Chris: Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris.
Wes: My name is Wes.
Brent: And my name is Brent.
Chris: Hello, gentlemen. Coming up
Chris: on the show this week, open source had a typical week filled with drama.
Chris: Flathub tightened the gates, Gnome Circle put AI Slop on notice,
Chris: and R-Sync somehow became a battleground.
Chris: We'll round it all up and then give you our take, and then we'll round it out
Chris: with some very nice boosts, some very positive picks, and a lot more.
Chris: So before we get any further, let's say time-appropriate greetings to our sole
Chris: virtual lug contributor this week. Hello, Otterbrain.
Chris: Hello. We also have some folks up there in the quiet listening.
Chris: It's nice to have some folks in the live chat, too. Nice to have you on board for the show today.
Chris: And thank you for being there. We have details about our Mumble Room up on our
Chris: website if you want to join that.
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Brent: It has been a spicy week in open-source AI land.
Brent: Flathub tightened the rules, Gnome Circle put AI slop on notice,
Brent: and rsync-saha became the battleground for whether AI-assisted code is genius or a garbage fire.
Brent: And that's the weird part because while some projects are slamming the brakes,
Brent: others are using these tools to find real bugs, land real fixes,
Brent: and make maintainers just a little bit more dangerous.
Brent: So let's start with rsync.
Chris: Let's start with R-Sync indeed, because I think this was the one that put it
Chris: over the top for us this week. We said we want to talk about this.
Chris: I think we have something to add here.
Chris: Everybody knows the R-Sync project. I think it's an example of one of these beloved tools.
Chris: And this is an example of AI-assisted coding coming to the tool that you use.
Chris: And the headline is that the original creator of R-Sync came back after 18 years
Chris: earlier this year and started triaging.
Wes: I think technically 2024, but they hadn't done much work until this year.
Wes: They really started picking things up.
Chris: Right. Like April and March is really when the patches started coming in.
Chris: And they did so with Claude's assistant, identifying several security vulnerabilities,
Chris: but also in the process of these major rewrites of the syscall layer,
Chris: seemed to introduce several regressions.
Chris: And there has been a massive backlash to regressions being introduced to rsync,
Chris: and accusations of AI slop.
Chris: The R-Sing founder has lost touch with reality. I mean, I think this thing really
Chris: kicked off with a post on Mastodon that...
Chris: Posted by they always Jeremiah Fletheaven. How do you suppose you say that last
Chris: one? I'm sure a field haven. Thank you. I cannot read it from here.
Chris: Jeremiah wrote. So my systems recently updated to our sink 3.4.3.
Chris: And as soon as that happened, my backup system, which does incremental backups
Chris: using multiple dash compare destination equals arguments, started to fail on
Chris: anything but a full backup reverting to our sink 3.4.1.
Chris: And now it works. So I go look at the source in GitHub to see what might have
Chris: changed, because there doesn't seem to be anything relevant in the changelog.
Chris: Since 3.4.1, 36 commits by Tridge and Claude. Oh, for F's sake.
Wes: And that was on May 28th.
Chris: And so since then, a firestorm of criticism have kicked off.
Chris: And poll requests against the projects, people saying they're going to fork rsync.
Wes: Yeah, we have seen at least a few sort of forks or alternatives pop up already.
Chris: So let's break down what's really going on here, because I think the headline
Chris: noise is distracting from probably the pattern that is actually just there in the commits.
Chris: And Wes did a deep dive. We put some stuff together, and I think the story is
Chris: a lot more understandable than it's currently being interpreted online.
Chris: And I think this is maybe where we can add some value.
Chris: So Tridge is the original creator of R-Sync, took about an 18-year hiatus,
Chris: seems to have recently discovered AI-assisted tools, and begun going through
Chris: the code base, triaging bugs and
Chris: security issues that may have potentially been there for quite a while.
Chris: And it looks like when you go through them, there was maybe a total of 77 issues that were worked on.
Chris: And of those 77 issues, we've seen some PRs come in, maybe a total of nine regressions out of the 77.
Wes: Yeah, something like that. I mean, these are all like a static snapshot of when
Wes: I was kind of looking at the data.
Chris: Of course. That gives you an idea of the volume, right? We're looking at maybe
Chris: 77 PRs that were worked on and maybe nine regression issues.
Wes: Yeah, and it's, so it's like, you know, he started maintaining things.
Wes: Interestingly, Trich is also,
Wes: I guess, was involved in reverse engineering BitKeeper back in the day.
Wes: That ended up being why Linux needed to start using Git, if we remember that story from long ago.
Wes: So a long history in open source and being involved with things.
Wes: And so it takes over in 2024, doesn't really touch things much,
Wes: does do some small things here and there, starts picking up in 2025, 2026.
Wes: but is just doing work by hand. And actually, a lot of the stuff,
Wes: like secure relative open, which is involved, which is like a real implementation
Wes: of doing open in a better way inside the code base, which is involved with some of the breakage.
Wes: Some of this, a lot of the actual like fixes and redesigns happen before any
Wes: of the clod commits show up.
Wes: Sort of like over a 22-month period kind of slow pecking at it.
Chris: I mean, that doesn't surprise me. He's clearly a very talented developer and
Chris: has been for many, many, many years.
Wes: And then...
Wes: More recently, we see this big uptake in velocity in the codebase and a lot
Wes: of commits co-authored by Claude.
Wes: And then when you look at it, a lot of it is kind of applying the patterns that
Wes: he had seemingly found by himself in the era before, or at least before we start
Wes: seeing the co-authored commits,
Wes: and then using Claude to go apply that across the codebase, as well as do a
Wes: bunch of sort of like other tests and docs and just sort of like that kind of fix.
Wes: So if you look at the commits so far, it's not like Claude is doing a big structural
Wes: rewrite of the codebase.
Chris: From scratch.
Wes: It's sort of applying some patterns, doing security fixes, responding to CVEs.
Wes: Because there's also like six CVEs that have kind of come up in our sync through
Wes: this time. And that's been some of the work that's been happening as well.
Chris: Yeah, I have to imagine they're probably getting more of those. Right.
Wes: And that's where, like, there's a few, like, one story could be,
Wes: oh, gosh, you know, maintainer starts using AI. The project's going to slop.
Wes: You know, we can't, what's happening? Just that whole thing.
Wes: it can also be partly that like here's a person
Wes: who hasn't maintained this code base for most of its
Wes: existence he's created it and used it maintained
Wes: it for the first part and then handed it off to the the main
Wes: maintainer for most of that time uh who's now
Wes: getting more involved and wanting to do more releases and sort of the both the
Wes: development speed and the release cadence here is picking up and then i think
Wes: there's probably some very reasonable questions you can ask about like is that
Wes: being communicated what are the expectations of the users right there's like
Wes: a lot of sort of regular open source project maintainership and maintenance questions that apply.
Wes: And then on the other side of all that, there's also the question from the CVEs.
Wes: One of the forks is sort of a minimal implementation of R-Sync's protocol in Go.
Wes: And the point from that author is some of this is even just like,
Wes: it brings up this issue of like, should we even be depending on R-Sync and C
Wes: in this era when we know that like these six CVEs that kind of brought up a
Wes: lot of these, some of these issues wouldn't even have occurred in a language like Go or Rust.
Chris: Okay.
Wes: So there's a lot of things you could miss if you just focus on the clod co-committed part.
Chris: Okay. So he finds the bugs themselves with a code audit. Then he designs a fix
Chris: that he implements using clod code.
Chris: And he tags everything and transparently discloses every commit that was used with clod code.
Wes: As far as we know. I mean, you know, we can't really tell.
Chris: I suppose, yeah.
Wes: But it seems like the intention is to be transparent. At least he has opted into using that.
Chris: And so we did get, I mean, there were security fixes that happened here,
Chris: but we also got regressions introduced at the same time.
Wes: Yeah. And that's pretty normal.
Chris: That's a pretty standard thing to happen in software development.
Wes: And it's totally fair to be like, this regression caused me issues and pain
Wes: and it's upset and you can have broken trust around, I expected you to have
Wes: better QA before the ship. Those are all fine.
Chris: Well, some of these things are like, it broke on Darwin, right?
Chris: A specific thing broke on Mac OS.
Wes: There is also, it's worth trying to look into, like, what is the actual breakage
Wes: and how widespread and is it an edge case or is it a major thing that you should have had better?
Chris: Well, and then there's the fact that a lot of distros gate the releases,
Chris: so it's not like everybody is just running off of upstream R-sync point releases either.
Chris: So the actual distribution of this, you've got to be pretty close to the faucet
Chris: for this to even impact you.
Wes: Right. And you also then need to not have a way that you can roll back easily.
Chris: Right. So, I mean, these are some, I think, of the ground rules to understand
Chris: with this issue. Now, did the regressions actually get introduced?
Chris: Yes, but I would argue that when you're looking at the type of work that was
Chris: being done, you're essentially raising the walls on what were lower standards
Chris: 18 years ago for syscall securities and things like that.
Chris: You're improving the internal security of rsync, and that's always going to
Chris: cause breakage, even if you're hand-coding that, especially for that type of
Chris: stuff and an 18-year-old project like that.
Chris: So I think it's really unfortunate that they've really turned on Tridge because
Chris: I think it's really great to see that he's back and that he's contributing again.
Wes: It does seem to be addressing the regressions as well. I do think there's maybe
Wes: a question there of I don't know if I've seen any sort of particular response to all of this.
Wes: And we can ask if that's owed or not. That's a separate question.
Wes: But I think there are maybe questions of what could you do differently if you
Wes: are going to be doing more maintenance, more active changes,
Wes: changing how the project is maintained.
Chris: Let's talk about that for a second. Because I think one of the things I noticed
Chris: is just a lot of dropping of code, just a lot of code, a lot of changes all
Chris: at once across a broad variety of things.
Wes: And for a project that has been quite stable, it's kind of faded into background
Wes: infrastructure. You don't really, besides maybe you filed an issue for some
Wes: weird little case for your particular system or an improvement or a dock update.
Wes: You don't really think of R-Sync as something that's constantly changing or
Wes: you're pulling down lots of new.
Chris: Well, for example, Debian stable ships R-Sync from 2022.
Chris: So a lot of people that are using Debian-based distributions are on a massively
Chris: older version. So they're never going to see this. So that is true.
Chris: That's just the reality of it. I think, and the irony of somebody forks it,
Chris: they're going to vibe code it, too.
Wes: That's the other question is, so like one of the forks, I think I have a link
Wes: in here, is basically just a fork of the project before the first sort of obviously
Wes: co-authored with Claude commit.
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: And that's fine, but we kind of functionally already have that in anywhere that
Wes: has a fork of the repo already, right?
Wes: You're just rolling back the head pointer effectively. And that's fine, whatever.
Wes: You get that with stable distributions kind of already. And there are some discussions
Wes: in like the WMA list of, aren't they going to need to do anything about this?
Wes: And I guess we'll see where that goes.
Chris: When we get to the comments of the Zig creator about Zig's policy on AI,
Chris: I think it's going to underscore a point that I want to make.
Chris: But the reality I think we're about to face,
Chris: And I don't know if we're there yet because I'm no developer,
Chris: but it feels like we're getting pretty damn close is we're about to cross a
Chris: threshold or we have already crossed a threshold where the average one shot
Chris: LLM basic project code is going to be better than a beginner developer.
Chris: And it's going to be a better product than an amateur. And I don't know if it's
Chris: there yet, but it will be because these things just keep improving.
Chris: And they're improving at a pace that is very impressive because they can just keep training.
Chris: And some of these shops like Anthropic and OpenAI are very, very intent on making
Chris: it great at software development.
Chris: And they're very focused as part of their business revenue strategy on their
Chris: Cloud Code and Codex projects, respectively.
Chris: And I think we are entering this era of either it's about to be there or it
Chris: is there where it's going to generate better code than a lot of amateurs.
Chris: And when we get there, we're just going to discover all of these issues that
Chris: we have never discovered before. And it's going to happen every single week for multiple projects.
Chris: And people cannot get the pitchforks out and go after developer for using AI to try to fix this.
Chris: Because next year, these things are going to be even better.
Chris: And the year after that, they're going to be even better programmers.
Chris: and it does seem conceivable at some point they will exceed most proficient
Chris: developers to some capacity.
Chris: I don't know when and how, but it seems possible. And when it does,
Chris: it's likely going to find even more issues in our code. And this problem only accelerates.
Wes: I think the other part, the implication of that is, okay, maybe at the start,
Wes: the co-authored was maybe a hint at, oh, the quality might not be great unless
Wes: there was real editing and review here.
Wes: but that becomes much less of an actual reliable signal it was never a great
Wes: signal if I'm honest but it becomes even less of a useful signal down the line
Wes: what I was going to say before is just the real test of a fork is not can you
Wes: freeze the code base it's can you actually continue to maintain it and offer
Wes: real things and have your own stability and yeah,
Wes: So that's where like a frozen fork of our sink is not that interesting to me
Wes: necessarily. If it can actually be maintained, okay, maybe there's something there.
Wes: A go one or a version in non-C language, that starts a more legitimate conversation
Wes: for totally structural reasons.
Chris: I mean, are we just not talking about the fact that there are six CVEs here
Chris: that are being addressed? Like those are real bugs. And if you just fork off
Chris: of that, you're going to have these six CVEs.
Wes: You have to go keep up with all the, yeah. And there's going to be more CVEs found to your point.
Chris: Like we have to fix this stuff. And it's, yeah, it's going to get worse.
Chris: And the pitchforks really should just be put down and people should just get
Chris: to work and have some empathy for these developers who are going to have to
Chris: go through this transition.
Chris: Now, Flathub is taking a no LLM policy, and it's somewhere more in a middle ground here.
Chris: They say we have updated Flathub's LLM policy to explicitly disallow AI usage
Chris: for both the submission process and applications being submitted.
Chris: The number of, they'll go on to say later, the number of unpleasant interactions
Chris: that I have had with entitled submitters acting as if they were bestowing their
Chris: brilliant software upon us idiots who are rejecting it went through the roof
Chris: in the last month. I'm tired.
Chris: As always, we will not be applying this retroactively. So any vibe coded apps
Chris: which were already published will remain available.
Chris: So Flathub is introducing a no LLM policy here.
Chris: And when you go to the GitHub, you can kind of see the language of the policy
Chris: and the changes they've made. And there's a question and an answer, sort of as a follow-up.
Chris: The question goes, so does this mean any application developed with AI tools,
Chris: even things like Editor Autocomplete, are not allowed to be submitted?
Chris: And the individual from Latub responds, unlikely to be considered a blocker
Chris: unless you literally tabbed your entire way through Autocomplete.
Chris: So we have a new Flathub policy here that's not super rigid,
Chris: but it is pretty intense. No LLM-generated applications.
Chris: I think no LLM-generated descriptions is fair enough for a publishing platform like Flathub.
Wes: Sure, reasonable, yeah.
Chris: So I think that I can agree with them on.
Wes: I do think all of these face the same essential problem of if it's a good description,
Wes: is it disqualified because it has an MDash and you associate that with LLMs,
Wes: even if it's correct grammar and reads well?
Chris: I know, I miss losing the MDash.
Wes: Does it matter if it was generated and then I edited it and I totally approved
Wes: the entire thing? I said, yes, this sounds like what I would have written,
Wes: except with slightly better grammar.
Brent: Mm hmm.
Wes: None of the hard questions are addressed by this whatsoever,
Wes: in my view, which seems like a worse wording of what they had before.
Wes: And probably in practice, a lot of it will be fine, right? I think it's stern
Wes: language that will probably be somewhat lightly enforced and is probably meant
Wes: to attack the worst cases of, like,
Wes: just slop that is trying to throw it over the wall and is not being cared for
Wes: or maintained or really represented by a human or, you know,
Wes: anything like any of those other things that you might want in terms of a maintainer
Wes: relationship with a platform.
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: And that I understand.
Chris: Yeah, when you worst case it, like, I totally agree. Like, something that's
Chris: just, like, generating slop up onto somebody's GitHub, they're not even reviewing
Chris: it, and then they're just auto-submitting that to Flathub and generate, like, I can get that.
Chris: And I could see they could just get inundated with that, too,
Chris: right? Especially because you could just almost automate the entire process.
Wes: But at least when I first tried it, too, it seems like it sort of then also
Wes: privileges proprietary software, because you don't know. You're not even trying to audit that.
Chris: That's a really good point. That's a really good point. How does this strike
Chris: you, this decision, Brent?
Brent: It's a rough one i can try to see it from a couple different
Brent: perspectives right like some people might now feel quite
Brent: empowered to be able to create software
Brent: they could never create before and let's say you create some niche piece of
Brent: software you're like wow i've always wanted this now i can actually make it
Brent: and i know there's a tiny niche of other people who would love
Brent: to use this as well how do i distribute it flat hub
Brent: sounds amazing uh but i could see it
Brent: from the developers perspectives and the maintainers as well as like
Brent: well how many of these one-off pieces
Brent: of software do we accept and who you know the whole chain of trust goes into
Brent: question as well and these are i don't know it's gonna it's gonna be a long
Brent: time of asking these questions and projects making these kind of decisions just
Brent: to try to tread some water i i imagine i.
Chris: I wonder too where if the line gets fuzzy if say you submit like we're gonna
Chris: have a pick today that that just rides entirely on top of.
Brent: Pipewire.
Chris: I mean, it's a front end of Pipewire. The developer's done some work,
Chris: but the lift is being done by Pipewire. And...
Chris: It could be that the features it's using in Pipewire have been AI-assisted in development.
Chris: And so what if you submit an app to Flathub that is not itself AI-generated,
Chris: but depends entirely on AI-generated code elsewhere in the ecosystem and elsewhere in the stack?
Chris: I guess that's allowed?
Brent: These are hard questions. I don't know.
Chris: It's, yeah. And here's where I get a little concerned, just it is what it is,
Chris: but the Linux desktop isn't known
Chris: for its incredibly rich, bespoke desktop application ecosystem, right?
Chris: And we've been getting there, but this is going to tap the brakes on it.
Chris: And it is what it is. I'm not making a moral decision here, but the reality will be...
Chris: It won't be but a year before Microsoft and Apple and Google and Amazon and
Chris: Samsung and all the others in their various app store platforms are going to
Chris: spotlight applications that have been vibe coded using their tooling.
Chris: Right. If somebody shows up at WWDC using a AI assisted generated app from Xcode
Chris: and it's a good app, Apple is going to spotlight that. Right.
Chris: If somebody uses Copilot to create something and it goes into the Microsoft
Chris: store and it sells, they're going to put it up on a banner and et cetera.
Chris: All these platforms will do that that offer these tools and they're going to
Chris: embrace it as an avenue for people to bring software over and they're going
Chris: to spotlight it while we shun it.
Chris: And then the irony is, is we're the ones that are application ecosystem poor.
Chris: And probably one of the best shots we have, and we've already seen it,
Chris: they've got Creative Cloud working on Linux, is using AI-assisted tooling to
Chris: port over and get things working on Linux that never ran before.
Chris: I mean, that's how we got Photoshop recently, the current version of Photoshop working.
Wes: There's also, I think, like Brent was totally on point, like exactly kind of
Wes: the apps Brent was describing there. are the apps we tend to find and highlight on the show.
Wes: And there's always great little tiny things. That's like kind of what I go to.
Wes: I mean, yes, FlatHub can get you Spotify, you know, or whatever those two.
Wes: But that's what I like about it. That's why we kind of use it to try to find interesting new apps.
Wes: And a lot of those apps are more about executing the particular idea than they
Wes: are about beautiful GTK code.
Chris: Well, and that's just it. Because we don't shame an amateur developer with one
Chris: of their first projects is open source code and they put it out there and it's
Chris: garbage filled with security issues.
Chris: You know, as a community, we'll mentor them. We'll work with them if it's a
Chris: project that's useful and people will contribute patches.
Chris: But we're not willing to do it in this case, even if it's something that's useful.
Chris: Like, well, OK, if it's slop, make it better.
Chris: Shut up and make it better. Like, that's the solution here, because we have
Chris: more tools than we've ever had before.
Chris: That, to me, seems to be the solution. But don't do it in Zig.
Chris: Zig has a no AI policy. And the Zig creator was on the JetBrains podcast recently.
Chris: And I think his name is Andrew, right? The creator of Zig?
Wes: I believe so.
Chris: And he is, Zig's kind of known. Yeah, Andrew Kelly. Zig's kind of known for
Chris: having a no LLM, no AI policy.
Chris: And so the interviewer from JetBrains asked him, you know, why is.
Wes: And just to be clear, that's for the Zig, like maintaining the Zig language
Wes: itself. Not using it to make projects, whatever. That's all fine.
Chris: Yeah, they have no control over that. But if you want to contribute to the Zig
Chris: code base for Zig itself, they have a hard no LLM, no AI policy.
Chris: and they will reject it out of hand, even if it's like a critical security fix.
Chris: If they smell a whiff of LLM, they'll reject it out of hand.
Chris: And so Andrew was on the JetBrains podcast and he was asked why Zig is denying
Chris: all LLM-generated code. So I thought we'd take a listen.
Clips: The first reason is just that those kinds of contributions are invariably garbage.
Clips: People are sending us contributions that have no value whatsoever.
Clips: However, not only that, they have negative value because they take review time
Clips: away from the team, which is very limited.
Clips: We have over 200 pull requests sitting open right now, and those are all waiting for review.
Clips: And we try to be on top of it as much as possible.
Clips: When you have a small number of people in the dev team and you have a large
Clips: number of contributors, this is always the problem is this bottleneck of review time.
Clips: So, when we get these slop contributions, they take our review time and then
Clips: after a few reviews, we realize they have no clue what they're doing.
Clips: They're just pasting what we say back to the chat and then laundering the chat
Clips: back to pretend that they're not using chat but we can still tell.
Clips: And then at some point, we realize this is never going to be a good quality
Clips: because they have no idea what they're doing.
Clips: And so now we wasted everybody's time. All those other people who are waiting
Clips: patiently, they didn't get a review and the code never gets merged. It's worthless.
Clips: We like to call it contributor poker. So,
Clips: The main point of doing code reviews and having contributions,
Clips: instead of just doing all the work ourselves, is mentorship.
Clips: The whole point is that a contributor can become a core team member eventually,
Clips: or they can become a more valuable contributor.
Chris: Okay, I'm pausing here because I want you to remember that he says one of the
Chris: core focuses of Zig is to be a platform people can learn to develop on.
Chris: It can be a starting language they can learn to develop and become a ZIG contributor over time.
Clips: A core team member, eventually, or they can become a more valuable contributor.
Clips: And this will help the project because we'll have more people who can contribute to ZIG skillfully.
Clips: And it will help their resume because they can be a better systems programmer
Clips: and they can take those skills elsewhere. The idea of contributor poker is that we have limited time.
Clips: So, we want to notice, okay, who can we invest our time in to help them become
Clips: better programmers, better contributors for the project?
Clips: And who is maybe a drive-by contributor? They're going to send something,
Clips: they're going to go away.
Clips: Less valuable to invest in them.
Clips: And so, people who are using AI, they're always in the second category.
Clips: It's not worth it to invest in them. They're not learning anything.
Clips: They're going to join the core team later. Not a chance.
Clips: For us, this policy just makes sense because.
Clips: The Zig project, it's also an education project. That's part of our mission
Clips: statement, is we're providing guidance and education to students.
Clips: And so we're all trying to learn, we're all trying to get better at programming.
Clips: And so people who are sending AI pull requests, these people are not helping this goal.
Clips: And in fact, I think that they're detracting from this goal.
Clips: So for our project, I think that the strict no AI policy, it's an appropriate policy.
Clips: You know, If I tried to say, oh, only good AI PRs can come in,
Clips: now I have to be the judge of that, whereas if it's none whatsoever,
Clips: then it's a very easy policy to enforce.
Wes: That does not add up, I don't think.
Chris: I agree.
Wes: You're already in the judge of what's AI or not. You're just changing from what's
Wes: good, which is already the metric you wanted to be using, to now you're an expert
Wes: on hunting for AI smells.
Wes: And then you just turn the folks, like now it's just a test of,
Wes: can I write good zig or not, and then just not tell you I used AI to help me
Wes: with looking up the stuff in the docs.
Chris: Right, you turn it into a game of not getting detected.
Wes: Yes. And you punish the honest people.
Chris: Well, and what he said right there, too, was that they want to be appealing
Chris: to people that are learning to code.
Chris: Well, people that are learning to code, they're going to be the most inclined
Chris: to use some of this assisted tooling.
Brent: 100%.
Chris: So there's a bit of a dichotomy there. So the other thing that's a bit of a
Chris: dichotomy for them, a chicken and the eggs, or maybe a catch-22 would be the better analogy.
Chris: Zig is MIT licensed.
Chris: So that means it's totally legitimate for the big tech industry to use Zig to train AI.
Chris: And so Andrew was asked how he feels about big tech being able to train on Zig
Chris: since he has such an anti-LLM AI policy.
Clips: Ironic, isn't it? Personally, I have no issue with this.
Clips: I really firmly believe in the no strings attached gift that Zig is to the world.
Clips: You know, if someone wants to use Zig for AI training, great, I don't care.
Clips: That's fine. The fact that these companies are doing things that I don't like,
Clips: I don't like that they're doing it, but it doesn't bother me that they're using
Clips: zig i think that the more that zig
Clips: is being used it just shows that zig is valuable that's the way i see it.
Chris: Okay now that seems to be a pretty balanced
Chris: take i like that take and you know it's probably the best one you have you can
Chris: have when you have that licensing but uh there's a i think maybe the biggest
Chris: tell in this last question because this seems to be a common thread that i've
Chris: come across a lot andrew was asked if he has tried any ai assisted or vibe coding tools i.
Clips: I i love computers and I love learning about what people are doing with them. And there's a.
Clips: A sense of mystery and magic that you can get from reading someone's explanation
Clips: of a project that they did that
Clips: took them a very long time and they had to learn lessons and they had to,
Clips: increase their skill as a programmer and as a user of computers in order to accomplish this goal.
Clips: And when you read a blog post like this, it's brilliant.
Clips: It captures the imagination, it makes you think about what you could do yourself,
Clips: it teaches you something, it connects you to them emotionally.
Clips: But I mean, on the other hand, we're seeing people say, oh, I tried this version
Clips: of Cloud or that version of OpenAI and it works surprisingly well.
Clips: I'm always hearing people say that AI code works surprisingly well.
Clips: But to me, this is not the bar that I want to hold software to.
Clips: The bar that I want to hold software to is uncompromising perfection.
Clips: You know, I don't want to be surprised by the absence of a bug.
Clips: That's a horrible quality bar to believe in.
Clips: So, I mean, it's just so many people saying, I don't know, I tried coding this app and it kind of works.
Clips: Okay. You know, it's just so uninspiring.
Clips: But have you tried Vype coding yourself? I did a call, I did a private call
Clips: with Richard Feldman, a friend of mine, and he showed me how to use Vibe Coding
Clips: with Zed and I tried it out.
Clips: And I thought that, I think that the technology is fundamentally interesting.
Clips: What really turns me off is the fact that it's centrally controlled by four
Clips: companies and they have total control over what it's doing.
Clips: They have total control over the models. I mean, it's.
Clips: I'm not going to go from using my own computer and my own electricity to do
Clips: my code in order to use closed source programming on someone else's computer through the network.
Clips: This is that I have to pay for monthly.
Clips: I mean, some people are paying $300 a month for this.
Clips: To me, this is an insane proposition.
Clips: I would never want to give up what I have in order to get,
Clips: the results of gen ai.
Chris: So a.
Wes: Lot to react to in there.
Chris: Yeah i thought so too um you know he wants software to be immaculate you know
Chris: the the absence of well i don't think it has a bug should not be the bar but
Chris: i think that's just sort of a straw man argument because the reality is most
Chris: software development is oh
Chris: my god it built and it's running i can't believe it's doing the thing so.
Wes: This is actually i think this part i do like the most is i think the,
Wes: something like a core language or like the core of
Wes: a database you want to strive for well and it's just the
Wes: area where writing the code was not the hardest
Wes: part it's almost all design and thought work versus building out the next crud
Wes: layer for your business or building a desktop app which a lot of it is like
Wes: you just have to write mechanical code yeah yeah and so i'm not saying the lms
Wes: wouldn't also be useful for what he's doing i'm not that's not my point i'm
Wes: more just saying there's different
Wes: you would the advantages and how you would use them are different,
Wes: And so that is, I think, the strongest part, and the rest of it kind of falls out.
Chris: So what was it you reacted to in there? What struck you in there?
Wes: Kind of like the rest of it, I guess. That part, I can kind of understand why
Wes: maybe you want to very carefully craft.
Chris: Yeah, from their project.
Wes: He mentions review, but it's like the whole thing here is review, right?
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: That's the question here, is to what extent do we have to and how closely and
Wes: what guardrails do we put on this code?
Wes: And so whether or not it is, because before we just didn't have any other way.
Wes: It was either humans wrote it or it didn't happen. And now we have this new way.
Wes: And so I think in the sense that that is essentially an argument for a very
Wes: high standard of review in the core of this thing, that's totally reasonable, right?
Wes: And it could be that all of the things that he's calling AI written don't meet
Wes: that. And then that's totally fine.
Wes: And that doesn't surprise me, right? Because he has a really high bar,
Wes: probably does take someone with some taste to be able to craft something that
Wes: really meets it in a way that maybe LLMs aren't great at right now.
Wes: That seems totally plausible.
Wes: It just seems like that maybe is what we could be talking about versus like
Wes: maybe there's a lot of stuff where like for one of our picks last night,
Wes: I left a vibe coding session building a flake for it because I can audit it at the end.
Wes: I don't need to be involved. I know how to read Nix. I can all test it and build it myself.
Chris: It's not particularly complicated.
Wes: Right.
Wes: But maybe I wouldn't want to do that for something that was going to be the
Wes: core of the business I was trying to build.
Chris: Right, right. Yeah, for sure. Brent, also what struck me is there's a common
Chris: thread generally when people have a negative opinion towards the tooling.
Wes: Also, just the glaring hole of, I mean, as a critique of proprietary platforms, hell yeah.
Chris: Yeah, yeah.
Wes: The big tech. Where is the mention of any of the open weight models?
Brent: Yeah.
Chris: And also, the reality is, is that it's a competitive marketplace.
Chris: So if, you know, Anthropic does something weird, you switch over.
Chris: If OpenAI does something weird, you switch over.
Chris: And then there is a touch of irony that he's on the JetBrains podcast because
Chris: you could make the same argument about commercial IDEs versus open source IDEs.
Chris: So there's a touch of irony there.
Wes: I mean, for there was a while where, like, you couldn't really be a professional
Wes: Java developer without having a JetBrains license.
Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I think it's a little ironic.
Chris: So, Brent, I don't know if you pick up on this comment thread,
Chris: but a lot of times it seems like the people that are pretty down on the tooling,
Chris: They seem to go through a process of trying it, and if they give it an honest
Chris: try, maybe they evolve it a little bit, then it starts solving a problem for
Chris: them, then they advance the tooling, and then they seem to get kind of more
Chris: and more impressed by it.
Chris: But he kind of took perhaps the worst introduction route, it sounds, possible.
Chris: He got like on a Zoom call with a buddy who showed him how to do it through the Zed editor.
Chris: And this is the creator of Zig. Like he showed him like the Fisher-Price version
Chris: of the tooling. What are your thoughts on that?
Brent: Well uh i understand the hesitation
Brent: from a lot of folks but to understand like a fundamentally new
Brent: technology like this you have to spend time with it and you
Brent: have to make mistakes with it you have
Brent: to like there's this iteration of how you think about
Brent: the tooling that just takes time
Brent: you can't get that in one zoom call of a buddy showing you how it works on his
Brent: computer right and i think you both would agree that our way of using these
Brent: tools for each of our workflows is like evolving every single week and only
Brent: through that do you get the perspectives,
Brent: of what it's even capable of and the nuance of where it's good and where it's
Brent: not good and the current status even of the landscape and so the common thread
Brent: you're you're mentioning is that that we so often see,
Brent: criticisms of the technology and like
Brent: really strong opinions from people who haven't really
Brent: spent the time to try to understand the technology and
Brent: to use it fundamentally in their work and so
Brent: it i don't know in i don't want to say invalidates but it it kind of takes away
Brent: from the argument slightly because uh there's a chance to understand the landscape
Brent: better and to have a more intelligible discussion about where it might be useful and not.
Chris: I would say the other thing that's sort of kind of a combo with that that can
Chris: be tricky is if your impression is from six to nine months ago.
Brent: It unfortunately.
Chris: Might be out of date now and that sucks because it's really hard to stay current.
Wes: There's also maybe a output sort of selection effect too if like a lot of what
Wes: you see is what people post in prs to your project that could be from who knows
Wes: what setup or sophistication.
Brent: Of Mm-hmm.
Wes: LLM?
Chris: Yeah. In fact, to kind of make a point, let's shift ahead a little bit here,
Chris: because I think this shows you this really bifurcation of the part of the community
Chris: that's really digging in and a part of the community that seems to be really accelerating.
Chris: And before we get there, I just want to say, as from like a macro market whatever perspective,
Chris: it is sort of fascinating to like let Zig, you know, rock its freak flag and
Chris: not take any AI or LLM-assisted coding. and let's see where that goes.
Chris: That could be really fun and interesting to watch over time and maybe become
Chris: something really unique and bespoke.
Wes: It's already a nice, kind of neat language in place.
Chris: So like, I don't, you know, whatever, whatever they want to do,
Chris: that's their decision. So I just wanted to make that point clear.
Chris: It's just, it is really useful to reflect on for a conversation of where this
Chris: is going because it's- Yeah.
Wes: That's our, we want to comment on the general mood, not necessarily any of their,
Wes: yeah, have ownership of your project.
Chris: They encapsulate what's going on with a lot of communities and projects right now.
Chris: Now, FWUPDI on the other end here had an audit done by Mythos and apparently
Chris: spotted a number of issues, 12,
Chris: And 12 issues were reported, but two were dismissed as not bugs,
Chris: and eight were ranked as low severity, and two were considered moderate.
Chris: But they went through and started cleaning things up, and so we now have FWEPD
Chris: 2.1.4, which brings many fixes for the bugs that were spotted by the LLMs.
Chris: Also includes firmware update support for the ARC Pro B65 and B70s.
Wes: As usual, getting good work done over there.
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: I did think it was kind of interesting here. Hughes says he was surprised over
Wes: Mythos finding so many issues in the code base.
Wes: Because it kind of sounds like it didn't find that much in one sense when you hear that list.
Wes: I think the standards for FWEPTA are probably pretty high, right?
Wes: It's like a newer code base. It's been very actively maintained.
Wes: He's an experienced professional developer.
Wes: So it may be interesting there.
Chris: Then we've also been seeing a stack, I guess is being put, of Linux networking fixes coming in.
Chris: And the pull requests seem to be using AI assistants. Linux networking maintainers
Chris: have seen a larger fix pull request than typical this late in the cycle.
Chris: Many fixes spurred by AI and LM coding agents, Michael Arbel writes.
Chris: Cloud Code and ChatGPT Codex are contributing to the increased patch flow,
Chris: helping developers find and submit more fixes across the networking stack.
Chris: The upside, of course, is much faster bug discovery, especially in something
Chris: that can be remote listening, and more code cleanup.
Chris: But the downside is there is more maintainer load and churn,
Chris: especially late in the Linux 7.1 cycle.
Wes: And we do know that they don't love late cycle changes.
Chris: Right. And then GitHub Copilot of all of them and CloudCode helped with numerous
Chris: graphics and Wi-Fi Linux driver issues in just the last week.
Chris: GitHub Copilot and CloudCode helped generate and co-author other large batches
Chris: of Linux kernel fixes during the 7.1 RC5 cycle.
Chris: AI-assisted fixes touched a wide spread of kernel areas, including the Intel
Chris: Z, Raspberry Pi Video, AMD Display Code, SMB, NetFilter, SysFS,
Chris: IO Ring, Bluetooth, and more.
Chris: The kernel is also using disclosure norms like assisted by AI tags,
Chris: making it easier to track where AI has helped while keeping the human batch process visible.
Wes: Yeah, that's going to be interesting to watch over time.
Chris: Yeah. So the humans are still involved. They can see which ones are committed
Chris: by AI and they're accepting them.
Chris: And we're seeing a high velocity of fixes in Wi-Fi drivers and in graphics drivers.
Chris: In the networking stack in general, there's also been file system fixes that have landed recently.
Wes: See, this is kind of touching on what I was trying to get at is there's like
Wes: different kinds of structures of code, right?
Wes: And abstraction and like how general or how widely used they are.
Wes: And so it'll be interesting to watch where you see more or less sort of first
Wes: use as LMs progress and as more folks use them.
Wes: And it makes total sense, I think, in that model that drivers and existing drivers
Wes: would be in one area that makes total that would be a good fit.
Chris: But to Brent's point earlier in my comment, like, I would bet sats that none
Chris: of these are being developed using Zed or ChatGPT in the web,
Chris: right? They're using actual tools with harnesses that they're,
Chris: you know, running on their machines.
Wes: So we should go take a look and maybe pull in some of these. I'd be curious to see.
Chris: They're running cloud code. You know, they're using cloud code and they're using codex.
Wes: This one's copilot.
Chris: Yeah, okay, and copilot.
Wes: Surprisingly.
Brent: The other thing that comes to mind for me is like, are people forking the Linux
Brent: kernel then to not have any AI code in their kernel? Are we seeing that?
Wes: Good question. I also wonder, I bet you, right, because I know like Greg has his own cool customs.
Wes: I bet there's going to be a lot of sort of bespoke kernel things that get spun
Wes: up as well because that's their style.
Chris: And then lastly, QMU is considering shifting away from their previous blanket
Chris: ban on AI-generated contributions and opening the door for AI-assisted for lower-risked
Chris: parts of the project. So this is another interesting approach.
Chris: You know, certain stuff will let you do AI-assisted coding on, but not for everything.
Chris: The proposed policy would allow AI help for tests, documentation,
Chris: mechanical changes, and small bug fixes.
Chris: Contributors would need to disclose that they're using AI usage with the AI-assisted
Chris: tag and giving QMU a way to accept the productivity boost while keeping the
Chris: review and accountability intact.
Chris: So this is maybe a way to dip the toe in to see if this is useful for the project
Chris: without getting completely swamped
Chris: all over the place. Seems kind of like maybe the balanced tag here.
Wes: And areas you're comfortable with and maybe, you know, you have really good
Wes: tests on and you'll know you'll catch regressions and it's easy to review,
Wes: you know, things like that.
Chris: And kind of signal to the community, we're being careful, we're willing to evaluate
Chris: this policy, we're going to change it from time to time, which I think is also
Chris: probably pretty reasonable because it's moving so fast.
Wes: Right, exactly. And you should keep evaluating as you see different results
Wes: with how it goes or doesn't work with your project.
Chris: All right, so we'd like you to boost in. How do you feel about AI-assisted code
Chris: in the open source projects or distribution that you're using,
Chris: you depend on, you know, your favorite applications?
Chris: If you discovered it was being contributed to by AI and AI-assisted coding,
Chris: what's your reaction to that?
Chris: Boost in, let us know. We'd like to get your take on it.
Wes: Quick unscientific survey. We got anti-gravity, we got CLOD, and we got Codex.
Chris: In the kernel?
Wes: Yep, those are just the most recent things today from the searching for commits with assisted by.
Chris: Just today? Wow. Oh, just recently. I see.
Wes: Yeah, this week.
Chris: Anti-gravity, huh? Look at Google Go. You wouldn't think it, would you?
Chris: Hey, I want to take a second and thank my friends over at Connect and Internet.
Chris: Use the promo code Jupiter35 to take $35 off your entire order.
Chris: They're not a sponsor, but I've been working with them recently to get a discount
Chris: for you guys because they've become my new go-to cellular internet provider.
Chris: Because what they do is they're an MBNO on all four major carriers.
Chris: Then they give you hardware that has antennae and modems for all four major
Chris: carriers, which is awesome.
Wes: How did you not have this earlier?
Chris: And how do I not have it? I had to build it, and then somebody else came along
Chris: and said, we'll make a product out of it.
Chris: And then on top of that, they're load balancing and figuring out which one's
Chris: giving you the best data or isn't capping you or something like that and moving you around.
Chris: They do offer truly unlimited data plans with priority data as well if you want
Chris: to pay for it, which it's within my price budget considering the things I paid for.
Chris: But I think the thing that's even cooler and maybe kind of what I'm going to
Chris: be doing going forward is they now offer a backup internet plan. It's just $39 a month.
Chris: They give you a slick router that auto monitors your connection.
Chris: I think it's using OpenWRT under the hood like mine is.
Chris: And when your main internet goes down, it instantly connects to one of the four
Chris: major wireless carriers who has the best signal in your area.
Chris: And then it detects when your main internet connection comes back up and switches
Chris: back to your main internet connection automatically.
Chris: They call it the Fortress. No, I'm using the Fortress router.
Chris: Or do they call theirs the, well, they have a cool name for it.
Chris: I don't know. But mine's the Fortress Router. So they all have these great names.
Wes: See, that just seems like a clear business expense.
Chris: My Fortress Router, though, is big. You wouldn't want to bring this thing,
Chris: like, on your mobile setup.
Chris: This one's for, like, on the homestead, permanent internet, seven antennas coming
Chris: off of this thing, massive POE-powered box.
Wes: Piece of infrastructure.
Chris: So go to connectinternet.com. We'll put a link in the show notes and use the promo code Jupiter35.
Chris: and I can tell you that $39 backup internet plan is a crazy good value.
Chris: I mean, back in the day, you had to pay for a full LTE data line to do this all the time.
Chris: And you're just sitting there not using it when it's crazy. So this backup is
Chris: a great idea for 40 bucks a month.
Chris: So go check it out, connectedinternet.com, promo code Jupyter35.
Chris: It's nice to have a spot to plug them because they've been awesome to work with
Chris: and they're going to hook you guys up.
Brent: Well, a couple of pieces of feedback this week. Zag Attack has one for us.
Brent: With the Bitwarden situation, I do not like that the costs went up $10.
Brent: Since I already have a Proton account, I'm probably looking at migrating to
Brent: them for password management.
Brent: Passwords and 2FA keys are something I consider too important to just have on my self-hosting setup.
Brent: I want to have one copy that I control and another that is on infrastructure
Brent: that is managed and maintained 24-7.
Brent: We'll also continue keeping a local copy in key pass like I do now.
Wes: Defense and depth. I like that.
Chris: Yeah. I realized where I really took a turn and just went all in on Bitwarden was pass keys.
Chris: When pass keys came along, a guy just got sucked in.
Chris: And I did not put my two factors in there, though. So that at least I don't have to migrate.
Chris: Anonymous wrote in. He says, what about this banger swap? Sup, everyone.
Chris: I'm building my own Arch-based Hyperland distro called Hyperspace OS. OS, OS, OS.
Chris: My school teacher likes the name. I like it, too. And I'm trying to figure out
Chris: a simple way to update the system configs, mostly Hyperland comps,
Chris: so people can get updates way more easy.
Chris: Do you guys have any suggestions for a good update method for a small project
Chris: like this? By the way, I'm 12 and I'm still learning, so can you get some advice
Chris: for how I should approach it in a good way and not nuke my PC?
Brent: P.S.
Chris: I wanted to make this because I saw ML4W Hyperland configs and they're pretty
Chris: bangers, so now I want to start building my own. Yes!
Wes: Excellent.
Chris: Love this. I mean, is this a good opportunity to learn a little Git and then
Chris: perhaps everybody that is running Hyperspace OS has a little scheduled job that
Chris: does a little Git checkout?
Wes: You could totally do something like that, yeah.
Chris: And if something goes wrong, it's pretty easy to roll back, and then you have
Chris: them do a little other update.
Wes: Git gets you all of the version control stuff, so you can keep multiple copies and, yeah, roll back.
Chris: Yeah.
Brent: I'm so proud of you. It's just so touching. Yeah. You're just,
Brent: now you're spreading Git. It's so nice.
Wes: Yeah, he did mention Merkle trees, though.
Chris: Well, you'd need something in Hyperspace OS that's checking in,
Chris: or some sort of little updater script for them that goes and pulls the latest,
Chris: you know, checkout and all that and brings it down. But I think it'd be totally possible.
Chris: That sounds like a really great project. Keep us posted on that.
Chris: We'd love to hear how it's going. And very impressive work.
Chris: You're already off to a great start.
Chris: And let's get to the boost. We had some support for this episode.
Chris: And we're going to start out with a live boost. It's coming in right now, West Payne.
Chris: Boop-a-da-boop-boop-boop-boop-a-da-boop. Coming in from the one,
Chris: the only, our podcast with 500,000 sacks.
Wes: A giant on-topic boost? That's unheard of.
Chris: Wow! Shoah has needed the support recently, so thank you, Rpodcast. Hello, JB.
Chris: This is a long overdue boost to thank you all for helping me finally get over
Chris: the hump and use of AI practically to make my dev life better. Oh, good.
Chris: Through Open Router and Claude Opus, I was able to migrate a very complex Nix
Chris: config from Wimpy's GitHub to my System76 machines. That is a complex one.
Brent: Yeah, it is.
Chris: I've seen that. Yeah, very well done. See, now he's got it on the OG Thaleo,
Chris: the new Thaleo Mira, and a Darter Pro Lab.
Chris: Now I have Hermes installed and I would really enjoy a future livestream tutorial
Chris: on how Chris sets up his agents to do the magic they do. Thanks again.
Brent: Do you have a month?
Wes: That's a fun idea.
Chris: That's not a bad idea at all. Jeez, I have been doing so much recently that
Chris: I'm kind of at a stabilization point, but it was two weeks of, I call it my B-plot.
Chris: of the day where I have like a zelge session with like open
Chris: code going and I just everywhere I go I
Chris: just sort of pull it up and I just keep moving the agent forward and then when
Chris: they start introducing slash goal like it just unlocked the whole new level
Chris: of like I just walk away for a while and I come back and I move it forward but
Chris: just yesterday I was I was doing another jam sesh I should have I should stream
Chris: it get a little music going totally but how would you know it's happening.
Wes: Yeah we'd have to have a signal throw it up on a live in the app at least.
Chris: I'm going to give it some thought i i do think that i i do think now i should
Chris: have been capturing that i think a lot of times when i'm in the fever build
Chris: phase i probably lose so much content on the floor just plowing through it and
Chris: i look back at what i built i
Chris: go wow i don't even know how i had the time and energy to do that it is it.
Wes: Is a fever dream state.
Chris: That is that.
Wes: Is for for real.
Chris: It's um it's unbelievable what i feel but thank you very much our podcast thank
Chris: you thank you very much uh really do appreciate it and I'm going to give some
Chris: thought to that keep you updated.
Wes: A Dude Dry and Stuff boosts in with 27,368.
Chris: Cents Oh!
Wes: I tried for a while to think of what would constitute a Brent boost, as in B-R-E-N-T.
Wes: Brentley won't pin his tabs. So, ended up with this.
Chris: Hold on. There we go.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I love that.
Wes: I tried for a while to think of what would constitute a Brent boost,
Wes: so ended up with this T9 dialing approach.
Wes: So, I guess that's how we get the 27368. Okay.
Wes: Wanted to boost in and say, yes, I do appreciate the RHEL coverage.
Wes: It's both something that heavily influences my future career and current learning,
Wes: but I did not have enough time to sift through myself.
Wes: Well, that's great. That's kind of what we're going for, I guess. Exactly.
Wes: Lastly, I've been self-hosting Vault Warden through Docker Compose on a $12
Wes: VPS for the last year and a half. It's been a great experience.
Chris: So thank you for the feedback on REL because we were just kicking ourselves
Chris: about an hour ago for doing it because it just really was seemingly a stinker.
Chris: Okay, so 27368 in T9 translates to Brent.
Wes: You looked at it. You verified it. Look at you.
Chris: I did. That's good.
Wes: That's your version of the map.
Chris: So a Brent boost, 27, yeah, except for it needs a sound effect if it is,
Chris: because come on, 27368 is a Brent boost. How about that?
Brent: Well, obviously it's Brent won't pin his tabs. That's the sound one, right?
Wes: And you have to open a new tab every time.
Brent: Yeah.
Brent: I love it. Well, we got another boost here from the facial hair, 5,000 sets.
Brent: I'm back with more freshly mined sats and another report of an area where Linux
Brent: and open source are doing great.
Brent: This time is worship centers. I have changed two churches and a mosque over to Linux recently.
Brent: They wanted a system that is stable and won't update in the middle of a service.
Brent: Many of these centers also can't afford hardware upgrades or struggling with
Brent: Windows 11 dropping support for older mixers.
Chris: Yeah. It does seem...
Wes: It does seem, almost seems something sort of wrong about, like,
Wes: bilking churches out of subscription money for a basic operating system.
Chris: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. You know, they just need Linux and maybe a little OBS
Chris: if they want to do a stream or something like that.
Chris: And if they could bring some tracks in, that's awesome.
Brent: They saw the light.
Chris: Keep it going, Hare. We like to see people getting migrated.
Chris: Landlocked also came in with, if you have a story out there,
Chris: do boost it in. Landlocked came in with 5,000 sats.
Chris: And he's boosting from the Indy 5,000 with 5,000 sats.
Chris: does that just make us jealous or what I don't know but do you like my sound effect race.
Wes: Car boost,
Wes: you got that.
Chris: That's what it would be like if we were there doing the show that's what it would sound like.
Wes: Tomato boosts in with 9,998.
Chris: Cents woo,
Chris: Mr. Tamato.
Wes: I did appreciate the Red Hat coverage, though it left me feeling down. Their fault, not yours.
Wes: And apparently uninspired to boost.
Chris: You know, I was wondering, I kind of, I was telling the boys before the show,
Chris: I kind of got a meh feeling watching the keynote too. It just sort of left me feeling a little down.
Brent: Wow.
Chris: I don't know why that was. It's nothing unusual about it.
Wes: Well, we didn't get into the sort of like fog and laser treatment because we
Wes: weren't there in person.
Chris: Also, it's the, you know, the enterprise corporate AI stuff is the thing that
Chris: appeals maybe the least to us right now. And that's what a lot of it was.
Wes: The Mado goes on with, I use key pass and sync thing, and it works great for my needs.
Wes: Love the Gnome Commander pick, by the way. It's a nice little bit of nostalgia
Wes: remembering when Gnome initially shipped Midnight Commander as their file manager.
Chris: Good callback. Good callback. I agree. Thanks, Tomato. Appreciate you.
Brent: Your inner child boosts in with two thousand and two satoshis.
Brent: Does 95% of this boost go to advertisement at the beginning of the show, Progressive?
Chris: Oh, you got Progressive? I got Smokey the Bear.
Wes: Yeah, the Smokey the Bear was great.
Chris: I love the Smokey the Bear.
Brent: I miss the YouTube live, even though I'm subscribed and belled.
Brent: I don't know what that's about.
Brent: I'd love for you guys to open with your sweet, sweet music like Twib does,
Brent: and then say a quick ad to pay the bills. Then come back after that.
Chris: We are uh so we because we don't have people actively buying the slots in the
Chris: show right now we were experimenting with dynamic ads i say we're i'm still kind of on the fence on it
Chris: we were able to work with a company that let us say no to a lot of categories
Chris: which has been great block stuff and all of that we'll see because we're just
Chris: hoping you know it's getting tight so we're just trying we'll try it out but
Chris: uh when i get smoky the bear i like it i've not heard a progressive ad yet i'd
Chris: say i only get an ad one out of two or three plays too it's interesting when
Chris: it decides to play in the whole thing is.
Wes: I think in theory we could change the insertion points. So like we could put
Wes: it in, but then maybe we'd have to time it out per show and stuff, which would be doable.
Chris: Or it's like it changes it for all of them or something. It's like,
Chris: yes, you can change it, but then I think it might.
Chris: But if we just had a place to bake it in, we could. Don't know.
Wes: It's new to us.
Chris: Yeah, it is new to us.
Brent: Well, if it makes you feel better, they continue here. Feel free to put in as
Brent: many ads as you need to pay JB's bills.
Chris: All right five more,
Chris: you wish Browns and Wing comes in with one two three four five sats,
Chris: You said not to boost passwords here, but here's my luggage combo.
Chris: Yeah, well, come on. We all use that. I also swap from OC.
Wes: Open claw.
Chris: Thank you, to Hermes. Way better. I'm running a dual 3090 with Llama CBP on
Chris: NixOS. It is my first Nix box.
Chris: I'm going to update the NVIDIA drivers.
Brent: Yeah, it will.
Wes: Yeah, it'll do it.
Chris: Quint 3.6 27 billion parameter Q8 with Q8 cache is very good.
Chris: I'm fully local setup with Search XNG. Yeah.
Wes: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: As my primary search. And I'm using this for my memory. And they link us to that.
Chris: I'm setting up mine for my wife's
Chris: work. She does endless paperwork as data entry. Hermes is crushing it.
Wes: Wow. Zero dependency sub-millisecond AI memory system for Hermes agents and everyone else.
Chris: Nice. I know I tell you boys this all the time, but I think memory systems are
Chris: going to be one of the very interesting development areas for agents.
Wes: For sure.
Chris: The better they are, the more they understand you, the less mistakes they make,
Chris: the less tokens they're burning, all of it. So it's, I think,
Chris: an interesting area of development.
Chris: All right. Well, I really like hearing about different memory systems.
Wes: Yeah. Keep those code boosted in.
Chris: Sounds like an awesome implementation, too.
Wes: Thanks, Bronzman. Exception boosts in with Robodux.
Wes: Switched from OnePass to Bitwarden in 2023, syncing between six devices.
Wes: Happy but hesitating to suggest it at work, as we already have a self-hosted SysPass behind a VPN.
Chris: Hmm. Hmm.
Wes: Yeah, I suppose that makes it even more additionally complicated.
Chris: Question. Yeah, it does. It does. It does.
Wes: Thanks for the report.
Chris: Yeah. That is... BitCryptic comes in with 16,384.
Chris: Sorry, Brantley. Hoping you guys might find our proposal of interest and maybe
Chris: something you could share with fellow listeners.
Chris: And it's MDF Markdown First, inspired by your recent discussion around agentic impact on web services.
Wes: A proposal for the agent-readable web. The web was built for human eyes.
Wes: AI agents are paying an enormous tax for that. We think there's a better way,
Wes: and we've written the proposal.
Chris: They request your HTML page. They receive a document full of navigation menus,
Chris: JavaScript bundles. That's true. Cookie banners, all a bunch of crap they don't need. the HTML tax.
Wes: The reference implementation is complete and live. MDF server is a self-hostable
Wes: Docker image, deployable. There's a demo site.
Chris: So what is it? They generate essentially a markdown version of your site?
Chris: Is that what they're doing here? And then serving that up to the agent?
Wes: Or asking that folks do. I think it might be more of like a spec or an idea
Wes: for how to make a web that's more generated at being agent friendly.
Chris: I like it. I mean, it looks...
Wes: There's a lot in here. So I'm just...
Chris: We'll take a look at it.
Wes: We'll take a look at it.
Brent: I mean, it might be more efficient to serve, really, when you think about it.
Chris: Oh, yeah. For both ends. All right, Bradley, why don't you take the next one?
Brent: Well, Bobby Pin boosted in 5,000 sats.
Brent: I still sync around a key pass file like a caveman. If y'all have any better
Brent: self-hosted solutions, I'm all ears.
Chris: Okay.
Wes: Hey, I'm not setting shade at key pass.
Brent: Hey, I'm in that cave with you.
Chris: The issue is it really breaks down for me on I'm adding something on mobile
Chris: and then I go to desktop or vice versa. That's really got to be first class experience.
Chris: Geononymous comes in with 4,018 sets.
Chris: No message, just value. So I'll take Retro Gear 2. Retro Gear comes in with 5,151 sats.
Chris: Jens, it's been a while. Bitwarden, self-host, been amazing for a couple of
Chris: years. Linux router, just moved to NixOS as my router from OpenSense. Yes.
Chris: Using Tectitium for DHCP and DNS on the same box. Just started playing out with Hermes. Wow.
Wes: Nice.
Chris: Have been using OpenCode for a couple of months. What a time we live in.
Chris: Oh, unpowered system still running Pentium 2. Whoa.
Chris: Pentium 2, 266 megahertz.
Wes: Well, I guess the boost name is Retro Gear.
Chris: That's true. With Windows 2003 server for my retro gaming PC,
Chris: having a good old LAN with my mates.
Wes: That is wonderful.
Chris: Cheers from Australia.
Wes: Thank you for the boost.
Chris: Love that.
Brent: Impressive.
Chris: That is so dense. True.
Wes: There's a lot going on.
Chris: And I don't think he AI'd that. I think he wrote it like that.
Chris: I think he did his own summarization there. A true hero among men.
Wes: Woo. True Grits boosts in with 12,345 sets.
Wes: I haven't really heard anything about the Bitwarden switch-up situation.
Wes: I'll have to look into it, besides the CLI issue recently.
Wes: I'm sticking with them for now. However, if I do bail, I'll probably switch
Wes: to ProtonPass, since I already pay for them.
Chris: Another ProtonPass.
Wes: Might give KeyPass another go.
Chris: Uh-huh.
Wes: I think the Red Hat coverage issue is mostly a result of people's AI burn-out.
Wes: People, including myself, are just tired of hearing about it constantly.
Wes: Not saying you guys shouldn't cover it. You do a decent job,
Wes: and then it's kind of cut off from there, unfortunately.
Chris: Thank you, True Grits. Yeah, we try to walk that line. it's
Chris: you know it's a it's it sucks that it's such
Chris: a relevant topic for so long now because if you think about it it's been it's
Chris: been the number one conversation in in tech since chat gpt launched and we actively
Chris: fight against it getting on every week because it's just it's what everybody's
Chris: and it's where all the financing is and everything it's just,
Chris: it's uh like i know that long term it's going to make make more linux users
Chris: and more free software users, but the ride there is an obnoxious one.
Wes: It's going to be rough. We got to hang in there.
Brent: Greg the lawyer is hanging in there with 10,302 sats.
Brent: Great last episode, I had already looked into Hermes. You convinced me to make the switch, though.
Wes: Nice.
Brent: Really is a much nicer experience than the lobster. I'm spending much less time
Brent: maintaining and more time doing.
Brent: I set it loose documenting my home lab, and it's found things I didn't know were actually broken.
Chris: They're very good at that.
Brent: It also offers to set up regular cron jobs where that makes sense instead of
Brent: burning tokens by default.
Brent: I'm looking forward to trying it with some local models for basic tasks next.
Chris: One of the things I've done recently is my agent data checks in on Home Assistant,
Chris: and it generates me a report of all the devices that have less than 10% battery life.
Wes: Oh, good idea. I love that.
Chris: But the next step that it took me one day before I realized I need this is I
Chris: have data do a quick attempt at figuring out what type of battery that device needs.
Chris: So when I get the report, I know what kind of batteries.
Chris: And I don't have to because what I always do with these sensors is like it's
Chris: been a year. So I have to go open it up and be like, OK, what type of battery
Chris: does this one take? because there's like three different lithium types these things take.
Chris: And it's just so handy. Just that little bit of extra information,
Chris: just go right on there. Okay, I got that one. I got that one.
Chris: Oh, I need to order that one. Okay.
Wes: You're just the tech for the bots.
Chris: Pab came in with 6,666 sets.
Chris: I recently landed a new job. Definitely a step up in my short career as a social science researcher.
Chris: And honestly, this isn't the first time being a Linux nerd and a self-hoster
Chris: has given me an edge over the competition.
Chris: That skill set is in no small part thanks to listening to you guys.
Chris: I'm forever grateful for real.
Chris: Long live Jupiter Broadcasting. Thank you very much.
Wes: And congratulations.
Chris: I'm glad we could play a role in that. Truly.
Wes: Turd Ferguson comes in with 17,076 sets.
Wes: Good show, boys. Sending value your way. Also, not sure if you noticed,
Wes: but RAM and disk prices are starting to drop. Still too expensive.
Wes: Really? But I think the trend is our friend.
Chris: Is that true?
Brent: Somehow I don't believe this.
Wes: Is that true? I'm not true.
Chris: I'm going to look that up. Let's look up NVMe and Samsung, because boy,
Chris: is my NVMe in a situation right now.
Wes: Oh, yeah, right.
Chris: So I'm on Camel Camel. Let's... Huh.
Brent: Oh, wow. Really?
Chris: Take a look at this. Take a look at this. a 2TB Western Digital Black,
Chris: so it's not a Samsung, but still a great drive, 2TB NVMe Western Digital Black Gen 4 PCIe M.2.
Chris: It is down. It is down from an all-time high of $420 to $299.
Wes: That's more reasonable.
Chris: Huh. Well, that's a good sign. Let's see what 32GB of RAM. I'm just curious.
Wes: Yeah.
Chris: 32GB. Is it just disk? is it are we did we see the supply chain respond here
Chris: what's going on here still not in stock for 32 gigs well.
Wes: Why would you need that.
Chris: So that ain't great do you think 64 gigs is in stock,
Chris: Of course, this is according to Camel Camel. Oh, that still looks pretty expensive to me.
Chris: Let's see here. Corsair, 64 gigs of RAM. Oh, it is down, but still very expensive.
Wes: Yeah.
Chris: So it's down from an all-time high of $927 to $850. It touched $757.
Brent: What?
Chris: Oh, in May. So it actually touched down to $757 in May and then popped back up to $850.
Chris: That's a $100 difference. That's insane. That is positive.
Chris: If you look at the three-month price trend, that is a positive price trend.
Wes: Yeah, the data's a little less clear.
Chris: I'm hopeful, but I hope. I'm going to go with turd. It looks like it's down,
Chris: but I'm not buying in yet.
Chris: We need about another 50% price, maybe 100%. Let's do it.
Chris: Let's do 200%. Can we do 200%? I'm told that works. I'm told you can do that.
Brent: I don't think that's how math works. No, I'm pretty sure it does.
Brent: But KiwiBitcoinGuide boosted in 4,567 sats.
Chris: Hmm.
Brent: How does Nebula compare to Tailscale for the purpose of isolating a server running
Brent: OpenClaw or Hermes in a network?
Brent: I've built a plan to isolate a small server inside my LAN so that I can experiment with agents.
Brent: One item on that plan was creating a tail net with only the device I want the agent to connect to.
Brent: Can I do that with Nebula? How would that differ from using Tailscale?
Chris: Can and I say do it should. So you can also have both.
Chris: You could have Tailscale running on a system and then also run Nebula.
Wes: Totally. They work just fine together.
Chris: They do. So why I love Nebula for agentic work is because you don't need any
Chris: company between you and what the agent can generate.
Wes: There's no offing into some third-party provider that you have to deal with.
Chris: You're just generating keys.
Wes: It's all local.
Chris: Last week, I decided I had a Nebula network between two hosts.
Chris: And I was like, you know what? I want to add three more hosts to that.
Chris: And I tasked the agent and it did everything.
Chris: It generates the keys. It knows SSH, you know, logins. It moves things around for me.
Chris: It adds them to the configs. It rebuilds them and they're talking.
Chris: And it does it in three minutes.
Chris: So, if you're leaning into an agentic workflow, Nebula is inherently just by default built for that.
Chris: And so, you can stand up networks very easily just as a person or now agentically.
Chris: And you don't need to have it like sign into a Google account or whatever single
Chris: sign-on you're going to be using or anything like that.
Chris: so it's I think it's great and then you know if you still want to use tail scale
Chris: for like all your other stuff that you already have going you can't you can
Chris: run both and then all your agentic stuff all your AI related stuff and all those
Chris: services they only listen on say for example maybe they only listen on the nebula
Chris: interface and so you're you don't have to worry about things on your tail net
Chris: getting to it and stuff like that.
Wes: As for if you do want to try to look at some of the comparisons you might just
Wes: I'd say try to focus on I mean it depends on what you're doing to isolate But
Wes: maybe look at, because a lot of it might come down to what you allow them to
Wes: access on your network, whether that's directly or over the mesh.
Wes: And so go take a look at the security primitives that are offered for,
Wes: you know, what Nebula's got, whatever, any other systems that you need and see
Wes: if they let you do what you try to do.
Chris: And too, like with Hermes and with the CLAW, you can tell them to only bind
Chris: to, like, say, the Nebula interface.
Chris: So it's another way, just another level there. And so you could only,
Chris: maybe you only get to the Hermes dashboard, the web UI on the Nebula interface and stuff like that.
Chris: And I think it's a frickin' great solution, and once people figure out, and then,
Chris: When you force multiply it with something like Nix, where you can declaratively
Chris: deploy Nebula, and then you just push that Nix configuration out to your various
Chris: machines and then rebuild them, and then they're...
Wes: So good. And you could just sort of tag stuff and be like, you know,
Wes: only give it access to stuff that has the, you know, in the AI group or...
Chris: Do you think people are understanding what a big deal it is that you can declaratively
Chris: deploy a mesh network across your host with no big tech? Like,
Chris: I don't know if people have wrapped their head around the power.
Wes: It's just like a substrate you get for free.
Chris: Yes. that changes.
Wes: How you architect the rest of it with persistent mesh aware identities.
Chris: So i think it's it's at least worth looking into even
Chris: if you ultimately do decide to go like with a tail scale route or
Chris: a different way kiwi bitcoin guide but i think it's i think it is at least a
Chris: quick glance and you know asking an lm to walk you through it if you have any
Chris: questions i think that would work all right well that was a just a a really
Chris: banger of a boost segment our podcast lifting us up from what we thought was
Chris: going to be a rough week to just absolutely crushing it So thank you,
Chris: everyone who streamed sats.
Chris: 16 of you streamed as you listened. You stacked 19,963 sats.
Chris: Not too bad right there at all.
Chris: Thank you very much. We do appreciate that.
Chris: When you combine that with our baller boots from our podcast and everybody else
Chris: who contributed, this episode stacked an extremely impressive 665,907 sats.
Chris: That's a week you go home, you tell the wife about. That's what that is right
Chris: there. Thank you very much.
Chris: We're doing this show week after week. Even though nobody seems to want to buy
Chris: commercial spots on it, the audience is keeping it going between our members and our boosters.
Chris: We appreciate you.
Chris: Now, if you want to get in on the boosting fun, we have links at the top of
Chris: our show notes, kind of like the easiest path.
Chris: It does take a little bit of adventuring, so we always do appreciate everybody helping us there.
Chris: And if you want to just put your fee out on autopilot, we have jupiter.party
Chris: for the whole network and linuxunplugged.com slash membership for just this here episode.
Chris: And we're going to wrap it up, but we've got a couple of picks before we go.
Chris: And our first one I think is just useful for anybody that's ever wanted to record
Chris: a specific application audio stream on their desktop.
Chris: I'm always trying to do this, so maybe I am a little biased here.
Chris: But there's a time when maybe there's a game stream or whatever it might be.
Chris: Maybe it's the show you want to have a backup copy.
Wes: I'm recording our show right now.
Chris: Oh, my goodness. Look at you using the pic. Very nice.
Chris: It's called Record Apps. And it's a desktop application that allows you to record
Chris: audio from a specific application on Linux built with Dino and supports pipe
Chris: wire metadatas and whatnot.
Chris: So it can actually get like application name, plain data stuff and gives you
Chris: a nice UI to record just that application's audio.
Brent: This is so great.
Chris: It's purpose-built, super focused, and is available on Flathub.
Wes: And it's mostly a thin UI over Pipewire.
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: Which is kind of great because there's not a lot of complexity to it.
Chris: And it means it's going to probably just be rock solid.
Wes: Yeah.
Chris: Now, our next pick, not rock solid yet. The developer says it's very early days,
Chris: but I think this is something that's got real potential.
Chris: It's called OpenLogic, and it's a native local-first alternative for the Logitech
Chris: Options Plus for Linux written in Rust.
Chris: It lets you remap buttons, change your DPI settings, the smart shift over HID++ settings.
Chris: No account required, no telemetry.
Chris: Tons of features in the works as well. Not quite yet implemented,
Chris: but lots of stuff on the roadmap. Real good roadmap, actually, for this project.
Wes: There's a GUI, there's a CLI. Everything's local. Bindings live in a plain Toml file.
Chris: I like having the GUI and the CLI.
Wes: That's a nice touch.
Chris: It is. And it's impressive what they've gotten done already.
Chris: they're looking for community input and if you've got a Logitech mouse,
Chris: don't most of us have one somewhere and you've wanted some of that Logitech
Chris: stuff on Linux to maybe change some of the settings, some of the configuration.
Wes: Warning, it seems like Mac is there today, Linux and Windows are coming soon, so.
Chris: Yeah, yeah it's early days, it's early days.
Wes: That's something to watch.
Chris: Maybe it's a little early featured on the show, I don't know,
Chris: but we've given a little love we might get some Linux use, so we'll see.
Wes: And there's, you know, there's like a dev n.nix in there, so you gotta like to see that?
Chris: Indeed, and it is Apache and MI2 licensed. It's called OpenLogy,
Chris: and it is very early days.
Chris: Sounds like their Linux build not ready yet, which is disappointing,
Chris: but I think if we show them a little love, perhaps they'll be encouraged to
Chris: create this for the Linux community, because we've all got some Logitech devices sitting around.
Chris: I got one right here, and the situation, there are tools, we've talked about
Chris: them before, that are available today for Linux, but not as comprehensive as this one.
Chris: So the situation would be a lot better if we saw that come over.
Wes: Looks like RecordApps is MIT.
Chris: Yeah. Oh, did I not mention that?
Wes: I don't know.
Chris: I don't think I did mention that. Thank you.
Chris: How do you like it?
Wes: I like it. It's quick. It's easy. It uses Denno, which is kind of interesting.
Wes: It has like a web view that does the graphics layer.
Wes: And then under the hood, the Denno runtime is just basically calling out to
Wes: Pipewire. So pretty lean, which is great. And the UI looked nice.
Wes: I mean, it was more featureful than I expected.
Chris: Yeah, the developer is also responsible for a couple of other neat apps that
Chris: they've also published on FlatHub.
Chris: I think his name is Bettis. And he's also made, if you're into this kind of
Chris: thing, an app called Stimulator that keeps your monitor awake.
Chris: Simple UI to just go in there and configure like when the monitor goes to sleep.
Chris: And I think using the same toolkit as for record apps, the developer has also
Chris: created a ping monitor, which, you know, there's a lot of these around,
Chris: but it's very clean. It looks like maybe the same toolkit and a nice way to graph your ping stats.
Wes: Oh, that does look nice.
Chris: So they got a few apps over there on the old flat hub. They've been cranking them out.
Brent: Isn't this a great example of a developer like scratching their own itch in
Brent: the exact ways we were talking about during the conversation about, you know, anti-AI?
Chris: Yeah, absolutely.
Brent: This is the exact thing. So why wouldn't we want this?
Chris: And I guess, you know, to my question to the audience...
Chris: Maybe I don't care if it's Vibe-coded. I mean, it is TypeScript and HTML,
Chris: and they love writing TypeScript. These machines love writing TypeScript.
Brent: That's the giveaway, is it?
Chris: No, it's just, you know, if you were going to have a list of things that could
Chris: possibly make it LM-generated, TypeScript might be one of the data points.
Brent: It's the M-dash in TypeScript.
Chris: But I don't know if I care. But I think I might...
Wes: I think this comes down to sort of, when do you care? When do we care?
Chris: I think maybe I care more if it's an app. I've been using for years or a distro
Chris: I've been using for years.
Chris: Like, R-Sync is the perfect example where it's like, everybody uses R-Sync. It helps back up my data.
Wes: Yeah, it's connected to a lot of important systems.
Chris: A lot of people have scripts and automations and whatnot, backup jobs built
Chris: around R-Sync. So it's just the perfect example.
Wes: But a Pomodoro timer for your desktop is sort of...
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: You probably notice if it fails.
Chris: Or, you know, if you're adopting R-Sync today, hey, you probably wouldn't care.
Chris: If March, you know, or May or April, you started using R-Sync and this happened,
Chris: it probably isn't a big, like, life-shaking deal for you.
Chris: But if you've been using it for 10, 15 years, like some of us have,
Chris: it is kind of a bigger deal.
Wes: Rock-solid plumbing than you count on.
Chris: I think, and I'd like to know what the audience thinks. Boost in and tell us.
Chris: I think that could make for a good engaging boost segment next week.
Chris: And tell us how you feel about AI-assisted code in the OSS projects or distributions that you depend on.
Chris: If you feel sort of similar, I mean, it is new and something we're going to have to work through.
Chris: Now, I will mention we are live. We can we can stream on a Tuesday and make
Chris: it a Sunday using the power of Linux.
Chris: So join us on a Tuesday on a Sunday at 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 p.m. Eastern.
Chris: And we do have more data around the show that people could go get their hands on. Tell them about it.
Wes: Cloud chapters.
Chris: What?
Wes: Yeah, that's right.
Chris: Cloud chapters, you say?
Wes: The magic of the cloud in your podcast app.
Chris: Wow. No way. What about transcripts?
Wes: Why would you want that?
Chris: Yeah, you probably wouldn't. I wouldn't grab those.
Wes: No, definitely not. Not SRT or VTT. And the VTT definitely doesn't have your name attached to it.
Chris: No, absolutely not.
Wes: Don't even look.
Chris: To what we talked about and more over at linuxunplugged.com.
Chris: This is episode 669, so it's slash 669, including our contact page,
Chris: our mumble room info, and our matrix info.
Chris: We'd love to have you join us in one of those during a live show.
Chris: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Your Unplugged Program.
Chris: We'll see you back here next Tuesday. You know it, as in Sunday.