Chris: Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris.
Wes: My name is Wes.
Brent: And my name is Brent.
Chris: Hello, gentlemen. Well, coming up on the show today, it appears Google is laying
Chris: the groundwork to start locking down sideloading on Android.
Chris: You can imagine we have some thoughts on that news. So what we'll do is we'll
Chris: push Wes's pixel further than Google ever imagined or dreamed possible.
Chris: Then we'll round out the show with some great boosts and picks and a lot more.
Chris: So before we get to all of that, let's start by saying time-appropriate greetings
Chris: to our mumble room. Hello, Virtual Log.
Mumble: Hello there. Hello, Brent.
Chris: Hello. And hello, everybody up there in the quiet listening,
Chris: too. Got a good showing up there as well.
Chris: Of course, we're doing this here podcast live on a Sunday. We start around 10 a.m.
Chris: Pacific time, but you can get that converted to jupiterbroadcasting.com slash
Chris: calendar. Or here's a pro tip.
Chris: Use the podcasting 2.0 app, and it'll just be right there in your list.
Chris: Easy peasy. And a big thank you to Defined Networking at Defined.net slash unplugged.
Chris: Go meet Managed Nebula from Defined Networking.
Chris: They took the brilliant, beautiful, fully open source Nebula Mesh VPN network
Chris: and built this product around that anyone can use.
Chris: It's Managed Nebula, a decentralized VPN built on what we think is the best
Chris: open source Mesh VPN platform.
Chris: And the entire stack is optimized for speed, simplicity, and industry-leading security.
Chris: Slack has been using it since day one, but we hear more and more stories from
Chris: you out there in the audience using it to point it on your home labs or for
Chris: work or whatever it is, and as a result, keep sending them in.
Chris: We've been seeing some pretty cool tools sent into the network,
Chris: but this one was actually made by one of our own.
Chris: Deckbot, listener Deckbot, has made Nebulous CertMaker, a simple YAML and Python
Chris: script to create certificates for all of your mesh nodes.
Chris: So I think, Wes, the way it works is it looks like you have a list of all your hosts.
Chris: It'll walk through that list and create a new Nebula certificate and generate
Chris: and sign the certificates for each one of the hosts in that file.
Wes: Exactly, yes. Like Nebula itself provides the primitives for managing the certs
Wes: and all that kind of thing.
Wes: And you can build on top of it. And DeckBot has, which is awesome.
Wes: And we're seeing more and more of that, which is great to see.
Chris: Shout out to DeckBot for making something just real simple but really useful.
Chris: And the nice thing about Nebula is when you deploy Nebula, you are in control.
Chris: You can run the entire infrastructure. It's not bits of it that are kind of
Chris: like this weird fork and you can kind of run part of the infrastructure.
Chris: No, you can run all of it or you can take advantage of their managed product.
Chris: Go right now to define.net slash unplugged and get 100 hosts absolutely free.
Chris: Take advantage of top tier encryption. Take advantage of the leading industry
Chris: product that is lean, mean, and fast on your host.
Chris: 100 hosts absolutely free. No credit card required. Go to define.net slash unplugged.
Chris: Okay, it's on. It's definitely on. Texas Linux Festival, October 3rd through
Chris: the 4th in Austin, Texas, at the Commons Conference Center in Austin.
Chris: We're all road tripping. Brent's coming down from the East Coast,
Chris: coming down in the van to Texas.
Chris: And Wes and I are going to load into my car and road trip down on the West Coast.
Chris: So we'll be coming down individual coasts at the same time. That's kind of cool.
Wes: So meet us there, why don't you?
Brent: Coast to coast.
Chris: Coast to coast Texas Linux Fest. We don't have swag yet, but we will probably
Chris: midweek have some Texas Linux Fest swag in the Jupyter Garage.
Chris: So I'll put a link in the show notes.
Chris: So midweek after this came out, go check that out. So, you know,
Chris: the first week of September.
Chris: And once again, I'm going to be coming to you asking to help us get there with some boosts.
Chris: We're in conversation with one potential sponsor, but it hasn't really gotten
Chris: anywhere yet. And I'm not sure it will in time for us to make it to Texas Linux
Chris: Fest. So we're going to self-finance this one way or another.
Chris: My hope is that we can get some boosts that come in. And then what we're going
Chris: to do, and the reason why the boosts are going to be useful,
Chris: is I'll be completely frank with you.
Chris: I'm going to throw them into a loan. I'm not going to sell them.
Chris: I'm going to throw them into a loan.
Chris: And if somehow for something happened and the price crashed and we got margin
Chris: call, it's fine. It's the same as selling them then.
Chris: But we're going to put them into a loan. We're going to do that to finance our
Chris: ability to get down to Texas Linux Fest.
Chris: Now, Chris, why would you do something like that? That's crazy.
Chris: I am really committed to trying to cover these events in a way.
Chris: I know this sounds sort of, well, you know, sort of self, self, um, I don't know.
Chris: It's sort of, it's not a brag, but I just, I feel strongly that if these events don't get covered.
Chris: And they're not streamed online or anything like that. It's like it's in a way
Chris: they don't really happen except for in this small little pocket.
Chris: And they don't make often a huge impact outside of that.
Chris: And these are really unique to the Linux community. These fests that are put
Chris: together by just volunteers that care about Linux and free software.
Chris: And it's a real pain in the butt. And they go through all of the work.
Chris: A year-long job. Every year.
Wes: Without the, you know, corporate style of it kind of budget or time allocation or anything like that.
Chris: Constantly trying to juggle venues and budgets and networking and community expectations.
Chris: And they put together something that brings us together across different cultures
Chris: and different beliefs. But we come together around Linux and free software.
Chris: And the connections you make there are truly like they take something maybe
Chris: like somebody you've known online. You meet them in person and they become true friendships.
Chris: And it's not just about the networking these are
Chris: really special events and they're unique to our community
Chris: they're unique to our culture other things
Chris: they have their kind of community events but nothing's like a linux fest and
Chris: i feel really strongly that it's one of the things the show can do as a contribution
Chris: to the linux community at whole is try to document and capture these things
Chris: as they happen and then they become part of the show's tapestry over time so
Chris: five years you listen and back,
Chris: you know, you can hear the 2025 Texas Linux Fest. It's a time capsule.
Chris: And then the difference of us going and not going is the difference of that
Chris: getting covered and getting captured.
Chris: And plus, we meet our fellow community members there.
Chris: It's our opportunity and our chance to actually convert numbers on a dashboard
Chris: to real faces. And it gives us this kind of motivation that you just don't get
Chris: scrolling social media and reading the email feedback.
Chris: So it's probably one of the most expensive things we do and probably one of
Chris: the most important things we do.
Chris: And, you know, screw me if I have yet to figure out a way to really make a profit
Chris: at it. But it's still something I feel is extremely important we do.
Chris: And it's also a form of genuine, unique content and journalism.
Chris: I think that's kind of maybe don't call it that, but it's in the category of we're going there.
Chris: We're doing original reporting that isn't being covered anywhere else.
Chris: We're capturing something that's unique to our community, and we have an inherent
Chris: expertise and understanding on the topic matter and on the culture and of the people,
Chris: so we're perfectly positioned to cover it and capture it.
Chris: So it just feels like it's extremely important to me that we actually do this.
Chris: And I felt this way for years, but it's really been crystallized in the last couple of years.
Chris: But that doesn't mean there's commercial interest in there. There's not a lot
Chris: of companies that are going to make a lot of money financing that.
Chris: Now, there's some that want to do it, but it hasn't materialized yet.
Chris: But I think it's important, and I would like your help if you would like to
Chris: boost in and help us get there.
Chris: We're going to take those sats. We're going to throw them in a SALT loan.
Chris: There is a margin of insurance there.
Chris: And then we're going to use that to finance it to get us down there.
Chris: And then I'm going to pay it off probably myself personally over the next year
Chris: or so. Or we'll sell the SALT, whatever we have to do.
Chris: But it gives us some optionality. We have the option to or not to sell them.
Chris: So it gives us flexibility there.
Chris: And when it's in that SALT loan, we'll have cash that we can use to get our
Chris: butts down there and rent hotels and whatever else we have to do.
Chris: so that's the goal it's a bit ambitious and we only have until the end of this
Chris: month really next month september to do it because i think by my math we need to hit the road,
Chris: by september 28th so the episode we do on september 28th we basically after
Chris: the episode we pack up and we hit the road.
Wes: Well we got to get there because i got the good news that my talk was accepted
Wes: so i'll be sharing an updated version of my mesh networking on nix os talk.
Chris: Well, now we got a mission. We got to get Wes to Texas Linux Fest so he can
Chris: give us a talk. And then we'll meet up with Brent.
Chris: He'll be there in his van at Texas Linux Fest, and we'll hang out in Austin
Chris: with you guys and with Brent and everybody.
Chris: And then we're going to caravan back up to the Pacific Northwest in my car and Brent's van.
Wes: Operation Homeward Bound.
Chris: Yeah. So it's super ambitious, but we hope, we hope, we hope you will help us
Chris: with that. You can send us a boost. The easiest way to do it is Fountain FM.
Chris: Now, again, the reason why we're doing boosts is because we're going to be using
Chris: that in a particular way.
Chris: So Fountain FM is probably the most straightforward way to do it because they
Chris: self-host all that infrastructure.
Chris: Now, if you can't do that or you don't want to participate in that,
Chris: later in the week, we should have some Texas LinuxFest swag up in the Jupyter
Chris: Garage at JupyterGarage.com.
Chris: And, you know, inflation has hit the prices of swag. I was complaining to the
Chris: boys that even like before we price it, these things are ridiculous.
Chris: list, but we'll try to keep it reasonable, but something in there that can still
Chris: put some fuel in the tank and whatnot.
Chris: And we'll have that up at jupytergarage.com, which could be another way.
Chris: And just anybody that does even consider it. Thank you very much.
Chris: So it's a wild thing we're doing here, making a Linux podcast for a very niche
Chris: audience, caring about these kinds of esoteric things.
Chris: There's not a lot of people out there that get it. So if you're one of them,
Chris: we really appreciate you.
Chris: Well, we wanted to follow up on the Bcash FS saga, as it has now been officially
Chris: marked as externally maintained by Linus Torvalds,
Chris: which means essentially Bcash FS has lost its seat at the dinner table and it's
Chris: going to go sit at the kids table again,
Chris: which is a big shift since it was really,
Chris: really close to being declared stable.
Chris: But Linus has officially moved it from the supported category to,
Chris: quote, externally maintained in the kernel's maintainer's file.
Chris: Now, you guys know if you've been listening to the show, this is after months
Chris: of back and forth that sort of broke down after Linux 6.17 and have led to this.
Wes: Yeah, as Linus said in his commit, as per many long discussion threads, public and private.
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: But we don't know a ton about exactly what that means. I did take a little peek
Wes: in the maintainer's file. it has a self-description on like this status line,
Wes: which could be supported, which is someone is actually paid to look after this,
Wes: could be maintained, which is somebody actually looks after it.
Wes: Then there's odd fixes, there's orphan, and there's obsolete listed there.
Wes: But then if you actually go grep in the file, there's a few more things that
Wes: you find like an orphan slash obsolete, some specific references to different architectures.
Wes: There's also one that's called buried alive in reporters, which is actually
Wes: what is listed at the very bottom under the arrest which has linus listed as the maintainer what.
Chris: Is buried under alive in reporters does that mean air reports or does that mean media.
Wes: I think people you know talking to him he's basically the person
Wes: of last resort you know yeah yeah but in
Wes: there there's only right so standing out as a single entry
Wes: is this externally maintained and there's no real other references i could find
Wes: in the kernel source really so at this point i don't know what it means exactly
Wes: in terms of like official status obviously it seems to be implied that linus
Wes: is not intending to accept any pull requests for bcashfs at least anytime soon
Wes: but we don't have any like official explanation as far as i've been able to find.
Chris: So it doesn't it doesn't implicitly mean anything by externally maintained.
Wes: Well, I mean, it surely has some meaning. We can seemingly infer that it's no
Wes: longer being maintained in the kernel, but it did not come with like a description
Wes: or update to the docs around the precise meaning.
Chris: I wonder if you picked up on this. My sense was is so you read Linus and what
Chris: he says, and it kind of sounds like there's been conversations in public and private, he says.
Chris: And you get the sense that maybe everybody's on the same page.
Chris: But then when I went to see what Kent's reaction was, it seemed like maybe that's not the case.
Chris: In fact, it seemed like maybe Kent didn't even really know what was going on.
Chris: Did you get that same picture?
Wes: Yeah, I mean, to look at some of his public comments...
Chris: Again, we should say the author of BcashFS.
Wes: Right. He says things like, I know as much as the rest of you.
Wes: We don't know what externally maintained means, though.
Wes: It's all speculation. As far as I know, it means... What it means hasn't been
Wes: communicated to anyone outside the inner circle. Certainly not me.
Wes: So it seems to say that Kent's seen the update in the source tree in the reporting
Wes: like everyone else, but it wasn't what externally maintained at least and what
Wes: that implies for the future had not been communicated elsewhere.
Chris: I don't know. Brent, do you think it's worth considering users taking action here?
Chris: Like if more of us as users figure out whatever method it might be to use this
Chris: file system, does that put pressure back on the Linux kernel developers to figure
Chris: out a way to incorporate this, even if it is through an ambassador or something?
Chris: Is there some action we can take in that regard, do you think?
Brent: I'm not sure the number of people using it is part of the decision here.
Brent: It seems like a lot of it is just interpersonal...
Brent: challenges we've certainly seen this
Brent: i think on the show as maybe the worst case for
Brent: the file system so i i hope this is like a new status that maybe considers the
Brent: project in some decisions instead of being 100 external and maybe there's a
Brent: chance for it to come back in a year or two but this feels uh like a sad day
Brent: at least that's how i'm feeling.
Wes: I mean it does make it harder to use going forward it does seem like um kent
Wes: and team are already working on publishing some dkms packages so that will definitely
Wes: be an option at some point here in the short term i expect,
Wes: and you know there may be also uh distros that decide to just build custom kernel
Wes: variants with it compiled in or you know there's a few options for um and well
Wes: i think we'll have to see exactly what that looks like on the ground as things move forward yeah.
Chris: He did share recently on friday he
Chris: says quote i think we're approaching a month since the last critical
Chris: bug report that's a milestone things have stabilized faster than i expected
Chris: at least from the look of things that's really good i mean a month since the
Chris: last critical that's a good milestone it's nice that he can keep those things
Chris: in mind i i have a bad habit i tend to completely ignore the successes and just focus on the.
Wes: Next big.
Chris: Thing that has to be fixed and it is good to recognize those kinds of things.
Wes: He did go on in that little update to kind of list a few of that like there's
Wes: a performance bug and accounting bug and a bug with some of the compression
Wes: stuff, but they all seem like normal things you shake out in a file system.
Wes: It sounds like progress is ongoing. So it doesn't seem like,
Wes: at least on the development side, if you are willing to jump now through the
Wes: extra hurdles to actually get access to the file system, it will be continuing
Wes: to be worked on and hopefully stabilize.
Chris: I just find it interesting how different this go-around is with bcachefs than butterfs.
Chris: I think bcachefs has benefited from having somebody who's out there articulating
Chris: the point of view and and if you will i'm sorry the story,
Chris: Even today, if you go on our Linux, you will see a thread that is extremely
Chris: critical of Kent and continues to push the whole narrative of Kent tried to
Chris: push features during an RC window and he's a bad person.
Chris: And it's really unfortunate because it's such a singular view in which you take
Chris: one event and you dismiss a decade of contributions.
Chris: And I think something like BcashFS would be actually a lot worse off right now
Chris: if it weren't for Kent and his communication.
Chris: And while so much of that has been a focus of criticism recently,
Chris: I think if you look at what ButterFS went through and the damage to its brand
Chris: and reputation, even now, even after six or so solid years of continuous improvements,
Chris: its brand is such that people still don't trust it. And they still talk about,
Chris: oh, I'm afraid I'm going to lose data.
Chris: And I think in part it's because there hasn't been anybody out there that's
Chris: a lead ButterFS developer articulating their point of view like Kent does.
Chris: And if you're willing to focus in on the message from Kent and not get distracted
Chris: by clickbaity headlines that tried to drive attention based on kernel drama,
Chris: and you actually focus on the work, it's quite impressive what continues to happen over there.
Chris: And Kent's actually pretty good at articulating that to his community on Reddit and his Patreon.
Chris: And I think part of this is because he is an independent developer.
Chris: So he doesn't have to go through a corporate PR communications, right?
Chris: if Kent goes and talks to somebody about it he doesn't have to get it cleared
Chris: first and so he's able to take direct response and direct action online and
Chris: communicate directly and he's a good communicator and I think that's been criticized
Chris: a lot lately but if you follow him and his community.
Chris: He's very responsive and he's very clear and he's also upfront about what still
Chris: doesn't work and what he's not, he's not blowing smoke. He's not hyping things up.
Chris: I just think it's interesting and I wonder if you agree, Wes,
Chris: that if Butterfess had had somebody that was communicating like Kent is now,
Chris: if perhaps Butterfess's brand, if you will, or reputation maybe is a better
Chris: way to go, would be in a different state.
Wes: Yeah, that seems like a fairly plausible theory. I think Kent is doing a great
Wes: job of being, you know, for folks willing to engage and ask for support of,
Wes: you know, if you have a bug, he will, he will work with you to fix your file system.
Wes: And that's probably goes a long way to getting people to actually try to use
Wes: it for things, you know, knowing that you actually do have some support and
Wes: it's a sort of identifiable human or team of people or whatever behind it that
Wes: you can see consistently do that.
Chris: Brent, I have a question for you. When it comes to defining a code creator being
Chris: too toxic to be allowed in the Linux kernel, do you think it's more or less
Chris: toxic to murder your wife than to criticize ButterFS?
Brent: Well, one is related to the work that's being implemented into the kernel and
Brent: the other isn't. So there's that way to look at it.
Chris: I suppose I'm just saying we kept a murderer's file system in the Linux kernel
Chris: for years after he was convicted of murdering his wife.
Brent: I don't think that should be accepted in society in general,
Brent: if that's really your question.
Chris: I'm just pointing that out. As far as I know, Kent hasn't murdered his wife.
Wes: But, you know, I don't know. Maybe Hans was great to work with on the list.
Chris: Yeah. That's the thing.
Brent: That's the closer to the issue.
Wes: Right?
Chris: Very polite on the mailing list. Even when Linus got nippy, he probably was
Chris: still very polite about it.
Brent: Yeah. But it's interesting that, like, the Linux kernel is one of the most successful
Brent: open source projects in history.
Brent: This kind of shows that it's not necessarily open to everyone, right?
Brent: If you're creating friction in that, well, you might not have the opportunity
Brent: to have your otherwise great code be implemented necessarily.
Wes: As much as it's software, it's also a human endeavor.
Chris: And speaking of benevolent dictators, Google has made it official.
Chris: They are laying down plans to block the sideloading of unverified developers'
Chris: apps starting next year in their Android operating system.
Chris: It's big news, and I've probably been sent this link a dozen times this week,
Chris: and I agree. It's a big story.
Chris: So what they're calling them is unverified apps, which is basically every app
Chris: that you sideload right now. And this is going to impact what are called certified
Chris: Android devices, which is any device that gets any of the Play stuff.
Chris: And so developers who distribute apps outside the Play Store will have to start
Chris: verifying their identity through a new Android developer console that Google is currently building.
Chris: So you can think of it as equivalent to the Google Play console that exists
Chris: for Play Store developers right now.
Chris: But now they're making something they say will be more streamlined for verification.
Chris: So don't worry, it's going to be streamlined, but it'll let you now,
Chris: they're going to let you now publish outside the Play Store if you go through
Chris: this new console that they're building.
Wes: Yeah, it's right there in the name, isn't it? Android developer console.
Wes: They're responsible for all of Android.
Chris: And they will ask you things like your legal name, your address,
Chris: your email, and your phone number, just so that way they can,
Chris: you can have an APK that users can sideload.
Chris: So this starts in October of 2025, and then it goes to broad developer access in March of 2026.
Chris: But the first user rollouts will be in Brazil, Indonesia, and Singapore and
Chris: Thailand, and those start next year in September of 2026, and then go global to all users by 2027.
Chris: So any Android with Google services, which is like basically all the ones sold
Chris: in the West, will be impacted by this.
Chris: And, of course, it is worth noting that this is likely Google's BS response
Chris: to the courts ordering them to allow competing app stores.
Chris: This is what they're going to do is they're essentially taking a page from Apple's
Chris: playbook, and they're going to make it worse while complying with the courts.
Chris: Because, you know, all of a sudden, side loading is this huge risk after all these years.
Chris: We've got to clamp it down. Product VP Susan Faye said that in a recent analysis,
Chris: they found 50 times more malware from Internet sideloaded sources than apps on Google Play.
Wes: I just, is there really this like epidemic of people enabling sideloaded?
Wes: So like most people don't even know that it's enough.
Chris: And that statistic's like they probably scanned all of GitHub.
Wes: Right.
Chris: Every freaking fork of every legitimate thing. And then they compared it to
Chris: like, you know, the 20,000 apps in the Play Store.
Wes: Mm-hmm.
Wes: Many people would also be totally fine with just making it harder to enable,
Wes: put it behind the developer menu or, you know, like there's a fair options to
Wes: make it like where I don't think my mom is going to just do that,
Wes: even when instructed by a malicious actor, or at least has a lot of opportunity
Wes: to second guess that decision.
Brent: That seems like such a reasonable solution, Wes. How dare you?
Wes: I know. I know. it's.
Chris: This this is the worst like example of google no longer following don't be evil
Chris: because it's a cynical response i believe it's a cynical response to what is
Chris: a court order like well if we're going to have to do it we're going to do it
Chris: this way and then they're going to accomplish a wider goal and say but look
Chris: we're just doing what we're told.
Wes: Yeah i mean and you can kind of you can kind of tell
Wes: too right they they see the benefits that apple gets
Wes: from its style of ecosystem i'm sure there's been many internally for
Wes: years who've sort of wondered well maybe is that strategy we should
Wes: be doing and i just think you know i was
Wes: just recommending to someone who was you know they wanted
Wes: to watch youtube but they did not like what they were getting from the algorithm
Wes: and i was like oh there's here's some apps that you can use those are probably
Wes: exactly the kind of thing that maybe even if they don't you know maybe they
Wes: violated terms of service but not the law but if you know if google is not incentivized
Wes: to like them will they stop showing up as something regular people can even try to use it.
Brent: Uh to me it feels like for years and years now well basically since the start
Brent: of android we've all for those of us who really value the privacy side of things
Brent: and the ability to modify the software that's running on your own you know purchased phone,
Brent: we kind of knew this was a possibility at
Brent: least i did and yet maybe it's
Brent: arguable that we haven't done enough to give ourselves great
Brent: options when this would come to
Brent: pass which sounds like we're there we got
Brent: what a year to go so this feels
Brent: like a huge loss in terms of what is
Brent: possible for us to do with our
Brent: own software on our own phones in the future and i
Brent: hope somehow those of us who are smart enough to be able to write software that
Brent: can push on this little decision that uh that we get there i uh feel like that's
Brent: a super important thing from a privacy and also software freedom perspective
Brent: so we could have done better here we are.
Chris: Yeah we should have known better.
Wes: As as jeff says um as much as this makes me angry i'm not that worried as long
Wes: as we can still get rude or roms one way or another and it is worth pointing
Wes: out does seem like you know us graphene folks this won't really impact in the
Wes: same way uh so i think there is still an element of that,
Wes: I'd kind of just worry about the ordinary folks using the platform,
Wes: even if they would never use this.
Chris: It makes things like F-Droid and Obtainium on stock Android perhaps unusable
Chris: and untenable for some developers.
Wes: Or at least a very different experience. And that's where I think it's like,
Wes: okay, even if this first version isn't the world falling apart for Android,
Wes: the philosophy and the change in that and not sort of respecting that at the root is very worrying.
Chris: But the trend is not our friend here. I mean, our previous story that was also
Chris: a step backwards was the news that they've removed pixel device tree drivers
Chris: or whatever it is from the upstream Android source code.
Chris: And so it makes projects like Graphene OS and others more difficult.
Chris: And so these things are in isolation kind of bad. But when you put them all
Chris: together, it starts to paint a picture that's real bad.
Chris: And you worry about the long-term viability of things like Graphene OS.
Chris: Would any of us be shocked to learn that the Pixel 10 is the last one that you
Chris: can ever run Graphene OS on?
Chris: I wouldn't be. And I know the project's concerned about enough that they've
Chris: been trying to work with a hardware OEM to add the hardware support they need
Chris: so that way an existing hardware OEM could enable Graphene OS support.
Chris: Please let it be Motorola. I would love a Motorola flip.
Chris: I'm also a little bored with the Pixel hardware.
Wes: This also kind of sucks in the middle ground too. I was just thinking like,
Wes: okay, you still can use Graphene, But if more things use play integrity and
Wes: stuff, there's already kind of this like,
Wes: well, if there's a certain set of core apps that you have to have,
Wes: you might be forced to be on either iOS or upstream Google, Android.
Wes: Then now if you can't load the other apps that you actually want, that's rough.
Chris: This to me also seems like it's a trend that continues as long as Apple gets
Chris: away with this type of stuff.
Chris: Because Apple, what happens is,
Chris: Oddly and grossly enough, Google's incentives are to align with Apple because
Chris: then they get more control and they set a standard.
Chris: They're the Coke and Pepsi of smartphones in the United States and in the West.
Chris: And if Google says, actually, we've done research and we concur with Apple's
Chris: position here, side loading is dangerous.
Chris: That strengthens both their positions. Google has no incentive to fight this.
Chris: And so I think they trend towards Apple's walled garden over time.
Chris: That's my main concern. And if that happens, then why not just get iOS and use
Chris: that fancy iCloud privacy mode that they have and just say screw it?
Chris: It's really disappointing.
Chris: I don't like this trend at all.
Chris: And it seems to me that we're watching
Chris: Android drift more towards the iOS experience over time. Do you agree?
Brent: I think I would agree. i'm wondering if for a moment maybe we can try to find
Brent: some kind of positive in this decision is there a positive for end users like
Brent: are there is this an actual problem is this good for somebody other than google.
Chris: I mean there probably.
Wes: Is a some slight.
Chris: Security benefit maybe sure you could make the same argument about windows you
Chris: know if microsoft would have done this in the windows xp day,
Chris: you probably would have had less people get malware and crap on Windows XP.
Chris: But Microsoft chose to keep it an open platform and let people install their own applications.
Wes: Because it does, right? It means at least like, okay, if they do find malware
Wes: from a developer, they can then immediately filter out anything else that developers
Wes: made or things like that.
Wes: So in cases of breaches of trust or bad faith developers, that is a new option.
Chris: Okay, I want to bounce this to you guys. And also, I'd say I'm bouncing this to the audience.
Chris: So if you have an opinion and looking for an excuse to support the road trip,
Chris: why is Google rolling this out to the smaller markets first?
Chris: What is the reason there?
Chris: Why not roll it out to the West first?
Wes: Well, it's not even small. I mean, maybe smaller monetary, but it's,
Wes: I mean, by people, it's got to be a lot.
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: Right? I mean, Brazil and Indonesia.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I guess so. Yeah. I mean, smaller, I meant an economic size, but yeah.
Chris: You think it's, I just wonder, is it because if things go wrong,
Chris: it'll get less attention in the West?
Chris: I just, what would be the reason for that? I just don't really understand why.
Wes: Is this somewhere where they've seen more malware or more security implications?
Wes: Do they think that culturally it'll be more accepted there? I have no idea.
Chris: Shape some sort of legal precedent first doing it this way? I don't know.
Brent: It's interesting that they don't roll this out everywhere at the same time,
Brent: and it makes me wonder if they're hesitating about the decision.
Brent: Why would you not roll it out? You can still do it in phases, but worldwide.
Brent: So it's interesting to choose certain markets.
Chris: I think the biggest takeaway, red flag here, is the community this impacts the
Chris: most is free software developers.
Chris: Free software developers that don't want a KYC just to publish an Android app.
Chris: Imagine if the three of us used an APK for doing the show, like you put together
Chris: some tiny APK that does automations for us. We would now.
Wes: Now I have to go register and make an account.
Chris: Yeah. And you're on Google's, you're on Google's map now.
Wes: Even if you just wanted to use Obtainium to fetch it from the GitHub that I
Wes: published as open source.
Chris: That sucks. And it fundamentally changes the value proposition of Android because
Chris: it was the, it was, this is going to be a huge deal in businesses,
Chris: small businesses and medium and large businesses have vendors or create their
Chris: own internal APKs all the time.
Chris: That's one of the reasons why Android was a little bit more successful,
Chris: like on manufacturing floors.
Chris: That deal just got changed on you. Surprise, surprise. So like this is the user
Chris: base that gets impacted the most. It's free software and those types of users.
Chris: And it stinks because in another five years, Google could slap a $25 fee on
Chris: there or they could say no for some reason.
Chris: And they in the press release, they talk about one of the reasons they want
Chris: to do this is they want to be able to turn these apps off.
Chris: So if one of them turns out, God forbid, think of the children.
Chris: if one of them turns out that there's an apk out
Chris: there that goes malicious even if you didn't get through the
Chris: play store the core benefit that google gets they can
Chris: still turn it off because they can revoke its cert and when the os runs the
Chris: app now it's checking to see if it has valid certs for all these apps and its
Chris: certification check will fail so your os will refuse to launch the application
Chris: you asked it to because somebody at google hq turned it off.
Brent: Just gross that is bonkers.
Chris: That's where we're at now.
Brent: It gets me questioning whether some smaller open source projects who have chosen
Brent: maybe not to be a part of this larger Google ecosystem at this point,
Brent: if they'll just find a huge, massive drop in users and maybe the project can't
Brent: continue because of these changes, that would be quite a sad thing for these
Brent: smaller projects that many of us rely on.
Chris: This is one of those Google changes where GrapheneOS users and other,
Chris: I think GrapheneOS in particular, because on GrapheneOS, you can still have
Chris: the Google Play services, but they're sandboxed and they run at user level privileges.
Chris: So here we kind of, we get the best of both worlds for once.
Chris: We're not getting something really taken away from us.
Chris: And this doesn't minimize the viability of GrapheneOS. I think this makes GrapheneOS more viable.
Chris: like if you're a small business and you want to get a generic Android device
Chris: like a Pixel and you want something you can publish your own APKs on well maybe
Chris: the solution now is just deploy Graphene OS on there and then install the couple of play apps you do need.
Wes: I would love to see that especially if we get some sort of critical mass to
Wes: be able to pressure some apps to watch what they do with the integrity stuff.
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Brent: Well that all being said in good linux unplugged fashion we've been doing well
Brent: wes mostly has been doing crazy things with his android phone just to prove
Brent: i don't know that you can maybe it's your last chance wes what the hell have you been doing what's.
Chris: Going on wes pain.
Wes: Well hey i don't want to throw chris under the bus here because we've both been
Wes: mucking around with it um but We sort of remembered that Android has that Linux terminal now.
Wes: And we did maybe mention it on the show or play with it a tiny bit, but...
Wes: All I had seen is that, oh, Graphene offers it now. I'll install it.
Wes: And then I saw it was a Debian VM, essentially.
Wes: And, oh, yes, I can install Nix in it. And then I didn't really kind of mess with it after that.
Wes: But we thought there's got to be, you know, more we can do with a full,
Wes: proper Linux environment.
Chris: Yeah, who needs their damn Play Store? Who needs their Play API and their authorized apps?
Chris: This probably is something we should have tried earlier, honestly,
Chris: because it's been around since Android 15.
Wes: Yeah, they started plumbing up at least the early bits.
Chris: Yeah, and then it was like a little
Chris: bit later, they had a graphical Linux application, so there's actually...
Wes: I think that's still pending, too. Like, that's, and you need kind of bleeding-edge 16 builds for that.
Chris: And you're going to need Wayland apps for that, too, right? But I think it's
Chris: kind of neat, because it turns your Android device into, potentially,
Chris: a full developer machine. No laptop required.
Chris: You can SSH into it from an existing machine, or bring it right up there on your screen.
Chris: And then eventually play Doom, too.
Brent: Well, the community reaction has been pretty big on this one.
Brent: So finally, Androids can do real dev work.
Brent: People are spinning up Node, Node.js on their phones of all places.
Chris: Love it.
Brent: But of course, there's a caution. Google has a history of kneecapping these
Brent: community tools like Turmux.
Brent: We've seen that. So some see this as a co-optation rather than some empowerment.
Brent: And Wessel let us know how he felt.
Chris: Drama.
Brent: Privacy advocates though um they do worry this funnels developers into google
Brent: controlled sandboxes and leaves um open source projects at a risk of being sidelined i.
Chris: Guess it is technically a uh sandbox.
Wes: I mean that is true yeah i mean it uses the android virtualization framework
Wes: and then it uses um cross vm which is like a super security focused it basically
Wes: takes the role of qemu when you run it on top of kvm it's the virtual machine
Wes: manager or the vmm as they call it and it's the thing that sort of sets everything up and it,
Wes: It's organized around safety first and foremost, as their docs say.
Wes: So you can tell they are trying to get their sandboxing to be at least decent.
Chris: I guess you could say that's Google trying to control things,
Chris: but I think that's just good practices for something like this.
Wes: Yeah, and it's a lot of how the rest of this framework is built to support that,
Wes: and they've been using that tool. They've made it in-house and everything.
Wes: Interestingly, though, as a result, what you actually see when you open this
Wes: terminal app is it looks kind of like a regular terminal interface,
Wes: right? You've got a couple tabs. You can make tabs up at the top,
Wes: and then you get a basic terminal.
Chris: Yeah, and if it's been a minute since you've run it, it even takes a bit to
Chris: get everything started.
Wes: Yeah, it boots it up.
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: That's actually a web terminal.
Chris: What?
Wes: Yeah. Uh-huh, that's a web terminal based on TTYD. So TTYD is running in the
Wes: host, serving that, and then the app connects over HTTPS on port 7681,
Wes: although I think it has a client certificate to authenticate to do that,
Wes: and then it shows you the TTYD web terminal.
Chris: Did you get it working in another web browser?
Wes: No, I have not tried that as yet, but that's, I guess, how the plumbing works under the hood.
Chris: That's cool because that would mean that, in theory, it would be pretty straightforward
Chris: for another developer to come along and build a nicer wrapper around that,
Chris: you know, a better, more powerful user terminal.
Chris: Although it's not a bad terminal for a phone.
Wes: Yeah, I do recommend using something that lets you do external input,
Wes: like, how do you say it, Brent, our favorite tool?
Brent: Is there a source copy? or screws for a screen.
Wes: Copy i don't know screen.
Chris: Screen copy why not just use kd connect guys you make it hard here just use kd connect.
Wes: Well you get full like video mirroring too oh.
Chris: You get video.
Wes: Uh-huh oh you gotta try it.
Chris: Yeah i do.
Wes: You can just do like input control well.
Chris: I didn't need it for what i was doing where i was going we didn't need roads
Chris: but it's quaint that you got it working.
Wes: Uh it is kind of interesting you get presented an ext4 root image um can we
Wes: put bcashfs on i don't know i.
Chris: Mean it's debian so you're gonna remember there's a little bit of a.
Wes: Yeah you do you do have debian i guess there's also
Wes: like it runs a debian service internally that
Wes: talks over grpc and i think part of that is
Wes: there's a they do have like a little demon running in user space it's like a
Wes: helper and it watches for open ports and then it'll prompt you with what you
Wes: want to do with those ports so it'll see apps like you can dynamically open
Wes: a port or whatever you're running and then the interface will pop down with
Wes: the notification asking if you want to prove it and there's like a little it'll
Wes: bring you to a menu where you can toggle each port on and off.
Chris: Yeah in the settings you can go in there and just see all of them listed.
Wes: Now by default that just opens it listening on local host essentially yeah so
Wes: then if you want to do that wider you have to find another app that can do the
Wes: next layer of forwarding to make it actually public to like your local area network.
Chris: Or use ADB on your machine and you can You can map ports using ADB to localhost
Chris: and then just connect to it that way.
Chris: Well, thanks. That's a really fascinating little breakdown of how it works under the hood, Wes.
Chris: I want to hear about what you did, but I'll tell you about my short adventure
Chris: before you get into your ridiculousness, because it's great.
Chris: I decided, why not go all the way? And I found, I believe by a Chinese developer,
Chris: which I'll link in the show notes, a really handy bash script that you download
Chris: in your Android environment.
Chris: And then inside the Linux shell in the Android terminal, it mounts your downloads
Chris: folder to slash mount slash shared.
Chris: And so you go into Mount Shared and you Chmod Plus X, this shell script that
Chris: you just randomly downloaded from a stranger.
Chris: But again, you're in a sandbox. Who really cares? So I run this script.
Chris: And at first, it asks you for your language. The Chinese or English. And I say English.
Chris: And then the next, it's a menu prompt system of what desktop environment would
Chris: you like? And it has Plasma.
Chris: Although, let me tell you, it's not like a minimal version of Plasma.
Chris: It's the full Plasma goodness. So you better resize your disk image because
Chris: it will fill that disk image.
Chris: But it's also got Mate, LXQ, XFCE, which is what I went with.
Wes: Yeah, worth calling out as you say that you can resize. I think it starts at 8 gig.
Wes: There's a menu for that. And then you can also recover and wipe it from that
Wes: same menu if you screw things up like I did several times.
Chris: Yes, because the Plasma install was so long and I was barbecuing and things
Chris: like that, I would walk away from the phone and I would come back.
Chris: And it took longer than 30 minutes and the screen went to sleep because I had
Chris: like caffeine running for 30 minutes.
Chris: screen falls asleep and it kills the entire
Chris: process also i once tabbed away to respond to a message and it killed the entire
Chris: process and because i'm an idiot i was thinking oh well it's a container running
Chris: as a service and this terminal is just a front end so if i swap away it'll continue
Chris: to run in the container in the back in the back end it does not.
Wes: You maybe want to tweak some of its settings because i've had not 100 success
Wes: but i've had a lot of reasonable success with that of having to just run steady
Wes: state in the background.
Chris: Like I've been able to swap like if I'm at the command line and I'm not doing
Chris: anything. I've been able to swap out and then like swipe back to the app and still use it.
Chris: But if I'm in the middle, anytime in the middle of installing packages with
Chris: apt and I swipe out and swipe back, every single time I come back and the app
Chris: process has been killed and I'm just sitting back at the command line.
Chris: I broke dpkg three separate times.
Chris: I had to go in and do the whole configure repair three separate effing times
Chris: because of this. So do be aware of that.
Brent: But is that unusual?
Chris: Feels brittle. Brent, it feels brittle. But the script continues.
Chris: It asks you a few more questions like you need to set up the password for the
Chris: Droid user and then you need to get ADB working on your local host and you can connect it over USB-C.
Chris: And then when the script is done, it spins up a VNC server that's running the
Chris: desktop environment of your choice on your phone.
Wes: Oh, that's great.
Chris: It is really cool.
Brent: So bonkers.
Wes: So this is like an alternative approach, not using the updated Wayland blessed
Wes: path. This is like, well, we got Linux here, so we could just do VNC.
Chris: It works right now. And because you're doing it over USB-C, the performance
Chris: is great because it's local.
Chris: the only requirement of course is you just when you plug in your phone make sure that you have,
Chris: all your udev rules set up and that you have usb debugging and
Chris: all that turned on on the pixel device itself or whatever device you're
Chris: using and then you can run this on any
Chris: android device that has the android terminal and you can get a little gui running
Chris: inside vnc to have like a little private desktop session in there and it's all
Chris: outside the play store other than the terminal app which comes with the phone
Chris: so it felt it felt pretty neat i broke it so many times that it,
Chris: ultimately i'm not going to use it and it felt more like a tech demo but i'd
Chris: love to hear stories of people to get it working yeah.
Wes: I think even in the earlier versions than we're playing with like you kind of
Wes: had to assemble some of the vm config and pass it to it.
Chris: That's gotten a lot easier really it's very simple now because they give you
Chris: all the commands on the github.
Wes: Sounds like mini mech you gave it a try.
Mumble: Well not on android in fact i bought um second-hand Chromebook just like a week
Mumble: ago and I wanted to test out that Linux container thing.
Mumble: By the way, there are some videos on YouTube. If it's the same kind,
Mumble: these are simple LXC containers and it's really interesting.
Mumble: So the base distribution is in fact Debian and you can install every kind of
Mumble: graphical applications and that will show up in the app menu of the Chromebook.
Mumble: And that works flawlessly. So I was pretty amazed. I was pretty amazed.
Wes: Yeah, I have seen some speculation. Maybe this is sort of pre-planning as they
Wes: move away from CrimOS and push
Wes: more Android, then now they have this functionality there as well, right?
Chris: That's exactly what this is. You, though, you, Wes, you did the right thing
Chris: and pushed it way beyond anything's reasonable to the point of,
Chris: I think it's actually almost hilarious.
Chris: Tell us what you've done in your Android terminal.
Wes: Well, you know, I heard about some of your apt problems and I thought...
Wes: We really got to get you a better OS in there. And so I did some research to
Wes: see if we could, in fact, get Nix OS in our Android terminal.
Wes: And thanks to the brilliant work of MKG200001, we, in fact, can.
Chris: You got Nix packages running inside the terminal?
Wes: Not just, I mean, you can get Nix packages. It's so easy.
Chris: Oh, you got Nix OS?
Wes: This is Nix OS.
Chris: Oh, my goodness!
Wes: With a regular configuration.nix that you can do a rebuild switch.
Brent: Oh, my.
Chris: Well done, sir.
Wes: And as a test, I am, in fact, running a Jellyfin server.
Wes: that I can connect to with the Jellyfin app on my phone. And you can connect
Wes: to over the land of people.
Chris: So you get Jellyfin server running in the Linux terminal and the Jellyfin client, that's great.
Wes: And it's just services.jellyfin.enabled equals true on the next side.
Chris: And so I've pulled it up here on my machine. On my computer,
Chris: in my web browser, I have Wes's IP, which how are you even getting an IP inside this sandbox?
Wes: So it gets its own internal IP, but it's the double port for it, basically.
Wes: so the app will forward it to local host and then i got another app
Wes: off the play store that can do port forwarding to your local network
Wes: and so then i set that up and so that means that means the phone is yeah it
Wes: is it was pretty straightforward you can also i have um like if you have nebula
Wes: or tailscale or netbird or whatever running inside that works great yeah uh
Wes: even like before the ui would pop up it would connect to that under the hood
Wes: and so i could just ssh in immediately from my laptop and.
Chris: So then jellyfin was in the mesh network yeah that's good it's hilarious so
Chris: you could watch it from your home tv off your android.
Wes: I did that was another test oh that's.
Chris: So cool all right so let's see so i'm going to try to play the big buck bunny video uh famous.
Wes: I've got h top over here so we'll see you'll.
Chris: See yeah i wonder if it does hard it probably doesn't do hardware decoding right
Chris: so we're gonna see if it'll play in my web browser over the land off of the.
Wes: No i Because I think we have like the Virgil style, some sort of virtualized,
Wes: maybe Virgo GPU. I don't know.
Chris: All right, let's see. Tell me what, okay, here we go. I'm hitting play.
Chris: What's your resources look like?
Wes: Looking pretty good so far.
Chris: Really?
Wes: Load average is still .08.
Chris: What's your CPU usage?
Wes: Not much.
Chris: Really? Can I see?
Wes: Yeah.
Chris: Holy crap.
Wes: It must just really just be streaming it over there. It isn't like whatever their MP4 was.
Chris: Because the most.
Wes: We should get a weird web end or something.
Chris: You have one core that's like around 4% to 6% CPU.
Chris: One core out of, sorry to take from, eight cores. so he's got he's got of course
Chris: htop running on there right now and you can see all eight cores of the android
Chris: device while i stream big buck bunny from his freaking nix os running inside
Chris: the android terminal running jellyfin.
Wes: You know what was really impressive about this setup is like they have some
Wes: manual instructions but i think maybe some of that needed like you needed to
Wes: have root because you had like use adb to copy stuff over to replace the stock
Wes: image and stuff But they managed to set up a companion app that I just sideloaded.
Wes: So, you know, that's super handy.
Wes: That did pretty much all the work. Like you open the app, it would download
Wes: their built image and then write it to the right spot.
Wes: And then they would kind of similar, they would expose a script that you could run.
Wes: And then that would do more work. And then, yeah. And then the next time you
Wes: close and open the terminal, it booted into Nix OS.
Wes: It was really easy. Yeah, you should try it.
Chris: So we're going to put a link to that in the show notes.
Wes: Absolutely.
Chris: Okay. We should also put a link to that app you're using to do the port forwarding off of local host.
Wes: Yes.
Chris: That's really nice. This, to me, this makes me feel a little bit better, right?
Chris: This makes me feel a little bit better about the Play Store changes for external
Chris: apps because, or I should say the outside Play Store changes,
Chris: because this is still something you're never going to be able to do.
Chris: Well, maybe, but I don't think you could ever do this on iOS.
Chris: Maybe you could, I don't know.
Wes: You know, actually, even just when I was on the Debian side with Nix installed, I
Wes: was updating a flake totally separate unrelated and
Wes: I realized like I often leave in the a arch 64 support just because you know
Wes: why not but I don't have a machine to test that except yeah now I totally do
Wes: wait so like so instead of having to like do a cross compile on my machine I
Wes: can just do nix builds on my phone to test just as like a smoke test of like does it build on them I.
Chris: Love how casually too you're just like ssh into your phone all the time now and stuff and run it.
Wes: Especially with the mesh it's just so it was so slick.
Chris: That is really cool.
Wes: It starts It's up on boot automatically.
Chris: I kind of want that on my phone. We should set that up. That's pretty great. Well, so there you go.
Chris: That didn't require any kind of verification or signing. We're going to have
Chris: some great links in the show notes this week.
Chris: So head over to linuxunplugged.com slash 630 to get stuff that we're talking
Chris: about, including that bash script that's pretty much just answer the questions
Chris: and let it run if you want to try getting that VNC environment going.
Wes: Yeah, I got to try that one.
Chris: Yeah, it's pretty fun.
Chris: Unraid.net slash unplugged. Unleash your hardware, support the show,
Chris: and check out Unraid at Unraid.net slash unplugged.
Chris: They just wrapped up the big birthday stream. I checked it on it. It was awesome.
Chris: Some really cool rigs people sent in.
Chris: Unraid gives you the flexibility to take advantage of the hardware you have
Chris: today, to build a NAS operating system powered by Linux for those that want
Chris: control, flexibility, and efficiency in managing your data, deploying applications.
Chris: Unraid lets you mix and match drives of any size, and you can build with no
Chris: restrictions, and it supports all the file systems you might want.
Chris: It has fantastic virtual machine
Chris: and container support, and they're always cooking up something new.
Chris: In fact, Unraid OS 7.2.0 Beta 2 launched just a few days ago.
Chris: Really nice refresh to the web GUI. It's nice and fast and responsive.
Chris: Also, you can now do a single sign-on via Unraid or was it OIDC?
Chris: OIDC, I think, because I've never used it, but I can't remember.
Chris: But I think with the bigger deal that's coming in the new 720 that people are
Chris: really going to love to see is ZFS RAIDZ expansion one drive at a time.
Chris: Of course, you've still got Extended
Chris: 2, 3, 4, NTFS, XFS, all of the file systems. Maybe not BcacheFS yet.
Chris: But if ever got accepted into the kernel, they would support it because they're
Chris: building on top of modern Linux kernels.
Chris: They also have a built-in API for new tools that I saw some people talking about
Chris: on X that look really cool, including new possibilities for apps and things like that.
Chris: But the thing I want you to really take away about Unraid is it lets you get
Chris: started today with the stuff you have.
Chris: And you can start deploying within a few hours the things we talk about all
Chris: the time here on the show.
Chris: Inside containers, inside virtual machines, you can pass through hardware.
Chris: I recently talked about Frigate. People are using Unraid for Frigate like crazy.
Chris: You know you're always going to have the best virtual machine and container
Chris: support possible with a ton of flexibility for the storage underneath.
Chris: And recently, you know, within the last major release, they also built in wireless
Chris: networking support. So if you're in a situation like me where you can't run
Chris: Ethernet, they have support for that now right out of the box and a ton of great stuff.
Chris: Unraid is always under active development and they have this great path where
Chris: you can check it out. They have the betas and the RC process,
Chris: so you can stay tuned and follow that process.
Chris: And then they have incredibly active community where the people,
Chris: if you have a problem, the people are there, man.
Chris: They are there to help you. They are there to support you, work you through whatever it might be.
Chris: That was one of my biggest surprise takeaways. Besides the amount of applications
Chris: you can deploy, it's just how active and engaged the community is because it
Chris: doesn't just, I mean, it's not just support, right? They're building things too.
Chris: They're building a lot of things that make the Unraid experience even more enjoyable
Chris: for power users. So it doesn't really matter your skill level, though.
Chris: Just get started by going to unraid.net slash unplugged. You take it as far
Chris: as you want. Just unleash the hardware you have with Unraid and support the show.
Chris: Unraid.net slash unplugged.
Brent: Well, we teased last week that there was one last bootleg promo membership and
Brent: listener Woody got it. So congrats to Woody for grabbing that one.
Chris: And that was the entirety of the membership set up. They love a deal.
Chris: People love a deal. I understand. Thank you, though, Woody.
Chris: Appreciate you. Hope you enjoy the bootleg. That's also an option to our new
Chris: members as well as the ad-free version.
Chris: It still has all the producer do's fine touches and lovin's.
Chris: And there's the Jupiter.party membership, which gets you the supports for all
Chris: the shows and gets you the bootlegs of the shows that have the bootlegs.
Chris: It'll make sense once you see it.
Brent: Now, we did get some listener feedback this week. Chris, you figured out how
Brent: to pronounce this one, right?
Chris: This is Poos Baboon.
Brent: Poos Baboon.
Chris: He sent some great feedback. He has been pushing Frigate, which I mentioned
Chris: is the DVR system or NVR system I want to set up. He's been trying it on low-end
Chris: hardware with a Coral, or without a Coral, I should say, and he's been making it work.
Chris: But this is the key thing that I loved, is he says, check out the WANsView W7.
Chris: You can put Thingio on there, we've talked about this before,
Chris: which is an alternative ROM, and you get solid performance, low light visibility, low cost.
Wes: I mean, that sounds nice.
Chris: This thing, Wes, this thing's ridiculous.
Chris: If you buy it directly from WANsView.com, $29.99 for this sucker.
Chris: Oh, that's crazy. And then you can put, you can put a firmware on there that
Chris: lets you do the RTSB streaming, all of that.
Chris: So anyways, just want to say thank you to Baboon for sending that in.
Chris: I'll put links to the goodies he mentioned in his email in the show notes.
Brent: We also got a note from Sebastian here. Hey there. Last week,
Brent: I finally got around to write a Thunderbird add-on.
Brent: Its purpose is to be able to upload documents directly to a paperless NGX instance.
Brent: And it might be something our dear self-hosted enthusiasts appreciate.
Wes: Oh, cool. That's a great idea.
Chris: Really good idea. I mean, how often do important documents and whatnot come
Chris: in via email that you want to save?
Chris: I really think both of you and me are the prime target market for paperless and GX.
Wes: I agree.
Chris: Look at Brent over there with his freaking mobile lifestyle.
Brent: Yeah, who needs paper, right? I use it to start fires and that's actually I
Brent: don't even use it to start fires.
Chris: Paperless upload Thunderbird. We'll put a link to it. It's an add-on for Thunderbird.
Chris: It lets you upload PDF attachments from your emails.
Chris: It does local processing, no third-party servers, simple config to just set
Chris: up your paperless NGX instance, and optional notifications.
Chris: Seamless integration with Thunderbird's UI, and it's MIT as well.
Chris: Well done. Thanks for sending that in. You know, Sebastian, we love it.
Chris: If you make something like that, you build something like that,
Chris: send it in. We'd love to see it.
Chris: And we do have a batch of boosts to get to, and Quirrell94 comes in as our baller at 50,000 sats.
Chris: My AlbiHub was down for a minute while I figured out what was wrong.
Chris: Here's a boost for all the great information you produce.
Chris: Thank you, and coming in kind of last minute, too, helping bring up the average
Chris: on this episode in a big way.
Chris: Thank you there, Karel94. Appreciate that baller boost.
Wes: The dude abides boosts in with 42,000 sats.
Chris: Hey, isn't that the answer to everything?
Wes: Hey, I realized it's been a month since I last boosted.
Wes: Regarding the low boost amounts, I believe it's because of summer vacations.
Wes: At least, that was my case.
Chris: You know what they say. Summertime, it's fun time.
Wes: It's also very hard to keep up when kids are home 24-7, as I'm sure Chris can relate.
Chris: Let me tell you, buddy. Boy, can I. Should have seen me trying to set up this,
Chris: run this bash script on my Android device while I'm just trying to like,
Chris: you know, talk to kids and feed kids. And oh my God, it was a disaster.
Wes: As for the BcashFS drama, I think I agree with you.
Wes: In the end, it's the users that lose. As far as I understand,
Wes: all the talks have been made through the mailing list and various blog posts, right?
Wes: If it were me, I'd schedule at least a video chat or even better,
Wes: try and meet in real life. I'm sure they could figure things out while drinking a beer.
Chris: Oh man, no kidding. If this had gone down at an in-person event,
Chris: it would have taken 25 minutes and we'd have BcacheFS as stable in the kernel with this next release.
Chris: Let that sink in.
Brent: That actually kind of feels like it hurts just a little bit.
Chris: Great point, the dude abides. Appreciate that boost. Good to hear from you. Missed you.
Wes: Excellent abiding.
Brent: Well, Distro Stew boosted in, what is this, a row of sticks? 11,111 sets.
Brent: My Nix configs started from a template I found online, many hosts,
Brent: but all sharing a single flake.lock.
Brent: This seems like common practice when I look at other people's setups,
Brent: but why do you think that is?
Brent: This effectively means that when I update the package versions on one machine,
Brent: I'll do the rest of the machines too.
Brent: I don't really want this, so I'm going to rework my setup, but am I missing something here?
Wes: Well, one of the plus sides and sometimes negative sides of Nix is there's a
Wes: thousand ways to do things and you kind of get to decide the structure yourself.
Wes: That is where things like those templates come in pretty handy to get you a
Wes: structure out of the box.
Wes: But it does mean the template imposes its own thoughts on how much that matters to their setup.
Wes: I think for some people, you know, especially maybe on the stable channels,
Wes: those kinds of, you know, suddenly you're updating everywhere.
Wes: Sometimes it might be a big deal. Sometimes it might not be a big deal. you do
Wes: have some flexibility i think you could definitely have more nix
Wes: packages inputs if you wanted like you could have different ones
Wes: for different machines that you pass through that they use instead of
Wes: all being using the same sharing the same input you could
Wes: also do something with you know git where you
Wes: you know you don't necessarily have to follow all all of the updates or you
Wes: can maintain separate branches or stuff you can also have indirect flakes like
Wes: i have a single flake that i use just to pin stuff that i sort of want to keep
Wes: shared between a common set of projects and I don't put all projects on that
Wes: pin so it's like one more layer of indirection.
Wes: So there's a few different options or you can just split more things up.
Wes: Also with NixOS configurations in particular, you can also move some of your
Wes: stuff into their own modules and then that's a little easier to sort of share
Wes: and pass between multiple flakes.
Wes: I don't know, that's a long Nix ramble, so hopefully any of that's helpful.
Wes: But I'm curious where to go and thank you for sharing your link.
Wes: I always love taking a look at NixConfig links.
Chris: Yeah, thank you Distro Stu. Good to hear from you. Superior's Tom comes in with 3,333 sets.
Chris: He said, Flameshot is the way to go for screenshots. I typically use Spectacle
Chris: on KDE, but Flameshot works great on everything else. Even Windows.
Wes: Oh, I didn't know that.
Chris: I didn't know Flameshot was still around. I think I remember using it,
Chris: but feeling like it had a lot of buttons. It's got a lot.
Wes: There's a lot of functionality.
Chris: A lot of buttons. And I want to draw a box. I want to go to my clipboard.
Chris: That is the only functionality I want. Ideally, it's a PNG. I can live with a JPUG or even a WebP.
Wes: I don't know if you saw a Hyper Shot?
Chris: Yes.
Wes: Have you tried that one?
Chris: From Sending by the Matrix.
Wes: Uh-huh.
Chris: I think that might be the one I go with. I have not yet tried it.
Chris: But, because, you know, I got to play around with, like, my buying key options.
Chris: Because I think I might want one that's, like, a full screenshot.
Chris: And then one that's just, you know, check a box.
Wes: You mean you haven't vibed that in yet?
Chris: No. Although I've made a lot of updates to the Hyper Vibe setup.
Chris: Including a total re-kind of tooling of the way things work.
Chris: So, Superius Tom, I appreciate that. I might use Flameshot until I really lock
Chris: it down, and then maybe I'll just end up keeping using it.
Wes: You know, maybe you should turn your Vibe setup over onto Distress Juice.
Chris: I know. You'd probably have.
Wes: Muck it up for him.
Chris: I think so. I'm down for that.
Wes: Free KVH comes in with 16,944 cents.
Wes: But I can boost the bootleg feed. Ah, yeah, yeah. This is in response to us
Wes: talking about other folks not being able to boost the bootleg feed.
Wes: And Cast-O-Matic is delightfully, has a great implementation that lets you do this.
Wes: because they check the feed itself directly and are not totally relying on the podcast index API.
Chris: Right. Castomatic uses the feed as a source of truth, whereas Fountain is using
Chris: the index API, and because it's a private feed, there is no index API answer.
Chris: But whereas Castomatic can just read, it's right there in the RSS feed.
Chris: That's what Fountain would have to do, is they'd have to implement reading it
Chris: right there from the XML.
Chris: And thank you for boosting us, and for being a member.
Brent: Jordan bravo sent in a row of ducks a
Brent: few years ago i started using distros that are atomic
Brent: aka immutable and i'm never going back
Brent: to the legacy way of doing things unbootable systems
Brent: are a thing of the past i started with silver blue and then moved to nix os
Brent: of course where i have been ever since however blend os looks interesting would
Brent: be great if you all could review it immutable declarative and arch based sounds interesting hmm.
Chris: Yeah.
Wes: I think that is one we've had our eyes on over.
Chris: Time or.
Wes: At least been curious about i haven't super tried it recently.
Chris: The fact that it's still going yeah.
Wes: That's a good sign.
Chris: Probably a sign we should check in on it put it on the list boys brent we put
Chris: that in the future list we should put that in the list you know what i'm saying.
Brent: It's more of a grab bag than a list but i'll throw it in there thank.
Chris: You appreciate that thank you jordan bravo,
Chris: Fuzzy Mistborn comes in also with a Rodex. That's 2,222 sats.
Chris: Frigate is amazing. I wouldn't recommend the Corals anymore, even the PCI version.
Chris: They haven't seen updates in a while and are basically end of life.
Chris: Yet another product killed by Google.
Chris: Instead, though, you can use a GPU for object detection, and it works great.
Chris: Yeah, I've heard folks are even using QuickSync.
Wes: Oh, that's neat.
Chris: Uh-huh. I mean, I'm happy not to buy a Coral, although it is disappointing.
Chris: It seems like it was something people really liked.
Chris: Google buys the company and then kills the freaking product.
Chris: It's getting old. It's getting old. But that is really good to know because,
Chris: honestly, the Odroid, it doesn't have, like, crazy great quick sync,
Chris: but it's got passable quick sync for a couple of cameras.
Chris: I might give that a try if people out there say it's working.
Chris: I've also heard from people that they're using NVIDIA GPUs, too,
Chris: and that I won't be doing.
Wes: Right. Well, not until you get your new framework.
Chris: I wish. I got a Texas Linux Fest to get to.
Wes: Well, 8565 boosts in with 10,000 sets.
Chris: All right.
Wes: I am way behind on boosting. Life has been lifing. Just want to make sure you get some value from me.
Chris: Thank you.
Wes: Since I've ditched my smartphone and carry a flip phone, I don't actually have quick access to boost.
Wes: Just a little update on my disconnect from society. Still rocking the flip phone since November.
Chris: Wow.
Wes: And my Zune is once again my best friend.
Chris: The Zune! I love it! I hope it's brown.
Wes: I upgraded the 30 gig, oh, from a hard drive to a 64 gig SSD.
Chris: Well, that thing's basically going to last forever as long as you have a battery that works.
Wes: And the automatic podcast pull is a lifesaver. That sounds pretty great.
Chris: I do remember. Are you still using, like, the Zune desktop?
Wes: You've got to tell us more about how you're managing this.
Chris: I do remember using it for podcasts.
Wes: I'll get roughly three days of constant play. Honestly, aside from losing podcast
Wes: 2.0 features, it has been the biggest life-improving thing I've ever done.
Wes: Thanks for being awesome, and I'm still here listening, even if I'm crazy busy.
Chris: I do. I appreciate that check-in.
Wes: Yeah, totally.
Chris: You know, 8565, too, when life isn't so busy, right, as if, you could take a
Chris: Saturday afternoon and set up AlbiHub, and then you could boost from the podcast index.
Chris: You don't need a mobile app at all.
Chris: I love the flip phone check-in, too, and the Zoom stuff. Want more of that.
Chris: Come back soon. It's good to hear from you.
Brent: Well, door or nail 7887 boosted in 2000 sats.
Brent: It looks like this one's just a whittle boost, they say.
Chris: A whittle boost.
Brent: Just a whittle boost.
Chris: Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Dumb Oz here with 2,000 sets.
Chris: You guys ever actually hit the watch all activity on the Nick's Packages repo?
Chris: Sure gave my inbox a workout. No way.
Chris: People don't appreciate how big that is. It's a whole universe out there. You maniac.
Wes: I love it. All kinds of automated stuff coming through.
Chris: Now what you need to do is throw it into some sort of filter to just sort out
Chris: the stuff you really care about. Might be possible. You never know.
Wes: WH-20,250 boosts in with 8,000 sats.
Wes: A few sats to help you get to Texas Linux Fest.
Chris: Hey, thank you.
Brent: Thank you.
Wes: If you drive jupes down and make an overnight stop in the panhandle,
Wes: I'll throw a brisket on the pit if the timing lines up with my work schedule.
Brent: Oh my gosh, man.
Wes: Now that's an offer.
Chris: Well, we're going to be coming down in my car. It's going to be Wes and I coming
Chris: down the West Coast and Brent coming down the East Coast.
Chris: And then we'll also be together coming up the West Coast. So we will actually have two passes at it.
Chris: You never know. I would be down for that.
Chris: Not having the RV, which was a tough decision, but it means we can pull into driveways.
Chris: We can meet people at restaurants, at places where the RV couldn't pull into.
Chris: So there's some perks to it that I'm going to embrace.
Chris: So we'll try to stay in touch. It's a great idea.
Brent: A dude is trying stuff for 10,000 sats.
Brent: Did I hear the words useful and self-hosted? Take my money.
Brent: Also, was that a sneaky self-hosted podcast sound effect at the end of the last one password ad read?
Chris: Never.
Brent: I'm on to you, fellas. Thanks for the nod. And I'm attending my first Texas
Brent: Linux Fest this year, and I hope to see you there.
Chris: Oh, right on it, dude. Yes, we'll be there one way or another.
Chris: Very excited. Thank you.
Chris: Looking for that. If you're making it and you boost in, let us know.
Chris: We want to shake your hand. That's for sure.
Chris: Right now, virtual shake to everybody who boosted in, including those of you
Chris: who come in under the 2000 sat cutoff.
Chris: We really appreciate it. And of course, our sat streamers too.
Wes: Oh yeah.
Chris: We had 18 of you sat stream. As we did the episode last week,
Chris: you just sat streamed and you stacked 31,165 sats. When you combine that with
Chris: our boosters, we got a little low this week, but I'm still really grateful.
Chris: 193,663 sats. And here's the good news. Sats are on sale again, boys.
Chris: So go out, support the show, get Fountain FM and get us to Texas so we can do
Chris: our unique style of coverage while you support the show.
Chris: And, you know, it's also just a lot of fun to read your messages above 2000
Chris: sats and we'll read them on the show. I love that, too.
Chris: Of course, you can do it the whole self-hosted route with something like AlbiHub
Chris: and there's a whole plethora of apps at podcastapps.com.
Chris: If you're on iOS, Castomatic is really great.
Chris: Also, a brand new app doesn't support boost yet, but it has a bunch of podcasting 2.0 features. Podhome.
Chris: There's a Podhome app now.
Wes: Is that right?
Chris: And if you pay, you'd love this, Wes. If you become a premium member,
Chris: Barry has integrated pod pings, live streams.
Chris: So you can, it's just a, it's just a stream of podcasts that are getting published
Chris: right there in the app. I paid just for that.
Chris: Anyways, thank you everybody who supports the show.
Chris: We really do appreciate it. If it's a membership, if it's a boost,
Chris: if it's word of mouth, it really does make a difference. And that's why the
Chris: show continues to go so many years later and has become the world's largest
Chris: Linux podcast is because of your support.
Chris: I mean it, and we appreciate it. So with that, let's get you a pick and get you out of here.
Chris: So let's say this is pronounced Cavisto.
Chris: Cavisto, what do you think?
Wes: Cavitzo?
Chris: Cavitzo?
Wes: What do you think, Brett?
Brent: Cavitzo? You guys are missing that sits in there. There's S-I-T-S.
Chris: Okay, let's go. Cavitzo, I'm sorry we have to do this. But it's worth it.
Chris: It is a little bit different.
Chris: It is a search focused approach to an Android launcher, but with a bias towards
Chris: beautiful placement of widgets in kind of a list view.
Chris: So this replaces the stock launcher and you can pin your favorite apps to the top.
Chris: it also supports gestures and one of the things that i like about this especially
Chris: if you're coming from ios is it's it's competitive
Chris: with apple's integrated search and launch functionality which
Chris: somehow bafflingly so google has yet to rip
Chris: off it strikes me as user hostile that a you have to swipe from the bottom up
Chris: in just the right way because one way is your app switcher and the other way
Chris: is a call to home and then the other way pulls up your app drawer and then because
Chris: they're absolutely monsters that design this UI,
Chris: it doesn't default to the search being active.
Chris: So you have to tap the search and then start typing. It's crazy.
Brent: I have in person seen your rage around this particular lack of feature.
Brent: It's very entertaining.
Chris: So you can imagine I have completely switched to this launcher now because you
Chris: swipe down briefly, quickly in a natural gesture and it brings up the launcher
Chris: defaulting to switch and are defaulting to search it's a super fast search well.
Wes: This is nice i just installed it sideloaded it in fact.
Chris: Yes i installed it through obtainium yeah.
Wes: It was easy.
Chris: Uh it also the search you can have it trigger to search for the
Chris: web or google or other things and i really like the combination of pin favorite
Chris: apps plus it figures out the apps you use most recently you can have multiple
Chris: tabs in there and it has really great search and then when you go to the home
Chris: screen it's all my heads up information with my widgets really nicely laid out
Chris: you do have to kind of get go in there and mess with them a little bit to get them to look good.
Chris: When you do, it's just beautiful. It's very fast and actually gives me more
Chris: information just glancing at my screen than traditionally.
Chris: And so with this combined with Graphene OS and something like Obtainium,
Chris: it truly honestly feels like my phone.
Chris: A lot of times when I use a modern phone, it feels like I'm using Apple's experience
Chris: or I'm using Google's products and I'm kind of like renting it.
Chris: But when you go with Graphene OS and you sideload your apps with Obtainium and
Chris: F-Droid, and you replace the launcher with this thing, it is a unique experience
Chris: that has nothing that feels like Google on it.
Chris: And this is a truly better way to launch applications, especially if you're
Chris: a maniac like me, that really has five to ten core apps I use on the regular.
Chris: You know, maybe five, really, ten.
Chris: And yet my phone has nearly 300 apps installed on it.
Chris: because I might use them one day. I might need that app, and when I might need
Chris: it, I don't want to be in a place where I can't get it because of a low signal,
Chris: so I'm going to have it installed just in case.
Chris: This makes sorting through all of that so much better. Also,
Chris: focusing on the apps I do use, focusing on the information in the widgets I
Chris: do use, it's really nice.
Chris: You don't have to be on Graphene OS, but the combination, it feels like true freedom.
Chris: And it's GPL 3.0.
Chris: that's great i think if you tried it and you really try it for three or four days i'm.
Wes: Gonna switch right now and just see.
Chris: See if it sticks i think you will like it i i really is a little different it
Chris: took me playing around with it and messing with the widgets and now i've been
Chris: using it yeah i think it's like middle of last week and i'm totally i'm forever now what.
Wes: Do you think will you give it a go.
Brent: You know, I think I've used this one in the past. I was like very, very,
Brent: very unhappy with, um, I think it was a launcher that came with like a,
Brent: I don't know, Motorola phone or something like that and was doing the deep dive
Brent: on basically installed every single alternative launcher.
Brent: And I think this was one of them. And I think it made like the top three for me.
Brent: So I'll give it another shot. I mean, it has Chris's blessing.
Brent: So it might not be that bad.
Chris: I recommend, you know, um, you got to kind of like go in and like recrop the
Chris: widgets and stuff for like some of the apps, but I really like it.
Brent: What would you say is the minimum number of days to give it a proper try?
Chris: Probably three.
Brent: Oh, I'm in then.
Chris: Unless you use your phone a lot, but yeah, I'd say probably three.
Chris: Yeah. Give it a shot. We'll put a link in the show notes. I think you're going to like it.
Chris: I was surprised by it. And I'm, you know, I was like, I'll just give this a
Chris: quick try because Wes shared an article where it just got like a really brief mention.
Chris: And I was like, while I was reading the article, I'm like, wait a minute,
Chris: I'm going to go try that out.
Wes: Yeah, it was someone talking about, I mean, really just why they were going
Wes: to continue to be using Graphene OS into the future, which was great to see
Wes: in general. And, yeah, it turns out they had some good tips.
Chris: Yeah, just ironically, that was not the focus, but that was my takeaway.
Wes: Yeah, threw in the end. Well, the rest we kind of already agreed on.
Chris: Yeah, I suppose that's probably true. And, you know, so from now on,
Chris: that's my launcher choice.
Chris: And we'll put a link to it in the show notes at linuxunplugged.com slash 630.
Chris: All right, well, that's going to wrap us up right there, boys.
Chris: We're going to get out of here. And I want to remind everybody that we are trying
Chris: to put together some funds to get to Texas Linux Fest.
Chris: We may have news about, like, meetup locations and swag and things like that midweek.
Chris: So keep an eye out on the Jupyter Garage for that type of stuff.
Chris: Hopefully be in the work soon. And then we have more details about,
Chris: like, when we're actually going to be in Austin.
Chris: I imagine we'll put something up on our meetup.com slash Jupyter broadcasting
Chris: page. So if you're going to be at Texas Linux Fest I'd say right now at this
Chris: stage The two top tips I would have Would be A. Let us know,
Chris: And get in the Texas LinuxFest Matrix chat room. I think we have one of those.
Chris: We should probably put a link to that in the show notes, boys.
Chris: What else do they need to know if they're going to? Oh, meetup.com slash Jupyter
Chris: Broadcasting, I suppose. That's probably it.
Chris: That'll probably be it. All right. Well, I don't want to leave, but it is that time.
Chris: I hate to leave you, but then again, I love sitting down and getting to do it
Chris: all over again. So come back.
Wes: We will be here next week.
Chris: That's right. For 631. Wes, there's probably some power user features they should know about.
Wes: Yeah, do you not like some of the stuff we talk about? Or you just can't wait
Wes: to hear our take or bad take on something?
Chris: Or did we name something and you want to hear what it was again?
Wes: Yeah, well, we have two things for you. One is transcripts for the whole darn
Wes: show, so you can see everything we say, or at least what the AI guesses we said,
Wes: which is pretty close most of the time.
Wes: And then we also have chapters, which get the more human touch in our,
Wes: you know, probably the easiest way to just jump right to the content you want.
Chris: Yep. All right, thank you for being here. Of course, you can join us next week.
Chris: We have the details at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar.
Chris: And we'll see you next Sunday, as in Tuesday.