WEBVTT 00:00:11.657 --> 00:00:16.177 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:16.377 --> 00:00:17.037 My name is Wes. 00:00:17.257 --> 00:00:18.077 And my name is Brent. 00:00:18.537 --> 00:00:22.537 Hello, gentlemen. Well, coming up on the show today, it appears Google is laying 00:00:22.537 --> 00:00:26.157 the groundwork to start locking down sideloading on Android. 00:00:26.477 --> 00:00:30.577 You can imagine we have some thoughts on that news. So what we'll do is we'll 00:00:30.577 --> 00:00:35.077 push Wes's pixel further than Google ever imagined or dreamed possible. 00:00:35.277 --> 00:00:38.857 Then we'll round out the show with some great boosts and picks and a lot more. 00:00:38.857 --> 00:00:42.537 So before we get to all of that, let's start by saying time-appropriate greetings 00:00:42.537 --> 00:00:44.837 to our mumble room. Hello, Virtual Log. 00:00:44.977 --> 00:00:47.257 Hello there. Hello, Brent. 00:00:47.777 --> 00:00:50.537 Hello. And hello, everybody up there in the quiet listening, 00:00:50.697 --> 00:00:52.157 too. Got a good showing up there as well. 00:00:52.417 --> 00:00:57.437 Of course, we're doing this here podcast live on a Sunday. We start around 10 a.m. 00:00:57.557 --> 00:01:00.637 Pacific time, but you can get that converted to jupiterbroadcasting.com slash 00:01:00.637 --> 00:01:02.637 calendar. Or here's a pro tip. 00:01:03.817 --> 00:01:07.437 Use the podcasting 2.0 app, and it'll just be right there in your list. 00:01:07.937 --> 00:01:14.997 Easy peasy. And a big thank you to Defined Networking at Defined.net slash unplugged. 00:01:15.037 --> 00:01:17.337 Go meet Managed Nebula from Defined Networking. 00:01:17.557 --> 00:01:23.437 They took the brilliant, beautiful, fully open source Nebula Mesh VPN network 00:01:23.437 --> 00:01:26.097 and built this product around that anyone can use. 00:01:26.197 --> 00:01:30.877 It's Managed Nebula, a decentralized VPN built on what we think is the best 00:01:30.877 --> 00:01:32.637 open source Mesh VPN platform. 00:01:32.837 --> 00:01:37.997 And the entire stack is optimized for speed, simplicity, and industry-leading security. 00:01:37.997 --> 00:01:43.537 Slack has been using it since day one, but we hear more and more stories from 00:01:43.537 --> 00:01:48.537 you out there in the audience using it to point it on your home labs or for 00:01:48.537 --> 00:01:51.137 work or whatever it is, and as a result, keep sending them in. 00:01:51.637 --> 00:01:54.317 We've been seeing some pretty cool tools sent into the network, 00:01:54.357 --> 00:01:56.977 but this one was actually made by one of our own. 00:01:57.057 --> 00:02:02.097 Deckbot, listener Deckbot, has made Nebulous CertMaker, a simple YAML and Python 00:02:02.097 --> 00:02:05.697 script to create certificates for all of your mesh nodes. 00:02:06.217 --> 00:02:10.077 So I think, Wes, the way it works is it looks like you have a list of all your hosts. 00:02:10.837 --> 00:02:16.137 It'll walk through that list and create a new Nebula certificate and generate 00:02:16.137 --> 00:02:18.637 and sign the certificates for each one of the hosts in that file. 00:02:19.097 --> 00:02:22.817 Exactly, yes. Like Nebula itself provides the primitives for managing the certs 00:02:22.817 --> 00:02:23.837 and all that kind of thing. 00:02:24.377 --> 00:02:27.857 And you can build on top of it. And DeckBot has, which is awesome. 00:02:27.997 --> 00:02:30.357 And we're seeing more and more of that, which is great to see. 00:02:30.497 --> 00:02:35.177 Shout out to DeckBot for making something just real simple but really useful. 00:02:35.697 --> 00:02:40.717 And the nice thing about Nebula is when you deploy Nebula, you are in control. 00:02:41.890 --> 00:02:44.990 You can run the entire infrastructure. It's not bits of it that are kind of 00:02:44.990 --> 00:02:47.630 like this weird fork and you can kind of run part of the infrastructure. 00:02:47.710 --> 00:02:51.530 No, you can run all of it or you can take advantage of their managed product. 00:02:51.750 --> 00:02:55.670 Go right now to define.net slash unplugged and get 100 hosts absolutely free. 00:02:56.010 --> 00:03:00.530 Take advantage of top tier encryption. Take advantage of the leading industry 00:03:00.530 --> 00:03:03.410 product that is lean, mean, and fast on your host. 00:03:03.870 --> 00:03:09.610 100 hosts absolutely free. No credit card required. Go to define.net slash unplugged. 00:03:13.570 --> 00:03:18.870 Okay, it's on. It's definitely on. Texas Linux Festival, October 3rd through 00:03:18.870 --> 00:03:23.410 the 4th in Austin, Texas, at the Commons Conference Center in Austin. 00:03:24.330 --> 00:03:28.470 We're all road tripping. Brent's coming down from the East Coast, 00:03:28.670 --> 00:03:30.470 coming down in the van to Texas. 00:03:30.930 --> 00:03:35.030 And Wes and I are going to load into my car and road trip down on the West Coast. 00:03:35.150 --> 00:03:38.950 So we'll be coming down individual coasts at the same time. That's kind of cool. 00:03:39.070 --> 00:03:40.270 So meet us there, why don't you? 00:03:40.350 --> 00:03:41.230 Coast to coast. 00:03:41.890 --> 00:03:47.750 Coast to coast Texas Linux Fest. We don't have swag yet, but we will probably 00:03:47.750 --> 00:03:51.230 midweek have some Texas Linux Fest swag in the Jupyter Garage. 00:03:51.330 --> 00:03:52.350 So I'll put a link in the show notes. 00:03:52.550 --> 00:03:56.710 So midweek after this came out, go check that out. So, you know, 00:03:56.770 --> 00:03:57.850 the first week of September. 00:03:58.910 --> 00:04:03.050 And once again, I'm going to be coming to you asking to help us get there with some boosts. 00:04:03.110 --> 00:04:08.110 We're in conversation with one potential sponsor, but it hasn't really gotten 00:04:08.110 --> 00:04:11.290 anywhere yet. And I'm not sure it will in time for us to make it to Texas Linux 00:04:11.290 --> 00:04:13.330 Fest. So we're going to self-finance this one way or another. 00:04:14.530 --> 00:04:17.730 My hope is that we can get some boosts that come in. And then what we're going 00:04:17.730 --> 00:04:19.430 to do, and the reason why the boosts are going to be useful, 00:04:19.690 --> 00:04:21.710 is I'll be completely frank with you. 00:04:22.210 --> 00:04:24.510 I'm going to throw them into a loan. I'm not going to sell them. 00:04:24.590 --> 00:04:25.390 I'm going to throw them into a loan. 00:04:25.450 --> 00:04:29.230 And if somehow for something happened and the price crashed and we got margin 00:04:29.230 --> 00:04:30.570 call, it's fine. It's the same as selling them then. 00:04:30.790 --> 00:04:33.870 But we're going to put them into a loan. We're going to do that to finance our 00:04:33.870 --> 00:04:35.350 ability to get down to Texas Linux Fest. 00:04:35.770 --> 00:04:38.750 Now, Chris, why would you do something like that? That's crazy. 00:04:40.010 --> 00:04:43.370 I am really committed to trying to cover these events in a way. 00:04:43.590 --> 00:04:50.050 I know this sounds sort of, well, you know, sort of self, self, um, I don't know. 00:04:50.170 --> 00:04:54.630 It's sort of, it's not a brag, but I just, I feel strongly that if these events don't get covered. 00:04:56.061 --> 00:04:59.001 And they're not streamed online or anything like that. It's like it's in a way 00:04:59.001 --> 00:05:01.481 they don't really happen except for in this small little pocket. 00:05:02.301 --> 00:05:05.381 And they don't make often a huge impact outside of that. 00:05:06.241 --> 00:05:11.501 And these are really unique to the Linux community. These fests that are put 00:05:11.501 --> 00:05:15.881 together by just volunteers that care about Linux and free software. 00:05:16.241 --> 00:05:20.261 And it's a real pain in the butt. And they go through all of the work. 00:05:20.721 --> 00:05:23.481 A year-long job. Every year. 00:05:23.481 --> 00:05:29.741 Without the, you know, corporate style of it kind of budget or time allocation or anything like that. 00:05:29.821 --> 00:05:34.461 Constantly trying to juggle venues and budgets and networking and community expectations. 00:05:35.321 --> 00:05:40.001 And they put together something that brings us together across different cultures 00:05:40.001 --> 00:05:43.061 and different beliefs. But we come together around Linux and free software. 00:05:43.861 --> 00:05:48.641 And the connections you make there are truly like they take something maybe 00:05:48.641 --> 00:05:51.601 like somebody you've known online. You meet them in person and they become true friendships. 00:05:52.821 --> 00:05:55.901 And it's not just about the networking these are 00:05:55.901 --> 00:05:59.061 really special events and they're unique to our community 00:05:59.061 --> 00:06:02.161 they're unique to our culture other things 00:06:02.161 --> 00:06:06.361 they have their kind of community events but nothing's like a linux fest and 00:06:06.361 --> 00:06:10.181 i feel really strongly that it's one of the things the show can do as a contribution 00:06:10.181 --> 00:06:13.721 to the linux community at whole is try to document and capture these things 00:06:13.721 --> 00:06:18.501 as they happen and then they become part of the show's tapestry over time so 00:06:18.501 --> 00:06:19.641 five years you listen and back, 00:06:19.781 --> 00:06:23.841 you know, you can hear the 2025 Texas Linux Fest. It's a time capsule. 00:06:24.761 --> 00:06:28.161 And then the difference of us going and not going is the difference of that 00:06:28.161 --> 00:06:30.061 getting covered and getting captured. 00:06:30.701 --> 00:06:34.421 And plus, we meet our fellow community members there. 00:06:34.641 --> 00:06:38.581 It's our opportunity and our chance to actually convert numbers on a dashboard 00:06:38.581 --> 00:06:44.901 to real faces. And it gives us this kind of motivation that you just don't get 00:06:44.901 --> 00:06:47.381 scrolling social media and reading the email feedback. 00:06:48.081 --> 00:06:53.541 So it's probably one of the most expensive things we do and probably one of 00:06:53.541 --> 00:06:54.741 the most important things we do. 00:06:55.501 --> 00:06:59.161 And, you know, screw me if I have yet to figure out a way to really make a profit 00:06:59.161 --> 00:07:02.441 at it. But it's still something I feel is extremely important we do. 00:07:03.061 --> 00:07:06.961 And it's also a form of genuine, unique content and journalism. 00:07:07.621 --> 00:07:12.921 I think that's kind of maybe don't call it that, but it's in the category of we're going there. 00:07:13.041 --> 00:07:15.841 We're doing original reporting that isn't being covered anywhere else. 00:07:15.841 --> 00:07:19.961 We're capturing something that's unique to our community, and we have an inherent 00:07:19.961 --> 00:07:24.601 expertise and understanding on the topic matter and on the culture and of the people, 00:07:25.141 --> 00:07:28.081 so we're perfectly positioned to cover it and capture it. 00:07:29.749 --> 00:07:33.109 So it just feels like it's extremely important to me that we actually do this. 00:07:33.349 --> 00:07:38.189 And I felt this way for years, but it's really been crystallized in the last couple of years. 00:07:39.709 --> 00:07:42.569 But that doesn't mean there's commercial interest in there. There's not a lot 00:07:42.569 --> 00:07:46.209 of companies that are going to make a lot of money financing that. 00:07:46.989 --> 00:07:51.109 Now, there's some that want to do it, but it hasn't materialized yet. 00:07:52.389 --> 00:07:55.509 But I think it's important, and I would like your help if you would like to 00:07:55.509 --> 00:07:56.529 boost in and help us get there. 00:07:57.449 --> 00:08:00.769 We're going to take those sats. We're going to throw them in a SALT loan. 00:08:01.969 --> 00:08:03.549 There is a margin of insurance there. 00:08:03.909 --> 00:08:06.629 And then we're going to use that to finance it to get us down there. 00:08:06.729 --> 00:08:10.469 And then I'm going to pay it off probably myself personally over the next year 00:08:10.469 --> 00:08:12.389 or so. Or we'll sell the SALT, whatever we have to do. 00:08:13.269 --> 00:08:17.209 But it gives us some optionality. We have the option to or not to sell them. 00:08:17.609 --> 00:08:19.169 So it gives us flexibility there. 00:08:19.629 --> 00:08:23.149 And when it's in that SALT loan, we'll have cash that we can use to get our 00:08:23.149 --> 00:08:26.869 butts down there and rent hotels and whatever else we have to do. 00:08:27.789 --> 00:08:34.029 so that's the goal it's a bit ambitious and we only have until the end of this 00:08:34.029 --> 00:08:41.889 month really next month september to do it because i think by my math we need to hit the road, 00:08:42.969 --> 00:08:47.089 by september 28th so the episode we do on september 28th we basically after 00:08:47.089 --> 00:08:48.589 the episode we pack up and we hit the road. 00:08:48.589 --> 00:08:51.749 Well we got to get there because i got the good news that my talk was accepted 00:08:51.749 --> 00:08:55.449 so i'll be sharing an updated version of my mesh networking on nix os talk. 00:08:56.869 --> 00:09:00.709 Well, now we got a mission. We got to get Wes to Texas Linux Fest so he can 00:09:00.709 --> 00:09:02.869 give us a talk. And then we'll meet up with Brent. 00:09:03.709 --> 00:09:06.769 He'll be there in his van at Texas Linux Fest, and we'll hang out in Austin 00:09:06.769 --> 00:09:08.749 with you guys and with Brent and everybody. 00:09:10.009 --> 00:09:14.529 And then we're going to caravan back up to the Pacific Northwest in my car and Brent's van. 00:09:15.549 --> 00:09:16.489 Operation Homeward Bound. 00:09:16.549 --> 00:09:20.949 Yeah. So it's super ambitious, but we hope, we hope, we hope you will help us 00:09:20.949 --> 00:09:24.409 with that. You can send us a boost. The easiest way to do it is Fountain FM. 00:09:26.049 --> 00:09:28.469 Now, again, the reason why we're doing boosts is because we're going to be using 00:09:28.469 --> 00:09:29.789 that in a particular way. 00:09:29.969 --> 00:09:32.989 So Fountain FM is probably the most straightforward way to do it because they 00:09:32.989 --> 00:09:34.089 self-host all that infrastructure. 00:09:34.449 --> 00:09:37.869 Now, if you can't do that or you don't want to participate in that, 00:09:38.169 --> 00:09:43.549 later in the week, we should have some Texas LinuxFest swag up in the Jupyter 00:09:43.549 --> 00:09:45.929 Garage at JupyterGarage.com. 00:09:46.889 --> 00:09:50.469 And, you know, inflation has hit the prices of swag. I was complaining to the 00:09:50.469 --> 00:09:52.969 boys that even like before we price it, these things are ridiculous. 00:09:52.969 --> 00:09:55.649 list, but we'll try to keep it reasonable, but something in there that can still 00:09:55.649 --> 00:09:57.089 put some fuel in the tank and whatnot. 00:09:57.329 --> 00:10:00.569 And we'll have that up at jupytergarage.com, which could be another way. 00:10:00.969 --> 00:10:03.649 And just anybody that does even consider it. Thank you very much. 00:10:04.109 --> 00:10:08.129 So it's a wild thing we're doing here, making a Linux podcast for a very niche 00:10:08.129 --> 00:10:10.869 audience, caring about these kinds of esoteric things. 00:10:11.189 --> 00:10:13.589 There's not a lot of people out there that get it. So if you're one of them, 00:10:13.709 --> 00:10:14.589 we really appreciate you. 00:10:19.643 --> 00:10:25.223 Well, we wanted to follow up on the Bcash FS saga, as it has now been officially 00:10:25.223 --> 00:10:28.963 marked as externally maintained by Linus Torvalds, 00:10:29.203 --> 00:10:34.923 which means essentially Bcash FS has lost its seat at the dinner table and it's 00:10:34.923 --> 00:10:36.343 going to go sit at the kids table again, 00:10:36.583 --> 00:10:38.583 which is a big shift since it was really, 00:10:38.883 --> 00:10:41.923 really close to being declared stable. 00:10:41.923 --> 00:10:46.103 But Linus has officially moved it from the supported category to, 00:10:46.503 --> 00:10:49.943 quote, externally maintained in the kernel's maintainer's file. 00:10:50.143 --> 00:10:52.783 Now, you guys know if you've been listening to the show, this is after months 00:10:52.783 --> 00:10:58.063 of back and forth that sort of broke down after Linux 6.17 and have led to this. 00:10:58.203 --> 00:11:04.563 Yeah, as Linus said in his commit, as per many long discussion threads, public and private. 00:11:04.843 --> 00:11:05.003 Yeah. 00:11:05.463 --> 00:11:09.983 But we don't know a ton about exactly what that means. I did take a little peek 00:11:09.983 --> 00:11:13.563 in the maintainer's file. it has a self-description on like this status line, 00:11:13.703 --> 00:11:17.103 which could be supported, which is someone is actually paid to look after this, 00:11:17.183 --> 00:11:20.423 could be maintained, which is somebody actually looks after it. 00:11:20.603 --> 00:11:24.743 Then there's odd fixes, there's orphan, and there's obsolete listed there. 00:11:24.903 --> 00:11:28.663 But then if you actually go grep in the file, there's a few more things that 00:11:28.663 --> 00:11:33.803 you find like an orphan slash obsolete, some specific references to different architectures. 00:11:33.983 --> 00:11:38.283 There's also one that's called buried alive in reporters, which is actually 00:11:38.283 --> 00:11:43.903 what is listed at the very bottom under the arrest which has linus listed as the maintainer what. 00:11:43.903 --> 00:11:48.123 Is buried under alive in reporters does that mean air reports or does that mean media. 00:11:48.123 --> 00:11:50.923 I think people you know talking to him he's basically the person 00:11:50.923 --> 00:11:54.403 of last resort you know yeah yeah but in 00:11:54.403 --> 00:11:57.323 there there's only right so standing out as a single entry 00:11:57.323 --> 00:12:00.663 is this externally maintained and there's no real other references i could find 00:12:00.663 --> 00:12:04.923 in the kernel source really so at this point i don't know what it means exactly 00:12:04.923 --> 00:12:07.923 in terms of like official status obviously it seems to be implied that linus 00:12:07.923 --> 00:12:11.643 is not intending to accept any pull requests for bcashfs at least anytime soon 00:12:11.643 --> 00:12:15.503 but we don't have any like official explanation as far as i've been able to find. 00:12:16.453 --> 00:12:20.013 So it doesn't it doesn't implicitly mean anything by externally maintained. 00:12:20.233 --> 00:12:23.113 Well, I mean, it surely has some meaning. We can seemingly infer that it's no 00:12:23.113 --> 00:12:27.353 longer being maintained in the kernel, but it did not come with like a description 00:12:27.353 --> 00:12:30.173 or update to the docs around the precise meaning. 00:12:30.353 --> 00:12:34.953 I wonder if you picked up on this. My sense was is so you read Linus and what 00:12:34.953 --> 00:12:39.693 he says, and it kind of sounds like there's been conversations in public and private, he says. 00:12:39.933 --> 00:12:42.193 And you get the sense that maybe everybody's on the same page. 00:12:42.633 --> 00:12:46.533 But then when I went to see what Kent's reaction was, it seemed like maybe that's not the case. 00:12:47.333 --> 00:12:49.713 In fact, it seemed like maybe Kent didn't even really know what was going on. 00:12:49.833 --> 00:12:50.733 Did you get that same picture? 00:12:51.073 --> 00:12:53.153 Yeah, I mean, to look at some of his public comments... 00:12:53.153 --> 00:12:54.613 Again, we should say the author of BcashFS. 00:12:54.793 --> 00:12:58.193 Right. He says things like, I know as much as the rest of you. 00:12:58.493 --> 00:13:00.693 We don't know what externally maintained means, though. 00:13:01.133 --> 00:13:04.633 It's all speculation. As far as I know, it means... What it means hasn't been 00:13:04.633 --> 00:13:07.473 communicated to anyone outside the inner circle. Certainly not me. 00:13:07.613 --> 00:13:11.493 So it seems to say that Kent's seen the update in the source tree in the reporting 00:13:11.493 --> 00:13:15.793 like everyone else, but it wasn't what externally maintained at least and what 00:13:15.793 --> 00:13:18.893 that implies for the future had not been communicated elsewhere. 00:13:20.113 --> 00:13:24.273 I don't know. Brent, do you think it's worth considering users taking action here? 00:13:24.453 --> 00:13:27.793 Like if more of us as users figure out whatever method it might be to use this 00:13:27.793 --> 00:13:32.973 file system, does that put pressure back on the Linux kernel developers to figure 00:13:32.973 --> 00:13:35.873 out a way to incorporate this, even if it is through an ambassador or something? 00:13:36.253 --> 00:13:38.453 Is there some action we can take in that regard, do you think? 00:13:39.573 --> 00:13:45.153 I'm not sure the number of people using it is part of the decision here. 00:13:45.333 --> 00:13:47.313 It seems like a lot of it is just interpersonal... 00:13:49.029 --> 00:13:52.469 challenges we've certainly seen this 00:13:52.469 --> 00:13:55.749 i think on the show as maybe the worst case for 00:13:55.749 --> 00:14:03.709 the file system so i i hope this is like a new status that maybe considers the 00:14:03.709 --> 00:14:08.109 project in some decisions instead of being 100 external and maybe there's a 00:14:08.109 --> 00:14:13.169 chance for it to come back in a year or two but this feels uh like a sad day 00:14:13.169 --> 00:14:14.369 at least that's how i'm feeling. 00:14:14.369 --> 00:14:19.269 I mean it does make it harder to use going forward it does seem like um kent 00:14:19.269 --> 00:14:25.009 and team are already working on publishing some dkms packages so that will definitely 00:14:25.009 --> 00:14:27.289 be an option at some point here in the short term i expect, 00:14:28.069 --> 00:14:32.349 and you know there may be also uh distros that decide to just build custom kernel 00:14:32.349 --> 00:14:36.609 variants with it compiled in or you know there's a few options for um and well 00:14:36.609 --> 00:14:40.869 i think we'll have to see exactly what that looks like on the ground as things move forward yeah. 00:14:40.869 --> 00:14:43.769 He did share recently on friday he 00:14:43.769 --> 00:14:46.849 says quote i think we're approaching a month since the last critical 00:14:46.849 --> 00:14:51.189 bug report that's a milestone things have stabilized faster than i expected 00:14:51.189 --> 00:14:54.769 at least from the look of things that's really good i mean a month since the 00:14:54.769 --> 00:14:57.869 last critical that's a good milestone it's nice that he can keep those things 00:14:57.869 --> 00:15:03.869 in mind i i have a bad habit i tend to completely ignore the successes and just focus on the. 00:15:03.869 --> 00:15:04.649 Next big. 00:15:04.649 --> 00:15:08.049 Thing that has to be fixed and it is good to recognize those kinds of things. 00:15:08.049 --> 00:15:11.489 He did go on in that little update to kind of list a few of that like there's 00:15:11.489 --> 00:15:14.449 a performance bug and accounting bug and a bug with some of the compression 00:15:14.449 --> 00:15:18.189 stuff, but they all seem like normal things you shake out in a file system. 00:15:18.369 --> 00:15:20.349 It sounds like progress is ongoing. So it doesn't seem like, 00:15:20.509 --> 00:15:23.609 at least on the development side, if you are willing to jump now through the 00:15:23.609 --> 00:15:27.329 extra hurdles to actually get access to the file system, it will be continuing 00:15:27.329 --> 00:15:29.049 to be worked on and hopefully stabilize. 00:15:29.589 --> 00:15:35.909 I just find it interesting how different this go-around is with bcachefs than butterfs. 00:15:36.689 --> 00:15:42.229 I think bcachefs has benefited from having somebody who's out there articulating 00:15:42.229 --> 00:15:46.809 the point of view and and if you will i'm sorry the story, 00:15:48.141 --> 00:15:52.481 Even today, if you go on our Linux, you will see a thread that is extremely 00:15:52.481 --> 00:15:57.221 critical of Kent and continues to push the whole narrative of Kent tried to 00:15:57.221 --> 00:16:00.321 push features during an RC window and he's a bad person. 00:16:01.341 --> 00:16:05.541 And it's really unfortunate because it's such a singular view in which you take 00:16:05.541 --> 00:16:08.421 one event and you dismiss a decade of contributions. 00:16:10.561 --> 00:16:15.961 And I think something like BcashFS would be actually a lot worse off right now 00:16:15.961 --> 00:16:18.001 if it weren't for Kent and his communication. 00:16:18.641 --> 00:16:21.281 And while so much of that has been a focus of criticism recently, 00:16:21.601 --> 00:16:26.481 I think if you look at what ButterFS went through and the damage to its brand 00:16:26.481 --> 00:16:31.141 and reputation, even now, even after six or so solid years of continuous improvements, 00:16:31.481 --> 00:16:35.981 its brand is such that people still don't trust it. And they still talk about, 00:16:36.081 --> 00:16:37.161 oh, I'm afraid I'm going to lose data. 00:16:37.621 --> 00:16:41.741 And I think in part it's because there hasn't been anybody out there that's 00:16:41.741 --> 00:16:45.821 a lead ButterFS developer articulating their point of view like Kent does. 00:16:46.701 --> 00:16:51.081 And if you're willing to focus in on the message from Kent and not get distracted 00:16:51.081 --> 00:16:56.341 by clickbaity headlines that tried to drive attention based on kernel drama, 00:16:56.561 --> 00:17:00.461 and you actually focus on the work, it's quite impressive what continues to happen over there. 00:17:00.581 --> 00:17:05.461 And Kent's actually pretty good at articulating that to his community on Reddit and his Patreon. 00:17:05.921 --> 00:17:09.481 And I think part of this is because he is an independent developer. 00:17:10.521 --> 00:17:14.001 So he doesn't have to go through a corporate PR communications, right? 00:17:14.001 --> 00:17:17.181 if Kent goes and talks to somebody about it he doesn't have to get it cleared 00:17:17.181 --> 00:17:23.281 first and so he's able to take direct response and direct action online and 00:17:23.281 --> 00:17:26.241 communicate directly and he's a good communicator and I think that's been criticized 00:17:26.241 --> 00:17:28.301 a lot lately but if you follow him and his community. 00:17:29.490 --> 00:17:33.990 He's very responsive and he's very clear and he's also upfront about what still 00:17:33.990 --> 00:17:38.190 doesn't work and what he's not, he's not blowing smoke. He's not hyping things up. 00:17:38.850 --> 00:17:42.010 I just think it's interesting and I wonder if you agree, Wes, 00:17:42.130 --> 00:17:46.650 that if Butterfess had had somebody that was communicating like Kent is now, 00:17:46.830 --> 00:17:50.890 if perhaps Butterfess's brand, if you will, or reputation maybe is a better 00:17:50.890 --> 00:17:52.490 way to go, would be in a different state. 00:17:53.650 --> 00:17:57.310 Yeah, that seems like a fairly plausible theory. I think Kent is doing a great 00:17:57.310 --> 00:18:01.550 job of being, you know, for folks willing to engage and ask for support of, 00:18:01.810 --> 00:18:05.010 you know, if you have a bug, he will, he will work with you to fix your file system. 00:18:05.230 --> 00:18:09.890 And that's probably goes a long way to getting people to actually try to use 00:18:09.890 --> 00:18:13.110 it for things, you know, knowing that you actually do have some support and 00:18:13.110 --> 00:18:17.550 it's a sort of identifiable human or team of people or whatever behind it that 00:18:17.550 --> 00:18:20.050 you can see consistently do that. 00:18:20.050 --> 00:18:25.610 Brent, I have a question for you. When it comes to defining a code creator being 00:18:25.610 --> 00:18:30.250 too toxic to be allowed in the Linux kernel, do you think it's more or less 00:18:30.250 --> 00:18:34.610 toxic to murder your wife than to criticize ButterFS? 00:18:35.170 --> 00:18:38.850 Well, one is related to the work that's being implemented into the kernel and 00:18:38.850 --> 00:18:42.430 the other isn't. So there's that way to look at it. 00:18:42.570 --> 00:18:47.430 I suppose I'm just saying we kept a murderer's file system in the Linux kernel 00:18:47.430 --> 00:18:49.530 for years after he was convicted of murdering his wife. 00:18:50.050 --> 00:18:52.850 I don't think that should be accepted in society in general, 00:18:52.870 --> 00:18:54.150 if that's really your question. 00:18:54.910 --> 00:18:58.430 I'm just pointing that out. As far as I know, Kent hasn't murdered his wife. 00:18:59.270 --> 00:19:02.310 But, you know, I don't know. Maybe Hans was great to work with on the list. 00:19:02.450 --> 00:19:03.710 Yeah. That's the thing. 00:19:03.830 --> 00:19:04.990 That's the closer to the issue. 00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:05.190 Right? 00:19:05.350 --> 00:19:08.690 Very polite on the mailing list. Even when Linus got nippy, he probably was 00:19:08.690 --> 00:19:09.830 still very polite about it. 00:19:10.150 --> 00:19:15.670 Yeah. But it's interesting that, like, the Linux kernel is one of the most successful 00:19:15.670 --> 00:19:17.310 open source projects in history. 00:19:19.924 --> 00:19:23.424 This kind of shows that it's not necessarily open to everyone, right? 00:19:23.524 --> 00:19:29.024 If you're creating friction in that, well, you might not have the opportunity 00:19:29.024 --> 00:19:32.664 to have your otherwise great code be implemented necessarily. 00:19:32.924 --> 00:19:35.404 As much as it's software, it's also a human endeavor. 00:19:35.404 --> 00:19:41.904 And speaking of benevolent dictators, Google has made it official. 00:19:41.904 --> 00:19:46.844 They are laying down plans to block the sideloading of unverified developers' 00:19:47.104 --> 00:19:50.304 apps starting next year in their Android operating system. 00:19:50.524 --> 00:19:55.224 It's big news, and I've probably been sent this link a dozen times this week, 00:19:55.264 --> 00:19:56.364 and I agree. It's a big story. 00:19:57.284 --> 00:20:02.884 So what they're calling them is unverified apps, which is basically every app 00:20:02.884 --> 00:20:07.064 that you sideload right now. And this is going to impact what are called certified 00:20:07.064 --> 00:20:11.084 Android devices, which is any device that gets any of the Play stuff. 00:20:11.644 --> 00:20:15.084 And so developers who distribute apps outside the Play Store will have to start 00:20:15.084 --> 00:20:20.724 verifying their identity through a new Android developer console that Google is currently building. 00:20:21.424 --> 00:20:24.604 So you can think of it as equivalent to the Google Play console that exists 00:20:24.604 --> 00:20:26.384 for Play Store developers right now. 00:20:26.664 --> 00:20:31.304 But now they're making something they say will be more streamlined for verification. 00:20:31.304 --> 00:20:34.384 So don't worry, it's going to be streamlined, but it'll let you now, 00:20:34.524 --> 00:20:38.304 they're going to let you now publish outside the Play Store if you go through 00:20:38.304 --> 00:20:39.684 this new console that they're building. 00:20:40.024 --> 00:20:43.124 Yeah, it's right there in the name, isn't it? Android developer console. 00:20:43.344 --> 00:20:45.504 They're responsible for all of Android. 00:20:45.784 --> 00:20:49.784 And they will ask you things like your legal name, your address, 00:20:49.964 --> 00:20:53.344 your email, and your phone number, just so that way they can, 00:20:53.604 --> 00:20:55.784 you can have an APK that users can sideload. 00:20:55.784 --> 00:21:03.964 So this starts in October of 2025, and then it goes to broad developer access in March of 2026. 00:21:04.324 --> 00:21:08.744 But the first user rollouts will be in Brazil, Indonesia, and Singapore and 00:21:08.744 --> 00:21:15.544 Thailand, and those start next year in September of 2026, and then go global to all users by 2027. 00:21:16.424 --> 00:21:20.964 So any Android with Google services, which is like basically all the ones sold 00:21:20.964 --> 00:21:23.204 in the West, will be impacted by this. 00:21:23.204 --> 00:21:30.324 And, of course, it is worth noting that this is likely Google's BS response 00:21:30.324 --> 00:21:33.084 to the courts ordering them to allow competing app stores. 00:21:33.684 --> 00:21:37.104 This is what they're going to do is they're essentially taking a page from Apple's 00:21:37.104 --> 00:21:40.644 playbook, and they're going to make it worse while complying with the courts. 00:21:41.664 --> 00:21:45.704 Because, you know, all of a sudden, side loading is this huge risk after all these years. 00:21:45.844 --> 00:21:50.184 We've got to clamp it down. Product VP Susan Faye said that in a recent analysis, 00:21:50.184 --> 00:21:55.524 they found 50 times more malware from Internet sideloaded sources than apps on Google Play. 00:21:55.704 --> 00:21:59.464 I just, is there really this like epidemic of people enabling sideloaded? 00:21:59.764 --> 00:22:01.804 So like most people don't even know that it's enough. 00:22:01.904 --> 00:22:04.124 And that statistic's like they probably scanned all of GitHub. 00:22:04.364 --> 00:22:04.524 Right. 00:22:04.724 --> 00:22:07.524 Every freaking fork of every legitimate thing. And then they compared it to 00:22:07.524 --> 00:22:09.424 like, you know, the 20,000 apps in the Play Store. 00:22:09.604 --> 00:22:09.844 Mm-hmm. 00:22:10.883 --> 00:22:14.043 Many people would also be totally fine with just making it harder to enable, 00:22:14.183 --> 00:22:16.843 put it behind the developer menu or, you know, like there's a fair options to 00:22:16.843 --> 00:22:20.063 make it like where I don't think my mom is going to just do that, 00:22:20.183 --> 00:22:23.943 even when instructed by a malicious actor, or at least has a lot of opportunity 00:22:23.943 --> 00:22:25.303 to second guess that decision. 00:22:25.543 --> 00:22:28.643 That seems like such a reasonable solution, Wes. How dare you? 00:22:29.003 --> 00:22:30.883 I know. I know. it's. 00:22:30.883 --> 00:22:36.483 This this is the worst like example of google no longer following don't be evil 00:22:36.483 --> 00:22:41.443 because it's a cynical response i believe it's a cynical response to what is 00:22:41.443 --> 00:22:44.163 a court order like well if we're going to have to do it we're going to do it 00:22:44.163 --> 00:22:46.763 this way and then they're going to accomplish a wider goal and say but look 00:22:46.763 --> 00:22:47.683 we're just doing what we're told. 00:22:47.683 --> 00:22:50.383 Yeah i mean and you can kind of you can kind of tell 00:22:50.383 --> 00:22:53.263 too right they they see the benefits that apple gets 00:22:53.263 --> 00:22:56.083 from its style of ecosystem i'm sure there's been many internally for 00:22:56.083 --> 00:22:58.803 years who've sort of wondered well maybe is that strategy we should 00:22:58.803 --> 00:23:02.063 be doing and i just think you know i was 00:23:02.063 --> 00:23:05.403 just recommending to someone who was you know they wanted 00:23:05.403 --> 00:23:08.323 to watch youtube but they did not like what they were getting from the algorithm 00:23:08.323 --> 00:23:11.803 and i was like oh there's here's some apps that you can use those are probably 00:23:11.803 --> 00:23:14.123 exactly the kind of thing that maybe even if they don't you know maybe they 00:23:14.123 --> 00:23:18.103 violated terms of service but not the law but if you know if google is not incentivized 00:23:18.103 --> 00:23:23.743 to like them will they stop showing up as something regular people can even try to use it. 00:23:23.743 --> 00:23:28.123 Uh to me it feels like for years and years now well basically since the start 00:23:28.123 --> 00:23:34.983 of android we've all for those of us who really value the privacy side of things 00:23:34.983 --> 00:23:39.383 and the ability to modify the software that's running on your own you know purchased phone, 00:23:40.183 --> 00:23:43.303 we kind of knew this was a possibility at 00:23:43.303 --> 00:23:46.923 least i did and yet maybe it's 00:23:46.923 --> 00:23:50.043 arguable that we haven't done enough to give ourselves great 00:23:50.043 --> 00:23:52.883 options when this would come to 00:23:52.883 --> 00:23:55.843 pass which sounds like we're there we got 00:23:55.843 --> 00:23:58.863 what a year to go so this feels 00:23:58.863 --> 00:24:01.763 like a huge loss in terms of what is 00:24:01.763 --> 00:24:04.483 possible for us to do with our 00:24:04.483 --> 00:24:07.103 own software on our own phones in the future and i 00:24:07.103 --> 00:24:12.223 hope somehow those of us who are smart enough to be able to write software that 00:24:12.223 --> 00:24:19.643 can push on this little decision that uh that we get there i uh feel like that's 00:24:19.643 --> 00:24:23.743 a super important thing from a privacy and also software freedom perspective 00:24:23.743 --> 00:24:26.583 so we could have done better here we are. 00:24:26.583 --> 00:24:28.543 Yeah we should have known better. 00:24:28.543 --> 00:24:32.663 As as jeff says um as much as this makes me angry i'm not that worried as long 00:24:32.663 --> 00:24:36.043 as we can still get rude or roms one way or another and it is worth pointing 00:24:36.043 --> 00:24:39.683 out does seem like you know us graphene folks this won't really impact in the 00:24:39.683 --> 00:24:42.923 same way uh so i think there is still an element of that, 00:24:44.571 --> 00:24:51.091 I'd kind of just worry about the ordinary folks using the platform, 00:24:51.091 --> 00:24:52.571 even if they would never use this. 00:24:53.411 --> 00:24:59.291 It makes things like F-Droid and Obtainium on stock Android perhaps unusable 00:24:59.291 --> 00:25:00.611 and untenable for some developers. 00:25:00.611 --> 00:25:03.431 Or at least a very different experience. And that's where I think it's like, 00:25:03.531 --> 00:25:07.951 okay, even if this first version isn't the world falling apart for Android, 00:25:07.951 --> 00:25:14.311 the philosophy and the change in that and not sort of respecting that at the root is very worrying. 00:25:14.311 --> 00:25:17.891 But the trend is not our friend here. I mean, our previous story that was also 00:25:17.891 --> 00:25:22.311 a step backwards was the news that they've removed pixel device tree drivers 00:25:22.311 --> 00:25:26.031 or whatever it is from the upstream Android source code. 00:25:26.591 --> 00:25:30.871 And so it makes projects like Graphene OS and others more difficult. 00:25:31.191 --> 00:25:37.311 And so these things are in isolation kind of bad. But when you put them all 00:25:37.311 --> 00:25:39.511 together, it starts to paint a picture that's real bad. 00:25:40.091 --> 00:25:43.651 And you worry about the long-term viability of things like Graphene OS. 00:25:44.311 --> 00:25:47.371 Would any of us be shocked to learn that the Pixel 10 is the last one that you 00:25:47.371 --> 00:25:48.551 can ever run Graphene OS on? 00:25:49.031 --> 00:25:52.931 I wouldn't be. And I know the project's concerned about enough that they've 00:25:52.931 --> 00:25:56.791 been trying to work with a hardware OEM to add the hardware support they need 00:25:56.791 --> 00:26:02.191 so that way an existing hardware OEM could enable Graphene OS support. 00:26:02.871 --> 00:26:05.391 Please let it be Motorola. I would love a Motorola flip. 00:26:06.411 --> 00:26:08.171 I'm also a little bored with the Pixel hardware. 00:26:08.571 --> 00:26:11.551 This also kind of sucks in the middle ground too. I was just thinking like, 00:26:11.671 --> 00:26:15.891 okay, you still can use Graphene, But if more things use play integrity and 00:26:15.891 --> 00:26:17.491 stuff, there's already kind of this like, 00:26:17.691 --> 00:26:20.651 well, if there's a certain set of core apps that you have to have, 00:26:20.691 --> 00:26:26.571 you might be forced to be on either iOS or upstream Google, Android. 00:26:27.351 --> 00:26:31.491 Then now if you can't load the other apps that you actually want, that's rough. 00:26:31.751 --> 00:26:37.311 This to me also seems like it's a trend that continues as long as Apple gets 00:26:37.311 --> 00:26:38.291 away with this type of stuff. 00:26:38.471 --> 00:26:41.431 Because Apple, what happens is, 00:26:42.499 --> 00:26:48.099 Oddly and grossly enough, Google's incentives are to align with Apple because 00:26:48.099 --> 00:26:50.359 then they get more control and they set a standard. 00:26:50.539 --> 00:26:53.599 They're the Coke and Pepsi of smartphones in the United States and in the West. 00:26:54.259 --> 00:26:57.819 And if Google says, actually, we've done research and we concur with Apple's 00:26:57.819 --> 00:27:00.299 position here, side loading is dangerous. 00:27:00.579 --> 00:27:05.399 That strengthens both their positions. Google has no incentive to fight this. 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:10.839 And so I think they trend towards Apple's walled garden over time. 00:27:11.879 --> 00:27:17.059 That's my main concern. And if that happens, then why not just get iOS and use 00:27:17.059 --> 00:27:22.319 that fancy iCloud privacy mode that they have and just say screw it? 00:27:22.539 --> 00:27:23.619 It's really disappointing. 00:27:23.859 --> 00:27:26.319 I don't like this trend at all. 00:27:26.739 --> 00:27:29.579 And it seems to me that we're watching 00:27:29.579 --> 00:27:34.399 Android drift more towards the iOS experience over time. Do you agree? 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:41.999 I think I would agree. i'm wondering if for a moment maybe we can try to find 00:27:41.999 --> 00:27:46.359 some kind of positive in this decision is there a positive for end users like 00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:52.159 are there is this an actual problem is this good for somebody other than google. 00:27:52.159 --> 00:27:53.559 I mean there probably. 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:54.639 Is a some slight. 00:27:54.639 --> 00:27:58.979 Security benefit maybe sure you could make the same argument about windows you 00:27:58.979 --> 00:28:01.459 know if microsoft would have done this in the windows xp day, 00:28:01.679 --> 00:28:05.739 you probably would have had less people get malware and crap on Windows XP. 00:28:06.459 --> 00:28:10.919 But Microsoft chose to keep it an open platform and let people install their own applications. 00:28:11.199 --> 00:28:14.719 Because it does, right? It means at least like, okay, if they do find malware 00:28:14.719 --> 00:28:18.959 from a developer, they can then immediately filter out anything else that developers 00:28:18.959 --> 00:28:19.999 made or things like that. 00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:25.719 So in cases of breaches of trust or bad faith developers, that is a new option. 00:28:26.539 --> 00:28:30.599 Okay, I want to bounce this to you guys. And also, I'd say I'm bouncing this to the audience. 00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:35.039 So if you have an opinion and looking for an excuse to support the road trip, 00:28:35.239 --> 00:28:37.999 why is Google rolling this out to the smaller markets first? 00:28:38.439 --> 00:28:39.799 What is the reason there? 00:28:41.046 --> 00:28:42.986 Why not roll it out to the West first? 00:28:43.206 --> 00:28:45.486 Well, it's not even small. I mean, maybe smaller monetary, but it's, 00:28:45.586 --> 00:28:47.586 I mean, by people, it's got to be a lot. 00:28:47.706 --> 00:28:47.846 Yeah. 00:28:48.246 --> 00:28:49.646 Right? I mean, Brazil and Indonesia. 00:28:50.006 --> 00:28:53.666 Yeah. Yeah. I guess so. Yeah. I mean, smaller, I meant an economic size, but yeah. 00:28:54.446 --> 00:28:57.826 You think it's, I just wonder, is it because if things go wrong, 00:28:57.986 --> 00:29:00.386 it'll get less attention in the West? 00:29:00.586 --> 00:29:04.086 I just, what would be the reason for that? I just don't really understand why. 00:29:04.086 --> 00:29:07.746 Is this somewhere where they've seen more malware or more security implications? 00:29:07.926 --> 00:29:10.806 Do they think that culturally it'll be more accepted there? I have no idea. 00:29:11.046 --> 00:29:16.106 Shape some sort of legal precedent first doing it this way? I don't know. 00:29:16.806 --> 00:29:20.226 It's interesting that they don't roll this out everywhere at the same time, 00:29:20.246 --> 00:29:22.746 and it makes me wonder if they're hesitating about the decision. 00:29:23.706 --> 00:29:29.446 Why would you not roll it out? You can still do it in phases, but worldwide. 00:29:29.706 --> 00:29:31.726 So it's interesting to choose certain markets. 00:29:32.186 --> 00:29:38.106 I think the biggest takeaway, red flag here, is the community this impacts the 00:29:38.106 --> 00:29:39.386 most is free software developers. 00:29:39.826 --> 00:29:44.026 Free software developers that don't want a KYC just to publish an Android app. 00:29:44.766 --> 00:29:49.566 Imagine if the three of us used an APK for doing the show, like you put together 00:29:49.566 --> 00:29:53.006 some tiny APK that does automations for us. We would now. 00:29:53.126 --> 00:29:55.026 Now I have to go register and make an account. 00:29:55.146 --> 00:29:57.266 Yeah. And you're on Google's, you're on Google's map now. 00:29:57.446 --> 00:30:00.546 Even if you just wanted to use Obtainium to fetch it from the GitHub that I 00:30:00.546 --> 00:30:01.366 published as open source. 00:30:01.526 --> 00:30:06.026 That sucks. And it fundamentally changes the value proposition of Android because 00:30:06.026 --> 00:30:09.726 it was the, it was, this is going to be a huge deal in businesses, 00:30:10.106 --> 00:30:14.326 small businesses and medium and large businesses have vendors or create their 00:30:14.326 --> 00:30:16.266 own internal APKs all the time. 00:30:16.426 --> 00:30:18.366 That's one of the reasons why Android was a little bit more successful, 00:30:18.366 --> 00:30:19.706 like on manufacturing floors. 00:30:21.006 --> 00:30:25.146 That deal just got changed on you. Surprise, surprise. So like this is the user 00:30:25.146 --> 00:30:28.226 base that gets impacted the most. It's free software and those types of users. 00:30:28.746 --> 00:30:34.386 And it stinks because in another five years, Google could slap a $25 fee on 00:30:34.386 --> 00:30:37.486 there or they could say no for some reason. 00:30:38.186 --> 00:30:42.526 And they in the press release, they talk about one of the reasons they want 00:30:42.526 --> 00:30:45.766 to do this is they want to be able to turn these apps off. 00:30:46.266 --> 00:30:50.106 So if one of them turns out, God forbid, think of the children. 00:30:50.106 --> 00:30:53.026 if one of them turns out that there's an apk out 00:30:53.026 --> 00:30:55.686 there that goes malicious even if you didn't get through the 00:30:55.686 --> 00:30:58.886 play store the core benefit that google gets they can 00:30:58.886 --> 00:31:04.346 still turn it off because they can revoke its cert and when the os runs the 00:31:04.346 --> 00:31:07.966 app now it's checking to see if it has valid certs for all these apps and its 00:31:07.966 --> 00:31:12.346 certification check will fail so your os will refuse to launch the application 00:31:12.346 --> 00:31:15.726 you asked it to because somebody at google hq turned it off. 00:31:15.726 --> 00:31:17.946 Just gross that is bonkers. 00:31:20.412 --> 00:31:21.252 That's where we're at now. 00:31:21.432 --> 00:31:28.372 It gets me questioning whether some smaller open source projects who have chosen 00:31:28.372 --> 00:31:33.172 maybe not to be a part of this larger Google ecosystem at this point, 00:31:33.392 --> 00:31:38.192 if they'll just find a huge, massive drop in users and maybe the project can't 00:31:38.192 --> 00:31:43.092 continue because of these changes, that would be quite a sad thing for these 00:31:43.092 --> 00:31:45.332 smaller projects that many of us rely on. 00:31:45.332 --> 00:31:49.232 This is one of those Google changes where GrapheneOS users and other, 00:31:49.472 --> 00:31:53.872 I think GrapheneOS in particular, because on GrapheneOS, you can still have 00:31:53.872 --> 00:31:58.192 the Google Play services, but they're sandboxed and they run at user level privileges. 00:31:58.532 --> 00:32:02.292 So here we kind of, we get the best of both worlds for once. 00:32:02.492 --> 00:32:04.392 We're not getting something really taken away from us. 00:32:04.652 --> 00:32:08.632 And this doesn't minimize the viability of GrapheneOS. I think this makes GrapheneOS more viable. 00:32:08.632 --> 00:32:12.832 like if you're a small business and you want to get a generic Android device 00:32:12.832 --> 00:32:17.172 like a Pixel and you want something you can publish your own APKs on well maybe 00:32:17.172 --> 00:32:21.152 the solution now is just deploy Graphene OS on there and then install the couple of play apps you do need. 00:32:21.152 --> 00:32:24.272 I would love to see that especially if we get some sort of critical mass to 00:32:24.272 --> 00:32:27.632 be able to pressure some apps to watch what they do with the integrity stuff. 00:32:31.312 --> 00:32:35.792 1password.com slash unplug take the first step to better security for your team 00:32:35.792 --> 00:32:41.172 by securing credentials and protecting every application, even unmanaged shadow IT. 00:32:41.472 --> 00:32:47.932 That's 1Password, the number 1Password.com slash unplugged. 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Just go to 1password.com slash unplugged. 00:35:00.472 --> 00:35:05.112 Well that all being said in good linux unplugged fashion we've been doing well 00:35:05.112 --> 00:35:09.232 wes mostly has been doing crazy things with his android phone just to prove 00:35:09.232 --> 00:35:15.452 i don't know that you can maybe it's your last chance wes what the hell have you been doing what's. 00:35:15.452 --> 00:35:16.972 Going on wes pain. 00:35:16.972 --> 00:35:20.012 Well hey i don't want to throw chris under the bus here because we've both been 00:35:20.012 --> 00:35:26.152 mucking around with it um but We sort of remembered that Android has that Linux terminal now. 00:35:26.472 --> 00:35:30.192 And we did maybe mention it on the show or play with it a tiny bit, but... 00:35:30.666 --> 00:35:34.706 All I had seen is that, oh, Graphene offers it now. I'll install it. 00:35:34.886 --> 00:35:37.966 And then I saw it was a Debian VM, essentially. 00:35:38.306 --> 00:35:41.686 And, oh, yes, I can install Nix in it. And then I didn't really kind of mess with it after that. 00:35:41.866 --> 00:35:46.046 But we thought there's got to be, you know, more we can do with a full, 00:35:46.426 --> 00:35:47.586 proper Linux environment. 00:35:47.786 --> 00:35:53.386 Yeah, who needs their damn Play Store? Who needs their Play API and their authorized apps? 00:35:53.746 --> 00:35:56.346 This probably is something we should have tried earlier, honestly, 00:35:56.486 --> 00:35:58.166 because it's been around since Android 15. 00:35:58.166 --> 00:36:00.726 Yeah, they started plumbing up at least the early bits. 00:36:00.866 --> 00:36:01.766 Yeah, and then it was like a little 00:36:01.766 --> 00:36:05.306 bit later, they had a graphical Linux application, so there's actually... 00:36:05.306 --> 00:36:09.406 I think that's still pending, too. Like, that's, and you need kind of bleeding-edge 16 builds for that. 00:36:09.406 --> 00:36:12.926 And you're going to need Wayland apps for that, too, right? But I think it's 00:36:12.926 --> 00:36:16.086 kind of neat, because it turns your Android device into, potentially, 00:36:16.226 --> 00:36:18.626 a full developer machine. No laptop required. 00:36:18.886 --> 00:36:22.366 You can SSH into it from an existing machine, or bring it right up there on your screen. 00:36:23.026 --> 00:36:24.666 And then eventually play Doom, too. 00:36:24.666 --> 00:36:28.386 Well, the community reaction has been pretty big on this one. 00:36:28.726 --> 00:36:32.346 So finally, Androids can do real dev work. 00:36:32.566 --> 00:36:37.126 People are spinning up Node, Node.js on their phones of all places. 00:36:37.626 --> 00:36:38.046 Love it. 00:36:38.066 --> 00:36:42.446 But of course, there's a caution. Google has a history of kneecapping these 00:36:42.446 --> 00:36:44.146 community tools like Turmux. 00:36:44.346 --> 00:36:49.746 We've seen that. So some see this as a co-optation rather than some empowerment. 00:36:49.986 --> 00:36:51.366 And Wessel let us know how he felt. 00:36:51.966 --> 00:36:52.286 Drama. 00:36:52.286 --> 00:36:57.466 Privacy advocates though um they do worry this funnels developers into google 00:36:57.466 --> 00:37:04.386 controlled sandboxes and leaves um open source projects at a risk of being sidelined i. 00:37:04.386 --> 00:37:06.706 Guess it is technically a uh sandbox. 00:37:06.706 --> 00:37:11.086 I mean that is true yeah i mean it uses the android virtualization framework 00:37:11.086 --> 00:37:16.886 and then it uses um cross vm which is like a super security focused it basically 00:37:16.886 --> 00:37:20.466 takes the role of qemu when you run it on top of kvm it's the virtual machine 00:37:20.466 --> 00:37:24.926 manager or the vmm as they call it and it's the thing that sort of sets everything up and it, 00:37:25.589 --> 00:37:29.049 It's organized around safety first and foremost, as their docs say. 00:37:29.209 --> 00:37:33.429 So you can tell they are trying to get their sandboxing to be at least decent. 00:37:33.729 --> 00:37:35.829 I guess you could say that's Google trying to control things, 00:37:35.889 --> 00:37:37.809 but I think that's just good practices for something like this. 00:37:37.909 --> 00:37:41.729 Yeah, and it's a lot of how the rest of this framework is built to support that, 00:37:41.749 --> 00:37:45.069 and they've been using that tool. They've made it in-house and everything. 00:37:45.889 --> 00:37:49.669 Interestingly, though, as a result, what you actually see when you open this 00:37:49.669 --> 00:37:52.749 terminal app is it looks kind of like a regular terminal interface, 00:37:52.849 --> 00:37:55.369 right? You've got a couple tabs. You can make tabs up at the top, 00:37:55.469 --> 00:37:57.169 and then you get a basic terminal. 00:37:57.449 --> 00:38:01.149 Yeah, and if it's been a minute since you've run it, it even takes a bit to 00:38:01.149 --> 00:38:02.109 get everything started. 00:38:02.209 --> 00:38:02.869 Yeah, it boots it up. 00:38:02.949 --> 00:38:03.109 Yeah. 00:38:03.369 --> 00:38:04.769 That's actually a web terminal. 00:38:05.189 --> 00:38:05.569 What? 00:38:05.789 --> 00:38:10.629 Yeah. Uh-huh, that's a web terminal based on TTYD. So TTYD is running in the 00:38:10.629 --> 00:38:17.109 host, serving that, and then the app connects over HTTPS on port 7681, 00:38:17.369 --> 00:38:20.489 although I think it has a client certificate to authenticate to do that, 00:38:20.489 --> 00:38:23.849 and then it shows you the TTYD web terminal. 00:38:23.949 --> 00:38:25.569 Did you get it working in another web browser? 00:38:26.229 --> 00:38:30.369 No, I have not tried that as yet, but that's, I guess, how the plumbing works under the hood. 00:38:30.589 --> 00:38:33.289 That's cool because that would mean that, in theory, it would be pretty straightforward 00:38:33.289 --> 00:38:37.809 for another developer to come along and build a nicer wrapper around that, 00:38:37.949 --> 00:38:39.669 you know, a better, more powerful user terminal. 00:38:39.789 --> 00:38:41.869 Although it's not a bad terminal for a phone. 00:38:42.169 --> 00:38:45.649 Yeah, I do recommend using something that lets you do external input, 00:38:45.789 --> 00:38:48.049 like, how do you say it, Brent, our favorite tool? 00:38:48.289 --> 00:38:52.089 Is there a source copy? or screws for a screen. 00:38:52.089 --> 00:38:53.589 Copy i don't know screen. 00:38:53.589 --> 00:38:57.589 Screen copy why not just use kd connect guys you make it hard here just use kd connect. 00:38:57.589 --> 00:38:59.929 Well you get full like video mirroring too oh. 00:38:59.929 --> 00:39:00.389 You get video. 00:39:00.389 --> 00:39:02.369 Uh-huh oh you gotta try it. 00:39:02.369 --> 00:39:03.349 Yeah i do. 00:39:03.349 --> 00:39:05.349 You can just do like input control well. 00:39:05.349 --> 00:39:10.989 I didn't need it for what i was doing where i was going we didn't need roads 00:39:10.989 --> 00:39:13.289 but it's quaint that you got it working. 00:39:13.289 --> 00:39:17.549 Uh it is kind of interesting you get presented an ext4 root image um can we 00:39:17.549 --> 00:39:20.149 put bcashfs on i don't know i. 00:39:20.149 --> 00:39:22.889 Mean it's debian so you're gonna remember there's a little bit of a. 00:39:22.889 --> 00:39:25.809 Yeah you do you do have debian i guess there's also 00:39:25.809 --> 00:39:29.089 like it runs a debian service internally that 00:39:29.089 --> 00:39:31.909 talks over grpc and i think part of that is 00:39:31.909 --> 00:39:35.929 there's a they do have like a little demon running in user space it's like a 00:39:35.929 --> 00:39:40.809 helper and it watches for open ports and then it'll prompt you with what you 00:39:40.809 --> 00:39:43.449 want to do with those ports so it'll see apps like you can dynamically open 00:39:43.449 --> 00:39:46.709 a port or whatever you're running and then the interface will pop down with 00:39:46.709 --> 00:39:48.849 the notification asking if you want to prove it and there's like a little it'll 00:39:48.849 --> 00:39:51.009 bring you to a menu where you can toggle each port on and off. 00:39:51.049 --> 00:39:53.069 Yeah in the settings you can go in there and just see all of them listed. 00:39:53.269 --> 00:39:57.849 Now by default that just opens it listening on local host essentially yeah so 00:39:57.849 --> 00:40:02.029 then if you want to do that wider you have to find another app that can do the 00:40:02.029 --> 00:40:05.809 next layer of forwarding to make it actually public to like your local area network. 00:40:05.969 --> 00:40:13.009 Or use ADB on your machine and you can You can map ports using ADB to localhost 00:40:13.009 --> 00:40:14.089 and then just connect to it that way. 00:40:15.784 --> 00:40:18.604 Well, thanks. That's a really fascinating little breakdown of how it works under the hood, Wes. 00:40:19.644 --> 00:40:22.584 I want to hear about what you did, but I'll tell you about my short adventure 00:40:22.584 --> 00:40:24.604 before you get into your ridiculousness, because it's great. 00:40:25.584 --> 00:40:30.924 I decided, why not go all the way? And I found, I believe by a Chinese developer, 00:40:31.044 --> 00:40:35.404 which I'll link in the show notes, a really handy bash script that you download 00:40:35.404 --> 00:40:36.384 in your Android environment. 00:40:36.984 --> 00:40:42.404 And then inside the Linux shell in the Android terminal, it mounts your downloads 00:40:42.404 --> 00:40:44.184 folder to slash mount slash shared. 00:40:44.824 --> 00:40:49.504 And so you go into Mount Shared and you Chmod Plus X, this shell script that 00:40:49.504 --> 00:40:50.944 you just randomly downloaded from a stranger. 00:40:51.444 --> 00:40:55.444 But again, you're in a sandbox. Who really cares? So I run this script. 00:40:55.604 --> 00:40:58.744 And at first, it asks you for your language. The Chinese or English. And I say English. 00:40:59.284 --> 00:41:03.984 And then the next, it's a menu prompt system of what desktop environment would 00:41:03.984 --> 00:41:05.644 you like? And it has Plasma. 00:41:06.204 --> 00:41:10.024 Although, let me tell you, it's not like a minimal version of Plasma. 00:41:10.184 --> 00:41:13.984 It's the full Plasma goodness. So you better resize your disk image because 00:41:13.984 --> 00:41:15.284 it will fill that disk image. 00:41:15.924 --> 00:41:20.504 But it's also got Mate, LXQ, XFCE, which is what I went with. 00:41:20.864 --> 00:41:24.124 Yeah, worth calling out as you say that you can resize. I think it starts at 8 gig. 00:41:24.304 --> 00:41:27.324 There's a menu for that. And then you can also recover and wipe it from that 00:41:27.324 --> 00:41:29.544 same menu if you screw things up like I did several times. 00:41:29.664 --> 00:41:33.644 Yes, because the Plasma install was so long and I was barbecuing and things 00:41:33.644 --> 00:41:36.444 like that, I would walk away from the phone and I would come back. 00:41:36.444 --> 00:41:39.284 And it took longer than 30 minutes and the screen went to sleep because I had 00:41:39.284 --> 00:41:40.764 like caffeine running for 30 minutes. 00:41:41.464 --> 00:41:44.264 screen falls asleep and it kills the entire 00:41:44.264 --> 00:41:49.984 process also i once tabbed away to respond to a message and it killed the entire 00:41:49.984 --> 00:41:55.084 process and because i'm an idiot i was thinking oh well it's a container running 00:41:55.084 --> 00:41:59.684 as a service and this terminal is just a front end so if i swap away it'll continue 00:41:59.684 --> 00:42:03.284 to run in the container in the back in the back end it does not. 00:42:03.284 --> 00:42:07.484 You maybe want to tweak some of its settings because i've had not 100 success 00:42:07.484 --> 00:42:11.484 but i've had a lot of reasonable success with that of having to just run steady 00:42:11.484 --> 00:42:12.184 state in the background. 00:42:12.444 --> 00:42:16.104 Like I've been able to swap like if I'm at the command line and I'm not doing 00:42:16.104 --> 00:42:19.624 anything. I've been able to swap out and then like swipe back to the app and still use it. 00:42:19.804 --> 00:42:23.404 But if I'm in the middle, anytime in the middle of installing packages with 00:42:23.404 --> 00:42:28.744 apt and I swipe out and swipe back, every single time I come back and the app 00:42:28.744 --> 00:42:30.944 process has been killed and I'm just sitting back at the command line. 00:42:31.564 --> 00:42:35.044 I broke dpkg three separate times. 00:42:35.164 --> 00:42:40.624 I had to go in and do the whole configure repair three separate effing times 00:42:40.624 --> 00:42:42.784 because of this. So do be aware of that. 00:42:42.984 --> 00:42:44.224 But is that unusual? 00:42:44.584 --> 00:42:47.984 Feels brittle. Brent, it feels brittle. But the script continues. 00:42:48.104 --> 00:42:51.284 It asks you a few more questions like you need to set up the password for the 00:42:51.284 --> 00:42:57.344 Droid user and then you need to get ADB working on your local host and you can connect it over USB-C. 00:42:58.318 --> 00:43:03.858 And then when the script is done, it spins up a VNC server that's running the 00:43:03.858 --> 00:43:05.538 desktop environment of your choice on your phone. 00:43:05.618 --> 00:43:06.198 Oh, that's great. 00:43:06.358 --> 00:43:07.238 It is really cool. 00:43:07.558 --> 00:43:07.758 So bonkers. 00:43:08.038 --> 00:43:12.878 So this is like an alternative approach, not using the updated Wayland blessed 00:43:12.878 --> 00:43:15.978 path. This is like, well, we got Linux here, so we could just do VNC. 00:43:16.098 --> 00:43:19.658 It works right now. And because you're doing it over USB-C, the performance 00:43:19.658 --> 00:43:20.898 is great because it's local. 00:43:20.898 --> 00:43:26.818 the only requirement of course is you just when you plug in your phone make sure that you have, 00:43:27.538 --> 00:43:30.378 all your udev rules set up and that you have usb debugging and 00:43:30.378 --> 00:43:33.258 all that turned on on the pixel device itself or whatever device you're 00:43:33.258 --> 00:43:36.118 using and then you can run this on any 00:43:36.118 --> 00:43:41.278 android device that has the android terminal and you can get a little gui running 00:43:41.278 --> 00:43:47.078 inside vnc to have like a little private desktop session in there and it's all 00:43:47.078 --> 00:43:50.338 outside the play store other than the terminal app which comes with the phone 00:43:50.338 --> 00:43:54.018 so it felt it felt pretty neat i broke it so many times that it, 00:43:54.638 --> 00:43:57.918 ultimately i'm not going to use it and it felt more like a tech demo but i'd 00:43:57.918 --> 00:43:59.598 love to hear stories of people to get it working yeah. 00:43:59.598 --> 00:44:02.518 I think even in the earlier versions than we're playing with like you kind of 00:44:02.518 --> 00:44:05.278 had to assemble some of the vm config and pass it to it. 00:44:05.278 --> 00:44:09.778 That's gotten a lot easier really it's very simple now because they give you 00:44:09.778 --> 00:44:10.658 all the commands on the github. 00:44:10.658 --> 00:44:12.238 Sounds like mini mech you gave it a try. 00:44:12.238 --> 00:44:19.158 Well not on android in fact i bought um second-hand Chromebook just like a week 00:44:19.158 --> 00:44:23.618 ago and I wanted to test out that Linux container thing. 00:44:23.838 --> 00:44:27.298 By the way, there are some videos on YouTube. If it's the same kind, 00:44:27.558 --> 00:44:32.418 these are simple LXC containers and it's really interesting. 00:44:32.618 --> 00:44:38.098 So the base distribution is in fact Debian and you can install every kind of 00:44:38.098 --> 00:44:42.458 graphical applications and that will show up in the app menu of the Chromebook. 00:44:42.958 --> 00:44:46.958 And that works flawlessly. So I was pretty amazed. I was pretty amazed. 00:44:46.958 --> 00:44:50.318 Yeah, I have seen some speculation. Maybe this is sort of pre-planning as they 00:44:50.318 --> 00:44:51.778 move away from CrimOS and push 00:44:51.778 --> 00:44:54.778 more Android, then now they have this functionality there as well, right? 00:44:54.838 --> 00:44:59.158 That's exactly what this is. You, though, you, Wes, you did the right thing 00:44:59.158 --> 00:45:02.758 and pushed it way beyond anything's reasonable to the point of, 00:45:03.158 --> 00:45:04.618 I think it's actually almost hilarious. 00:45:05.478 --> 00:45:07.938 Tell us what you've done in your Android terminal. 00:45:08.178 --> 00:45:11.238 Well, you know, I heard about some of your apt problems and I thought... 00:45:12.043 --> 00:45:16.203 We really got to get you a better OS in there. And so I did some research to 00:45:16.203 --> 00:45:19.923 see if we could, in fact, get Nix OS in our Android terminal. 00:45:20.143 --> 00:45:25.403 And thanks to the brilliant work of MKG200001, we, in fact, can. 00:45:25.663 --> 00:45:27.943 You got Nix packages running inside the terminal? 00:45:27.943 --> 00:45:30.043 Not just, I mean, you can get Nix packages. It's so easy. 00:45:30.163 --> 00:45:30.883 Oh, you got Nix OS? 00:45:30.883 --> 00:45:31.803 This is Nix OS. 00:45:31.923 --> 00:45:32.663 Oh, my goodness! 00:45:32.943 --> 00:45:36.343 With a regular configuration.nix that you can do a rebuild switch. 00:45:36.763 --> 00:45:37.383 Oh, my. 00:45:37.723 --> 00:45:38.443 Well done, sir. 00:45:38.563 --> 00:45:41.543 And as a test, I am, in fact, running a Jellyfin server. 00:45:42.043 --> 00:45:46.123 that I can connect to with the Jellyfin app on my phone. And you can connect 00:45:46.123 --> 00:45:47.043 to over the land of people. 00:45:47.103 --> 00:45:50.683 So you get Jellyfin server running in the Linux terminal and the Jellyfin client, that's great. 00:45:50.743 --> 00:45:54.063 And it's just services.jellyfin.enabled equals true on the next side. 00:45:54.183 --> 00:45:57.363 And so I've pulled it up here on my machine. On my computer, 00:45:57.563 --> 00:46:06.463 in my web browser, I have Wes's IP, which how are you even getting an IP inside this sandbox? 00:46:06.463 --> 00:46:11.763 So it gets its own internal IP, but it's the double port for it, basically. 00:46:11.763 --> 00:46:14.683 so the app will forward it to local host and then i got another app 00:46:14.683 --> 00:46:17.823 off the play store that can do port forwarding to your local network 00:46:17.823 --> 00:46:22.603 and so then i set that up and so that means that means the phone is yeah it 00:46:22.603 --> 00:46:25.803 is it was pretty straightforward you can also i have um like if you have nebula 00:46:25.803 --> 00:46:30.663 or tailscale or netbird or whatever running inside that works great yeah uh 00:46:30.663 --> 00:46:34.363 even like before the ui would pop up it would connect to that under the hood 00:46:34.363 --> 00:46:36.883 and so i could just ssh in immediately from my laptop and. 00:46:36.883 --> 00:46:42.643 So then jellyfin was in the mesh network yeah that's good it's hilarious so 00:46:42.643 --> 00:46:44.483 you could watch it from your home tv off your android. 00:46:44.483 --> 00:46:47.443 I did that was another test oh that's. 00:46:47.443 --> 00:46:53.463 So cool all right so let's see so i'm going to try to play the big buck bunny video uh famous. 00:46:53.463 --> 00:46:55.783 I've got h top over here so we'll see you'll. 00:46:55.783 --> 00:46:58.403 See yeah i wonder if it does hard it probably doesn't do hardware decoding right 00:46:58.403 --> 00:47:02.343 so we're gonna see if it'll play in my web browser over the land off of the. 00:47:02.343 --> 00:47:06.603 No i Because I think we have like the Virgil style, some sort of virtualized, 00:47:06.623 --> 00:47:08.363 maybe Virgo GPU. I don't know. 00:47:08.443 --> 00:47:10.443 All right, let's see. Tell me what, okay, here we go. I'm hitting play. 00:47:12.249 --> 00:47:14.109 What's your resources look like? 00:47:14.149 --> 00:47:15.149 Looking pretty good so far. 00:47:15.309 --> 00:47:15.449 Really? 00:47:15.609 --> 00:47:17.729 Load average is still .08. 00:47:18.029 --> 00:47:19.189 What's your CPU usage? 00:47:19.429 --> 00:47:20.069 Not much. 00:47:20.429 --> 00:47:21.089 Really? Can I see? 00:47:21.169 --> 00:47:21.389 Yeah. 00:47:24.109 --> 00:47:24.909 Holy crap. 00:47:27.089 --> 00:47:30.809 It must just really just be streaming it over there. It isn't like whatever their MP4 was. 00:47:30.909 --> 00:47:31.569 Because the most. 00:47:31.729 --> 00:47:32.929 We should get a weird web end or something. 00:47:32.929 --> 00:47:36.349 You have one core that's like around 4% to 6% CPU. 00:47:36.769 --> 00:47:40.869 One core out of, sorry to take from, eight cores. so he's got he's got of course 00:47:40.869 --> 00:47:43.929 htop running on there right now and you can see all eight cores of the android 00:47:43.929 --> 00:47:48.689 device while i stream big buck bunny from his freaking nix os running inside 00:47:48.689 --> 00:47:50.569 the android terminal running jellyfin. 00:47:50.569 --> 00:47:54.869 You know what was really impressive about this setup is like they have some 00:47:54.869 --> 00:47:58.469 manual instructions but i think maybe some of that needed like you needed to 00:47:58.469 --> 00:48:02.609 have root because you had like use adb to copy stuff over to replace the stock 00:48:02.609 --> 00:48:08.929 image and stuff But they managed to set up a companion app that I just sideloaded. 00:48:09.149 --> 00:48:11.289 So, you know, that's super handy. 00:48:11.689 --> 00:48:14.669 That did pretty much all the work. Like you open the app, it would download 00:48:14.669 --> 00:48:17.989 their built image and then write it to the right spot. 00:48:18.149 --> 00:48:21.309 And then they would kind of similar, they would expose a script that you could run. 00:48:21.689 --> 00:48:26.289 And then that would do more work. And then, yeah. And then the next time you 00:48:26.289 --> 00:48:29.449 close and open the terminal, it booted into Nix OS. 00:48:29.749 --> 00:48:31.809 It was really easy. Yeah, you should try it. 00:48:31.869 --> 00:48:33.129 So we're going to put a link to that in the show notes. 00:48:33.129 --> 00:48:33.329 Absolutely. 00:48:33.509 --> 00:48:37.069 Okay. We should also put a link to that app you're using to do the port forwarding off of local host. 00:48:37.169 --> 00:48:37.389 Yes. 00:48:37.549 --> 00:48:43.089 That's really nice. This, to me, this makes me feel a little bit better, right? 00:48:43.569 --> 00:48:47.209 This makes me feel a little bit better about the Play Store changes for external 00:48:47.209 --> 00:48:50.389 apps because, or I should say the outside Play Store changes, 00:48:50.609 --> 00:48:52.869 because this is still something you're never going to be able to do. 00:48:52.949 --> 00:48:54.769 Well, maybe, but I don't think you could ever do this on iOS. 00:48:55.189 --> 00:48:56.009 Maybe you could, I don't know. 00:48:56.189 --> 00:48:59.369 You know, actually, even just when I was on the Debian side with Nix installed, I 00:48:59.369 --> 00:49:02.449 was updating a flake totally separate unrelated and 00:49:02.449 --> 00:49:06.649 I realized like I often leave in the a arch 64 support just because you know 00:49:06.649 --> 00:49:10.009 why not but I don't have a machine to test that except yeah now I totally do 00:49:10.009 --> 00:49:14.449 wait so like so instead of having to like do a cross compile on my machine I 00:49:14.449 --> 00:49:19.589 can just do nix builds on my phone to test just as like a smoke test of like does it build on them I. 00:49:19.589 --> 00:49:23.269 Love how casually too you're just like ssh into your phone all the time now and stuff and run it. 00:49:23.269 --> 00:49:25.609 Especially with the mesh it's just so it was so slick. 00:49:26.109 --> 00:49:27.229 That is really cool. 00:49:27.229 --> 00:49:28.529 It starts It's up on boot automatically. 00:49:28.769 --> 00:49:33.049 I kind of want that on my phone. We should set that up. That's pretty great. Well, so there you go. 00:49:33.329 --> 00:49:36.729 That didn't require any kind of verification or signing. We're going to have 00:49:36.729 --> 00:49:39.249 some great links in the show notes this week. 00:49:39.329 --> 00:49:43.569 So head over to linuxunplugged.com slash 630 to get stuff that we're talking 00:49:43.569 --> 00:49:47.229 about, including that bash script that's pretty much just answer the questions 00:49:47.229 --> 00:49:49.569 and let it run if you want to try getting that VNC environment going. 00:49:49.709 --> 00:49:50.609 Yeah, I got to try that one. 00:49:50.709 --> 00:49:51.429 Yeah, it's pretty fun. 00:49:54.644 --> 00:49:58.604 Unraid.net slash unplugged. Unleash your hardware, support the show, 00:49:58.724 --> 00:50:02.024 and check out Unraid at Unraid.net slash unplugged. 00:50:02.104 --> 00:50:06.224 They just wrapped up the big birthday stream. I checked it on it. It was awesome. 00:50:06.324 --> 00:50:08.724 Some really cool rigs people sent in. 00:50:08.944 --> 00:50:13.564 Unraid gives you the flexibility to take advantage of the hardware you have 00:50:13.564 --> 00:50:18.384 today, to build a NAS operating system powered by Linux for those that want 00:50:18.384 --> 00:50:23.244 control, flexibility, and efficiency in managing your data, deploying applications. 00:50:24.004 --> 00:50:28.044 Unraid lets you mix and match drives of any size, and you can build with no 00:50:28.044 --> 00:50:30.924 restrictions, and it supports all the file systems you might want. 00:50:31.104 --> 00:50:33.584 It has fantastic virtual machine 00:50:33.584 --> 00:50:36.724 and container support, and they're always cooking up something new. 00:50:36.784 --> 00:50:43.684 In fact, Unraid OS 7.2.0 Beta 2 launched just a few days ago. 00:50:44.644 --> 00:50:49.124 Really nice refresh to the web GUI. It's nice and fast and responsive. 00:50:50.064 --> 00:50:56.204 Also, you can now do a single sign-on via Unraid or was it OIDC? 00:50:57.304 --> 00:50:59.744 OIDC, I think, because I've never used it, but I can't remember. 00:51:00.124 --> 00:51:03.564 But I think with the bigger deal that's coming in the new 720 that people are 00:51:03.564 --> 00:51:09.404 really going to love to see is ZFS RAIDZ expansion one drive at a time. 00:51:09.844 --> 00:51:11.244 Of course, you've still got Extended 00:51:11.244 --> 00:51:18.164 2, 3, 4, NTFS, XFS, all of the file systems. Maybe not BcacheFS yet. 00:51:19.077 --> 00:51:21.617 But if ever got accepted into the kernel, they would support it because they're 00:51:21.617 --> 00:51:24.877 building on top of modern Linux kernels. 00:51:25.017 --> 00:51:28.637 They also have a built-in API for new tools that I saw some people talking about 00:51:28.637 --> 00:51:33.397 on X that look really cool, including new possibilities for apps and things like that. 00:51:33.537 --> 00:51:36.357 But the thing I want you to really take away about Unraid is it lets you get 00:51:36.357 --> 00:51:38.577 started today with the stuff you have. 00:51:38.657 --> 00:51:42.257 And you can start deploying within a few hours the things we talk about all 00:51:42.257 --> 00:51:43.177 the time here on the show. 00:51:43.337 --> 00:51:46.657 Inside containers, inside virtual machines, you can pass through hardware. 00:51:46.937 --> 00:51:50.617 I recently talked about Frigate. People are using Unraid for Frigate like crazy. 00:51:50.877 --> 00:51:54.177 You know you're always going to have the best virtual machine and container 00:51:54.177 --> 00:51:57.517 support possible with a ton of flexibility for the storage underneath. 00:51:58.017 --> 00:52:02.417 And recently, you know, within the last major release, they also built in wireless 00:52:02.417 --> 00:52:05.897 networking support. So if you're in a situation like me where you can't run 00:52:05.897 --> 00:52:10.477 Ethernet, they have support for that now right out of the box and a ton of great stuff. 00:52:11.017 --> 00:52:14.417 Unraid is always under active development and they have this great path where 00:52:14.417 --> 00:52:16.877 you can check it out. They have the betas and the RC process, 00:52:16.917 --> 00:52:18.897 so you can stay tuned and follow that process. 00:52:19.157 --> 00:52:22.737 And then they have incredibly active community where the people, 00:52:22.857 --> 00:52:24.277 if you have a problem, the people are there, man. 00:52:24.437 --> 00:52:28.377 They are there to help you. They are there to support you, work you through whatever it might be. 00:52:28.797 --> 00:52:32.797 That was one of my biggest surprise takeaways. Besides the amount of applications 00:52:32.797 --> 00:52:37.117 you can deploy, it's just how active and engaged the community is because it 00:52:37.117 --> 00:52:40.097 doesn't just, I mean, it's not just support, right? They're building things too. 00:52:40.877 --> 00:52:44.157 They're building a lot of things that make the Unraid experience even more enjoyable 00:52:44.157 --> 00:52:46.697 for power users. So it doesn't really matter your skill level, though. 00:52:46.897 --> 00:52:50.537 Just get started by going to unraid.net slash unplugged. You take it as far 00:52:50.537 --> 00:52:54.217 as you want. Just unleash the hardware you have with Unraid and support the show. 00:52:54.617 --> 00:52:56.917 Unraid.net slash unplugged. 00:53:00.240 --> 00:53:06.180 Well, we teased last week that there was one last bootleg promo membership and 00:53:06.180 --> 00:53:10.220 listener Woody got it. So congrats to Woody for grabbing that one. 00:53:11.520 --> 00:53:15.160 And that was the entirety of the membership set up. They love a deal. 00:53:15.640 --> 00:53:18.420 People love a deal. I understand. Thank you, though, Woody. 00:53:18.580 --> 00:53:23.000 Appreciate you. Hope you enjoy the bootleg. That's also an option to our new 00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:25.140 members as well as the ad-free version. 00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:28.520 It still has all the producer do's fine touches and lovin's. 00:53:29.120 --> 00:53:32.940 And there's the Jupiter.party membership, which gets you the supports for all 00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:37.580 the shows and gets you the bootlegs of the shows that have the bootlegs. 00:53:38.020 --> 00:53:39.300 It'll make sense once you see it. 00:53:40.500 --> 00:53:45.260 Now, we did get some listener feedback this week. Chris, you figured out how 00:53:45.260 --> 00:53:46.360 to pronounce this one, right? 00:53:46.860 --> 00:53:48.120 This is Poos Baboon. 00:53:48.560 --> 00:53:49.180 Poos Baboon. 00:53:49.700 --> 00:53:53.540 He sent some great feedback. He has been pushing Frigate, which I mentioned 00:53:53.540 --> 00:53:57.640 is the DVR system or NVR system I want to set up. He's been trying it on low-end 00:53:57.640 --> 00:54:01.460 hardware with a Coral, or without a Coral, I should say, and he's been making it work. 00:54:01.560 --> 00:54:05.800 But this is the key thing that I loved, is he says, check out the WANsView W7. 00:54:06.300 --> 00:54:09.460 You can put Thingio on there, we've talked about this before, 00:54:09.520 --> 00:54:15.460 which is an alternative ROM, and you get solid performance, low light visibility, low cost. 00:54:15.700 --> 00:54:17.540 I mean, that sounds nice. 00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:19.840 This thing, Wes, this thing's ridiculous. 00:54:20.940 --> 00:54:24.860 If you buy it directly from WANsView.com, $29.99 for this sucker. 00:54:26.260 --> 00:54:29.280 Oh, that's crazy. And then you can put, you can put a firmware on there that 00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:30.980 lets you do the RTSB streaming, all of that. 00:54:31.100 --> 00:54:34.980 So anyways, just want to say thank you to Baboon for sending that in. 00:54:35.020 --> 00:54:37.700 I'll put links to the goodies he mentioned in his email in the show notes. 00:54:38.700 --> 00:54:42.160 We also got a note from Sebastian here. Hey there. Last week, 00:54:42.240 --> 00:54:45.040 I finally got around to write a Thunderbird add-on. 00:54:45.520 --> 00:54:50.880 Its purpose is to be able to upload documents directly to a paperless NGX instance. 00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:55.600 And it might be something our dear self-hosted enthusiasts appreciate. 00:54:56.160 --> 00:54:58.320 Oh, cool. That's a great idea. 00:54:59.060 --> 00:55:02.580 Really good idea. I mean, how often do important documents and whatnot come 00:55:02.580 --> 00:55:03.780 in via email that you want to save? 00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:12.320 I really think both of you and me are the prime target market for paperless and GX. 00:55:12.620 --> 00:55:13.180 I agree. 00:55:13.700 --> 00:55:16.380 Look at Brent over there with his freaking mobile lifestyle. 00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:20.120 Yeah, who needs paper, right? I use it to start fires and that's actually I 00:55:20.120 --> 00:55:21.220 don't even use it to start fires. 00:55:21.980 --> 00:55:25.520 Paperless upload Thunderbird. We'll put a link to it. It's an add-on for Thunderbird. 00:55:25.620 --> 00:55:27.780 It lets you upload PDF attachments from your emails. 00:55:28.260 --> 00:55:32.200 It does local processing, no third-party servers, simple config to just set 00:55:32.200 --> 00:55:37.800 up your paperless NGX instance, and optional notifications. 00:55:38.580 --> 00:55:41.760 Seamless integration with Thunderbird's UI, and it's MIT as well. 00:55:42.500 --> 00:55:45.600 Well done. Thanks for sending that in. You know, Sebastian, we love it. 00:55:45.680 --> 00:55:47.760 If you make something like that, you build something like that, 00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:49.580 send it in. We'd love to see it. 00:55:55.008 --> 00:56:01.408 And we do have a batch of boosts to get to, and Quirrell94 comes in as our baller at 50,000 sats. 00:56:06.908 --> 00:56:11.108 My AlbiHub was down for a minute while I figured out what was wrong. 00:56:11.468 --> 00:56:13.888 Here's a boost for all the great information you produce. 00:56:16.308 --> 00:56:21.008 Thank you, and coming in kind of last minute, too, helping bring up the average 00:56:21.008 --> 00:56:22.608 on this episode in a big way. 00:56:23.148 --> 00:56:26.848 Thank you there, Karel94. Appreciate that baller boost. 00:56:27.328 --> 00:56:31.088 The dude abides boosts in with 42,000 sats. 00:56:31.168 --> 00:56:32.628 Hey, isn't that the answer to everything? 00:56:35.348 --> 00:56:38.728 Hey, I realized it's been a month since I last boosted. 00:56:39.388 --> 00:56:42.828 Regarding the low boost amounts, I believe it's because of summer vacations. 00:56:42.948 --> 00:56:44.328 At least, that was my case. 00:56:44.408 --> 00:56:47.248 You know what they say. Summertime, it's fun time. 00:56:47.548 --> 00:56:52.268 It's also very hard to keep up when kids are home 24-7, as I'm sure Chris can relate. 00:56:52.268 --> 00:56:56.848 Let me tell you, buddy. Boy, can I. Should have seen me trying to set up this, 00:56:57.088 --> 00:57:00.048 run this bash script on my Android device while I'm just trying to like, 00:57:00.108 --> 00:57:02.808 you know, talk to kids and feed kids. And oh my God, it was a disaster. 00:57:03.648 --> 00:57:06.428 As for the BcashFS drama, I think I agree with you. 00:57:06.988 --> 00:57:10.448 In the end, it's the users that lose. As far as I understand, 00:57:10.748 --> 00:57:13.948 all the talks have been made through the mailing list and various blog posts, right? 00:57:14.428 --> 00:57:17.768 If it were me, I'd schedule at least a video chat or even better, 00:57:17.988 --> 00:57:21.748 try and meet in real life. I'm sure they could figure things out while drinking a beer. 00:57:22.268 --> 00:57:26.028 Oh man, no kidding. If this had gone down at an in-person event, 00:57:26.028 --> 00:57:31.628 it would have taken 25 minutes and we'd have BcacheFS as stable in the kernel with this next release. 00:57:32.768 --> 00:57:33.948 Let that sink in. 00:57:34.268 --> 00:57:37.628 That actually kind of feels like it hurts just a little bit. 00:57:37.928 --> 00:57:41.168 Great point, the dude abides. Appreciate that boost. Good to hear from you. Missed you. 00:57:41.408 --> 00:57:42.128 Excellent abiding. 00:57:43.068 --> 00:57:49.948 Well, Distro Stew boosted in, what is this, a row of sticks? 11,111 sets. 00:57:52.017 --> 00:57:55.957 My Nix configs started from a template I found online, many hosts, 00:57:56.237 --> 00:57:58.737 but all sharing a single flake.lock. 00:57:58.977 --> 00:58:02.017 This seems like common practice when I look at other people's setups, 00:58:02.237 --> 00:58:04.257 but why do you think that is? 00:58:04.757 --> 00:58:08.177 This effectively means that when I update the package versions on one machine, 00:58:08.377 --> 00:58:10.017 I'll do the rest of the machines too. 00:58:10.177 --> 00:58:15.737 I don't really want this, so I'm going to rework my setup, but am I missing something here? 00:58:16.337 --> 00:58:21.337 Well, one of the plus sides and sometimes negative sides of Nix is there's a 00:58:21.337 --> 00:58:25.337 thousand ways to do things and you kind of get to decide the structure yourself. 00:58:25.337 --> 00:58:28.137 That is where things like those templates come in pretty handy to get you a 00:58:28.137 --> 00:58:29.097 structure out of the box. 00:58:29.297 --> 00:58:34.117 But it does mean the template imposes its own thoughts on how much that matters to their setup. 00:58:34.377 --> 00:58:37.737 I think for some people, you know, especially maybe on the stable channels, 00:58:38.157 --> 00:58:41.297 those kinds of, you know, suddenly you're updating everywhere. 00:58:41.857 --> 00:58:44.977 Sometimes it might be a big deal. Sometimes it might not be a big deal. you do 00:58:44.977 --> 00:58:47.977 have some flexibility i think you could definitely have more nix 00:58:47.977 --> 00:58:51.057 packages inputs if you wanted like you could have different ones 00:58:51.057 --> 00:58:53.737 for different machines that you pass through that they use instead of 00:58:53.737 --> 00:58:57.157 all being using the same sharing the same input you could 00:58:57.157 --> 00:59:00.197 also do something with you know git where you 00:59:00.197 --> 00:59:04.157 you know you don't necessarily have to follow all all of the updates or you 00:59:04.157 --> 00:59:07.997 can maintain separate branches or stuff you can also have indirect flakes like 00:59:07.997 --> 00:59:12.437 i have a single flake that i use just to pin stuff that i sort of want to keep 00:59:12.437 --> 00:59:15.397 shared between a common set of projects and I don't put all projects on that 00:59:15.397 --> 00:59:17.397 pin so it's like one more layer of indirection. 00:59:17.817 --> 00:59:21.937 So there's a few different options or you can just split more things up. 00:59:22.357 --> 00:59:26.697 Also with NixOS configurations in particular, you can also move some of your 00:59:26.697 --> 00:59:30.857 stuff into their own modules and then that's a little easier to sort of share 00:59:30.857 --> 00:59:32.637 and pass between multiple flakes. 00:59:33.397 --> 00:59:36.077 I don't know, that's a long Nix ramble, so hopefully any of that's helpful. 00:59:36.217 --> 00:59:38.317 But I'm curious where to go and thank you for sharing your link. 00:59:38.317 --> 00:59:40.437 I always love taking a look at NixConfig links. 00:59:40.677 --> 00:59:47.817 Yeah, thank you Distro Stu. Good to hear from you. Superior's Tom comes in with 3,333 sets. 00:59:50.581 --> 00:59:54.081 He said, Flameshot is the way to go for screenshots. I typically use Spectacle 00:59:54.081 --> 00:59:57.221 on KDE, but Flameshot works great on everything else. Even Windows. 00:59:57.481 --> 00:59:58.461 Oh, I didn't know that. 00:59:58.661 --> 01:00:02.401 I didn't know Flameshot was still around. I think I remember using it, 01:00:02.461 --> 01:00:05.761 but feeling like it had a lot of buttons. It's got a lot. 01:00:05.761 --> 01:00:06.941 There's a lot of functionality. 01:00:07.181 --> 01:00:13.121 A lot of buttons. And I want to draw a box. I want to go to my clipboard. 01:00:13.941 --> 01:00:19.861 That is the only functionality I want. Ideally, it's a PNG. I can live with a JPUG or even a WebP. 01:00:19.861 --> 01:00:23.481 I don't know if you saw a Hyper Shot? 01:00:24.081 --> 01:00:24.401 Yes. 01:00:24.581 --> 01:00:25.161 Have you tried that one? 01:00:25.161 --> 01:00:25.981 From Sending by the Matrix. 01:00:26.181 --> 01:00:26.581 Uh-huh. 01:00:27.401 --> 01:00:30.161 I think that might be the one I go with. I have not yet tried it. 01:00:30.501 --> 01:00:33.281 But, because, you know, I got to play around with, like, my buying key options. 01:00:33.441 --> 01:00:35.321 Because I think I might want one that's, like, a full screenshot. 01:00:36.121 --> 01:00:37.961 And then one that's just, you know, check a box. 01:00:38.301 --> 01:00:40.341 You mean you haven't vibed that in yet? 01:00:40.401 --> 01:00:43.321 No. Although I've made a lot of updates to the Hyper Vibe setup. 01:00:43.501 --> 01:00:46.181 Including a total re-kind of tooling of the way things work. 01:00:47.281 --> 01:00:51.101 So, Superius Tom, I appreciate that. I might use Flameshot until I really lock 01:00:51.101 --> 01:00:52.461 it down, and then maybe I'll just end up keeping using it. 01:00:52.481 --> 01:00:54.961 You know, maybe you should turn your Vibe setup over onto Distress Juice. 01:00:55.221 --> 01:00:56.601 I know. You'd probably have. 01:00:56.621 --> 01:00:57.061 Muck it up for him. 01:00:57.161 --> 01:00:58.861 I think so. I'm down for that. 01:00:59.901 --> 01:01:03.981 Free KVH comes in with 16,944 cents. 01:01:06.061 --> 01:01:11.141 But I can boost the bootleg feed. Ah, yeah, yeah. This is in response to us 01:01:11.141 --> 01:01:13.981 talking about other folks not being able to boost the bootleg feed. 01:01:14.081 --> 01:01:18.781 And Cast-O-Matic is delightfully, has a great implementation that lets you do this. 01:01:19.081 --> 01:01:23.321 because they check the feed itself directly and are not totally relying on the podcast index API. 01:01:23.561 --> 01:01:28.341 Right. Castomatic uses the feed as a source of truth, whereas Fountain is using 01:01:28.341 --> 01:01:32.941 the index API, and because it's a private feed, there is no index API answer. 01:01:33.421 --> 01:01:36.521 But whereas Castomatic can just read, it's right there in the RSS feed. 01:01:36.741 --> 01:01:39.241 That's what Fountain would have to do, is they'd have to implement reading it 01:01:39.241 --> 01:01:40.401 right there from the XML. 01:01:40.741 --> 01:01:43.541 And thank you for boosting us, and for being a member. 01:01:47.001 --> 01:01:51.841 Jordan bravo sent in a row of ducks a 01:01:51.841 --> 01:01:54.841 few years ago i started using distros that are atomic 01:01:54.841 --> 01:01:57.881 aka immutable and i'm never going back 01:01:57.881 --> 01:02:01.181 to the legacy way of doing things unbootable systems 01:02:01.181 --> 01:02:05.441 are a thing of the past i started with silver blue and then moved to nix os 01:02:05.441 --> 01:02:11.641 of course where i have been ever since however blend os looks interesting would 01:02:11.641 --> 01:02:18.421 be great if you all could review it immutable declarative and arch based sounds interesting hmm. 01:02:18.421 --> 01:02:19.121 Yeah. 01:02:19.121 --> 01:02:21.281 I think that is one we've had our eyes on over. 01:02:21.281 --> 01:02:21.841 Time or. 01:02:21.841 --> 01:02:25.101 At least been curious about i haven't super tried it recently. 01:02:25.101 --> 01:02:27.121 The fact that it's still going yeah. 01:02:27.121 --> 01:02:27.801 That's a good sign. 01:02:27.801 --> 01:02:31.841 Probably a sign we should check in on it put it on the list boys brent we put 01:02:31.841 --> 01:02:34.481 that in the future list we should put that in the list you know what i'm saying. 01:02:34.481 --> 01:02:38.421 It's more of a grab bag than a list but i'll throw it in there thank. 01:02:38.421 --> 01:02:40.581 You appreciate that thank you jordan bravo, 01:02:45.764 --> 01:02:50.664 Fuzzy Mistborn comes in also with a Rodex. That's 2,222 sats. 01:02:52.064 --> 01:02:57.124 Frigate is amazing. I wouldn't recommend the Corals anymore, even the PCI version. 01:02:57.284 --> 01:03:00.024 They haven't seen updates in a while and are basically end of life. 01:03:00.464 --> 01:03:02.204 Yet another product killed by Google. 01:03:02.864 --> 01:03:06.404 Instead, though, you can use a GPU for object detection, and it works great. 01:03:06.844 --> 01:03:08.764 Yeah, I've heard folks are even using QuickSync. 01:03:09.364 --> 01:03:10.624 Oh, that's neat. 01:03:10.684 --> 01:03:14.564 Uh-huh. I mean, I'm happy not to buy a Coral, although it is disappointing. 01:03:14.564 --> 01:03:16.284 It seems like it was something people really liked. 01:03:16.584 --> 01:03:19.564 Google buys the company and then kills the freaking product. 01:03:21.104 --> 01:03:25.784 It's getting old. It's getting old. But that is really good to know because, 01:03:25.804 --> 01:03:30.484 honestly, the Odroid, it doesn't have, like, crazy great quick sync, 01:03:30.544 --> 01:03:32.984 but it's got passable quick sync for a couple of cameras. 01:03:33.124 --> 01:03:35.724 I might give that a try if people out there say it's working. 01:03:36.404 --> 01:03:39.344 I've also heard from people that they're using NVIDIA GPUs, too, 01:03:39.404 --> 01:03:40.224 and that I won't be doing. 01:03:40.444 --> 01:03:43.124 Right. Well, not until you get your new framework. 01:03:46.384 --> 01:03:49.804 I wish. I got a Texas Linux Fest to get to. 01:03:51.104 --> 01:03:53.984 Well, 8565 boosts in with 10,000 sets. 01:03:54.084 --> 01:03:54.504 All right. 01:03:57.284 --> 01:04:03.184 I am way behind on boosting. Life has been lifing. Just want to make sure you get some value from me. 01:04:03.304 --> 01:04:03.584 Thank you. 01:04:03.764 --> 01:04:08.504 Since I've ditched my smartphone and carry a flip phone, I don't actually have quick access to boost. 01:04:08.924 --> 01:04:13.964 Just a little update on my disconnect from society. Still rocking the flip phone since November. 01:04:14.224 --> 01:04:14.464 Wow. 01:04:14.564 --> 01:04:17.444 And my Zune is once again my best friend. 01:04:17.764 --> 01:04:20.744 The Zune! I love it! I hope it's brown. 01:04:21.044 --> 01:04:26.124 I upgraded the 30 gig, oh, from a hard drive to a 64 gig SSD. 01:04:26.384 --> 01:04:29.564 Well, that thing's basically going to last forever as long as you have a battery that works. 01:04:29.844 --> 01:04:33.644 And the automatic podcast pull is a lifesaver. That sounds pretty great. 01:04:34.004 --> 01:04:36.624 I do remember. Are you still using, like, the Zune desktop? 01:04:36.624 --> 01:04:39.084 You've got to tell us more about how you're managing this. 01:04:39.204 --> 01:04:40.404 I do remember using it for podcasts. 01:04:40.884 --> 01:04:45.344 I'll get roughly three days of constant play. Honestly, aside from losing podcast 01:04:45.344 --> 01:04:49.064 2.0 features, it has been the biggest life-improving thing I've ever done. 01:04:49.444 --> 01:04:52.864 Thanks for being awesome, and I'm still here listening, even if I'm crazy busy. 01:04:53.044 --> 01:04:54.584 I do. I appreciate that check-in. 01:04:54.724 --> 01:04:55.424 Yeah, totally. 01:04:55.604 --> 01:05:01.124 You know, 8565, too, when life isn't so busy, right, as if, you could take a 01:05:01.124 --> 01:05:05.064 Saturday afternoon and set up AlbiHub, and then you could boost from the podcast index. 01:05:05.904 --> 01:05:07.204 You don't need a mobile app at all. 01:05:08.284 --> 01:05:12.624 I love the flip phone check-in, too, and the Zoom stuff. Want more of that. 01:05:13.424 --> 01:05:15.244 Come back soon. It's good to hear from you. 01:05:15.824 --> 01:05:19.984 Well, door or nail 7887 boosted in 2000 sats. 01:05:21.838 --> 01:05:24.918 It looks like this one's just a whittle boost, they say. 01:05:25.718 --> 01:05:26.818 A whittle boost. 01:05:26.878 --> 01:05:28.118 Just a whittle boost. 01:05:28.298 --> 01:05:33.018 Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Dumb Oz here with 2,000 sets. 01:05:33.578 --> 01:05:37.978 You guys ever actually hit the watch all activity on the Nick's Packages repo? 01:05:38.278 --> 01:05:41.798 Sure gave my inbox a workout. No way. 01:05:43.798 --> 01:05:48.238 People don't appreciate how big that is. It's a whole universe out there. You maniac. 01:05:48.518 --> 01:05:50.358 I love it. All kinds of automated stuff coming through. 01:05:50.958 --> 01:05:54.578 Now what you need to do is throw it into some sort of filter to just sort out 01:05:54.578 --> 01:05:57.398 the stuff you really care about. Might be possible. You never know. 01:05:59.278 --> 01:06:03.158 WH-20,250 boosts in with 8,000 sats. 01:06:05.258 --> 01:06:07.798 A few sats to help you get to Texas Linux Fest. 01:06:07.998 --> 01:06:08.638 Hey, thank you. 01:06:08.718 --> 01:06:08.958 Thank you. 01:06:09.018 --> 01:06:12.718 If you drive jupes down and make an overnight stop in the panhandle, 01:06:12.898 --> 01:06:15.998 I'll throw a brisket on the pit if the timing lines up with my work schedule. 01:06:16.118 --> 01:06:17.158 Oh my gosh, man. 01:06:17.718 --> 01:06:18.498 Now that's an offer. 01:06:18.598 --> 01:06:21.858 Well, we're going to be coming down in my car. It's going to be Wes and I coming 01:06:21.858 --> 01:06:24.238 down the West Coast and Brent coming down the East Coast. 01:06:24.418 --> 01:06:28.338 And then we'll also be together coming up the West Coast. So we will actually have two passes at it. 01:06:28.678 --> 01:06:31.438 You never know. I would be down for that. 01:06:32.738 --> 01:06:38.258 Not having the RV, which was a tough decision, but it means we can pull into driveways. 01:06:38.358 --> 01:06:43.458 We can meet people at restaurants, at places where the RV couldn't pull into. 01:06:43.578 --> 01:06:45.878 So there's some perks to it that I'm going to embrace. 01:06:46.478 --> 01:06:48.198 So we'll try to stay in touch. It's a great idea. 01:06:48.198 --> 01:06:51.358 A dude is trying stuff for 10,000 sats. 01:06:53.878 --> 01:06:59.558 Did I hear the words useful and self-hosted? Take my money. 01:07:00.038 --> 01:07:06.418 Also, was that a sneaky self-hosted podcast sound effect at the end of the last one password ad read? 01:07:07.458 --> 01:07:07.978 Never. 01:07:09.298 --> 01:07:14.618 I'm on to you, fellas. Thanks for the nod. And I'm attending my first Texas 01:07:14.618 --> 01:07:16.698 Linux Fest this year, and I hope to see you there. 01:07:17.038 --> 01:07:20.598 Oh, right on it, dude. Yes, we'll be there one way or another. 01:07:20.898 --> 01:07:22.078 Very excited. Thank you. 01:07:22.998 --> 01:07:25.318 Looking for that. If you're making it and you boost in, let us know. 01:07:25.798 --> 01:07:27.718 We want to shake your hand. That's for sure. 01:07:28.518 --> 01:07:32.498 Right now, virtual shake to everybody who boosted in, including those of you 01:07:32.498 --> 01:07:34.338 who come in under the 2000 sat cutoff. 01:07:34.418 --> 01:07:37.078 We really appreciate it. And of course, our sat streamers too. 01:07:37.218 --> 01:07:37.478 Oh yeah. 01:07:37.678 --> 01:07:41.538 We had 18 of you sat stream. As we did the episode last week, 01:07:41.618 --> 01:07:48.298 you just sat streamed and you stacked 31,165 sats. When you combine that with 01:07:48.298 --> 01:07:52.238 our boosters, we got a little low this week, but I'm still really grateful. 01:07:55.118 --> 01:07:59.818 193,663 sats. And here's the good news. Sats are on sale again, boys. 01:08:00.018 --> 01:08:04.418 So go out, support the show, get Fountain FM and get us to Texas so we can do 01:08:04.418 --> 01:08:07.258 our unique style of coverage while you support the show. 01:08:08.421 --> 01:08:12.801 And, you know, it's also just a lot of fun to read your messages above 2000 01:08:12.801 --> 01:08:14.841 sats and we'll read them on the show. I love that, too. 01:08:15.221 --> 01:08:17.961 Of course, you can do it the whole self-hosted route with something like AlbiHub 01:08:17.961 --> 01:08:22.501 and there's a whole plethora of apps at podcastapps.com. 01:08:22.661 --> 01:08:25.561 If you're on iOS, Castomatic is really great. 01:08:26.401 --> 01:08:31.861 Also, a brand new app doesn't support boost yet, but it has a bunch of podcasting 2.0 features. Podhome. 01:08:32.761 --> 01:08:34.061 There's a Podhome app now. 01:08:34.161 --> 01:08:34.741 Is that right? 01:08:35.041 --> 01:08:38.501 And if you pay, you'd love this, Wes. If you become a premium member, 01:08:39.301 --> 01:08:42.161 Barry has integrated pod pings, live streams. 01:08:42.321 --> 01:08:45.601 So you can, it's just a, it's just a stream of podcasts that are getting published 01:08:45.601 --> 01:08:49.261 right there in the app. I paid just for that. 01:08:49.541 --> 01:08:53.241 Anyways, thank you everybody who supports the show. 01:08:53.581 --> 01:08:56.641 We really do appreciate it. If it's a membership, if it's a boost, 01:08:56.801 --> 01:09:00.561 if it's word of mouth, it really does make a difference. And that's why the 01:09:00.561 --> 01:09:04.701 show continues to go so many years later and has become the world's largest 01:09:04.701 --> 01:09:06.881 Linux podcast is because of your support. 01:09:07.021 --> 01:09:13.821 I mean it, and we appreciate it. So with that, let's get you a pick and get you out of here. 01:09:14.701 --> 01:09:17.661 So let's say this is pronounced Cavisto. 01:09:18.541 --> 01:09:19.521 Cavisto, what do you think? 01:09:21.201 --> 01:09:21.681 Cavitzo? 01:09:21.981 --> 01:09:22.461 Cavitzo? 01:09:22.881 --> 01:09:24.101 What do you think, Brett? 01:09:24.981 --> 01:09:28.821 Cavitzo? You guys are missing that sits in there. There's S-I-T-S. 01:09:29.061 --> 01:09:34.521 Okay, let's go. Cavitzo, I'm sorry we have to do this. But it's worth it. 01:09:34.521 --> 01:09:37.041 It is a little bit different. 01:09:37.561 --> 01:09:43.021 It is a search focused approach to an Android launcher, but with a bias towards 01:09:43.021 --> 01:09:47.861 beautiful placement of widgets in kind of a list view. 01:09:48.241 --> 01:09:52.901 So this replaces the stock launcher and you can pin your favorite apps to the top. 01:09:53.814 --> 01:09:56.814 it also supports gestures and one of the things that i like about this especially 01:09:56.814 --> 01:10:00.234 if you're coming from ios is it's it's competitive 01:10:00.234 --> 01:10:03.574 with apple's integrated search and launch functionality which 01:10:03.574 --> 01:10:06.374 somehow bafflingly so google has yet to rip 01:10:06.374 --> 01:10:12.914 off it strikes me as user hostile that a you have to swipe from the bottom up 01:10:12.914 --> 01:10:16.934 in just the right way because one way is your app switcher and the other way 01:10:16.934 --> 01:10:21.494 is a call to home and then the other way pulls up your app drawer and then because 01:10:21.494 --> 01:10:24.214 they're absolutely monsters that design this UI, 01:10:24.214 --> 01:10:28.654 it doesn't default to the search being active. 01:10:29.574 --> 01:10:35.494 So you have to tap the search and then start typing. It's crazy. 01:10:35.834 --> 01:10:39.834 I have in person seen your rage around this particular lack of feature. 01:10:40.054 --> 01:10:41.094 It's very entertaining. 01:10:41.354 --> 01:10:44.334 So you can imagine I have completely switched to this launcher now because you 01:10:44.334 --> 01:10:49.134 swipe down briefly, quickly in a natural gesture and it brings up the launcher 01:10:49.134 --> 01:10:53.754 defaulting to switch and are defaulting to search it's a super fast search well. 01:10:53.754 --> 01:10:56.194 This is nice i just installed it sideloaded it in fact. 01:10:56.194 --> 01:10:58.194 Yes i installed it through obtainium yeah. 01:10:58.194 --> 01:10:58.794 It was easy. 01:10:58.794 --> 01:11:01.774 Uh it also the search you can have it trigger to search for the 01:11:01.774 --> 01:11:06.054 web or google or other things and i really like the combination of pin favorite 01:11:06.054 --> 01:11:09.534 apps plus it figures out the apps you use most recently you can have multiple 01:11:09.534 --> 01:11:12.754 tabs in there and it has really great search and then when you go to the home 01:11:12.754 --> 01:11:17.714 screen it's all my heads up information with my widgets really nicely laid out 01:11:17.714 --> 01:11:21.254 you do have to kind of get go in there and mess with them a little bit to get them to look good. 01:11:21.614 --> 01:11:26.414 When you do, it's just beautiful. It's very fast and actually gives me more 01:11:26.414 --> 01:11:29.614 information just glancing at my screen than traditionally. 01:11:29.914 --> 01:11:33.934 And so with this combined with Graphene OS and something like Obtainium, 01:11:34.474 --> 01:11:37.034 it truly honestly feels like my phone. 01:11:37.874 --> 01:11:42.754 A lot of times when I use a modern phone, it feels like I'm using Apple's experience 01:11:42.754 --> 01:11:45.994 or I'm using Google's products and I'm kind of like renting it. 01:11:47.133 --> 01:11:50.693 But when you go with Graphene OS and you sideload your apps with Obtainium and 01:11:50.693 --> 01:11:56.693 F-Droid, and you replace the launcher with this thing, it is a unique experience 01:11:56.693 --> 01:11:59.073 that has nothing that feels like Google on it. 01:11:59.273 --> 01:12:02.673 And this is a truly better way to launch applications, especially if you're 01:12:02.673 --> 01:12:09.453 a maniac like me, that really has five to ten core apps I use on the regular. 01:12:09.773 --> 01:12:12.273 You know, maybe five, really, ten. 01:12:12.653 --> 01:12:15.233 And yet my phone has nearly 300 apps installed on it. 01:12:15.993 --> 01:12:19.733 because I might use them one day. I might need that app, and when I might need 01:12:19.733 --> 01:12:22.453 it, I don't want to be in a place where I can't get it because of a low signal, 01:12:23.173 --> 01:12:24.713 so I'm going to have it installed just in case. 01:12:26.233 --> 01:12:28.573 This makes sorting through all of that so much better. Also, 01:12:28.673 --> 01:12:31.433 focusing on the apps I do use, focusing on the information in the widgets I 01:12:31.433 --> 01:12:33.373 do use, it's really nice. 01:12:33.573 --> 01:12:38.393 You don't have to be on Graphene OS, but the combination, it feels like true freedom. 01:12:40.433 --> 01:12:42.233 And it's GPL 3.0. 01:12:44.893 --> 01:12:49.513 that's great i think if you tried it and you really try it for three or four days i'm. 01:12:49.513 --> 01:12:51.133 Gonna switch right now and just see. 01:12:51.133 --> 01:12:55.013 See if it sticks i think you will like it i i really is a little different it 01:12:55.013 --> 01:12:58.873 took me playing around with it and messing with the widgets and now i've been 01:12:58.873 --> 01:13:03.933 using it yeah i think it's like middle of last week and i'm totally i'm forever now what. 01:13:03.933 --> 01:13:04.873 Do you think will you give it a go. 01:13:06.728 --> 01:13:10.648 You know, I think I've used this one in the past. I was like very, very, 01:13:10.948 --> 01:13:14.608 very unhappy with, um, I think it was a launcher that came with like a, 01:13:14.808 --> 01:13:19.728 I don't know, Motorola phone or something like that and was doing the deep dive 01:13:19.728 --> 01:13:22.508 on basically installed every single alternative launcher. 01:13:22.588 --> 01:13:25.248 And I think this was one of them. And I think it made like the top three for me. 01:13:25.428 --> 01:13:29.248 So I'll give it another shot. I mean, it has Chris's blessing. 01:13:29.528 --> 01:13:31.268 So it might not be that bad. 01:13:31.488 --> 01:13:35.468 I recommend, you know, um, you got to kind of like go in and like recrop the 01:13:35.468 --> 01:13:39.188 widgets and stuff for like some of the apps, but I really like it. 01:13:39.468 --> 01:13:43.548 What would you say is the minimum number of days to give it a proper try? 01:13:44.428 --> 01:13:45.008 Probably three. 01:13:45.748 --> 01:13:46.608 Oh, I'm in then. 01:13:47.348 --> 01:13:49.948 Unless you use your phone a lot, but yeah, I'd say probably three. 01:13:50.368 --> 01:13:53.008 Yeah. Give it a shot. We'll put a link in the show notes. I think you're going to like it. 01:13:53.528 --> 01:13:57.308 I was surprised by it. And I'm, you know, I was like, I'll just give this a 01:13:57.308 --> 01:14:01.068 quick try because Wes shared an article where it just got like a really brief mention. 01:14:02.228 --> 01:14:04.228 And I was like, while I was reading the article, I'm like, wait a minute, 01:14:04.308 --> 01:14:05.188 I'm going to go try that out. 01:14:05.188 --> 01:14:08.068 Yeah, it was someone talking about, I mean, really just why they were going 01:14:08.068 --> 01:14:11.168 to continue to be using Graphene OS into the future, which was great to see 01:14:11.168 --> 01:14:13.228 in general. And, yeah, it turns out they had some good tips. 01:14:13.328 --> 01:14:16.268 Yeah, just ironically, that was not the focus, but that was my takeaway. 01:14:16.548 --> 01:14:18.928 Yeah, threw in the end. Well, the rest we kind of already agreed on. 01:14:19.068 --> 01:14:24.068 Yeah, I suppose that's probably true. And, you know, so from now on, 01:14:24.108 --> 01:14:24.948 that's my launcher choice. 01:14:25.588 --> 01:14:29.728 And we'll put a link to it in the show notes at linuxunplugged.com slash 630. 01:14:30.608 --> 01:14:32.748 All right, well, that's going to wrap us up right there, boys. 01:14:32.748 --> 01:14:35.248 We're going to get out of here. And I want to remind everybody that we are trying 01:14:35.248 --> 01:14:38.188 to put together some funds to get to Texas Linux Fest. 01:14:38.448 --> 01:14:44.248 We may have news about, like, meetup locations and swag and things like that midweek. 01:14:44.368 --> 01:14:47.748 So keep an eye out on the Jupyter Garage for that type of stuff. 01:14:48.128 --> 01:14:50.948 Hopefully be in the work soon. And then we have more details about, 01:14:51.048 --> 01:14:52.348 like, when we're actually going to be in Austin. 01:14:52.348 --> 01:14:55.288 I imagine we'll put something up on our meetup.com slash Jupyter broadcasting 01:14:55.288 --> 01:14:59.508 page. So if you're going to be at Texas Linux Fest I'd say right now at this 01:14:59.508 --> 01:15:03.328 stage The two top tips I would have Would be A. Let us know, 01:15:04.669 --> 01:15:07.629 And get in the Texas LinuxFest Matrix chat room. I think we have one of those. 01:15:08.029 --> 01:15:09.869 We should probably put a link to that in the show notes, boys. 01:15:10.669 --> 01:15:12.909 What else do they need to know if they're going to? Oh, meetup.com slash Jupyter 01:15:12.909 --> 01:15:14.989 Broadcasting, I suppose. That's probably it. 01:15:15.589 --> 01:15:19.649 That'll probably be it. All right. Well, I don't want to leave, but it is that time. 01:15:23.409 --> 01:15:27.909 I hate to leave you, but then again, I love sitting down and getting to do it 01:15:27.909 --> 01:15:29.509 all over again. So come back. 01:15:29.649 --> 01:15:30.669 We will be here next week. 01:15:30.669 --> 01:15:34.349 That's right. For 631. Wes, there's probably some power user features they should know about. 01:15:34.349 --> 01:15:37.509 Yeah, do you not like some of the stuff we talk about? Or you just can't wait 01:15:37.509 --> 01:15:39.569 to hear our take or bad take on something? 01:15:39.809 --> 01:15:42.149 Or did we name something and you want to hear what it was again? 01:15:42.469 --> 01:15:46.489 Yeah, well, we have two things for you. One is transcripts for the whole darn 01:15:46.489 --> 01:15:50.169 show, so you can see everything we say, or at least what the AI guesses we said, 01:15:50.229 --> 01:15:51.869 which is pretty close most of the time. 01:15:53.009 --> 01:15:56.949 And then we also have chapters, which get the more human touch in our, 01:15:57.089 --> 01:16:00.269 you know, probably the easiest way to just jump right to the content you want. 01:16:00.469 --> 01:16:03.329 Yep. All right, thank you for being here. Of course, you can join us next week. 01:16:03.329 --> 01:16:05.849 We have the details at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar. 01:16:06.869 --> 01:16:10.089 And we'll see you next Sunday, as in Tuesday.