WEBVTT 00:00:11.401 --> 00:00:16.099 Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris. 00:00:16.099 --> 00:00:17.061 My name is Wes. 00:00:17.415 --> 00:00:18.437 And my name is Brent. 00:00:18.942 --> 00:00:23.835 Well, hello, gentlemen. Coming up on the show today, Linux is saying goodbye to AppleTalk. 00:00:24.329 --> 00:00:28.849 So naturally, we're bringing it back. We're going to build a tiny retro LAN 00:00:28.849 --> 00:00:32.369 with Mac OS 8, Linux, Netatalk, no TCP IP. 00:00:33.025 --> 00:00:36.066 And we'll tell you about a surprisingly hard part that we ran into. 00:00:36.380 --> 00:00:37.953 Then we're going to round out the show with some great boosts, 00:00:38.075 --> 00:00:41.659 some picks, and a lot more. So before we get there, let's say time-appropriate 00:00:41.659 --> 00:00:44.769 greetings to our virtual lug. Hello, Mumble Room. Hello, guys. 00:00:45.189 --> 00:00:47.029 Hey, Chris. Hey, my son. Hello, Brent. 00:00:47.868 --> 00:00:51.719 Hi. Good crew in there today. Hi. And the hell up there in the quiet listening, 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:54.079 too. Hello, everybody, live over at jblive.tv. 00:00:54.642 --> 00:00:59.509 Nice to have you on board. And good morning to our friends over at Defined Networking. 00:00:59.509 --> 00:01:03.559 Go to defined.net slash unplugged. You know, this week, we're remembering a 00:01:03.559 --> 00:01:06.971 time when networking felt local and understandable. 00:01:07.447 --> 00:01:10.929 And that's why I like Manage Nebula from Define Networking. It's a decentralized 00:01:10.929 --> 00:01:15.109 VPN built on the open source Nebula platform that was originally developed to 00:01:15.109 --> 00:01:18.830 connect all of Slack's global infrastructure securely and safely. 00:01:19.486 --> 00:01:23.248 What's also great about Nebula is you can run your own lightweight lighthouse, 00:01:23.503 --> 00:01:26.957 your own nodes. You control the visibility and connectivity. 00:01:27.276 --> 00:01:30.951 You have that under your power. It's fast. It's encrypted. It's resilient. 00:01:31.468 --> 00:01:35.159 And it's great for connectivity for a home lab all the way up to global enterprises. 00:01:35.159 --> 00:01:38.213 So start with 100 hosts for free. No credit card required. 00:01:38.503 --> 00:01:41.371 Defined.net slash unplugged. Go over there. 00:01:41.725 --> 00:01:45.667 Check it out. Support the show at defined.net slash unplugged. 00:01:49.967 --> 00:01:55.175 A quick spot of housekeeping. Wes, you wanted to remind us about NixVegas coming up around the corner. 00:01:55.495 --> 00:02:00.508 Yeah, that's right. NixVegas, a great conference I had the privilege of speaking at last year. 00:02:00.844 --> 00:02:05.105 If you don't remember, it's a sub-conference at DEF CON. 00:02:05.372 --> 00:02:10.735 So it's a ton of fun, lots of security, hackers, and with the efforts of the 00:02:10.735 --> 00:02:16.535 SoCal NixOS user group and Distractions, Inc., there's now a bunch of Nix nerds there, too. 00:02:16.535 --> 00:02:21.805 So the CFP is still open for a week and three days until the 16th, 00:02:21.805 --> 00:02:24.610 or I think it ends maybe the midnight on the 15th. 00:02:25.005 --> 00:02:27.425 And they're doing something kind of interesting this year that not only can 00:02:27.425 --> 00:02:30.925 you do like a call for papers style submission to do a talk, 00:02:30.925 --> 00:02:33.265 but they're also doing something where they want you to submit. 00:02:33.532 --> 00:02:37.445 Like if you don't want to do a whole public speaking thing, they're going to 00:02:37.445 --> 00:02:41.085 have a space for people to show off projects instead of giving presentations. 00:02:41.085 --> 00:02:44.515 So if you have a cool Nix-related thing you want to demo at a con, 00:02:44.864 --> 00:02:49.225 they'll have space, maybe infrastructure, and so you can kind of have more casual 00:02:49.225 --> 00:02:53.705 conversations, demo that without having to go through the rigmarole of doing a public talk. 00:02:53.705 --> 00:02:59.415 So I just think that's great, and it's super good time, very clever nerds doing 00:02:59.415 --> 00:03:00.825 the intersection of security. 00:03:01.202 --> 00:03:04.006 And as we know, Nix makes a great foundation for that. 00:03:04.250 --> 00:03:07.085 And if you're curious, they do have a little sneak peek of some of the talks 00:03:07.085 --> 00:03:09.771 they've already accepted, and we'll have that linked in the show notes. 00:03:10.270 --> 00:03:13.535 All right so time is running out though if you want to get in on that goodness 00:03:13.535 --> 00:03:16.465 you got like a limited window of time you can still register. 00:03:16.465 --> 00:03:22.460 And go but if you do submit a cfp and get accepted they do cover the defcon badge which is great. 00:03:23.105 --> 00:03:27.128 Sweet sweet links in the show notes for that as we do, 00:03:28.266 --> 00:03:31.812 So we wanted to say goodbye to Apple Talk properly. You know, 00:03:31.812 --> 00:03:36.747 it was released in 1985 as the primary protocol used by Apple devices, 00:03:37.055 --> 00:03:39.592 all the way up pretty solidly into the 90s. 00:03:39.592 --> 00:03:44.480 And it was dropped officially in Snow Leopard when they just sort of switched all in on TCP IP. 00:03:45.234 --> 00:03:48.362 Now, we recently covered that it's going to be removed from the Linux kernel 00:03:48.362 --> 00:03:50.712 in Linux 7.2, the next major release. 00:03:50.712 --> 00:03:55.492 I think you're underselling this. You know, you're just coming in here matter-of-factly, 00:03:55.492 --> 00:03:58.542 you know, just doing our serious news business. We talked about how it was going 00:03:58.542 --> 00:04:02.512 to be removed from the kernel as if it hasn't been something of a small existential 00:04:02.512 --> 00:04:04.488 crisis for you since we talked about that. 00:04:04.744 --> 00:04:08.272 It's true. That's fair. It's true. I was trying to keep the emotion out of it 00:04:08.272 --> 00:04:09.582 because, you know, I'm upset about this. 00:04:09.582 --> 00:04:13.556 You made swag just to, like, put your tears all over them. 00:04:14.275 --> 00:04:17.292 I know. Well, here's the irony of it, too. And this is why it hurts. 00:04:17.292 --> 00:04:22.692 Right. Is and I hope today we will make the case why Apple talk was perhaps 00:04:23.072 --> 00:04:26.686 one of the greatest protocols of all time. I'm going to try to make the case today. We'll see. 00:04:27.476 --> 00:04:31.116 But what hurts about it is I know it was ironically removed from the kernel, 00:04:32.538 --> 00:04:34.030 because it started getting more attention. 00:04:36.532 --> 00:04:39.254 Okay? That's just a little bit of salt in the wound, boys. 00:04:40.055 --> 00:04:43.097 It turns out the LLMs, they really like it. They were checking it out. 00:04:43.353 --> 00:04:44.165 And now we're following it. 00:04:45.112 --> 00:04:48.992 So on June 16th, I went into the Linux kernel mailing list, and you can find 00:04:48.992 --> 00:04:50.208 this email here. I'll have it linked. 00:04:50.644 --> 00:04:54.921 AppleTalk has been removed from Mac OS 10.6 since Snow Leopard in 2009. 00:04:55.820 --> 00:04:59.082 We just recently got a burst of AI-generated fixes for the protocol, 00:04:59.082 --> 00:05:00.172 which nobody's reviewing. 00:05:01.579 --> 00:05:05.932 Let AppleTalk follow the AX25 and ham radio out of the Linux tree. 00:05:05.932 --> 00:05:08.353 We'll maintain code at, and they link it to an orphan. 00:05:11.098 --> 00:05:13.729 That is cool. I didn't know that existed until this happened. 00:05:13.729 --> 00:05:17.774 There is this Linux NetDev mod orphan repo you can get for this stuff, but. 00:05:18.209 --> 00:05:21.799 That's legit cool. That's legit cool. I want to take us back in time, 00:05:21.799 --> 00:05:25.689 though, because you guys, I mean, I think everybody's just rolling their eyes 00:05:25.689 --> 00:05:29.726 at this, but there could have been a world where AppleTalk took off. 00:05:30.290 --> 00:05:34.919 See, it arrived early on when there was not a standard. People were not using 00:05:34.919 --> 00:05:37.627 TCP IP. That wasn't the obvious choice. 00:05:38.434 --> 00:05:43.043 Everybody, every major vendor had their own local LAN network standard. 00:05:43.362 --> 00:05:49.609 Microsoft had NetBui, NetWare had IPX, and Apple had AppleTalk, 00:05:49.609 --> 00:05:50.867 and there were others as well. 00:05:51.157 --> 00:05:56.879 And, you know, in the fringes, the weirdos were using something called TCP, but we'll get to that. 00:05:56.879 --> 00:06:00.169 I mean, you hadn't even standardized on like what you were doing at the physical 00:06:00.169 --> 00:06:03.986 layer yet, right? I mean, Ethernet, token ring, other options. 00:06:04.793 --> 00:06:09.779 Which was one of the great things about AppleTalk is it had real flexibility. 00:06:09.779 --> 00:06:14.209 It could do local talk, Ethernet, token ring, whatever the sort of the flavor 00:06:14.209 --> 00:06:15.561 du jour of networking was. 00:06:16.078 --> 00:06:20.101 AppleTalk probably worked with it, even down to just computers connected directly to each other. 00:06:21.019 --> 00:06:25.849 It was beyond what most people could do. But what you have to appreciate is 00:06:25.849 --> 00:06:30.126 AppleTalk had dynamic addressing, DHCP essentially, 00:06:30.550 --> 00:06:36.036 and had name discovery, DNS essentially, built in on day one. 00:06:36.372 --> 00:06:41.661 Name resolution, auto discovery. So you could go out and get yourself a tiny little beige Mac. 00:06:41.904 --> 00:06:45.019 You could drop it down on the network, plug it in, and it would start seeing 00:06:45.019 --> 00:06:47.399 the other Mac. And then you plug in the next one and it sees the other Mac. 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:49.222 That's a strange concept. Right? 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:49.629 Right. 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:54.489 Now, I mean, Wes, I know we're kind of jumping around here, but you were looking 00:06:54.489 --> 00:06:57.809 at some of the protocol stuff here. I mean, it's genuinely impressive, right? 00:06:57.809 --> 00:07:02.149 Yeah, it is pretty great. So you mentioned local talk, which was basically they 00:07:02.149 --> 00:07:05.779 hadn't really planned when they were doing like the first Macintosh for networking 00:07:05.779 --> 00:07:08.519 to necessarily be a part. And they were already kind of overdone on how many 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:11.061 chips they could fit on the board and the expense and all of that. 00:07:11.542 --> 00:07:14.489 And so they had a serial bus and they're like, well, we're just going to turn 00:07:14.489 --> 00:07:18.869 that into, you know, a physical layer for networking and implement packet collision 00:07:18.869 --> 00:07:20.569 in user space, essentially. 00:07:20.569 --> 00:07:23.949 in the software that we run it on and just make it work. 00:07:23.949 --> 00:07:27.634 And then later that had to get ported over to things like EtherTalk or TokenTalk 00:07:27.872 --> 00:07:30.240 so that you could have flexible physical layers, which, yeah, 00:07:30.711 --> 00:07:34.269 that already is huge, right? Which kind of helped us that we did bridge into 00:07:34.269 --> 00:07:35.593 Ethernet winning the world. 00:07:36.161 --> 00:07:41.919 But then above that, yeah, so they've got, well, they've got a lot of interesting 00:07:41.919 --> 00:07:46.039 stuff, but the main one you're talking about is NBP, which is the name-binding 00:07:46.039 --> 00:07:47.381 protocol, which is the big one. 00:07:47.683 --> 00:07:52.658 For the 80s, 85, 87, 88, like this was huge. 00:07:52.821 --> 00:07:59.479 Yep. Distributed, no central authority. It provides a way basically to have 00:07:59.479 --> 00:08:01.139 a nice name, a human readable name. 00:08:01.139 --> 00:08:04.959 And what they were early on is this idea that we've slowly gotten to and the 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:08.349 TCP IP did not come with, which is like, don't use the address, 00:08:08.349 --> 00:08:11.994 right? The address is like a temporary thing, right? You're sending the letter to me. 00:08:12.499 --> 00:08:15.059 Okay, you might need the address of the house I'm renting right now, 00:08:15.059 --> 00:08:17.904 but that's going to change. And the same idea is here. 00:08:18.130 --> 00:08:21.169 So like you want to talk to the same printer on, you know, the third, 00:08:21.169 --> 00:08:25.230 the third floor office printer. But if we go redo the underlying networking, 00:08:25.915 --> 00:08:27.256 that shouldn't have to be a big deal. 00:08:28.016 --> 00:08:28.248 Yeah. 00:08:28.579 --> 00:08:32.962 And then already they also had this hilarious protocol called AARP. 00:08:34.815 --> 00:08:41.205 Oh, yeah. It's not the, you know, American Association of Retired Persons or 00:08:41.205 --> 00:08:42.669 whatever the correct abbreviation is. 00:08:42.930 --> 00:08:46.412 It's the Apple Talk Address Resolution Protocol. 00:08:47.545 --> 00:08:52.405 And this is because like they did. So you have DDP, which is kind of sort of, 00:08:52.405 --> 00:08:55.045 you can imagine, it's like the, it's sort of the IP equivalent in this. 00:08:55.045 --> 00:08:56.925 So you have whatever you're doing at the physical layer. 00:08:57.273 --> 00:09:01.784 And then on top of that rides DDP, which is sort of the thing that actually has the address. 00:09:02.724 --> 00:09:05.525 which is like three little components one of that's a socket one of that's a 00:09:05.525 --> 00:09:09.065 local address and once they got routing which they didn't have originally they 00:09:09.065 --> 00:09:10.915 added like a global thing that's 00:09:10.915 --> 00:09:13.841 sort of like the router number so you can have separate sub networks, 00:09:14.508 --> 00:09:19.698 but you need a way if you have this apple layer address how do you get the like 00:09:19.872 --> 00:09:23.935 ethernet address or whatever on the physical media that's where aarp comes in 00:09:24.330 --> 00:09:28.435 so like already and they had this concept where you could go from a human-friendly 00:09:28.435 --> 00:09:32.095 name of your printer and then you distribute it without a centralized server 00:09:32.095 --> 00:09:36.265 you ask the network hey what's the you know the apple address of this so you 00:09:36.265 --> 00:09:39.011 get that back then and of course you this all gets cash too, 00:09:39.475 --> 00:09:43.075 and then from that you go hey how do i find that on this like ethernet network 00:09:43.075 --> 00:09:46.665 that i'm actually on and you get that back and then you can open a ddp, 00:09:47.439 --> 00:09:51.255 um which is datagram delivery protocol which is kind of like you can imagine 00:09:51.255 --> 00:09:54.195 at udp on ip but you don't even need a separate thing because it was just built 00:09:54.195 --> 00:10:00.198 into how it worked and then you can send basic unreliable networking and then on top of that, 00:10:01.318 --> 00:10:04.155 they kind of they kind of went a fascinating path because instead of starting 00:10:04.155 --> 00:10:09.765 with like TCP has these full like you know the SYNXN stuff and the bidirectional 00:10:09.765 --> 00:10:12.499 setup and all the things that come with TCP. 00:10:13.776 --> 00:10:18.802 They started with just little transactions. So they have ATP, 00:10:18.802 --> 00:10:23.432 which is AppleTalk Transaction Protocol, which is just request and response. 00:10:23.432 --> 00:10:26.802 It's almost like an RPC thing. So it wasn't meant to be this open-ended, 00:10:26.802 --> 00:10:27.981 long-living connection. 00:10:28.184 --> 00:10:33.282 It limits, like it only allows up to eight request packets, which is kind of fascinating. 00:10:33.282 --> 00:10:38.442 And then only later, after it was sort of proven out, because this was really 00:10:38.442 --> 00:10:43.641 early, right? Networking was still becoming like a thing consumers even did or had access to. 00:10:44.123 --> 00:10:49.249 later on they added the apple talk data stream protocol which is basically the tcp equivalent 00:10:49.649 --> 00:10:54.202 it's reliable ordered bi-directional byte stream but it kind of has some of 00:10:54.202 --> 00:10:57.882 their own twists it has symmetric teardown it has a notion of an out of band 00:10:57.882 --> 00:11:00.278 attention message so if you need to send some urgent 00:11:00.621 --> 00:11:03.332 message but you don't want it to be stuck in the queue behind whatever you've 00:11:03.332 --> 00:11:05.213 already sent it has an idea for that. 00:11:05.863 --> 00:11:07.872 Yeah you could do that for like server shutdown alerts. 00:11:07.872 --> 00:11:12.022 Exactly and they have a way to say like oh i you know just i need to shut this 00:11:12.022 --> 00:11:14.628 down early so reject everything that's going to come after this. 00:11:15.591 --> 00:11:18.467 Kind of fascinating. It's like a whole parallel stack of things. 00:11:18.467 --> 00:11:21.247 And that's before you even get to the application layer where you might build 00:11:21.247 --> 00:11:26.493 something like an AppleTalk filing server with the AFP, the AppleTalk filing protocol. 00:11:27.033 --> 00:11:29.767 Where they would take advantage of some of the built-in protocol stuff like, 00:11:29.767 --> 00:11:32.367 we're shutting down the server for 10 minutes. So back in the day, 00:11:33.093 --> 00:11:36.967 you would alert the network before the services went unavailable because that 00:11:36.967 --> 00:11:40.776 was just built into AppleTalk. And then they built in a way to display the message into macOS. 00:11:41.345 --> 00:11:44.187 They also had an interesting concept, which we don't really need to get into 00:11:44.187 --> 00:11:48.317 for today too much, but of zones which kind of went along with these names and 00:11:48.317 --> 00:11:51.677 zones are fascinating because instead of like usually when we do something like 00:11:51.677 --> 00:11:53.547 vlans or we think about network segments 00:11:53.942 --> 00:11:57.517 it's at least somewhat related to the physical layer or however it's like you 00:11:57.517 --> 00:12:00.908 know worked out and the actual the cabling of it or where the switch is involved, 00:12:01.518 --> 00:12:06.117 but zones were meant to be social like zones are not connected, 00:12:06.577 --> 00:12:09.607 in the first version they were but in the second version they like sort of totally 00:12:09.607 --> 00:12:13.267 decoupled from the actual networking side of it and so they're really more meant 00:12:13.267 --> 00:12:16.175 for the human layers of how you want to associate these names 00:12:16.541 --> 00:12:20.017 and then all of the infrastructure on the apple talk side figured out how to 00:12:20.017 --> 00:12:22.944 map the zones across different routers and all of that under the hood 00:12:23.373 --> 00:12:25.867 so they were really ahead in multiple ways i. 00:12:25.867 --> 00:12:29.617 Think it was like more complex than say like even work groups were in windows. 00:12:29.617 --> 00:12:35.489 Yeah i think i have a question at this point in the show um why did we get rid of this. 00:12:35.819 --> 00:12:42.337 It sounds freaking great how cool is the decentralized like name discovery stuff. I know. I know. 00:12:42.877 --> 00:12:45.267 Now I understand your existential crisis. 00:12:45.267 --> 00:12:52.077 It was it was so simple. And imagine the type of customers out there like schools 00:12:52.077 --> 00:12:54.197 and offices where they they they're 00:12:54.197 --> 00:12:56.490 not really even intending to build a network because like Wes said. 00:12:57.604 --> 00:13:01.303 The consumer didn't even know what a network was, but they knew that they wanted 00:13:01.303 --> 00:13:04.408 to share a printer, right? That was sort of their level. 00:13:05.293 --> 00:13:09.383 And so offices and schools, governments, like they were buying these computers 00:13:09.551 --> 00:13:12.833 and they still weren't understanding the benefits of networking. 00:13:12.833 --> 00:13:15.594 So they would have them and they wouldn't even necessarily connect them. 00:13:16.076 --> 00:13:22.143 And so companies like Apple and others had to put together essentially presentations 00:13:22.143 --> 00:13:26.733 and sales pitches to try to convince corporate America why they wanted computer networking. 00:13:39.546 --> 00:13:44.055 So what does it look like what's what look like the network well you can't see 00:13:44.055 --> 00:13:49.675 it's not a thing it's a system okay so when did we get the system put in you 00:13:49.675 --> 00:13:51.278 mean when did we get the computers put in, 00:13:52.381 --> 00:13:57.136 what do you mean well that's when the system began and we've been adding to it ever since. 00:13:59.323 --> 00:14:03.765 You just put a computer in and it'll add to it um and like we said most systems 00:14:03.765 --> 00:14:09.185 back then not using TCP IP, each vendor had their own networking solution. 00:14:09.754 --> 00:14:13.603 And even people that were considered computer experts at the time, 00:14:14.259 --> 00:14:18.485 they needed their heads to kind of wrap, they needed to wrap their heads around it. This is a clip. 00:14:19.405 --> 00:14:23.469 I think it's from 1987 from the Computer Chronicles. 00:14:23.597 --> 00:14:26.725 To make it as similar to using local resources as you can. Chris, 00:14:26.725 --> 00:14:30.255 excuse me, describe the configuration we have here before you get going. 00:14:30.447 --> 00:14:34.690 What we have is a Macintosh 2 workstation, the color monitor here. 00:14:35.785 --> 00:14:37.952 This is connected to the file server over the network. 00:14:39.073 --> 00:14:42.735 The next is a Macintosh 2 that is actually functioning as the file server. 00:14:42.735 --> 00:14:45.625 It's running the Apple Share software, and you can see on its screen that it 00:14:45.625 --> 00:14:47.455 has a server status display. 00:14:47.896 --> 00:14:53.445 The next is the LaserWriter Plus printer, and then in front of Andrew is a Macintosh 00:14:53.445 --> 00:14:56.205 SE workstation, which is also connected to the file server. Okay, 00:14:56.205 --> 00:14:57.711 now show us how it all works. Okay. 00:14:57.938 --> 00:15:00.875 The local hard disk is represented by this icon. 00:15:00.875 --> 00:15:05.362 And when we open that up, we can see folders or the equivalent of subdirectories 00:15:05.571 --> 00:15:09.135 that are stored locally on this Macintosh 2. Each one of those little cards 00:15:09.135 --> 00:15:10.475 is a subdirectory. That's right. 00:15:10.475 --> 00:15:14.125 And if we open that up, we can see whether... Well, that one's empty. 00:15:14.865 --> 00:15:19.565 Okay. We can see the programs or documents that are stored inside. And those are files. 00:15:19.965 --> 00:15:23.845 Those are icons for files. And we could have additional folders stored within that. 00:15:24.547 --> 00:15:30.003 Now, when we open up the file server volume, you'll notice that the remote information, 00:15:30.003 --> 00:15:33.933 the representation of that, is nearly identical to the local information. 00:15:33.933 --> 00:15:36.243 And in fact, we work with it in just the same way. Now, Chris, 00:15:36.243 --> 00:15:38.305 one of those folders is gray. 00:15:38.734 --> 00:15:44.323 That's right. Some folder, in the Macintosh, there's a metaphor for resources 00:15:44.323 --> 00:15:47.433 that you don't have access to are grayed out. For example, if we go up into 00:15:47.433 --> 00:15:50.703 this menu, you'll see that some of the selections are grayed because we can't 00:15:50.703 --> 00:15:52.985 use those at this time. There's nothing in the trash, so we can't empty that. 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:56.549 The same way, a folder that we can't have access to is grayed, 00:15:56.752 --> 00:15:59.903 and when we try to open it, indeed, we get a message that says we don't have access. 00:15:59.903 --> 00:16:03.101 And you don't have access to that because? Because the owner, 00:16:03.474 --> 00:16:06.993 who has control over giving access to other users, has kept that private. 00:16:06.993 --> 00:16:08.755 In fact, this is a special kind of folder. 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:12.205 This is what we call a drop folder. I can make changes to that folder, 00:16:12.396 --> 00:16:17.046 but I can't see what's inside. This is sort of like analogous to the mailbox that's on the corner. 00:16:17.226 --> 00:16:20.070 You can go and put things in, but you can't see what's inside there. 00:16:20.255 --> 00:16:25.113 And it might be useful for if you were doing status reports or performance reviews, 00:16:25.413 --> 00:16:29.010 you can submit those and no one but the manager has access to them. 00:16:29.162 --> 00:16:33.183 Oh, I see. Oh, interesting, he says. And those are folders? Oh, 00:16:33.183 --> 00:16:36.278 OK. So this is very early. 00:16:37.549 --> 00:16:42.677 Immediately when Linux came on the scene, it was such a unique beast in this 00:16:42.677 --> 00:16:46.982 paradigm because Linux had no vendor affiliation. 00:16:47.313 --> 00:16:51.007 If you built support for Linux, it would work. So you started to see different 00:16:51.007 --> 00:16:52.477 protocols start to be built for 00:16:52.477 --> 00:16:57.791 Linux and it could speak all of one server could talk to the NetWare box. 00:16:58.128 --> 00:17:03.132 The Windows systems with Samba and the Apple systems with Netatalk and Appletalk. 00:17:03.364 --> 00:17:08.333 One system could do all of it. And it was such a powerful thing early in the early days with Linux. 00:17:09.012 --> 00:17:13.347 But we didn't start there. Initially, before Linux just came around and did 00:17:13.347 --> 00:17:19.270 this, entire companies existed just to solve the cross-networking protocol issue 00:17:19.636 --> 00:17:22.068 that Linux would just come in and do natively. 00:17:22.468 --> 00:17:27.197 There were entire businesses, multiple of them, that were selling hardware and 00:17:27.197 --> 00:17:29.869 software trying to solve this multi-protocol world. 00:17:30.134 --> 00:17:34.557 When the accounting firm of Arthur Young & Company decided to install an integrated 00:17:34.557 --> 00:17:37.501 network, it was faced with some special problems. 00:17:37.959 --> 00:17:43.067 At the San Jose, California branch, incompatible hardware is divided into different 00:17:43.067 --> 00:17:45.889 parallel networks on three floors of offices. 00:17:46.586 --> 00:17:51.026 On the eighth floor, Macintoshes are everywhere. But on the lower floors, 00:17:51.212 --> 00:17:53.498 IBM compatibles have the upper hand. 00:17:54.172 --> 00:17:58.947 Today, the company is testing a new gateway that allows any user to communicate 00:17:58.947 --> 00:18:00.551 with any part of the network. 00:18:01.521 --> 00:18:07.917 What we're really addressing here is the ability to take an existing network, 00:18:08.876 --> 00:18:13.154 that was designed exclusively for a single environment, DOS in this case, 00:18:14.158 --> 00:18:17.479 and gatewaying that to the Macintosh world. 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:22.186 What we're able to do is we have to dedicate a machine that is a gateway. 00:18:22.633 --> 00:18:27.907 it's a DOS box it has an ARCNET card in it it has an AppleTalk card in it talks 00:18:27.907 --> 00:18:32.461 to both networks and the bottom line is it is, 00:18:33.553 --> 00:18:38.562 for all intents and purposes, seamless, because any file that's published over 00:18:38.562 --> 00:18:42.643 NetBIOS is available to whoever has access to it, 00:18:43.682 --> 00:18:48.582 is also available to anybody on the Macintosh side through that gateway machine. 00:18:49.695 --> 00:18:55.877 3Com file servers presently link different machines and different networks over the telephone lines. 00:18:56.348 --> 00:19:00.812 While the so-called interbridge talks to all the networks, the decision to keep 00:19:00.812 --> 00:19:04.318 different machines led to frustrations and delays. 00:19:04.724 --> 00:19:08.832 I guess the biggest problem was just coming to terms with the true capabilities 00:19:08.832 --> 00:19:13.192 of the network, not pushing the network beyond what it was expected to do. 00:19:13.322 --> 00:19:19.402 The problem used to be things like corrupted data and file allocation tables 00:19:19.402 --> 00:19:21.059 that go out of whack and things like that. 00:19:22.093 --> 00:19:26.142 But, you know, the problems we face now are just spending a lot of time trying 00:19:26.142 --> 00:19:28.101 something that was never intended to work. 00:19:28.304 --> 00:19:33.062 And you get to the end, and the bottom line is it doesn't work, 00:19:33.062 --> 00:19:34.875 and you've just spent a lot of time trying it. 00:19:35.136 --> 00:19:41.586 So I think it's to the point now where it's not causing the users problems. 00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:44.790 It's causing the people who are trying to push the technology problems. 00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:50.742 The Mac to IBM gateway is not yet perfected. It took several tries to transfer 00:19:50.742 --> 00:19:52.475 a file for this demonstration. 00:19:53.078 --> 00:19:57.832 But its appeal is undeniable. Through the Interbridge, a user can retrieve a 00:19:57.832 --> 00:20:03.748 formatted document, send a memo, or electronic mail literally to anywhere on the network. 00:20:04.700 --> 00:20:10.726 At Arthur Young, Macintoshes outnumber IBMs, still an unusual sight in the business world. 00:20:11.103 --> 00:20:15.482 It's common to see accountants lugging Macs back into their offices from field 00:20:15.482 --> 00:20:17.041 trips to clients' offices. 00:20:17.610 --> 00:20:21.302 And in spite of some persistent bugs in the Mac to IBM network, 00:20:21.622 --> 00:20:26.322 the company plans to expand its system to provide network access from remote 00:20:26.322 --> 00:20:31.060 locations and a wide area network to link offices around the world. 00:20:35.027 --> 00:20:39.456 All right. So that just really brings me back. At the end there, 00:20:39.456 --> 00:20:43.014 there's a gal. She's carrying a giant bag with a Mac in there, all the wires. 00:20:43.362 --> 00:20:47.856 I think that really, I mean, it kind of hits on what they were designing for, right? 00:20:47.856 --> 00:20:52.816 Like people were doing that. Some businesses were just adopting, 00:20:52.816 --> 00:20:56.436 you know, computers of this size and scale. So some people needed to bring it 00:20:56.436 --> 00:21:00.396 with them, maybe to the job site or plug into an existing network and have it just work. 00:21:00.536 --> 00:21:01.356 There was no Wi-Fi. 00:21:01.356 --> 00:21:05.485 Right. And there might not really be a dedicated IT person there. 00:21:05.863 --> 00:21:08.886 So that's where a lot of the Apple talk design comes in is where they needed 00:21:08.886 --> 00:21:12.536 it to be sort of decentralized so that it could be self-discoverable. 00:21:12.536 --> 00:21:15.255 Now, the downside is, of course, there's not really any security built in. 00:21:15.615 --> 00:21:19.176 And it comes like they sort of assume smaller networks. So a lot of this is 00:21:19.176 --> 00:21:21.706 broadcast based over that local network. 00:21:21.706 --> 00:21:25.256 But and you didn't have a lot of network performance back then. 00:21:25.256 --> 00:21:28.727 So, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there were some upsides. 00:21:29.232 --> 00:21:34.386 although what i find to be fascinating about the story um and really linux was 00:21:34.386 --> 00:21:37.290 the great unifier so it didn't matter we're going to get more into our experiments here, 00:21:38.172 --> 00:21:43.196 on the little land that we built and all of that but if you dig around in the 00:21:43.196 --> 00:21:46.955 late 80s there was some writing on the wall, 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:55.216 there would be slowly and then suddenly this new open standard that only weirdos 00:21:55.216 --> 00:21:58.016 were using at the time, something called TCPIP. 00:21:59.776 --> 00:22:02.474 ...in Palo Alto, where Wendy Woods reports. 00:22:04.390 --> 00:22:08.872 Stanford University has one of the largest campus computer networks in the country. 00:22:09.226 --> 00:22:14.527 Some 1,300 computers, ranging from Macintoshes, sophisticated workstations, 00:22:14.527 --> 00:22:22.264 and PCs, to Vaxes, Microvaxes, and IBM mainframes, all talk to each other via the Ethernet network. 00:22:22.844 --> 00:22:27.210 In various closets across the campus, you can see the gateways and repeaters, 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:32.746 in lay terms, the traffic hops that make the system work across the vast distances required. 00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:37.457 This impressive network even spreads into the dormitories, where students have 00:22:37.457 --> 00:22:42.187 access to bulletin boards, job banks, even the full bibliographic holdings of 00:22:42.187 --> 00:22:44.403 the Stanford University library system. 00:22:45.064 --> 00:22:49.667 They can do assigned courses in programming, even send mail to their instructors 00:22:49.667 --> 00:22:51.357 or anyone else on campus. 00:22:52.100 --> 00:22:56.251 Networking director Bill Yunt says tying all these diverse systems together 00:22:56.448 --> 00:22:59.279 with Macintoshes came with a few tradeoffs. 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:05.149 The way we've chosen to do that is by writing software that runs in a compatible 00:23:05.149 --> 00:23:09.629 fashion with the other machines on the network that share the protocol family called TCPIP. 00:23:10.397 --> 00:23:15.289 And allow a Macintosh to sit on an AppleTalk network and be connected through 00:23:15.289 --> 00:23:20.619 the AppleTalk network to our Ethernets so that they look to the rest of the 00:23:20.619 --> 00:23:22.379 network as though they're physically connected. 00:23:22.379 --> 00:23:27.159 connected to the Ethernet. Macintoshes are slow and have only single-tasking 00:23:27.159 --> 00:23:29.982 operating systems, but students love them. 00:23:30.296 --> 00:23:33.105 They're easy to operate and good teaching machines. 00:23:33.552 --> 00:23:37.479 The most common way Macs are used is in classrooms. In small, 00:23:37.479 --> 00:23:41.939 local area networks such as this interactive classroom, the Macintoshes share 00:23:41.939 --> 00:23:45.325 software programs stored in a designated file server. 00:23:45.940 --> 00:23:50.410 What's on the instructor's machine can be viewed on all the students' Macintoshes, 00:23:50.857 --> 00:23:55.716 or his Macintosh can be used to view what's running on individual students' computers. 00:23:56.325 --> 00:24:00.615 So far, French history and computer literacy have been taught this way. 00:24:00.929 --> 00:24:04.619 Linking all computers on campuses is an increasing phenomenon throughout the 00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:06.037 nation's top universities. 00:24:06.443 --> 00:24:11.229 MIT and Carnegie Mellon are two other outstanding examples, but the people here 00:24:11.229 --> 00:24:14.929 say they're ahead of the rest because they've found a way to make their network 00:24:14.929 --> 00:24:19.023 useful, with top researchers and freshman students alike. 00:24:19.685 --> 00:24:23.278 At Stanford University, for the Computer Chronicles, I'm Wendy Woods. 00:24:41.489 --> 00:24:45.858 Well, I think you boys have been playing with Apple Talk. I mean, 00:24:45.858 --> 00:24:49.378 you can't just talk about it for half an episode and then not have some kind 00:24:49.378 --> 00:24:54.562 of crazy experiment going on. So what the heck did you build this week? 00:24:55.427 --> 00:24:59.048 Well, you know, it all came from we got to send this thing off properly, 00:24:59.048 --> 00:25:04.083 but nothing on Linux uses Apple Talk anymore. I mean, there's Netatalk. 00:25:04.442 --> 00:25:07.473 There's Netatalk, right? That is legitimately a use. 00:25:08.478 --> 00:25:14.458 It's an open source, essentially, file server. that acts as an Apple file server 00:25:14.458 --> 00:25:17.138 to other Apple Macs. And you can talk to a Linux box over that. 00:25:17.138 --> 00:25:18.478 It's been around since the 90s. 00:25:18.478 --> 00:25:19.038 GPL too. 00:25:19.038 --> 00:25:19.429 It's great. 00:25:21.270 --> 00:25:23.660 I have it installed on my machine right now just for today's episode, 00:25:23.660 --> 00:25:26.800 and it's probably been a decade since I set it up. 00:25:26.800 --> 00:25:32.007 You can tell when it's from because it's 91.9% C and 3.6% Perl. 00:25:32.896 --> 00:25:38.080 Yep. And it comes with two daemons. The ATOC-D handles the user-level AppleTalk 00:25:38.080 --> 00:25:40.700 networking management on the server, so that does routing stuff, 00:25:40.700 --> 00:25:43.820 node assignment, zone backup. You need something on the network kind of doing 00:25:43.820 --> 00:25:45.579 this for what we wanted to do. 00:25:46.510 --> 00:25:49.460 That's the piece that helps Mac clients when they go into, like, 00:25:49.460 --> 00:25:51.901 Chooser or something. That helps them, like, discover everything. 00:25:52.790 --> 00:25:56.120 And this server can kind of do that for us. So I got that all running and set 00:25:56.120 --> 00:25:58.530 up. But I'll tell you why in a minute. 00:25:59.030 --> 00:26:03.000 And I also worked on a couple of projects. 00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:07.830 I know, Wes, you swore up to, like, way too late, not just enjoying fireworks, 00:26:07.830 --> 00:26:12.440 but also building projects to try to put together a little, you know, 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:15.097 demonstration of using AppleTalk on Linux. 00:26:15.770 --> 00:26:18.570 And then for fun, why not work on maybe a classic Mac as well, 00:26:18.570 --> 00:26:21.370 right? Just to kind of make it all come together. 00:26:21.370 --> 00:26:25.046 Yeah, we might have gotten distracted on the classic Mac side. 00:26:25.778 --> 00:26:26.910 Yeah, let's talk about that for a 00:26:26.910 --> 00:26:31.670 minute. So I built a little app called Chooser, which is up on my GitHub. 00:26:31.803 --> 00:26:37.748 And it is a TUI client for Linux that browses Apple file shares. And it talks Apple talk. 00:26:38.415 --> 00:26:46.850 And so I got my Linux box and a Mac OS 8.1 VM talking, running under Baskill 2. Yeah. 00:26:48.888 --> 00:26:49.776 Yeah, it was great, dude. 00:26:49.776 --> 00:26:50.296 What? 00:26:50.836 --> 00:26:57.520 I was emulating a Quadra-class 68K Mac, 608040, 32 megabytes of RAM, because why not? 00:26:57.660 --> 00:26:59.296 This is so ridiculous. 00:26:59.676 --> 00:27:03.856 I got it working with my Ethernet, so it had bridge-style LAN access. 00:27:04.276 --> 00:27:07.290 So I actually had an old Mac with Ethernet. 00:27:08.173 --> 00:27:13.181 It's crazy how fast it is, right? I've never used this operating system on a machine like this. 00:27:13.378 --> 00:27:15.828 I mean, this is not a very fast machine, but compared to old Macs, 00:27:17.036 --> 00:27:18.487 it boots in like three seconds. 00:27:19.656 --> 00:27:20.596 Oh, wow. 00:27:20.596 --> 00:27:24.646 It's like XFCE, it's like that, but squared. 00:27:24.646 --> 00:27:32.596 Crazy, crazy. So I got the Linux host using Netatalk, which then I shared out 00:27:32.596 --> 00:27:34.677 a directory, an AFP file share. 00:27:35.745 --> 00:27:40.296 And then from Mac OS 8.1, I used chooser to talk to that. And I could also use 00:27:40.296 --> 00:27:42.311 my chooser on the Linux side, little TUI. 00:27:43.251 --> 00:27:47.158 And once I had a volume on Linux that I could connect to from the classic Mac, 00:27:48.649 --> 00:27:54.126 I realized the main thing holding Mac OS 8.1 is it comes with like Netscape 00:27:54.126 --> 00:27:55.736 3, Netscape Navigator 3. 00:27:56.694 --> 00:27:59.886 And I was like, well, I can't use that to download stuff. But I could on my 00:27:59.886 --> 00:28:03.445 Linux desktop. So I went and downloaded a bunch of classic games. 00:28:04.316 --> 00:28:07.706 And I put them in the share. And I thought, all right, now I've got a nice, 00:28:07.706 --> 00:28:10.608 easy way to move my games between my Linux box and my Mac. 00:28:11.821 --> 00:28:16.987 But time has moved on, my friends. And what we forget is that classic Macs, 00:28:17.527 --> 00:28:19.420 they didn't use file extensions. 00:28:20.076 --> 00:28:25.656 They had, every file had a delta fork and a resource fork and a finder metadata type. 00:28:25.656 --> 00:28:28.086 Because I ran into this too. Boy. 00:28:28.086 --> 00:28:33.236 Creator codes and all. Oh! So you can't just like move files because the Mac 00:28:33.236 --> 00:28:34.556 doesn't know what the file is. 00:28:35.176 --> 00:28:38.316 It doesn't do anything with a .bin or a .zip or a .sit. 00:28:39.756 --> 00:28:40.985 Oh, .sits. 00:28:41.595 --> 00:28:46.226 Oh. So, like, you can't just copy and move them. 00:28:46.226 --> 00:28:49.366 So I went through all this trouble of getting file sharing working for Bubkis 00:28:49.366 --> 00:28:56.006 because the real move was to download image versions of them and mount them 00:28:56.006 --> 00:28:59.520 into my VM and install them that way. 00:29:00.339 --> 00:29:03.926 And then later on, I got an app called Disk Copy, which supposedly can mount 00:29:03.926 --> 00:29:05.558 these directly inside macOS. 00:29:05.685 --> 00:29:11.386 You know what I was having work was, because I was using, I think I did use 00:29:11.386 --> 00:29:12.356 Nettock a bit, but I also, 00:29:13.236 --> 00:29:18.956 your chooser was built on TailTalk, which is a modern async user-spaced AppleTalk 00:29:18.956 --> 00:29:24.503 stack in Rust that we were playing with. Yeah, so you can build a bunch of stuff on there. 00:29:24.851 --> 00:29:29.306 And it also comes with like a little demo AFP server. So I was getting that 00:29:29.306 --> 00:29:31.923 going too. And I was noticing... 00:29:33.699 --> 00:29:37.704 It seemed to work better. I was able to, I couldn't copy, but I could run. 00:29:38.401 --> 00:29:42.697 And so like once I had gone through the dance of getting the correct version, 00:29:42.697 --> 00:29:47.300 most modern version of stuff at Expander going, right? Like I was then able 00:29:47.573 --> 00:29:48.728 to install stuff that way. 00:29:49.367 --> 00:29:53.237 Yes. Yeah, I had to start with like version three and then go to version five 00:29:53.237 --> 00:29:55.247 for some reason. There was a bit of a journey. 00:29:56.607 --> 00:29:59.694 But everything installs so flipping fast, it doesn't matter. 00:30:00.228 --> 00:30:05.724 It just, it's bonkers how fast everything is. And once you have this unlock, 00:30:06.037 --> 00:30:11.197 there is a absolute massive library out there on Internet Archive. 00:30:11.197 --> 00:30:16.897 We'll link to one in the show notes and others of Mac apps, classic retro Mac 00:30:16.897 --> 00:30:19.453 app games. So we'll talk more about that, I suppose, later. 00:30:19.934 --> 00:30:28.572 But at one point I had the Knicks station, the Knicks book and fake Mac all talking to each other. 00:30:29.925 --> 00:30:33.327 all there's also apple talk had this concept of ping back in the day go figure 00:30:33.594 --> 00:30:36.447 and they could all ping each other and all discover each other all use their 00:30:36.447 --> 00:30:39.087 actual names they were all using real names, 00:30:40.502 --> 00:30:46.057 i mean the hardest bit is what's available on linux today pretty much only works 00:30:46.057 --> 00:30:49.650 in kind of a limited capacity you kind of have everything has to be on the same network segment, 00:30:51.038 --> 00:30:54.737 ideally like not even across different switches and things like that but if 00:30:54.737 --> 00:30:59.072 you meet these little requirements, you can essentially, with what we have today, with the, 00:30:59.844 --> 00:31:03.577 with like the chooser TUI app I created, or just what's available with the work 00:31:03.577 --> 00:31:06.611 in progress demo app that comes with that project Wes was talking about, 00:31:07.139 --> 00:31:10.967 you can create a local LAN that doesn't use TCP IP and start immediately chatting 00:31:10.967 --> 00:31:12.597 amongst yourselves and moving files between them. 00:31:12.597 --> 00:31:16.114 Now, it's not really very good because it's not designed to move large files around. 00:31:17.918 --> 00:31:21.419 But it's incredible how it's still available today. Something from 1985. 00:31:21.529 --> 00:31:22.158 And it still works. 00:31:22.158 --> 00:31:23.568 Still available today. And it still works. 00:31:23.568 --> 00:31:26.708 I think there's something so, like, we just live in a world where, 00:31:26.708 --> 00:31:29.898 like, it's so obvious, so much of the stack, right? Like, HTTPS, 00:31:29.898 --> 00:31:33.298 and there's so many layers down from that that's all decided essentially for 00:31:33.298 --> 00:31:35.542 us just by what everyone else is doing. 00:31:36.076 --> 00:31:39.598 And so the idea that you can have this whole, like, it's the same wires, 00:31:39.598 --> 00:31:43.623 but there's a whole parallel thing going on of what's inside them. 00:31:44.023 --> 00:31:48.058 and at the same time from linux like there's libraries now right that you can 00:31:48.058 --> 00:31:52.328 you can play with that you can read it tcp dump i had that going as i was debugging 00:31:52.328 --> 00:31:55.418 a bunch of this and like it just shows you exactly it's nice simple packets 00:31:55.418 --> 00:31:57.410 the protocol is easy to see what's happening, 00:31:57.897 --> 00:32:02.978 um so it's kind of a great little play box to learn more about networking because 00:32:02.978 --> 00:32:07.298 it is kind of relatively it's both different enough to to make you think and 00:32:07.298 --> 00:32:09.042 simple enough to be able to wrap your head around. 00:32:10.157 --> 00:32:14.315 So you and I both built a couple of, like, MVP demo kind of apps. 00:32:14.315 --> 00:32:18.627 Mine is Chooser, you know, to browse the AppleTalk network and stuff like that. A little TUI. 00:32:19.393 --> 00:32:23.230 It works surprisingly well. It has to be a little hacky with some packet capture, 00:32:23.932 --> 00:32:28.095 to get everything. So you do have to have, like, sudo access to run that. 00:32:28.095 --> 00:32:30.725 And that's true for a lot of this stuff. Or you can, if you set, 00:32:30.725 --> 00:32:35.653 like, raw packet as a capability on the binary, you can do it that way, too. 00:32:36.483 --> 00:32:39.931 Okay. Yeah, so that's good, too. You can do that. It's not a beautiful app, 00:32:40.076 --> 00:32:41.945 but the TUI works and it gets the job done. 00:32:42.245 --> 00:32:44.585 But I'd love to hear what you were up late building with. 00:32:44.993 --> 00:32:48.308 Well, I went down a rabbit hole and I didn't really finish everything. 00:32:48.517 --> 00:32:53.145 My first example was, so a big motivation for a lot of this stuff from the Apple 00:32:53.145 --> 00:32:58.775 side was for printers, right? And so that's where you actually wanted, 00:32:58.775 --> 00:33:01.373 they wanted a way to be able to connect printers, share printer. 00:33:01.646 --> 00:33:05.505 And so as part of Apple Talk, there's the printer access protocol, which is PAP. 00:33:06.197 --> 00:33:09.175 And of course, under the hood, it uses a bunch of the other Apple Talk stuff 00:33:09.175 --> 00:33:11.635 to actually send the data to the printer and that kind of stuff. 00:33:11.635 --> 00:33:14.495 But it participates in the name binding protocol and all of that. 00:33:14.495 --> 00:33:18.095 So if you have a printer on your network, it's kind of like we're used to these 00:33:18.095 --> 00:33:20.256 days, but it worked very well back then. 00:33:22.445 --> 00:33:25.855 You do a query via broadcast to say, show me all the printers that look like 00:33:25.855 --> 00:33:28.157 this on the network, or you could filter by zone or whatever. 00:33:28.656 --> 00:33:32.156 And then they send you your info back and you can configure them and connect. 00:33:32.743 --> 00:33:37.190 So I made a little demo that you could run on the Linux side with GoScript and stuff. 00:33:37.927 --> 00:33:42.107 It wasn't perfect, but at least the data capture worked, is you could go get 00:33:42.357 --> 00:33:47.005 something like KidPix going, do some art in your old Apple Mac, 00:33:47.406 --> 00:33:50.645 and then hit print to your AppleTalk printer, 00:33:51.145 --> 00:33:55.385 and then have this Rust app actually take that and then save that as a file on Linux. 00:33:55.385 --> 00:33:57.815 Obviously, you could copy it out, but I thought it would be kind of fun if you 00:33:57.815 --> 00:33:59.825 could just print it right out of the VM. 00:34:00.605 --> 00:34:04.878 That's actually a great use because Kid Picks is fun to play around with. 00:34:06.068 --> 00:34:08.784 And there's a lot of fun stuff you can do, like art tools, right? 00:34:08.784 --> 00:34:12.244 Like a lot of these Macs were kind of some of the early areas where a lot of 00:34:12.244 --> 00:34:15.222 digital arts were being explored. So there's a ton of software for it, 00:34:15.913 --> 00:34:18.494 even old video stuff. But yeah, so that worked. 00:34:19.112 --> 00:34:22.954 Some nuances in getting exactly the right protocol stuff working, 00:34:22.954 --> 00:34:25.131 which is where I got TCP dump involved. 00:34:25.596 --> 00:34:29.706 Because the printing would work, but exactly making it so that the printer, 00:34:30.472 --> 00:34:33.794 app and the queue and stuff, which, gosh, do you think of how far ahead they 00:34:33.794 --> 00:34:37.728 were from windows already in this stuff even in this world it's just wild yeah 00:34:37.728 --> 00:34:41.294 to make it kind of happy with like that it successfully printed and didn't think 00:34:41.294 --> 00:34:44.108 i it needed to be canceled took a lot longer than i thought, 00:34:44.990 --> 00:34:49.604 but where i really got off the rails is i discovered that there is something 00:34:49.604 --> 00:34:59.314 called retro 68 a gcc based cross compiler for classic 68k and power pc macintoshes, 00:35:02.654 --> 00:35:09.804 and in their readme i noticed uh using retro 68 with nix so you can just do 00:35:09.804 --> 00:35:15.804 nix develop and point it at their github and after you know a few minutes tens 00:35:15.804 --> 00:35:17.634 of minutes compiling you get, 00:35:18.554 --> 00:35:23.186 a build environment that you can build stuff that runs in the old bank. 00:35:23.801 --> 00:35:24.054 No 00:35:24.614 --> 00:35:25.914 It is insane. 00:35:25.914 --> 00:35:27.414 You are kidding me. 00:35:27.414 --> 00:35:32.674 Nope so then you could you could build that you get a dot bin out i put that 00:35:32.674 --> 00:35:34.474 on my afp share booted up the, 00:35:34.954 --> 00:35:38.454 you know basilisk going and then you run the dot bin and that extracts and then 00:35:38.454 --> 00:35:42.964 it's kind of hacky you had to like go out in the file explorer app and like 00:35:42.964 --> 00:35:45.854 go one layer back and open the folder again and then i would see the actual 00:35:45.854 --> 00:35:49.262 sort of executable resource there listed but then, 00:35:49.854 --> 00:35:55.214 i could run that and i got as far as like you would actually open up an app that didn't crash or, 00:35:56.294 --> 00:35:57.804 freeze the whole operating system. 00:35:57.804 --> 00:36:00.754 It would show text. It had a little, some debug information. 00:36:01.927 --> 00:36:06.385 My hope was, and it would be fun to finish, my hope was I could build 00:36:06.757 --> 00:36:12.145 like a two-part thing over AppleTalk that would let you have an MCP system on 00:36:12.145 --> 00:36:17.258 your host that could then like take screenshots or control stuff inside the Mac. 00:36:17.542 --> 00:36:19.174 Dude, you're time traveling. 00:36:19.510 --> 00:36:20.201 Well done. 00:36:21.461 --> 00:36:24.915 The hardest part was, and this is where I got more into the AppleTalk side, 00:36:24.915 --> 00:36:28.119 is it ended up that I was running an 8.1 system. 00:36:28.647 --> 00:36:28.909 Yeah. 00:36:29.205 --> 00:36:34.465 And it started having OpenTransport, which is where they were merging TCP. 00:36:34.465 --> 00:36:38.800 It's like one system that could do both TCP IP and all the AppleTalk stuff. 00:36:39.038 --> 00:36:42.272 But I believe if you install OpenTransport, AppleTalk is disabled. 00:36:42.585 --> 00:36:46.625 You can have it do both. I think that might be the default. So there's just 00:36:46.625 --> 00:36:50.108 some nuances, and maybe I have an easier time on 7. I might try that. 00:36:51.055 --> 00:36:55.495 Just because I was having the bot try to help me, and it was essentially trying 00:36:55.495 --> 00:36:58.715 to figure out, like, what is the right old Mac assembly traps? 00:36:58.715 --> 00:37:03.105 Like, oh, do I use the legacy API for doing the Apple Talk? So we were trying 00:37:03.105 --> 00:37:05.136 a little bit on serial. That might also work. But I wanted it. 00:37:05.281 --> 00:37:08.825 We got it as far as registering a name. But it wasn't quite as far as having 00:37:08.825 --> 00:37:12.903 it successfully receive a command over Apple Talk. But that'd be the next step. 00:37:13.809 --> 00:37:19.085 Wow. That's fun. We really should give a shout out to, how did you say it? 00:37:19.085 --> 00:37:20.595 Is it Basilisk? How do you say it? 00:37:20.675 --> 00:37:21.773 Yeah, Basilisk. 00:37:22.354 --> 00:37:26.615 Basilisk 2. Probably people are aware of it. But it's still out there. 00:37:26.615 --> 00:37:32.426 It's a great project to emulate old Mac OS 8 and 7 era Macintoshes. 00:37:32.861 --> 00:37:37.175 And the reality is there is so much good software and the firmware and the ROM 00:37:37.175 --> 00:37:41.945 files, they're all online. You can get access to everything you need to set 00:37:41.945 --> 00:37:45.785 up a really fun retro computing environment. Sometimes the sound's a little 00:37:45.785 --> 00:37:47.809 off. You might have to experiment with different ROMs. 00:37:49.121 --> 00:37:53.865 And you can absolutely share files between your Linux box and this thing just 00:37:53.865 --> 00:37:59.395 using Netatalk and Chooser. Or you can also just mount things directly in there. 00:37:59.395 --> 00:38:00.585 There's other options, too. 00:38:00.585 --> 00:38:03.997 For getting things in there. I did found for more things to explore. 00:38:05.117 --> 00:38:09.115 There's something called Global Talk. And this person has the best domain name 00:38:09.115 --> 00:38:13.436 ever. It's markintosh.com slash globaltalk.html. 00:38:13.859 --> 00:38:17.035 Global Talk is the nickname we've given to the practice of using an ancient 00:38:17.035 --> 00:38:21.835 Apple internet router software package. to bridge your local Apple Talk network 00:38:22.102 --> 00:38:25.736 to the global network of the internet and other people's vintage computers and printers. 00:38:26.325 --> 00:38:30.065 While nothing is stopping you from doing this all year, usage primarily spikes 00:38:30.065 --> 00:38:34.155 in March for Marchintosh. Ah, that's what it is. It's Marchintosh. 00:38:34.155 --> 00:38:34.925 That makes more sense. 00:38:35.565 --> 00:38:40.555 Amazing. This lets you and other Global Talk participants share files over Apple 00:38:40.555 --> 00:38:43.291 Share and print to each other's Apple Talk-enabled printers. 00:38:44.057 --> 00:38:44.625 Wow. 00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:46.065 Yeah. 00:38:46.065 --> 00:38:48.725 Is it 100% safe and secure? Actually, no. 00:38:48.725 --> 00:38:53.025 Probably not the only way to participate in this is to share your ip address 00:38:53.025 --> 00:38:55.905 on a spreadsheet and open a port for your router to allow these, 00:38:57.205 --> 00:39:00.695 so as part of that i found there's a couple pieces of software but one of one 00:39:00.695 --> 00:39:05.015 of them is what's called j router which is a homegrown alternative implementation 00:39:05.015 --> 00:39:10.387 of apple internet router 3.0 and so in the first local talk era era, 00:39:10.851 --> 00:39:14.455 apple talk was only local but then they added these internet routers and so 00:39:14.455 --> 00:39:18.270 they changed like they added another segment onto like the three segment 00:39:18.636 --> 00:39:22.485 protocol address that was like a global number so you could then have routing 00:39:22.485 --> 00:39:26.641 between these different networks and so you needed some sort of router software to do that 00:39:26.955 --> 00:39:29.995 and so in theory and we didn't quite get this far in theory i think we could 00:39:29.995 --> 00:39:33.985 have this j router going maybe on a mesh network or something and then. 00:39:33.985 --> 00:39:34.855 I was thinking yep. 00:39:34.855 --> 00:39:39.965 Be able to bridge our local apple talk environments and that's apparently what people are doing in. 00:39:42.261 --> 00:39:42.790 Wow. 00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:43.689 Yeah. 00:39:43.689 --> 00:39:44.579 Brent set a reminder. 00:39:44.579 --> 00:39:48.222 So, yeah. March is the time to do that, really. 00:39:49.261 --> 00:39:50.677 Yeah, you're going to be cold inside. 00:39:50.851 --> 00:39:51.869 Yeah, but I get the feeling we're 00:39:51.869 --> 00:39:55.709 going to be doing this next episode with your energy around all this. 00:39:56.349 --> 00:40:01.649 It was a lot of fun. I did not expect the nostalgia hit as hard when you fire 00:40:01.649 --> 00:40:02.569 up some of those old games. 00:40:04.441 --> 00:40:08.979 The real question, though, Chris, is are you feeling better about Apple Talk 00:40:08.979 --> 00:40:10.019 being pulled out of the kernel? 00:40:10.763 --> 00:40:15.784 Not really, no. I mean, I get it. I absolutely, rationally, I get it. 00:40:16.417 --> 00:40:24.636 But I don't know if I could properly put you in the headspace of late 90s, early aughts. 00:40:25.165 --> 00:40:29.008 We've kind of come to this collision point where we have a lot of TCP IP. 00:40:29.536 --> 00:40:34.807 The internet is a thing. But we still have this legacy of the Macintoshes are on this network. 00:40:35.207 --> 00:40:39.499 The Windows boxes are on this network. And we had this division that was still 00:40:39.499 --> 00:40:42.189 persistent. the mainframes and whatever the older hardware was, 00:40:42.189 --> 00:40:43.218 was on a separate network. 00:40:44.873 --> 00:40:48.157 And see, I'm old enough to remember too, like we were still transitioning away from Token Ring. 00:40:48.273 --> 00:40:53.579 And to have something like Linux that came in and could be Samba and Netatalk 00:40:53.579 --> 00:40:59.581 at the same time, it was like having a superpower. Like it made my career for a little while. 00:40:59.993 --> 00:41:01.990 Like it was such a big deal. 00:41:02.681 --> 00:41:07.319 So like that part of me is really sad to see it go because it means it's one 00:41:07.319 --> 00:41:10.649 less thing Linux does, but it's just not a thing people need anymore and I get 00:41:10.649 --> 00:41:13.199 it and we have so much new stuff to build and put in there. 00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.749 Maybe they can add it into the kernel in March and then just take it out. 00:41:17.049 --> 00:41:20.239 In May well the good news is there's a lot of people out there won't be running 00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:22.609 7.2 for a long time so they still got it. 00:41:22.809 --> 00:41:23.817 Long live 6.18. 00:41:24.200 --> 00:41:24.717 That's right. 00:41:32.601 --> 00:41:36.705 Look at this. We got a little piece of news this week, a little piece of feedback, actually. 00:41:37.175 --> 00:41:41.837 And we'll see if it's on topic. I'm not sure we'll get into it here. OK, here we go. 00:41:42.661 --> 00:41:47.275 Good Lord, man. Apple Talks sucked back in the day and still sucks. 00:41:47.728 --> 00:41:51.269 In any event, just use an older kernel. 00:41:52.029 --> 00:41:56.040 They are not purging it out of the existing kernels that support it. 00:41:56.690 --> 00:42:01.488 classic Mac is awesome till the lack of protected memory trashes your app or 00:42:01.488 --> 00:42:03.968 triggers a beach ball of death. 00:42:04.765 --> 00:42:08.341 Yeah, that is true. Or back then it was an hour glass of death. 00:42:09.095 --> 00:42:12.698 It is nice having it in an emulator that you can just restart pretty easily. 00:42:12.698 --> 00:42:13.228 Yes. 00:42:13.828 --> 00:42:18.529 Especially as I was getting seg faults and trying to call fake memory addresses in assembly. 00:42:19.342 --> 00:42:23.838 Now in defense, Ian, you sent this email before we did this episode. 00:42:23.838 --> 00:42:25.454 I'd like to know if we changed your mind at all. 00:42:26.122 --> 00:42:29.198 I think if you think of it at the time, you know, the late 80s, 00:42:29.198 --> 00:42:30.480 it was actually quite impressive. 00:42:30.870 --> 00:42:33.758 By the time we were using it, you know, in schools and stuff, 00:42:33.758 --> 00:42:37.018 if you're around my age, it was getting to the point where it was frustrating. 00:42:37.018 --> 00:42:39.408 There was already IP was coming along and all that kind of stuff. 00:42:39.408 --> 00:42:43.788 But, you know, at the time, I think, I don't know, I'd like to know if we changed your mind at least. 00:42:43.788 --> 00:42:46.268 And I mean, we do have the modern legacy, which we didn't mention. 00:42:46.268 --> 00:42:52.118 But, you know, we got things like MDNS and Bonjour out of basically these ideas 00:42:52.118 --> 00:42:54.680 or at least the best surviving remnants of it. 00:42:55.057 --> 00:42:57.468 I'm glad you mentioned that. I meant to bring that up, right? 00:42:57.468 --> 00:43:00.418 Like those were trying to reimplement things that just came native to Apple Talk. 00:43:00.418 --> 00:43:01.948 The whole zero-conf idea, really. 00:43:02.888 --> 00:43:05.888 And for better or worse, right? Like sometimes when you do a packet capture, 00:43:05.888 --> 00:43:08.378 it's gross to see all those broadcasts on the network. You're like, 00:43:08.378 --> 00:43:09.508 oh, come on, Apple. Don't look at those. 00:43:10.208 --> 00:43:13.638 Come on, just look it up. But yeah, it makes it easy for the end user, 00:43:13.638 --> 00:43:17.354 and it works pretty well for a homeland. So that's why I like it. All right. 00:43:22.340 --> 00:43:26.045 Let's do some boost, boys, and we're going to start with a baller booster, 00:43:26.385 --> 00:43:27.733 and it is a baller indeed. 00:43:28.226 --> 00:43:30.785 Lutris Oppie? You think I got that right? 00:43:30.785 --> 00:43:32.771 No, but that's- Lucitropy. 00:43:33.369 --> 00:43:37.445 Oh, that's way better. That's way better than what I came up with. 00:43:37.445 --> 00:43:39.545 All right. So, Lucup, Lucup. 00:43:39.965 --> 00:43:40.565 I don't know if you got it once. 00:43:41.125 --> 00:43:41.125 Yeah. 00:43:43.325 --> 00:43:49.367 Lucy comes in with a baller boost of 345,678,000. 00:43:50.754 --> 00:43:50.845 Satoshis. What? 00:43:53.169 --> 00:44:00.019 Yep. Yep. That's right. Ah! Oh! Ha ha! 00:44:02.515 --> 00:44:06.055 Long-time listener, first-time booster came across Bramble on Hacker News, 00:44:06.055 --> 00:44:08.085 local password manager with cross-device sync. 00:44:08.665 --> 00:44:12.365 It is Rust with a cryptographic core. You can find it on GitHub. 00:44:12.365 --> 00:44:14.154 We'll put a link in the show notes. 00:44:14.514 --> 00:44:17.202 I'd like to see what you think. Bramble, huh, boys? 00:44:17.660 --> 00:44:20.209 Sounds like we have a contender for the list here. 00:44:22.740 --> 00:44:26.385 Gpl3 it says bramble a password manager that keeps your secrets on your own 00:44:26.385 --> 00:44:30.865 devices i like that no account no server holding your vault no company to get 00:44:30.865 --> 00:44:37.101 breached and leak everything for you you hold the vault you hold the password and that is all. 00:44:37.484 --> 00:44:40.875 What's kind of impressive here is they already seem to have browser extensions 00:44:40.875 --> 00:44:44.535 i guess the firefox one's pending approval but in progress you can get it uh 00:44:44.535 --> 00:44:48.955 an ios app and an android app which is kind of some of the harder holes to fill 00:44:48.955 --> 00:44:51.078 when you make yourself a new password platform. 00:44:52.222 --> 00:44:53.313 Screenshots look good, too. 00:44:53.598 --> 00:44:54.055 Yeah. 00:44:54.055 --> 00:44:54.765 Oh, it looks good. 00:44:54.765 --> 00:44:59.002 Gotta say, yeah. KeyPass looks a little old compared to this. This looks good. 00:44:59.896 --> 00:45:04.065 Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, the flip side is Bitward and keeps moving where the 00:45:04.065 --> 00:45:07.750 fill button is on me just as I finally learn it. So, you know. 00:45:07.930 --> 00:45:09.025 That's a security bug. 00:45:09.125 --> 00:45:10.405 Would it work better on Hyperland? 00:45:11.552 --> 00:45:13.062 I can confirm it does not. 00:45:14.693 --> 00:45:21.241 Oh, well, our buddy, our pal producer, Jeff Boosin, with a big old row of McDuck's. 00:45:23.557 --> 00:45:29.571 I think the Steam machine is not, quote-unquote, overpriced. It's too expensive. 00:45:29.890 --> 00:45:33.026 The closest pre-built computers that come close to its performance and size 00:45:33.026 --> 00:45:35.527 would need the AMD AI Max APU. 00:45:35.899 --> 00:45:39.961 Those start around $1,500, and they fall short in GPU spec. 00:45:40.390 --> 00:45:45.400 Give them some time, and their custom hardware will shine. Or do it yourself. 00:45:46.625 --> 00:45:47.856 I think PJ is saying let them cook. 00:45:48.076 --> 00:45:49.249 Yeah, I think he is. 00:45:49.876 --> 00:45:55.546 Let them cook. Yeah. All right. I say good on you, PJ. Thank you for boosting 00:45:55.546 --> 00:45:57.246 in. And I think you're right. 00:45:58.212 --> 00:46:04.176 It's not that it's overpriced. And unfortunately, we may discover that it just 00:46:04.176 --> 00:46:07.912 becomes the new norm. And we'll just adjust to it like we do gas prices, I suppose. 00:46:08.359 --> 00:46:12.376 There's a boost here. A row of ducks from Brent's Tabs. 00:46:20.666 --> 00:46:21.595 Oh, it gets me every time. 00:46:21.746 --> 00:46:25.311 This came from our Web Boost page. Thank you very much. It says, 00:46:25.311 --> 00:46:32.011 would Brent consider exporting his tab count as a Prometheus metric the audience could graph into? 00:46:32.011 --> 00:46:35.084 That's a fun idea. That's a fun idea. 00:46:35.264 --> 00:46:39.241 I would highly consider this. I might be ashamed at some point, 00:46:39.241 --> 00:46:42.376 but that would be fun to graph. It's like a shame graph, basically. 00:46:43.551 --> 00:46:48.371 Don't worry because if we get that going for you I may just reveal how many 00:46:48.371 --> 00:46:52.571 files and the age of the files in my downloads folder I think people may be shocked, 00:46:55.111 --> 00:47:02.020 we'll see AR buddy adversary 17 is here with 8143 satoshers, 00:47:05.107 --> 00:47:08.573 adversaries writes Chris send me a link to your stream deck holder you want 00:47:08.857 --> 00:47:13.286 I'll print it for you oh really Oh my gosh, that'd be great. 00:47:13.588 --> 00:47:16.551 He says, yeah, regarding 3D printing, nice printers can cost a bit, 00:47:16.551 --> 00:47:21.531 but they produce quality parts. The parts in my printer are ironically printed by my printer. 00:47:22.041 --> 00:47:25.281 Persia uses their own printers to print the parts they make their printers out 00:47:25.281 --> 00:47:29.501 of. The Core 1 printer parts are printed on Core 1s. Yeah, Alex tells me about that. 00:47:29.501 --> 00:47:32.351 But how do you get the first printer, then? How do you get the first? 00:47:32.591 --> 00:47:34.771 Well, you get a little kit, right? But then the cool thing is you can literally 00:47:34.771 --> 00:47:36.581 print some of the upgrades down the road and stuff. 00:47:36.581 --> 00:47:37.271 So great. 00:47:37.585 --> 00:47:39.483 It was handed to us from the old Wandsprint. 00:47:40.783 --> 00:47:43.837 Adversaries, right, so I also just want to say I love the web boost option. 00:47:44.174 --> 00:47:47.901 I've been repeatedly punting the Albie extension to set up on my self-hosted 00:47:47.901 --> 00:47:50.501 LND node every time I try to figure it out. I run into a problem, 00:47:50.501 --> 00:47:52.039 and I say, I'll get back to it later. 00:47:52.457 --> 00:47:54.698 So I just haven't been able to boost outside of using Fountain. 00:47:54.843 --> 00:47:55.911 Well, I'm glad you like it. 00:47:55.911 --> 00:47:57.351 We built it for you. 00:47:57.862 --> 00:47:58.361 We love it. 00:47:59.934 --> 00:48:04.027 Gene Bean, a boost in with 8,888 sats. 00:48:07.758 --> 00:48:15.508 Chris, have you seen the Y-Can Pro for OBD2 to Home Assistant? Looks to be about $89. 00:48:16.361 --> 00:48:20.184 You know, we've been kind of talking about this off-air a little bit. 00:48:20.184 --> 00:48:23.644 And it's, yeah, a little meat pie, and it sits there and just runs all the time. 00:48:23.644 --> 00:48:24.819 I think that is in my future. 00:48:25.944 --> 00:48:32.454 Maybe in all of our futures. And then we also got from our buddy Gene a little Gentoo defense here. 00:48:32.454 --> 00:48:38.654 You know, Gene writes, you can make that stripped down kernel for your no GUI 00:48:38.654 --> 00:48:41.728 system pretty easily in Gen 2. Just saying. 00:48:44.084 --> 00:48:47.730 Gene's not wrong. Gene's rarely wrong, I would say. 00:48:48.340 --> 00:48:50.744 Yeah, I'd say he's got a pretty good batting average. 00:48:50.744 --> 00:48:53.152 Is this his way to get me to try Gen 2 finally? 00:48:53.286 --> 00:48:55.784 I mean, you might love it. That's the funny thing. I had to. 00:48:55.784 --> 00:48:56.583 I think you need to. 00:48:57.111 --> 00:48:58.736 I think you might actually love it. 00:48:59.090 --> 00:48:59.625 Really? 00:49:00.106 --> 00:49:01.285 I do. I do. 00:49:02.404 --> 00:49:04.374 I think you're on Gene's team on this one. 00:49:04.374 --> 00:49:06.405 You know, it's probably a great Hyperland experience. 00:49:06.875 --> 00:49:10.814 Let me ask you something, Brent. If you could, would you love to live in like 00:49:10.814 --> 00:49:14.534 your own bespoke hand-built cabin or log cabin or something like that that you 00:49:14.534 --> 00:49:16.834 had all the time and resources in the world to build? 00:49:16.834 --> 00:49:17.754 Oh, yeah. 00:49:17.754 --> 00:49:18.589 Oh, definitely. 00:49:18.845 --> 00:49:20.684 Right? Isn't that kind of what Gentoo is? You build it just the way you live. 00:49:20.684 --> 00:49:21.954 Oh, I see what you're saying. 00:49:21.954 --> 00:49:25.304 A realistic time frame. You know, I'm just saying. Just putting that in there. 00:49:25.304 --> 00:49:28.074 What kind of time frame are we talking about? Because I might consider this. 00:49:28.074 --> 00:49:28.424 You know how. 00:49:28.424 --> 00:49:28.684 You like. 00:49:29.084 --> 00:49:31.417 Distracting projects from your other projects. 00:49:31.632 --> 00:49:35.289 Yeah you know how you love time holes that just totally distract you i call it. 00:49:35.556 --> 00:49:40.794 Productive productivity thank you productive procrastination thank you very much. 00:49:40.794 --> 00:49:43.084 With with that kind of spin you could be a politician. 00:49:44.119 --> 00:49:48.147 Well faraday fedora is not a politician but they did send in a row of ducks, 00:49:50.023 --> 00:49:54.661 Oh, hell no. MeshTastic is not dead in the Pacific Northwest. 00:49:55.045 --> 00:50:02.637 Most of us just moved off long fast. Vancouver Island had a closer to 300 node mesh with medium slow. 00:50:03.613 --> 00:50:09.093 But both mesh core and meshtastic are not a good use case for a sensor on your property. 00:50:09.377 --> 00:50:14.253 Laura is still a good option, but you do need the whole mesh. 00:50:14.758 --> 00:50:18.687 I would love you to expand on that, Faraday. Because I think I jive what you're 00:50:18.687 --> 00:50:23.757 saying. It's like those are more for messaging, but the idea of low, 00:50:23.757 --> 00:50:25.287 like 900 megahertz or whatever it is. 00:50:25.307 --> 00:50:27.296 Yeah, you could have a LoRa mesh of your own. 00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:28.127 Yeah. 00:50:28.127 --> 00:50:30.787 You just need enough to make sure you maintain the coverage, I guess. 00:50:30.787 --> 00:50:33.517 It could use AppleTalk. How do you get it to work with Home Assistant? 00:50:33.517 --> 00:50:36.323 You probably could. You probably could. Wouldn't that be awesome? 00:50:36.590 --> 00:50:38.747 Well, that's next week's project. There you go. 00:50:40.450 --> 00:50:44.978 You know, NQTT might work great over ATP, you know. I'm just saying. 00:50:45.570 --> 00:50:46.005 Good. 00:50:46.690 --> 00:50:50.974 Dude, they're all very, very, very, very old. So they just might all work great together. 00:50:52.118 --> 00:50:55.525 Chris P. boosts in with $12,345. 00:51:01.852 --> 00:51:08.644 First time Web Booster, long time listener. Discover JB with the RMS last 200th episode in 2012. 00:51:08.859 --> 00:51:09.359 Wow. 00:51:09.359 --> 00:51:10.039 Oh my goodness. 00:51:11.506 --> 00:51:12.016 Classic. 00:51:12.556 --> 00:51:17.779 Yeah. Yeah. That was a long time ago. That episode, I think, 00:51:17.779 --> 00:51:21.850 is not only like one of the standard episodes, but for me, I believe, 00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:27.020 I think, I found out about it either the night before or the morning of it. It was pretty close. 00:51:27.189 --> 00:51:31.002 It was like we just managed to, Brian just managed to barely schedule RMS. 00:51:32.019 --> 00:51:34.709 And then I think, too, we had to kind of come up with a way to do the phone. 00:51:34.709 --> 00:51:35.719 We might have used Skype or something. 00:51:35.779 --> 00:51:36.539 Oh, sure. Yeah, of course. 00:51:37.059 --> 00:51:38.399 He wouldn't use any proprietary technology. 00:51:38.539 --> 00:51:40.019 He has limits on what he would use. Yeah. 00:51:40.019 --> 00:51:41.277 But he was fine with the phone system? 00:51:41.875 --> 00:51:42.479 Hmm. 00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:44.479 I do like this summary. 00:51:46.949 --> 00:51:52.196 Chris B. saying to himself, well, they have opinions and they know they're Linux. 00:51:52.405 --> 00:51:54.727 I'll give them a chance. And still listening. 00:51:55.419 --> 00:51:55.912 Hey, I love it. 00:51:56.168 --> 00:51:59.339 Thank you. By the way, no time to try NixOS, but being French, 00:51:59.339 --> 00:52:03.046 I should find some, as it could be our future with the Sovereign OS stuff. 00:52:03.394 --> 00:52:06.039 Not sure it'll make it to production, but unlike the Munich failed migration 00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:10.439 in France, we have the Gendarmerie Nationale. 00:52:10.739 --> 00:52:14.557 There we go. And the success, successfully migrated to their version of Ubuntu. 00:52:15.097 --> 00:52:18.199 So that is a pretty good, that's pretty good grounds for success. I like that. 00:52:18.199 --> 00:52:21.439 And they've all, he's also mentioned, they've already done the Open Office and 00:52:21.439 --> 00:52:25.849 Thunderbird and stuff like that. So that seems like positive vibes. 00:52:25.849 --> 00:52:29.259 Yeah, if you hear more, if it does, be our correspondent if you would. 00:52:29.259 --> 00:52:32.430 Please do boost back in. Thank you for boosting and for the longtime support. 00:52:32.987 --> 00:52:37.159 And well done perfectly sequencing your individual boost to get to a Spaceballs 00:52:37.159 --> 00:52:39.099 boost. Very impressive. 00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:44.399 All right. I'll take whomever whiz. Also coming in with 2,222 stats. 00:52:44.399 --> 00:52:45.502 That's a row of duckaroos. 00:52:46.582 --> 00:52:49.979 I'm building new skills for my agent, but I could use more examples for inspiration. 00:52:49.979 --> 00:52:53.989 Would you consider sharing some MD files or wrapper scripts? 00:52:54.291 --> 00:52:57.299 I'd love to see community repo or wiki for this kind of thing. 00:52:59.379 --> 00:53:02.799 I also love to see the writing to manage multiple agents on the same. 00:53:02.799 --> 00:53:03.875 A wiring, I think. 00:53:04.450 --> 00:53:05.054 Oh, okay. Thank you. 00:53:07.087 --> 00:53:08.987 Okay, I think we need more streams, boys. 00:53:08.987 --> 00:53:10.207 I think we might have a stream. 00:53:10.527 --> 00:53:13.067 We need a quicker stream. That's very true. 00:53:13.407 --> 00:53:17.187 Maybe one of the outputs of the stream could be some stuff published on a repo 00:53:17.187 --> 00:53:19.758 or something. Think about it. Thank you, whomever. 00:53:19.961 --> 00:53:27.164 I think I can give an example of a skill that I made this week as just a little example. 00:53:27.343 --> 00:53:32.327 There was a function I was repeating because I guess my NextCloud notes sync 00:53:32.327 --> 00:53:37.450 kept failing for I don't know what reason. And so I kept getting like versions of files and stuff. 00:53:37.990 --> 00:53:43.632 And so all I did was I kept like three times in one day. I wanted to compare 00:53:44.027 --> 00:53:46.512 different versions of the identical file. 00:53:46.773 --> 00:53:50.937 So I used, I don't know, the NextCloud API or something to like go fetch those 00:53:50.937 --> 00:53:54.464 versions, just compare them and then merge all the stuff that didn't sing properly. 00:53:54.975 --> 00:53:58.327 And I was like, well, I'm going to be doing this a couple of times or like maybe 00:53:58.327 --> 00:53:59.167 in the future it'll fail again. 00:53:59.167 --> 00:54:01.557 And just make a skill out of it because we just, I don't know, 00:54:01.557 --> 00:54:05.627 I spent 20 minutes figuring out exactly how to do it. Just remember that and 00:54:05.627 --> 00:54:10.637 then I'll just call it whenever I need it. So little things like that is a good way to write skills. 00:54:10.637 --> 00:54:12.527 So skills to unbreak your Nextcloud server. 00:54:13.147 --> 00:54:14.287 Yeah, that's a good place to start. 00:54:14.647 --> 00:54:17.607 I don't think I've told my Nextcloud story where it almost ate some of my most 00:54:17.607 --> 00:54:18.607 precious data in the world. 00:54:19.548 --> 00:54:20.007 Delicious. 00:54:20.007 --> 00:54:23.107 Total bug in Nextcloud. If people are interested, boost it. Otherwise, 00:54:23.647 --> 00:54:25.398 I hate to talk bad about the project because I love it so much. 00:54:26.095 --> 00:54:32.294 but man oh man it basically disqualified itself from me ever using it in production oh no, 00:54:32.863 --> 00:54:37.377 it was it was worst case absolutely worst case so it's there's that but i'm 00:54:37.377 --> 00:54:40.977 yeah all right well we'll come we'll follow back with you whomever maybe with 00:54:40.977 --> 00:54:43.827 a clanker stream well all right who takes mg. 00:54:44.187 --> 00:54:47.767 There's another clanker boost here from mg 5 000 sats, 00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:54.005 Hey, what models are you using for the various Hermes functions and for coding? 00:54:54.289 --> 00:54:57.708 I think Chris talked about Minimax for the primary model, but what about Wes? 00:54:58.088 --> 00:55:01.290 And what about Vision or Summary or Titles? 00:55:02.387 --> 00:55:03.113 Yeah, Wes. 00:55:04.378 --> 00:55:04.948 Yeah, Titles. 00:55:04.948 --> 00:55:11.708 Yeah. Yeah. What do you use? Because I use Minimax M3 primarily with a little 00:55:11.708 --> 00:55:14.988 small codec subscription on the side to sort of supplement things here and there 00:55:14.988 --> 00:55:16.319 that need to build out for them. 00:55:16.673 --> 00:55:20.548 So that's, mine's very basic, very boring, but Wes, you're always experimenting. 00:55:20.548 --> 00:55:22.946 I know sometimes you're even renting GPUs directly and. 00:55:23.179 --> 00:55:27.338 Yeah, I kind of tend to bounce around because I'll, I'll use stuff that is new 00:55:27.338 --> 00:55:31.708 on OpenRounder just to try it out or, you know, use stuff that's free or 00:55:32.148 --> 00:55:35.648 limited time offer, not necessarily for like production or like consistent backend 00:55:35.648 --> 00:55:38.196 stuff, but definitely for, you know, 00:55:38.782 --> 00:55:42.838 trying out for coding or random agentics tasks that I'm right there so I can 00:55:42.838 --> 00:55:45.808 kind of evaluate them. So I do tend to use a fair amount of DeepSeq. 00:55:46.468 --> 00:55:51.678 That's been a good one. Mimo's pretty good. I was trying one called Orenth recently, 00:55:51.678 --> 00:55:54.248 which is one that I had to self-host, which is kind of neat. 00:55:55.959 --> 00:56:03.094 So it kind of depends on whatever is that. Quinn also, both API and self-host, has been very good too. 00:56:03.239 --> 00:56:09.938 Kind of depends on, are you aiming for more tool calling stuff or are you doing 00:56:09.938 --> 00:56:14.042 more like active dev work? you might pick, you know, different flavors. 00:56:14.560 --> 00:56:15.918 Or image generation is a different thing too. 00:56:15.918 --> 00:56:20.931 Totally, yeah. Or, yeah, do you want, like, I like Memo because it does have multimodal support. 00:56:21.268 --> 00:56:25.728 There's some interesting ones from Gemma these days with that too. 00:56:25.728 --> 00:56:29.698 So if you do want stuff that's optimized for, like, operating a browser or, 00:56:29.698 --> 00:56:32.738 you know, being able to quickly paste an image and have it do something with 00:56:32.738 --> 00:56:34.387 that, it kind of changes the mix too. 00:56:34.979 --> 00:56:37.598 MG, if you're not already, get in one of our clanker chat rooms, 00:56:37.598 --> 00:56:40.546 Matrix or Telegram. It's a great question for that room in there, I think. 00:56:40.744 --> 00:56:44.718 I'll take this next one. Donnie comes in with another baller boost for the show, 00:56:44.718 --> 00:56:47.367 gentlemen, $200 in Fiat Bun coupons. 00:56:51.583 --> 00:56:53.829 That's like fashionable fiat. 00:56:56.052 --> 00:57:00.427 That is fantastic. Hi, all. I wanted to boost episode 644, the People's File 00:57:00.427 --> 00:57:03.645 System, for a while, but I never got around to setting up a wallet. 00:57:04.510 --> 00:57:09.218 I found myself maintaining a project that he calls HD Idol almost by accident. 00:57:09.468 --> 00:57:12.987 That interview inspired me to test code that manipulates hardware. Thank you. 00:57:12.987 --> 00:57:13.507 Nice. 00:57:13.507 --> 00:57:17.257 Well, Donnie, thank you for that great boost. That's really awesome. 00:57:17.257 --> 00:57:21.167 So HD Idol, huh? I feel like I already can kind of tell what it does. 00:57:21.787 --> 00:57:23.177 Gpl3 yeah. 00:57:23.177 --> 00:57:25.247 Hard disk idle spin down utility boys. 00:57:25.247 --> 00:57:28.957 It's a re-implementation of christian moeller's hd idle yeah utility for spinning 00:57:28.957 --> 00:57:32.217 down external disks after a period of idle time since most external ide disk 00:57:32.217 --> 00:57:36.727 closures don't support setting the ide idle timer a program like this could 00:57:36.727 --> 00:57:38.805 be required to spin down disks automatically. 00:57:39.269 --> 00:57:42.427 Freaking great if you've got like external usb spinning rust and stuff. 00:57:43.524 --> 00:57:46.137 Wow that's great i could have used this maybe. 00:57:46.137 --> 00:57:47.356 Like 10 years ago. 00:57:48.273 --> 00:57:48.807 I bet. 00:57:48.807 --> 00:57:49.620 I could use it today. 00:57:49.933 --> 00:57:54.897 I love the idea that a nerdy interview about bcashfs with kent and some of his 00:57:54.897 --> 00:57:59.477 yeah brain smarts on file system then inspired someone who then started maintaining 00:57:59.477 --> 00:58:01.967 something that is useful to everyone and, 00:58:02.427 --> 00:58:06.127 and also just as my own personal love of testing strategies and stuff which, 00:58:06.767 --> 00:58:09.067 hardware testing is especially hard so great, 00:58:09.967 --> 00:58:12.236 thank you for thank you for this thank you for sharing all this good stuff. 00:58:12.752 --> 00:58:15.597 Yeah i appreciate you sending some of that value back donnie and we'll put a 00:58:15.597 --> 00:58:17.476 link to it in the show notes so other folks can check it out. 00:58:18.231 --> 00:58:20.959 Leaky canoe comes in with $10 of fiat. 00:58:23.751 --> 00:58:26.572 Even though I'm a member, here's some V4V. 00:58:26.862 --> 00:58:28.354 Aw, thank you. 00:58:29.097 --> 00:58:33.799 After listening to the Forescan Adventures, I bought an OBD2 USB adapter. 00:58:33.909 --> 00:58:34.430 Nice. 00:58:34.430 --> 00:58:38.466 Wow, what an excellent new tool for my toolbox when paired with some local AI. 00:58:38.693 --> 00:58:39.100 Yes. 00:58:39.100 --> 00:58:43.380 Isn't it amazing? It's a new age of home repairs, buddy. It's a new age. 00:58:43.880 --> 00:58:44.962 That's great. Thank you, Leaky. 00:58:45.084 --> 00:58:48.683 And also, the adventure's not over. More to come on that, I'm sure. 00:58:49.130 --> 00:58:49.716 Mm-hmm. 00:58:49.867 --> 00:58:54.267 We do have some free members boosts here. First one from Anonymous. 00:58:54.482 --> 00:58:55.156 Oh, yeah. 00:58:59.556 --> 00:59:04.562 A massive appreciation to Brent for his mention of Ngram in the member's bootleg 00:59:04.562 --> 00:59:08.142 last week. I've spent the better part of two days trying to implement other 00:59:08.142 --> 00:59:12.406 memory tools for my coding agents across providers in OpenCode and Codex. 00:59:13.248 --> 00:59:19.599 Ngram is in Nix and syncs secrets across hosts in my Nebula Mesh. Massive love. 00:59:20.963 --> 00:59:22.293 That's so great. 00:59:22.722 --> 00:59:23.922 That's great to hear. 00:59:24.222 --> 00:59:26.832 It sounds like Ngram is a hit. Yeah, we were looking at it afterwards. 00:59:26.832 --> 00:59:27.830 It looks pretty good, too. 00:59:28.312 --> 00:59:33.482 He also mentions Distributed Llama, which I think we've been poking at a little 00:59:33.482 --> 00:59:35.142 bit behind the scenes. That's pretty cool. 00:59:35.962 --> 00:59:38.612 We should probably link to that. And he says, did you guys completely ignore 00:59:38.612 --> 00:59:42.562 44? I've been using it for a few months after it came out, and since swapping 00:59:42.562 --> 00:59:45.786 away from Nix and setting up Determinant Nix, I've had a great time. 00:59:46.144 --> 00:59:48.787 The KD Plasma Edition is really nice, and it worked great for development. 00:59:49.268 --> 00:59:51.347 Yes, but there's a reason. 00:59:53.642 --> 00:59:57.072 We were at Linux Fest, and then by the time we were done with everything we 00:59:57.072 --> 01:00:00.142 had lined up on the schedule it just didn't seem like it made sense anymore 01:00:00.142 --> 01:00:04.274 but it hurt it hurt it hurt and then i wasn't sure like, 01:00:05.322 --> 01:00:08.142 you know can we pick it up two months later, 01:00:08.744 --> 01:00:11.982 you know so i think i feel like we just got to do a really good job with 45 01:00:11.982 --> 01:00:16.776 it was that it was no mention or commentary or anything it was just the scheduling worked out where, 01:00:17.310 --> 01:00:22.462 we had a window for fedora content wise the release didn't make that window 01:00:22.462 --> 01:00:25.512 and then we were up against like hard stuff we had fest. 01:00:25.512 --> 01:00:28.712 And then we had i I think we had an interview for the Ubuntu side with John, 01:00:28.712 --> 01:00:31.212 if I recall. Yeah, there was just too much going on. 01:00:31.212 --> 01:00:34.242 We had to get back and get to that interview. And then, yeah, 01:00:34.242 --> 01:00:39.282 there was some Summit stuff in there as well. It was crazy. So that was really a miss. 01:00:39.944 --> 01:00:43.253 I do really like, though, Anonymous here points out. 01:00:45.093 --> 01:00:51.442 They link to museumofmodernart.org, which every once in a while, 01:00:51.442 --> 01:00:57.713 a computer can be a museum or at least a museum piece. And do you know what it happens to be? 01:01:00.110 --> 01:01:00.476 A Mac? 01:01:00.476 --> 01:01:02.056 A Macintosh classic desktop. 01:01:02.056 --> 01:01:03.083 That's cool. 01:01:05.770 --> 01:01:11.156 It is beautiful, you know, I have to say, in an old kind of yellowing way. 01:01:11.667 --> 01:01:14.796 Gift of the Peter Norton Family Foundation. I just love that idea. 01:01:15.521 --> 01:01:18.416 Thank you very much. Appreciate that, Anonymous. Marcel sent in a free member 01:01:18.416 --> 01:01:20.380 boost for 3D printing. I got two Vorons. 01:01:20.984 --> 01:01:24.806 It's not a company. It's a self-assembled, and it's from an open source community 01:01:24.806 --> 01:01:26.475 that designs in the open. 01:01:26.905 --> 01:01:30.466 They can 100% their stuff for the car. Just don't use PLA plastic. 01:01:30.466 --> 01:01:34.103 I made a custom phone mount. I printed an ASA. Still fine a year later. 01:01:34.399 --> 01:01:34.676 Ooh. 01:01:35.682 --> 01:01:40.314 Yeah, that's great. Okay, Marcel. I like that. And I can use it in the RV too. 01:01:40.552 --> 01:01:43.446 Eric, the magician comes in with a free member boost. Following up on Nebula 01:01:43.446 --> 01:01:46.549 and DNS, it was the wife who didn't want it on all the time. 01:01:46.752 --> 01:01:49.596 I tried Nebula in December, and I tried it again this week. I was asking, 01:01:49.596 --> 01:01:51.776 like, why are you turning off your wife network? 01:01:52.116 --> 01:01:54.096 But it is actually working better now. I got... 01:01:57.156 --> 01:02:02.043 Blaming the wife. I got caught with Nebula V2 Scheme, and the mobile didn't support it at the time. 01:02:02.327 --> 01:02:07.364 But the mobile client supports DNS now. Yes, the mobile client's got a nice refresh in early 2026. 01:02:08.253 --> 01:02:10.986 It's very true. Good. I really appreciate the follow-up, Eric. 01:02:10.986 --> 01:02:14.145 Thank you very much. We tease, but we do appreciate it. 01:02:15.114 --> 01:02:20.036 King Arthur member, Boo Sin, I think you were asking about other podcasts who do live things. 01:02:20.036 --> 01:02:25.246 And so Vance Crow does live podcasts occasionally, as does the board game company 01:02:25.246 --> 01:02:30.805 Stonemaier, who makes wingspan oh wingspan's a fun game and other games yeah cool, 01:02:31.595 --> 01:02:35.156 thank you king arthur great to see other live folks doing stuff especially in 01:02:35.156 --> 01:02:36.633 the podcast space specifically. 01:02:37.028 --> 01:02:43.096 Peg dot came in with a members boost says uh here are my download sat stats 01:02:43.096 --> 01:02:48.936 for my downloads folder the the home folder itself started as arch linux around 01:02:48.936 --> 01:02:51.987 spring 2019 and got migrated to kashi a few months ago, 01:02:52.678 --> 01:02:57.688 download folder the number of items 2,871, 01:02:58.803 --> 01:03:05.513 And here's a du-h command to figure out the size. 102 gigs. 01:03:05.513 --> 01:03:06.153 Oh! 01:03:06.673 --> 01:03:07.173 Oh! 01:03:07.713 --> 01:03:10.202 Those, that's the 2,000 files are pulling their weight. 01:03:10.992 --> 01:03:16.493 I wonder how much of that old stuff you need. You know? Like how much of that from, you know? 01:03:17.226 --> 01:03:21.168 If you're archival in your disposition, then all of it. 01:03:22.404 --> 01:03:25.663 Should I reveal my details or should we wait one more week? I kind of, 01:03:25.663 --> 01:03:27.293 I feel like I've been teasing it out too much. 01:03:27.293 --> 01:03:27.791 You have been. 01:03:28.407 --> 01:03:34.258 So I'm going to tell you. I'm looking at it right now. So the size is not that impressive. 01:03:34.972 --> 01:03:38.033 54 gigs. I think that's pretty reasonable for a downloads folder. 01:03:38.033 --> 01:03:39.355 It's pretty reasonable. 01:03:40.144 --> 01:03:41.027 No, it's not. 01:03:41.677 --> 01:03:42.919 What? Really? 54 gigs? 01:03:43.070 --> 01:03:45.386 Mine was like 10 megs or something. 01:03:45.944 --> 01:03:46.501 Really? 01:03:47.238 --> 01:03:47.761 Uh-huh. 01:03:49.032 --> 01:03:51.293 That's so weird with your tab hygiene and all of that. 01:03:51.993 --> 01:03:52.153 Yeah. 01:03:52.153 --> 01:03:52.793 You don't have any ISO files. 01:03:53.293 --> 01:03:54.173 I'm perfect, just not in all ways. 01:03:54.173 --> 01:03:57.703 You don't have a VM disk image. Mr. 01:03:57.703 --> 01:04:03.173 Videos Unless I run out of storage I mostly don't manage my downloads folder 01:04:03.173 --> 01:04:07.743 until the machine dies and this machine just won't die It's 62.9. 01:04:07.743 --> 01:04:10.413 Megs and it's got 49 files in it. 01:04:10.413 --> 01:04:12.139 Not even 100 megs? 01:04:15.136 --> 01:04:18.030 I feel like the amount of files is one thing, and I do have a lot of those, 01:04:18.030 --> 01:04:18.780 but I don't need a break about that. 01:04:18.780 --> 01:04:23.380 You're saying you're storing more data in your tabs? That's why I need all the 01:04:23.380 --> 01:04:25.010 RAM. In your tabs than you have in your downloads? 01:04:25.010 --> 01:04:26.867 Oh, definitely. 01:04:27.843 --> 01:04:28.387 Rent. 01:04:31.163 --> 01:04:39.820 Here's what I'm proud of, boys. My oldest file is from, in my downloads folder, November 6th, 1996. 01:04:43.238 --> 01:04:44.961 Yeah, that wasn't true last week. 01:04:45.362 --> 01:04:50.490 My next December 24th, 1996, and then I have a couple files from 2000, 01:04:50.490 --> 01:04:56.440 2004, and then mostly it gets pretty busy around 2016, and then it's just a 01:04:56.440 --> 01:04:59.886 lot of files from there. But it's only 54 gigs. 01:05:00.842 --> 01:05:04.740 So I got files going back to 1996 in the old download drive. 01:05:04.740 --> 01:05:08.446 I wonder if we have similar files because I have two 1996 files as well. 01:05:09.180 --> 01:05:10.420 I know what files they might be. 01:05:10.420 --> 01:05:11.940 You guys have been around for a bit. 01:05:13.921 --> 01:05:15.737 Hey, you can call us seasoned, okay? 01:05:15.912 --> 01:05:18.762 They're text files, right? They're just, you can use them on anything. 01:05:19.575 --> 01:05:22.560 Right. Let's wrap it up. Thank you, everybody who supported the show. 01:05:22.560 --> 01:05:23.998 Thank you, too, to the SAT streamers. 01:05:24.410 --> 01:05:26.820 18 of you streamed SATs as you just listened to the episode, 01:05:26.820 --> 01:05:33.170 and collectively, you stacked a real handsome 63,014 SATs. That ain't too bad at all. 01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:37.030 I think that's pretty darn good. So thank you for streaming those SATs. 01:05:37.030 --> 01:05:40.750 When you bring it together with our Fiat Fund coupons converted to sats at the 01:05:40.750 --> 01:05:43.630 current market value, we had a really great episode this week. 01:05:43.630 --> 01:05:47.508 And it means so much. The show, I can't believe we're still going. 01:05:47.961 --> 01:05:52.530 I mean, we're going into July. And we don't have, the only primary sponsor we have is Nebula. 01:05:53.011 --> 01:05:55.500 The other sponsors are temporary. You know, it's just different. 01:05:55.500 --> 01:05:58.580 It's different. I don't need to go into details. But we just wouldn't be here 01:05:58.580 --> 01:06:01.250 without the support. I cannot tell you how much it matters. Thank you, 01:06:01.250 --> 01:06:02.420 everybody who supported the show. 01:06:02.832 --> 01:06:10.740 We stacked a grand total of 809,307 Satoshis. Absolutely incredible. 01:06:10.740 --> 01:06:11.420 Amazing. 01:06:23.708 --> 01:06:28.207 It's across 30 people. Tens of thousands of people will listen to this episode. 01:06:28.207 --> 01:06:32.377 30 people and our members are making it possible. LinuxUnplugged.com membership 01:06:32.377 --> 01:06:36.617 to put your support on Autopilot or boost the show at boost.jupyterbroadcasting.com 01:06:36.617 --> 01:06:39.167 or use something like the Fountain app. Makes it real easy. 01:06:39.468 --> 01:06:43.857 Cast-O-Matic is great on iOS as well and connects with your Albi Hub. 01:06:43.857 --> 01:06:47.526 Thank you everybody who supported the show this week and kept us going. 01:06:47.960 --> 01:06:52.628 We really appreciate it. And for you and everybody else as a little treat, we got some picks. 01:06:55.217 --> 01:06:58.937 If you will allow, we are going to start with a couple of retro Mac picks. 01:06:58.937 --> 01:07:02.280 If you want to go get a VM set up, we got some suggestions for you. 01:07:03.677 --> 01:07:06.907 And we've been having some fun. There's a lot we could have picked. 01:07:06.907 --> 01:07:07.687 I'm going to tell you that. 01:07:07.687 --> 01:07:08.202 A lot. 01:07:08.719 --> 01:07:12.037 We tried to narrow it down for you all. A couple of must-haves. 01:07:12.037 --> 01:07:13.997 Wes, why don't you start with one of your favorites? 01:07:13.997 --> 01:07:18.976 Yeah. I mean, as a kid, this just was blowing my mind. It's Morph. 01:07:19.516 --> 01:07:25.527 um griffin morph no less which was one of the first commercial quote-unquote 01:07:25.527 --> 01:07:30.615 morphing programs available for this era of computers um you essentially, 01:07:31.579 --> 01:07:35.083 You're given a UI where you can kind of put dots on two images, 01:07:35.083 --> 01:07:39.131 and then you move the dots so they sort of match up so they both are on a nose, say. 01:07:39.409 --> 01:07:43.903 And then it generates a transition effect from one image to the other, 01:07:43.903 --> 01:07:47.783 and then you can export that as a movie. Quick time, no less. 01:07:47.903 --> 01:07:49.463 That's pretty good. It's impressive. 01:07:49.763 --> 01:07:53.193 Yeah, so that was one of the demos it came with, where it's morphing like a 01:07:53.193 --> 01:07:55.841 bear into a lion, and vice versa. 01:07:56.388 --> 01:07:57.103 Yeah, yeah. 01:07:57.523 --> 01:08:00.633 That's pretty fun. It did also give me a chance to really deal with resource 01:08:00.633 --> 01:08:05.827 forks, because, boy, howdy, did the early QuickTime videos really use that stuff. 01:08:06.210 --> 01:08:11.563 So, like, it's part of the data, like, the move atom is in one side and then 01:08:11.563 --> 01:08:14.256 the mdata stuff is in the other part of the file. 01:08:14.983 --> 01:08:18.429 And then what you can do is if you get QuickTime for that era, 01:08:18.707 --> 01:08:23.473 you can open up the export from Morph and then you can save it as a consolidated 01:08:23.473 --> 01:08:27.346 file that can open on non-Macs and then that saves it as the correct version 01:08:27.542 --> 01:08:30.928 that none of it's in the resource fuck and then you can just copy it to your AFP share. 01:08:31.559 --> 01:08:32.553 All right. There you go. 01:08:33.249 --> 01:08:36.111 So Morph is there. That's legitimate software from the old days. 01:08:36.349 --> 01:08:39.345 I cheated a little bit here because this was one of my ideas. 01:08:39.635 --> 01:08:44.144 And then I realized someone had already done it way, way better. 01:08:44.680 --> 01:08:50.363 It's called Legacy AI. Legacy AI allows older Apple computers to interact with 01:08:50.363 --> 01:08:53.038 AI services like OpenAI's ChatGPT. 01:08:53.669 --> 01:08:59.463 Legacy AI works across 15 different Mac systems from System 7 to 1011 El Capitan. 01:08:59.939 --> 01:09:03.693 What? Somebody wrote classic Mac apps to talk to LLMs? 01:09:03.703 --> 01:09:04.089 Yep. 01:09:05.905 --> 01:09:06.893 How is this a thing? 01:09:06.893 --> 01:09:11.688 Yep. Now, I didn't get the networking going because I think it needs TCP. 01:09:12.373 --> 01:09:15.367 Yeah, well, I got that going. I could try this. 01:09:15.530 --> 01:09:21.803 Yeah. Get to it. And the Manticore folks, they also have a few old Mac apps, 01:09:21.803 --> 01:09:24.858 including one that's just like a nice-looking weather thing, 01:09:25.433 --> 01:09:27.849 weather bot. But, yeah, so you can run your own proxy. 01:09:28.017 --> 01:09:30.334 Essentially, you run a proxy to do the HTTPS stuff. 01:09:31.113 --> 01:09:35.223 They provide one as well, I think. And then it has image generation with Dolly 01:09:35.223 --> 01:09:37.474 in there. And you get a little LM. 01:09:38.060 --> 01:09:41.473 You know, if somebody could write a modern web browser for Mac OS, 01:09:41.473 --> 01:09:42.819 we could almost do a challenge. 01:09:44.050 --> 01:09:48.373 It'd be stupid, but we could almost do a challenge. That's crazy. Wow. 01:09:48.373 --> 01:09:49.588 Okay. 01:09:50.296 --> 01:09:52.433 I did not expect that. I did not expect that. 01:09:52.433 --> 01:09:53.893 I'm like speechless on this one. 01:09:53.893 --> 01:09:55.703 I am too. I did not expect that. 01:09:55.703 --> 01:09:59.873 And it looks so nice. They really leaned into the look of that era app and the toolkit. 01:10:01.238 --> 01:10:05.345 All right. Well, I want to tell you about a little nostalgia that I got going, 01:10:05.825 --> 01:10:09.145 and I'll link to this in the show notes. You don't even have to set up a VM 01:10:09.145 --> 01:10:12.848 to try it because the Internet Archive will run a VM in the web browser. 01:10:13.191 --> 01:10:19.265 It's an app called Dark Castle, a 1986 computer game for the Mac published by 01:10:19.265 --> 01:10:22.318 Silicon Beach Software, and then it was ported to other platforms later on. 01:10:22.531 --> 01:10:27.125 It's a platformer, a side-by-scrolling platformer, where a hero named Duncan, 01:10:27.805 --> 01:10:31.815 tries to make his way through an evil castle where there's a black knight and 01:10:31.815 --> 01:10:36.480 objects and bats he has to dodge and mice and rats and occasional puzzles. 01:10:37.026 --> 01:10:41.513 And as a young lad, I spent an enormous amount of time playing this game. 01:10:42.545 --> 01:10:46.115 It's very simple by today's standards, but it's actually, in my opinion, 01:10:46.115 --> 01:10:50.939 still holds up, still makes for a bit of a challenge, especially using the controls under a VM. 01:10:51.328 --> 01:10:52.895 So Dark Castle. 01:10:53.598 --> 01:10:58.905 Yeah, 1986. And you can play it right on archive.org or you can download the 01:10:58.905 --> 01:11:03.425 image file and then mount it as a CD-ROM and install it on your VM. 01:11:03.885 --> 01:11:04.215 Wow. 01:11:04.918 --> 01:11:08.605 I loved it, and it was really great to revisit that. Another game that I was 01:11:08.605 --> 01:11:13.590 surprised was so much fun to revisit is a 1987 hit called Crystal Quest, 01:11:14.078 --> 01:11:18.675 a mouse-driven game where the player controls a little circular spaceship and 01:11:18.675 --> 01:11:23.331 you got to shoot around the screen, collect crystals, blow up UFOs, 01:11:24.080 --> 01:11:26.454 and then, you know, go through tiny little obstacles. 01:11:26.756 --> 01:11:31.625 And it's funny how hard it is actually to control this game. 01:11:32.245 --> 01:11:38.203 I spent a lot of time dying, but you can play Crystal Quest again on archive.org or on the Mac VM. 01:11:41.059 --> 01:11:42.923 And relive the classic sounds. 01:11:46.510 --> 01:11:47.228 Oh! 01:11:48.268 --> 01:11:50.778 That stupid gate on the bottom, their portal or whatever. 01:11:50.908 --> 01:11:51.048 I know. 01:11:51.108 --> 01:11:54.804 The sharp edges, you gotta be right in the middle. 01:11:55.396 --> 01:11:59.718 And those weird noises that it makes. I mean, the games, they're definitely of an era. 01:11:59.718 --> 01:12:01.137 Crystal Quest is such a classic. 01:12:01.833 --> 01:12:05.148 There's so many on archive.org and other places, but Crystal Quest and Dark 01:12:05.148 --> 01:12:09.178 Castle were some of my favorites, so we'll link to those in the show notes. 01:12:09.178 --> 01:12:11.458 But we do have some gosh darn Linux picks, don't we? 01:12:11.592 --> 01:12:15.648 At least one. Yeah, just one. And this is actually a sneaky piece of feedback. 01:12:15.648 --> 01:12:22.924 So listener Alex wrote in, I'm the author of GoToTV, which Wes gave a nice shout out in episode 516. 01:12:23.242 --> 01:12:29.098 And a couple of months ago, I created MCP Beam. I've been listening to the podcast 01:12:29.098 --> 01:12:32.391 for a while, and you often talk about your media setup, so I thought you might like it. 01:12:32.595 --> 01:12:38.470 It lets you control Chromecast and DLNA receivers through an MCP-compatible agent. 01:12:38.777 --> 01:12:42.808 For example, you can tell your agent, play a random video from my library on the living room TV. 01:12:43.288 --> 01:12:47.762 Nice. Seek to 50%. Pause playback. It supports video, audio, and images. 01:12:48.423 --> 01:12:51.208 It takes me about an hour to get to work, and Linux Unplugged fits perfectly 01:12:51.208 --> 01:12:54.356 into that commute. Thanks for keeping me company along the way. 01:12:54.518 --> 01:12:54.928 Aw. 01:12:54.928 --> 01:13:00.155 That is so cool. MCPBeam, mostly written in 99.6% Go. 01:13:01.083 --> 01:13:05.520 And what a cool idea. And then you just get this set up in OpenCode. 01:13:05.520 --> 01:13:07.540 You open up OpenCode and just tell it to play the file. 01:13:07.540 --> 01:13:12.720 I will definitely give this a try. I've been using the CAT, C-A-T-T tool a fair 01:13:12.720 --> 01:13:18.400 amount to control my Chromecast. But this would just kind of skip one step, which sounds great. 01:13:18.400 --> 01:13:24.099 Now, eventually I'll get all of you boys deeply indoctrinated into the school of Home Assistant. 01:13:24.594 --> 01:13:27.241 But until then, it's all very useful. 01:13:27.878 --> 01:13:29.933 It's all very useful, but Home Assistant can control it all. 01:13:30.160 --> 01:13:34.760 Also, another shout-out to GoToTV, which is a fantastic app. 01:13:34.760 --> 01:13:37.909 A little cast media files to your smart TVs or Chromecast devices. 01:13:38.728 --> 01:13:42.687 A little for Linux. So we'll link to that, too, because that was very solid. 01:13:43.303 --> 01:13:45.090 That was good. Well, there you have it. 01:13:46.604 --> 01:13:51.610 It was nice to say goodbye to Apple Talk and go down memory lane one time for a little while. 01:13:51.610 --> 01:13:57.020 And at least remember, in a way, how awful networking used to be and how good 01:13:57.020 --> 01:14:02.608 it is now and how transparent TCPIP is now and how transparent it is to just 01:14:02.858 --> 01:14:05.520 talk between machines and systems and route out to the internet. 01:14:05.520 --> 01:14:09.410 And that we live in a world where you don't need an interbridge to have two 01:14:09.410 --> 01:14:12.710 totally different proprietary things, be able to talk to each other with another 01:14:12.710 --> 01:14:14.230 proprietary middleman in the middle. 01:14:14.729 --> 01:14:18.253 Well, you do in some worlds, but you don't in the topics we cover on this show. 01:14:18.891 --> 01:14:22.520 Wouldn't mind getting my hands on a 3Com InterBridge and setting up a little 01:14:22.520 --> 01:14:24.499 3Com InterBridge network or something. 01:14:24.911 --> 01:14:28.220 That'd be stupid. My kind of thing. You know, my kind of thing. 01:14:28.220 --> 01:14:30.379 Yeah, I mean, maybe once we're sponsored by Novell Network. 01:14:31.390 --> 01:14:34.754 Yeah, that'll come along any time now. We're big IPX guys. So, 01:14:34.754 --> 01:14:37.294 Wes, before we get out of here, you know, there's additional data, 01:14:37.294 --> 01:14:40.684 you might say. You could say rich details around the show in multiple different 01:14:40.684 --> 01:14:42.268 ways. Could you tell people about it? 01:14:42.865 --> 01:14:48.014 Yeah, well, if you open up an AppleTalk bidirectional connection to our RSS 01:14:48.014 --> 01:14:53.254 server and you set up your Mac to be able to handle JSON files correctly, 01:14:53.674 --> 01:14:56.628 you will be able to have access to our cloud chapters, yeah, 01:14:57.139 --> 01:15:01.764 which are timestamps into our podcasts that tell you when we talk about stuff at the segment level. 01:15:01.764 --> 01:15:05.214 But if you need more granularity and your system has enough RAM, 01:15:05.493 --> 01:15:09.452 you can even get an SRT or VTT file for subtitles. 01:15:09.835 --> 01:15:15.245 Oh, and don't forget that macOS 8.1 installation media comes with a free trial of AOL. 01:15:15.570 --> 01:15:19.504 You can get online and it's keyword LUP-LUG to join our mumble room, 01:15:19.504 --> 01:15:21.909 which gets together every Sunday at 10 a.m. Pacific. 01:15:22.466 --> 01:15:26.034 JBLive.tv is where to watch it, Sunday, 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 p.m. 01:15:26.034 --> 01:15:29.461 Eastern, jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar for your local time. 01:15:33.397 --> 01:15:36.607 Yeah, we got show notes. Yeah, we got links. 01:15:36.932 --> 01:15:42.533 Whichever you want, what's we talked about and all of that over at linuxunplugged.com slash 674. 01:15:42.992 --> 01:15:46.858 There's also some great shows over at jupiterbroadcasting.com. Go check those out. 01:15:47.415 --> 01:15:49.766 And why not check out the back catalog while you're over there? 01:15:50.056 --> 01:15:52.285 And then join us on a Sunday. 01:15:52.843 --> 01:15:55.914 Make it a Tuesday on a Sunday. Get yourself in the right headspace. 01:15:56.169 --> 01:15:58.526 That way, Monday feels like a Wednesday. 01:15:59.257 --> 01:16:03.464 And then go check our calendar again, because you never know when there might 01:16:03.464 --> 01:16:05.004 be a sneaky clanker stream coming up. 01:16:05.004 --> 01:16:08.374 Clanker. All right, everybody. Thanks so much for joining us on this week's 01:16:08.374 --> 01:16:10.142 episode of Your Unplugged Program. 01:16:10.374 --> 01:16:14.063 And we'll see you right back here next Sunday. Thank you. 01:17:08.237 --> 01:17:09.054 Thank you. Bye, Drew.