the bots. 01:01:17.364 --> 01:01:20.444 Pab came in with 6,666 sets. 01:01:21.704 --> 01:01:26.824 I recently landed a new job. Definitely a step up in my short career as a social science researcher. 01:01:27.004 --> 01:01:30.424 And honestly, this isn't the first time being a Linux nerd and a self-hoster 01:01:30.424 --> 01:01:32.824 has given me an edge over the competition. 01:01:33.204 --> 01:01:36.864 That skill set is in no small part thanks to listening to you guys. 01:01:37.024 --> 01:01:38.344 I'm forever grateful for real. 01:01:38.724 --> 01:01:41.464 Long live Jupiter Broadcasting. Thank you very much. 01:01:41.504 --> 01:01:42.084 And congratulations. 01:01:42.604 --> 01:01:44.604 I'm glad we could play a role in that. Truly. 01:01:46.404 --> 01:01:49.884 Turd Ferguson comes in with 17,076 sets. 01:01:52.926 --> 01:01:56.986 Good show, boys. Sending value your way. Also, not sure if you noticed, 01:01:57.146 --> 01:02:00.826 but RAM and disk prices are starting to drop. Still too expensive. 01:02:01.146 --> 01:02:03.446 Really? But I think the trend is our friend. 01:02:03.566 --> 01:02:03.966 Is that true? 01:02:04.226 --> 01:02:05.486 Somehow I don't believe this. 01:02:05.886 --> 01:02:06.926 Is that true? I'm not true. 01:02:07.366 --> 01:02:10.906 I'm going to look that up. Let's look up NVMe and Samsung, because boy, 01:02:11.006 --> 01:02:12.926 is my NVMe in a situation right now. 01:02:13.146 --> 01:02:13.726 Oh, yeah, right. 01:02:13.906 --> 01:02:17.566 So I'm on Camel Camel. Let's... Huh. 01:02:18.266 --> 01:02:19.166 Oh, wow. Really? 01:02:19.366 --> 01:02:23.146 Take a look at this. Take a look at this. a 2TB Western Digital Black, 01:02:23.146 --> 01:02:29.006 so it's not a Samsung, but still a great drive, 2TB NVMe Western Digital Black Gen 4 PCIe M.2. 01:02:29.926 --> 01:02:35.646 It is down. It is down from an all-time high of $420 to $299. 01:02:36.186 --> 01:02:37.266 That's more reasonable. 01:02:38.226 --> 01:02:44.626 Huh. Well, that's a good sign. Let's see what 32GB of RAM. I'm just curious. 01:02:44.846 --> 01:02:45.106 Yeah. 01:02:45.206 --> 01:02:52.066 32GB. Is it just disk? is it are we did we see the supply chain respond here 01:02:52.066 --> 01:02:56.346 what's going on here still not in stock for 32 gigs well. 01:02:56.346 --> 01:02:56.866 Why would you need that. 01:02:56.866 --> 01:02:59.946 So that ain't great do you think 64 gigs is in stock, 01:03:01.285 --> 01:03:05.145 Of course, this is according to Camel Camel. Oh, that still looks pretty expensive to me. 01:03:05.965 --> 01:03:09.845 Let's see here. Corsair, 64 gigs of RAM. Oh, it is down, but still very expensive. 01:03:10.065 --> 01:03:10.205 Yeah. 01:03:10.545 --> 01:03:17.485 So it's down from an all-time high of $927 to $850. It touched $757. 01:03:18.005 --> 01:03:18.405 What? 01:03:20.845 --> 01:03:25.565 Oh, in May. So it actually touched down to $757 in May and then popped back up to $850. 01:03:26.085 --> 01:03:30.745 That's a $100 difference. That's insane. That is positive. 01:03:31.525 --> 01:03:34.465 If you look at the three-month price trend, that is a positive price trend. 01:03:34.585 --> 01:03:36.845 Yeah, the data's a little less clear. 01:03:37.325 --> 01:03:40.425 I'm hopeful, but I hope. I'm going to go with turd. It looks like it's down, 01:03:40.485 --> 01:03:42.525 but I'm not buying in yet. 01:03:42.645 --> 01:03:47.705 We need about another 50% price, maybe 100%. Let's do it. 01:03:47.725 --> 01:03:51.085 Let's do 200%. Can we do 200%? I'm told that works. I'm told you can do that. 01:03:51.585 --> 01:03:53.265 I don't think that's how math works. No, I'm pretty sure it does. 01:03:53.265 --> 01:03:57.665 But KiwiBitcoinGuide boosted in 4,567 sats. 01:03:58.085 --> 01:03:58.445 Hmm. 01:04:01.034 --> 01:04:06.354 How does Nebula compare to Tailscale for the purpose of isolating a server running 01:04:06.354 --> 01:04:08.434 OpenClaw or Hermes in a network? 01:04:08.674 --> 01:04:13.754 I've built a plan to isolate a small server inside my LAN so that I can experiment with agents. 01:04:14.154 --> 01:04:20.354 One item on that plan was creating a tail net with only the device I want the agent to connect to. 01:04:20.694 --> 01:04:24.314 Can I do that with Nebula? How would that differ from using Tailscale? 01:04:24.954 --> 01:04:30.714 Can and I say do it should. So you can also have both. 01:04:31.034 --> 01:04:34.434 You could have Tailscale running on a system and then also run Nebula. 01:04:34.634 --> 01:04:36.854 Totally. They work just fine together. 01:04:36.874 --> 01:04:42.814 They do. So why I love Nebula for agentic work is because you don't need any 01:04:42.814 --> 01:04:45.394 company between you and what the agent can generate. 01:04:46.014 --> 01:04:50.074 There's no offing into some third-party provider that you have to deal with. 01:04:50.234 --> 01:04:51.114 You're just generating keys. 01:04:51.314 --> 01:04:52.134 It's all local. 01:04:52.394 --> 01:04:56.114 Last week, I decided I had a Nebula network between two hosts. 01:04:56.274 --> 01:04:59.174 And I was like, you know what? I want to add three more hosts to that. 01:04:59.174 --> 01:05:02.474 And I tasked the agent and it did everything. 01:05:03.254 --> 01:05:07.234 It generates the keys. It knows SSH, you know, logins. It moves things around for me. 01:05:07.314 --> 01:05:09.914 It adds them to the configs. It rebuilds them and they're talking. 01:05:10.314 --> 01:05:11.674 And it does it in three minutes. 01:05:12.439 --> 01:05:18.539 So, if you're leaning into an agentic workflow, Nebula is inherently just by default built for that. 01:05:19.039 --> 01:05:23.499 And so, you can stand up networks very easily just as a person or now agentically. 01:05:23.659 --> 01:05:27.179 And you don't need to have it like sign into a Google account or whatever single 01:05:27.179 --> 01:05:29.079 sign-on you're going to be using or anything like that. 01:05:29.799 --> 01:05:33.179 so it's I think it's great and then you know if you still want to use tail scale 01:05:33.179 --> 01:05:35.859 for like all your other stuff that you already have going you can't you can 01:05:35.859 --> 01:05:40.259 run both and then all your agentic stuff all your AI related stuff and all those 01:05:40.259 --> 01:05:43.919 services they only listen on say for example maybe they only listen on the nebula 01:05:43.919 --> 01:05:47.579 interface and so you're you don't have to worry about things on your tail net 01:05:47.579 --> 01:05:48.579 getting to it and stuff like that. 01:05:48.579 --> 01:05:51.739 As for if you do want to try to look at some of the comparisons you might just 01:05:51.739 --> 01:05:55.299 I'd say try to focus on I mean it depends on what you're doing to isolate But 01:05:55.299 --> 01:05:58.759 maybe look at, because a lot of it might come down to what you allow them to 01:05:58.759 --> 01:06:02.199 access on your network, whether that's directly or over the mesh. 01:06:02.419 --> 01:06:05.199 And so go take a look at the security primitives that are offered for, 01:06:05.279 --> 01:06:09.299 you know, what Nebula's got, whatever, any other systems that you need and see 01:06:09.299 --> 01:06:10.839 if they let you do what you try to do. 01:06:10.999 --> 01:06:15.699 And too, like with Hermes and with the CLAW, you can tell them to only bind 01:06:15.699 --> 01:06:17.039 to, like, say, the Nebula interface. 01:06:17.279 --> 01:06:19.819 So it's another way, just another level there. And so you could only, 01:06:20.019 --> 01:06:24.799 maybe you only get to the Hermes dashboard, the web UI on the Nebula interface and stuff like that. 01:06:25.019 --> 01:06:29.499 And I think it's a frickin' great solution, and once people figure out, and then, 01:06:30.569 --> 01:06:33.789 When you force multiply it with something like Nix, where you can declaratively 01:06:33.789 --> 01:06:37.469 deploy Nebula, and then you just push that Nix configuration out to your various 01:06:37.469 --> 01:06:38.909 machines and then rebuild them, and then they're... 01:06:38.909 --> 01:06:41.849 So good. And you could just sort of tag stuff and be like, you know, 01:06:41.929 --> 01:06:46.169 only give it access to stuff that has the, you know, in the AI group or... 01:06:46.169 --> 01:06:49.509 Do you think people are understanding what a big deal it is that you can declaratively 01:06:49.509 --> 01:06:53.629 deploy a mesh network across your host with no big tech? Like, 01:06:53.669 --> 01:06:55.349 I don't know if people have wrapped their head around the power. 01:06:55.349 --> 01:06:57.589 It's just like a substrate you get for free. 01:06:57.809 --> 01:06:59.709 Yes. that changes. 01:06:59.709 --> 01:07:03.929 How you architect the rest of it with persistent mesh aware identities. 01:07:03.929 --> 01:07:06.889 So i think it's it's at least worth looking into even 01:07:06.889 --> 01:07:09.549 if you ultimately do decide to go like with a tail scale route or 01:07:09.549 --> 01:07:12.729 a different way kiwi bitcoin guide but i think it's i think it is at least a 01:07:12.729 --> 01:07:16.049 quick glance and you know asking an lm to walk you through it if you have any 01:07:16.049 --> 01:07:20.549 questions i think that would work all right well that was a just a a really 01:07:20.549 --> 01:07:23.949 banger of a boost segment our podcast lifting us up from what we thought was 01:07:23.949 --> 01:07:27.189 going to be a rough week to just absolutely crushing it So thank you, 01:07:27.329 --> 01:07:28.249 everyone who streamed sats. 01:07:28.389 --> 01:07:33.089 16 of you streamed as you listened. You stacked 19,963 sats. 01:07:33.189 --> 01:07:34.389 Not too bad right there at all. 01:07:34.509 --> 01:07:36.869 Thank you very much. We do appreciate that. 01:07:39.549 --> 01:07:42.649 When you combine that with our baller boots from our podcast and everybody else 01:07:42.649 --> 01:07:49.949 who contributed, this episode stacked an extremely impressive 665,907 sats. 01:07:52.389 --> 01:07:55.449 That's a week you go home, you tell the wife about. That's what that is right 01:07:55.449 --> 01:07:56.849 there. Thank you very much. 01:07:57.569 --> 01:08:00.969 We're doing this show week after week. Even though nobody seems to want to buy 01:08:00.969 --> 01:08:04.649 commercial spots on it, the audience is keeping it going between our members and our boosters. 01:08:05.809 --> 01:08:06.889 We appreciate you. 01:08:13.192 --> 01:08:17.312 Now, if you want to get in on the boosting fun, we have links at the top of 01:08:17.312 --> 01:08:19.372 our show notes, kind of like the easiest path. 01:08:19.632 --> 01:08:23.152 It does take a little bit of adventuring, so we always do appreciate everybody helping us there. 01:08:23.752 --> 01:08:26.872 And if you want to just put your fee out on autopilot, we have jupiter.party 01:08:26.872 --> 01:08:31.892 for the whole network and linuxunplugged.com slash membership for just this here episode. 01:08:33.512 --> 01:08:36.852 And we're going to wrap it up, but we've got a couple of picks before we go. 01:08:36.852 --> 01:08:41.632 And our first one I think is just useful for anybody that's ever wanted to record 01:08:41.632 --> 01:08:44.792 a specific application audio stream on their desktop. 01:08:45.072 --> 01:08:48.232 I'm always trying to do this, so maybe I am a little biased here. 01:08:48.872 --> 01:08:53.332 But there's a time when maybe there's a game stream or whatever it might be. 01:08:53.412 --> 01:08:54.812 Maybe it's the show you want to have a backup copy. 01:08:54.812 --> 01:08:56.132 I'm recording our show right now. 01:08:56.132 --> 01:08:59.012 Oh, my goodness. Look at you using the pic. Very nice. 01:08:59.232 --> 01:09:03.572 It's called Record Apps. And it's a desktop application that allows you to record 01:09:03.572 --> 01:09:09.352 audio from a specific application on Linux built with Dino and supports pipe 01:09:09.352 --> 01:09:10.712 wire metadatas and whatnot. 01:09:10.712 --> 01:09:15.512 So it can actually get like application name, plain data stuff and gives you 01:09:15.512 --> 01:09:18.492 a nice UI to record just that application's audio. 01:09:20.055 --> 01:09:21.215 This is so great. 01:09:22.355 --> 01:09:26.395 It's purpose-built, super focused, and is available on Flathub. 01:09:26.535 --> 01:09:28.855 And it's mostly a thin UI over Pipewire. 01:09:28.935 --> 01:09:29.175 Yeah. 01:09:29.855 --> 01:09:32.295 Which is kind of great because there's not a lot of complexity to it. 01:09:32.455 --> 01:09:34.595 And it means it's going to probably just be rock solid. 01:09:34.855 --> 01:09:34.995 Yeah. 01:09:35.615 --> 01:09:40.315 Now, our next pick, not rock solid yet. The developer says it's very early days, 01:09:40.315 --> 01:09:42.895 but I think this is something that's got real potential. 01:09:43.195 --> 01:09:48.355 It's called OpenLogic, and it's a native local-first alternative for the Logitech 01:09:48.355 --> 01:09:51.415 Options Plus for Linux written in Rust. 01:09:52.515 --> 01:09:58.315 It lets you remap buttons, change your DPI settings, the smart shift over HID++ settings. 01:09:58.615 --> 01:10:00.575 No account required, no telemetry. 01:10:01.175 --> 01:10:04.115 Tons of features in the works as well. Not quite yet implemented, 01:10:04.295 --> 01:10:07.475 but lots of stuff on the roadmap. Real good roadmap, actually, for this project. 01:10:07.695 --> 01:10:11.895 There's a GUI, there's a CLI. Everything's local. Bindings live in a plain Toml file. 01:10:12.155 --> 01:10:13.835 I like having the GUI and the CLI. 01:10:14.095 --> 01:10:15.135 That's a nice touch. 01:10:15.295 --> 01:10:17.735 It is. And it's impressive what they've gotten done already. 01:10:18.115 --> 01:10:21.135 they're looking for community input and if you've got a Logitech mouse, 01:10:21.215 --> 01:10:24.995 don't most of us have one somewhere and you've wanted some of that Logitech 01:10:24.995 --> 01:10:28.315 stuff on Linux to maybe change some of the settings, some of the configuration. 01:10:28.755 --> 01:10:33.155 Warning, it seems like Mac is there today, Linux and Windows are coming soon, so. 01:10:33.335 --> 01:10:35.235 Yeah, yeah it's early days, it's early days. 01:10:35.475 --> 01:10:35.795 That's something to watch. 01:10:35.835 --> 01:10:37.935 Maybe it's a little early featured on the show, I don't know, 01:10:38.055 --> 01:10:41.995 but we've given a little love we might get some Linux use, so we'll see. 01:10:42.095 --> 01:10:46.875 And there's, you know, there's like a dev n.nix in there, so you gotta like to see that? 01:10:46.875 --> 01:10:50.935 Indeed, and it is Apache and MI2 licensed. It's called OpenLogy, 01:10:51.015 --> 01:10:52.875 and it is very early days. 01:10:53.075 --> 01:10:55.075 Sounds like their Linux build not ready yet, which is disappointing, 01:10:55.135 --> 01:10:58.255 but I think if we show them a little love, perhaps they'll be encouraged to 01:10:58.255 --> 01:11:00.895 create this for the Linux community, because we've all got some Logitech devices sitting around. 01:11:01.355 --> 01:11:05.555 I got one right here, and the situation, there are tools, we've talked about 01:11:05.555 --> 01:11:09.095 them before, that are available today for Linux, but not as comprehensive as this one. 01:11:09.375 --> 01:11:11.795 So the situation would be a lot better if we saw that come over. 01:11:11.975 --> 01:11:13.315 Looks like RecordApps is MIT. 01:11:13.675 --> 01:11:14.795 Yeah. Oh, did I not mention that? 01:11:14.795 --> 01:11:15.135 I don't know. 01:11:15.135 --> 01:11:16.875 I don't think I did mention that. Thank you. 01:11:17.905 --> 01:11:18.545 How do you like it? 01:11:19.205 --> 01:11:23.745 I like it. It's quick. It's easy. It uses Denno, which is kind of interesting. 01:11:23.905 --> 01:11:27.065 It has like a web view that does the graphics layer. 01:11:27.365 --> 01:11:29.965 And then under the hood, the Denno runtime is just basically calling out to 01:11:29.965 --> 01:11:33.505 Pipewire. So pretty lean, which is great. And the UI looked nice. 01:11:33.585 --> 01:11:35.265 I mean, it was more featureful than I expected. 01:11:36.085 --> 01:11:40.525 Yeah, the developer is also responsible for a couple of other neat apps that 01:11:40.525 --> 01:11:42.685 they've also published on FlatHub. 01:11:42.885 --> 01:11:47.285 I think his name is Bettis. And he's also made, if you're into this kind of 01:11:47.285 --> 01:11:51.445 thing, an app called Stimulator that keeps your monitor awake. 01:11:51.745 --> 01:11:54.785 Simple UI to just go in there and configure like when the monitor goes to sleep. 01:11:55.205 --> 01:12:00.385 And I think using the same toolkit as for record apps, the developer has also 01:12:00.385 --> 01:12:03.485 created a ping monitor, which, you know, there's a lot of these around, 01:12:03.605 --> 01:12:09.725 but it's very clean. It looks like maybe the same toolkit and a nice way to graph your ping stats. 01:12:09.785 --> 01:12:10.865 Oh, that does look nice. 01:12:11.605 --> 01:12:15.145 So they got a few apps over there on the old flat hub. They've been cranking them out. 01:12:15.485 --> 01:12:18.865 Isn't this a great example of a developer like scratching their own itch in 01:12:18.865 --> 01:12:23.585 the exact ways we were talking about during the conversation about, you know, anti-AI? 01:12:24.285 --> 01:12:24.965 Yeah, absolutely. 01:12:25.165 --> 01:12:27.985 This is the exact thing. So why wouldn't we want this? 01:12:28.565 --> 01:12:31.405 And I guess, you know, to my question to the audience... 01:12:33.403 --> 01:12:37.903 Maybe I don't care if it's Vibe-coded. I mean, it is TypeScript and HTML, 01:12:38.223 --> 01:12:41.583 and they love writing TypeScript. These machines love writing TypeScript. 01:12:41.583 --> 01:12:42.523 That's the giveaway, is it? 01:12:42.843 --> 01:12:46.303 No, it's just, you know, if you were going to have a list of things that could 01:12:46.303 --> 01:12:50.583 possibly make it LM-generated, TypeScript might be one of the data points. 01:12:51.403 --> 01:12:52.783 It's the M-dash in TypeScript. 01:12:53.003 --> 01:12:57.083 But I don't know if I care. But I think I might... 01:12:57.083 --> 01:13:01.063 I think this comes down to sort of, when do you care? When do we care? 01:13:01.203 --> 01:13:04.963 I think maybe I care more if it's an app. I've been using for years or a distro 01:13:04.963 --> 01:13:06.123 I've been using for years. 01:13:06.563 --> 01:13:13.183 Like, R-Sync is the perfect example where it's like, everybody uses R-Sync. It helps back up my data. 01:13:13.303 --> 01:13:15.943 Yeah, it's connected to a lot of important systems. 01:13:16.143 --> 01:13:19.743 A lot of people have scripts and automations and whatnot, backup jobs built 01:13:19.743 --> 01:13:22.443 around R-Sync. So it's just the perfect example. 01:13:22.623 --> 01:13:25.463 But a Pomodoro timer for your desktop is sort of... 01:13:26.003 --> 01:13:26.343 Yeah. 01:13:26.463 --> 01:13:27.623 You probably notice if it fails. 01:13:27.763 --> 01:13:33.643 Or, you know, if you're adopting R-Sync today, hey, you probably wouldn't care. 01:13:33.983 --> 01:13:39.543 If March, you know, or May or April, you started using R-Sync and this happened, 01:13:39.643 --> 01:13:42.643 it probably isn't a big, like, life-shaking deal for you. 01:13:43.283 --> 01:13:46.543 But if you've been using it for 10, 15 years, like some of us have, 01:13:47.243 --> 01:13:48.503 it is kind of a bigger deal. 01:13:48.523 --> 01:13:50.483 Rock-solid plumbing than you count on. 01:13:50.483 --> 01:13:53.063 I think, and I'd like to know what the audience thinks. Boost in and tell us. 01:13:53.223 --> 01:13:55.803 I think that could make for a good engaging boost segment next week. 01:13:56.143 --> 01:14:01.163 And tell us how you feel about AI-assisted code in the OSS projects or distributions that you depend on. 01:14:01.923 --> 01:14:05.963 If you feel sort of similar, I mean, it is new and something we're going to have to work through. 01:14:07.003 --> 01:14:11.603 Now, I will mention we are live. We can we can stream on a Tuesday and make 01:14:11.603 --> 01:14:13.563 it a Sunday using the power of Linux. 01:14:13.803 --> 01:14:17.643 So join us on a Tuesday on a Sunday at 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 p.m. Eastern. 01:14:21.308 --> 01:14:25.248 And we do have more data around the show that people could go get their hands on. Tell them about it. 01:14:25.568 --> 01:14:26.748 Cloud chapters. 01:14:26.888 --> 01:14:27.188 What? 01:14:27.508 --> 01:14:28.048 Yeah, that's right. 01:14:28.348 --> 01:14:29.668 Cloud chapters, you say? 01:14:29.828 --> 01:14:33.048 The magic of the cloud in your podcast app. 01:14:33.188 --> 01:14:36.448 Wow. No way. What about transcripts? 01:14:36.548 --> 01:14:37.328 Why would you want that? 01:14:37.488 --> 01:14:39.708 Yeah, you probably wouldn't. I wouldn't grab those. 01:14:39.808 --> 01:14:46.648 No, definitely not. Not SRT or VTT. And the VTT definitely doesn't have your name attached to it. 01:14:46.648 --> 01:14:47.628 No, absolutely not. 01:14:48.508 --> 01:14:49.348 Don't even look. 01:14:49.348 --> 01:14:52.228 To what we talked about and more over at linuxunplugged.com. 01:14:52.368 --> 01:14:56.908 This is episode 669, so it's slash 669, including our contact page, 01:14:57.028 --> 01:14:59.028 our mumble room info, and our matrix info. 01:14:59.208 --> 01:15:01.668 We'd love to have you join us in one of those during a live show. 01:15:02.008 --> 01:15:04.688 Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Your Unplugged Program. 01:15:04.908 --> 01:15:08.068 We'll see you back here next Tuesday. You know it, as in Sunday.